Hi everyone,
I want us to discuss the above topic and relate it with such concepts as (but not limited to);
Foreknowledge: what is the extent of God’s foreknowledge?
Predestination: What is it? Is it biblical? How does it relate to election, reprobation? Who are the elects? Are the elects constantly changing? Can the elects be reprobates and the reprobates elects? Can one change their destiny?
What is ‘freewill’? Can ‘freewill’ and predestination co-exist?
Can salvation be by works? What is Pelagianism?
What does The Bible mean when it says, salvation is not by works, is not by the law, it is by grace, through faith?(Rom.3:28;Eph.2:8,9;Titus 3:5 e.t.c)
Can the Lord change? Does He indeed know the end from the beginning?
Can the Holy Spirit leave the believer? If yes, under what circumstance(s). If due to sin, what sin? What is the extent of persistence in this sin?
When did this teaching that a believer can lose salvation start and who were the proponents?
Can we trust the reformers and those who followed after their teachings?
What is the reformed faith? What is Calvinism?
Can salvation be both by grace and by works?(Rom. 11: 5,6)

But without faith its impossible to please God. If u dont please God, God cannot please u by allowing u into his sight/kingdom. Abraham exemplified both faith&belief,then it was counted unto him as righteousness. Then bible now says except ur righteousness exceeds that of the pharises,u shall by no means enter into Gods kingdom.

The analogy gave shows how important faith is&how it can lead to righteousness&then Heaven.

Thanks a lot for your response, Toba. However, you have not answered my question; Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

Yes

Salvation is a continuous process. . , , , get saved and remain saved.

Toba.
Upon what grounds?Please elaborate.


Noetic.

If it is a process, how can anyone be saveD? No one could be saveD, until the end of the process,not to talk of ''remaining saveD''.

Is the gospel the means by which God saves sinners or the means by which He gives sinners an opportunity to save themselves?

Are believers kept in the faith by God or they keep themselves in the faith?

What is that righteousness which exceeds that of the Pharisees? Is it from within us or from without us?

5solas:

Noetic.

If it is a process, how can anyone be saveD? No one could be saveD, until the end of the process,not to talk of ''remaining saveD''.

u are saved by believing in the sacrifice of JC and doing as He commanded.
There is the possiblity of backsliding. . . .but the scriptures say that For as many as are led by the spirit they are the sons of God . . . .implying that the continuous tutelage of the HS makes one the son of God.

Yes . . .and No

From a human viewpoint-Yes

But from God's perspective-No

No. . . clearly what the bible says

5solas:


Is the gospel the means by which God saves sinners or the means by which He gives sinners an opportunity to save themselves?

Are believers kept in the faith by God or they keep themselves in the faith?

What is that righteousness which exceeds that of the Pharisees? Is it from within us or from without us?

@5solas

You're a barrelful of enquiries . . .

You dont half ask questions . . .

Is the gospel the means by which God saves sinners or the means by which He gives sinners an opportunity to save themselves?

To the above; both

Are believers kept in the faith by God or they keep themselves in the faith?

To the above; both as well - faith is a gift from above.

Remember "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." - Rom. 10:17

and

"For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves,
it is a gift of God; not as result of WORKS, so that no one may boast " - Ephesians 2:8-9

What is that righteousness which exceeds that of the Pharisees? Is it from within us or from without us?

To the above; the righteousness of God in Christ

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
- King James Bible

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God's righteousness might come about in us.
- International Standard Version

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
- New Living Translation

e36991.
I confess indeed to be full of  questions-so full of them, that I have not asked half of them. I will soon be making my assertions however. That Man was given an opportunity to save himself is often implied by many preachers in their presentation of the gospel, but it is against the whole tenor of scripture.
So also is the belief that a believer keeps himself in the faith.
I quite agree with you that the righteousness imputed to believers by faith in Christ is that righteouness which exceeds that of the Pharisees. It is also called the righteousness of faith     (Phil 3:9;Heb. 11:7 , )

Streetwize, aletheia,

You ought to elaborate so we can understand you better.

Noetic,


I wanted you to comment on the tense of the verb 'save'.Why are believers said to be saveD on believing, even when the process has barely begun.

Ephesian 2:8-9 . . O pari!!

A believer can not lose salvation so long as he is a believer. But if a man who has been born again denies Christ wilfully , he ceases to be a christian. A man cannot lose salvation by mistake. A man must have yielded to the devil to lose his salvation. For such person he must have known his left from right. he must have known the word of God well enough , he must have known the power of God. Then with all these knowledge he goes back to denyJesus as lord and blasphame against him.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Can you lose your life savings, is it possible?

5solas:


. . .  comment on the tense of the verb 'save'.

Why are believers said to be saved on believing, even when the process has barely begun.

@5solas

Because technically they are saved

and note "save" is a progressive verb . . .

Check this out - you're probably familiar with it

You're sailing on a cruise ship seeing the world

Out of the blues the ship breaks it hull and capsize

You end up in a raging ocean, clinging to debris, far away from dry land or the shore 

- no swimming skills, exposed to drowning, the elements, hypothermia, sharks etc

You are saved get picked up by a passing ship (i.e. offered your hand(s) to be saved pulled in)

Once on the ship if you want to remain saved reach dry land (i.e. shore) you'll have to refrain from jumping off it,

You'll have to endure (i.e. carry on through despite doubts etc) have faith in the captain and trust that the ship will make dry land

Matthew 10:22 below elucidates

. . . he who hath endured to the end, he shall be saved. - Young's Literal Translation

. . . he who holds out to the End--he will be saved - Weymouth New Testament

How would u describe solomons case did he loose salvation or not based on his biblical life ?

toba:

How would u describe solomons case did he loose salvation or not based on his biblical life ?

  How can you even imagine Solomon lost salvation (if even salvation can be lost)?
Is Ecclesiastes (written by him) not a book of remorse? Please note his tenses.
Ecc 1
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
12 ¶ I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecc. 2:
10 And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour.
11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.
And His Conclusion?
Ecc.12
  13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Streetwize.

Now you are crystal –clear. I assert with you based on Eph. 2:8,9 that:  A Believer CANNOT Lose Salvation.

Joagbaje.

You could also have quoted verses 10-20 of the same chapter of the same book (Hebrews):

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Joagbaje
And if you quote chapter 10:25-31 of the same book ,don’t forget to quote verses 32-39 of the same chapter and please reflect on verse 39 ,the conclusion.

Hebrews 10
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

e36991
Because technically they are saved

and note "save" is a progressive verb . . .

Check this out - you're probably familiar with it

You're sailing on a cruise ship seeing the world

Out of the blues the ship breaks it hull and capsize

You end up in a raging ocean, clinging to debris, far away from dry land or the shore 

- no swimming skills, exposed to drowning, the elements, hypothermia, sharks etc

You are saved get picked up by a passing ship (i.e. offered your hand(s) to be saved pulled in)

Once on the ship if you want to remain saved reach dry land (i.e. shore) you'll have to refrain from jumping off it,

You'll have to endure (i.e. carry on through despite doubts etc) have faith in the captain and trust that the ship will make dry land

Matthew 10:22 below elucidates

. . . he who hath endured to the end, he shall be saved. - Young's Literal Translation

. . . he who holds out to the End--he will be saved - Weymouth New Testament


Please do not ignore the tense of the verb ‘save’. Acts 16: 31 says:
‘And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house’. It is not said, ‘and thou shalt be in the process of being saved’ nor ‘and thou shalt have started the journey that leads to salvation’. Get my drift? Salvation is given to the believer on believing(before they have done good works) that it might be clearly shown that their salvation is not because of good works. Believers do not do good works to be saved, they do good woks because they are saved. Let our Lord sum it up in a related passage of that cited by you.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Why would those days be shorthened?
Can the elects (believers) be deceived?
Can the elects (believers) be other than saved? Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

Posted by Image123
Can you lose your life savings, is it possible?


Someone once told me something similar in this connection. He said, ‘that you have gotten admission to a school does not mean you have graduated, you still have to study’.

In the case of salvation the end is given before the means. If I should call it means .
It is not said to the believer,’do this to have salvation’, it is said, ‘since you have salvation , do this’.In this connection it  is said to the student,'since you have graduated,take your studies seriously!' Of course I can lose my life saving, but not my salvation.
I do not do good works to be saved; I am saved to do good works.

5solas
If you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. It's that simple.
If there's no danger, what's the point of warnings. The Bible is loaded with warnings, don't lose your soul.

Please let's have your scriptural basis. It's not that simple, because life savings and eternal life are not comparable. The very fact that salvation is by grace overthrows all arguments that salvation can be lost.Salvation does not go to the fittest .''So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy'' (Rom.9:16 ). God is the Author and Finisher of the faith of those that are called.(Heb.12:2,1 Cor.1:30).God and God alone saves man (monergism) not God and man working together (synergism).

5solas
If you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. It's that simple.
If there's no danger, what's the point of warnings. The Bible is loaded with warnings, don't lose your soul.
Posted on: April 16, 2010, 02:47 AMPosted by: 5solas

Image123

I said eternal life cannot be comparable to life savings. The reason is that you labour to get the latter. If you do not labour, you do not get any life savings, whereas you get eternal life before labouring and you are enjoined not to think your having eternal life is as a result of your labour,  because it isn't.(Eph.2:8,9.)

U guys are just meddling with semantics & grammar; don't complicate what you already know.

Salvation is not a process of being saved - when you accept, acknowledge & confess Jesus as your Lord & personal Saviour & believe that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved, just like that. God then declares you righteous (Rom. 10:9-10; 3:24-25) & all the promises made to Abraham & his descendants become yours - divine health, prosperity, long life, constant victory, etc

I don't understand what you mean by "losing salvation". If it was thru belief in the Lordship of Jesus u were saved, so also your denouncing of the Lordship of Jesus by either words or action will mean u've left God's protective cover & could be in danger of satan's weapons & ultimately hell if there's no repentance before Jesus comes/when your body perishes. That's what called backsliding

Pray for wisdom & revelation in the knowledge of God - Eph1:17-23.

ikhideman
I thank you for your response and seeing the issue as I do, that it is not a process.However I almost fell off my chair when you said you don’t understand what I mean about ‘losing salvation’.
However you turned round to imply that a believer stands the risk of losing salvation, if they stop believing. To be enquired into is if a believer can actually denounce Christ. If it is possible, how does it agree with Christ’s words concerning the elects(believers)?
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Why would those days be shorthened?
Can the elects (believers) be deceived?
Can the elects (believers) be other than saved? Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

5solas
Obviously, the days you refer to were shortened so that the 'elect' wouldn't be deceived. That means then that the possibility exists, or there'll be no purpose for shortening.
May I ask, some of the churches written to in Revelation 2&3, is it possible that some lost their salvation? Or the warnings were just standard procedure/protocol?

Phillipians 2:12

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

It is an ongoing process, you are not saved until you meet your death. Because at any time you can loose your salvation, and that will be by your own doing. We clearly have evidence of this, with people who were once Christians, but became muslim or atheist or anything else. We certainly cannot know if they will be saved at the end, that is entirely up to God's mercy.

But one has to work out their salvation in fear and trembling and not relax.

aletheia:

Yes . . .and No

From a human viewpoint-Yes

But from God's perspective-No

I agree!

There's no such thing as losing salvation.

Simply put, the summary of what I said is: if by confessing with your mouth & believing in your heart that Jesus is Lord you r saved, you would have to denounce Jesus from your heart to be become an unbeliever - and hence have d Devil as a father. Doesn't mean you "lost salvation."

Its all about believing. As someone wrote above, check out Hebrews 6:4-6.

These things shouldn't bother you as a believer; just study the Word more and as you do, always ask for Wisdom & revelation in the Knowledge of God. If you happen to meet anyone who says he was once a christian, and claims to be no longer one, all he has to do is rededicate his life back to God as in Rom.10:9-10. The Word of God is Our Guide as believers!!

Cheers,

Image123:

5solas
Obviously, the days you refer to were shortened so that the 'elect' wouldn't be deceived. That means then that the possibility exists, or there'll be no purpose for shortening.
May I ask, some of the churches written to in Revelation 2&3, is it possible that some lost their salvation? Or the warnings were just standard procedure/protocol?

What is the purpose for their being shortened? I answer with you: so that the elects (believers) wouldn't be deceived. Why is it necessary that they should not be deceived? So that they would be saved(not be lost). So the obvious conclusion is that salvation cannot be lost,especially as the situation that you have advanced that would cause it, cannot in fact, happen.

~Lady~:

Phillipians 2:12

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

It is an ongoing process, you are not saved until you meet your death. Because at any time you can loose your salvation, and that will be by your own doing. We clearly have evidence of this, with people who were once Christians, but became muslim or atheist or anything else. We certainly cannot know if they will be saved at the end, that is entirely up to God's mercy.

But one has to work out their salvation in fear and trembling and not relax.

Thanks for your response.
The next verse to the one you quoted says:
’For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure'.
It follows that even the power and enabling to do good works is of God.
That we are enjoined to work out our salvation with fear and trembling should not be interpreted to mean that we should work for our salvation. And that I say (and believe) that a believer cannot lose salvation does not  necessary mean that I believe, that good works are not necessary in the life of a believer. Good works are necessary! The issue then is, what do we then do them for? Some say for salvation and that I deny.

One has to  do good works but not with the intension that they are saved by them (good works).
We don't do good works to be saved but we are saved, to do good works.