₦airaland Forum

LegalWolf:
Ya Akhi, your premise is sound and your logic valid. Jazakumu LLAHU khairan

GreenCovering:
The chain of transmission of the Holy Quran throughout its revelation:
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala -> Angel Jibril (alaihissalam) -> Muhammad (sallAllahu alaihi wa sallam)

Hadith chain of collection:
Thousands of different narrators in hadith chains even in the ones labelled sahih

How can they have the same level of reliability?

We are talking about a Divine chain vs Human chains here.

AntiChristian:
Qu'ran is infallible! Are the people who preserved the Qu'ran not the same who preserved the ahadith?

And the followers of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam practised what they received from the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam to best of their ability.

So no need claiming Hadith is the collection about his followers.

Crayfish09:
Another interesting Hadith:


Al-Bukhaari (1880) and Muslim (1379) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “On the roads leading to Madinah there are angels and neither infections nor the Dajjaal will enter it.”

Abdoolbuster:
The truth is, Muslims don't have problem among themselves with the hadiths whether it is Sahih, hassan or d'aif. Howbeit, they usually run into trouble when people of other faith begin to scrutinize their books then they will start accepting and rejecting Hadiths. The OP talked about Quran contradicting hadith and vice versa with some examples. One AntiChristian said that the hadiths only explain what the Quran did not explicitly explain without any example. With this we can get it that Mr AntiChristian is performing Taqiya
That said, did the hadiths sometimes contradict the Quran, YES
where there are contradictions which should a muslim follow ? The Quran
Is the Quran 100% accurate? This has been a very big headache for scholars. What do I mean? If you accept that the Qur'an is 100 %accurate then there should never be any contradictions in it but we know that this is not the case.
In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.
1. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.
2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur’an?
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
“And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage, – that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued,” (9:29)

We can see from these two examples out of many that the Qur'an does contradict itself, meanwhile Muslims belive that the Qur'an is a perfectly preserved book in heaven before it was revealed. If it was preserved and perfect then why these contradictions?
Back to the hadiths, whenever a Muslim is boxed into a corner of logical questions he switched to the Quran is our only book by which we should be life. If you asked him about the hadiths he'll say many of them are not authentic therefore should be rejected. Hadiths really exposed Muhammad as a fraud and Muslims have a very serious problem defending him against the exposure in the hadiths.

Cc Christruth HendTime Antiislam RightChannel

RightChannel:
See, Quran contradicts itself but the problem with hadith is that it expose all the secrets of muhammad

Crayfish09:
No, they weren't. They were written by those who heard some people that heard from a scholar who heard from a scholar that claimed that the companions of the prophet said that the prophet said something.

Crayfish09:
These so-called Sahih Hadiths are no Sahihs. I wasn't so sure as at when I created this thread but now, I'm fully convinced.

rowrowland:
A true seeker of knowledge and truth won't say that, ever. Just this little conversation with one fellow on nairaland- and you're fully convinced that sahih hadith's are untrue?! Are you indeed really seeking truths? Hadith's are already classified- meaning that some people did a lot of jobs(filtering, collecting, and more). Now you have doubts: Islam is for a sane mind- start asking scholars of hadiths questions (with an open mind of course). Pls also note that difference in genuine opinions are actually a blessing to this ummah. What is haram or halal is clear.

Crayfish09:
Two things:

1) Allah says we should obey the prophet, but how can we obey him when SOME of the reports contain glaring lies against him?

2) I did not in any part of my post say that all Hadiths are lies, you are deliberately assuming that because you are getting emotional. If I have to accept every report about prophet Muhammad just because sayings have been attributed to hin, then YOU must also accept all other Hadiths (including the "weak" ones and those that were completely discarded).

AntiChristian:
Sahih Ahadith are as reliable as the Qur'an cos they were all transmitted by the Companions of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam.

You will have to meet those scholars that understands to explain your doubts to you.

Once you have it in your mind that the Ahadith are doubtful then know that you'll soon disbelieve in the Qur'an too as Allah refers to the Ahadith by saying in many places "Obey Allah and His messenger" i.e. we obey Allah by following the Qur'an and we obey the Messenger by following his examples.

Allah says:
Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (Qur'an 33:21)

The Ahadith are the records of his examples. So casting aspersions on them is also doing same on the Qur'an.

Sometimes the Qur'an gives the complete ruling and sometimes the hadith gives the complete ruling. At other times the ahadith explains the Qur'an and the Qur'an can also explain the ahadith. The Qur'an and Sunnah are what the Prophet left behind.

And there's no contradiction between an hadith and the Qur'an as the Prophet practice the Qur'an while alive.

Crayfish09:
Assalamu Alaikum brothers,

I'm asking this question because of the videos of an Islamic scholar, Sheikh Abduljabbar that I came across last week. He made some points about the hadiths being unreliable and even gave some proofs (which I extensively made a research on and found 90% to be true) and challenged northern scholars to prove him wrong or debate with him. So far, none of them has stepped forward to do so even though they have been condemning and cursing him. In fact, he was kicked out of Kano and barred from holding lectures.

If you still believe that all Sahih hadiths are authentic please give me your reasons. I am not here to argue with anyone but to learn. These are some of the things I find questionable about hadiths:

The collection process: Imam Buhari collected 500,000 narrations and found only 8,000 to be authentic. Looking at these numbers, it's very easy for the sound ones to be excluded and fake ones to be accepted.

Contradictions with the Qur'an: maybe it's my lack of understanding, but it looks to be violating some of the commandments of Allah. For example,

1)the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion while the Hadiths call for the killing of apostates.

2) The Quran specifies 100 lashes for Zina (with no distinction between adultery and fornication) while the Hadiths call for stoning to death.

3) The Quran justifies killing only on the grounds of murder or war while the hadiths do so on adultery, apostesy, homosexuality, blasphemy, and so one which are the main issues that the Kafirs use to condemn us.

4) The Qur'an encourages Muslims to refrain from approaching women (sexually) during their periods but the hadiths suggest so.

There are so many others that I noticed.


Contradictions within hadiths: you'll find "Sahih" hadith contradicting with "Sahih" from other scholars or even within the same collection. Take for example,

1)
- Hazrat Ibn Abbas said: Rasool (S) slept for a while – went to the Masjid and prayed (‘offered’ Namaaz) without Wudhu. (Bukhari, Kitabul Wudhu)

- The Sahaba of Rasool (S) used to ‘perform’ Namaaz without Wudhu after waking up from sleep. (Muslim with Fathil Mulhim pg 500)

2)

- Hazrat Usman said: If a man withdraws before ejaculation, let him wash the genitals and make Wudhu (No bath necessary). (Bukhari, vol 1 Kitabul Wudhu pg 164 Hadith 176)

- Bath becomes mandatory after penetration. (Muwatta pg 22)


3)


- Rasool (S) said, “Renew Wudhu after eating anything cooked on fire.” (Muslim vol 1 pg 486)

- BUT, Ibn Abbas says, “Rasoolullah ate a roasted goat shoulder and then prayed without ablution.” (Same vol 1 pg 488)

4)

- If someone passes in front of a praying person, stop him. If he doesn’t stop, kill him because he is Shayitaan. (Bukhari vol 1 pg 68)

- But: Abdullah Ibn Abbas said, “I rode a donkey to MINA. Rasoolullah (S) was leading the prayer. I passed before some praying ones and got off from the animal and joined the prayers. None objected. (Bukhari vol 1 pg 107)

Again, I came across many of such examples.


Lastly, the ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS HADITHS:

Many of them are absolutely insulting to our holy prophet Muhammad.

Some made narrations of him lying on his stomach while married women rubbed his back.

Some said he used to pee while standing.

Some talked about the sun traveling to prostrate before Allah everyday

Some said Moses sent prophet Muhammad back to Allah multiple times in order to have our salat reduced to 5

Some portrayed prophet Muhammad as a reckless killer

Some said pandemics can never reach Makkah and Madinah but Covid-19 proves otherwise.


Many of them are absolutely degrading to women. Some have grouped them with devils and animals.


Some condone rape and stealing (especially at times of war)



The list is just endless. If you have some logical explanations for these factors please do share with me. I have come to realize that most of the Islamic laws we have today lay much more emphasis on these hadiths rather than the Qur'an too.

NB: I don't completely disbelieve the hadiths. There are many beautiful ones that should be accepted even IF they didn't come from the prophet.

Abdoolbuster:
The truth is, Muslims don't...
1. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.

Cc Christruth HendTime Antiislam RightChannel

AlBaqir:
This is an excellent observation. Allow me to add my inputs as follows:

1. To the Muslim fundamentalists, we need to be crystal clear that doubting or questioning a particular hadith does not necessarily meant one doubts the Messenger of Allah; rather, the doubt is on what is attributed to him that no one could say 100% its from him.

For a fact, neither the Prophet nor his companions authenticate any of the hadith compilations. For example, Sahih al-Bukhari was compiled almost 200 years after the demise of Imam al-Bukhari from a 50-page manuscript where many passages were left blank. How it transformed into 9 to 10 volumes containing 6000+ ahadith is still a mystery.

You can read more: https://www.nairaland.com/3108197/wrote-sahih-bukhari-obviously-not


2. Authenticity of hadith:

Generally, there are two popular criteria to discern an authentic Hadith from false one: verification of the sanad (chain of transmission) and verification of the matn (content). Unfortunately, the former is 99% relied upon in judging the authenticity of Hadith while the latter is rarely used. This is the problem with Sahih al-Bukhari and sahih Muslim. All their respective ahadith are adjudged authentic based on the verification of their sanad but scholars disregard the matn of their ahadith. This is the reason why hadith will be classified as authentic while its matn opposed Quran and rationality blatantly.

Looking at the matn (content, text) of Hadith in line with overall Quranic injunction / message, historical facts or comparison with other Hadith that is widely reported is the best way to judge authenticity of Hadith. We have seen scholars who graded ahadith weak based on its sanad (chain of transmission) but authenticate the hadith based on its matn using aforementioned standards.

3. Sometimes, a hadith is half-reported (and that might makes it irrational) or a part of it is mistakenly heard leading to wrong meaning, or a part of the hadith is falsified, or interpolated. Here, scholars tried to sieve grain from chaff. However, I need to add that it is subjective to throw every hadith away because it does not fit into individual's understanding, and it is counterproductive to use empirical science to verify authenticity of hadith. This does not meant we should throw rationality and science away, both have been used many times to understand various ahadith.

4. When it comes to the fundamental Islamic messages and personality of the noble Prophet [peace be upon him and his progeny], the ONLY standard to judge the authenticity of any hadith on these two subjects irrespective of where it is documented is the holy Qur'an.

For example, Qur'an states emphatically that the Prophet had exalted and Sublime characters, and believers are enjoined to emulate him. If a so-called authentic Hadith describes him as a mean or base person, obviously such hadith is false despite its authentic tag. Another example is the age of Aishah when Prophet got married to her. In this case, no single hadith is attributed to the Prophet himself that his wife was 6 when he married her and consummated the marriage at 9. Verifying the hadith with history shows Aishah was between 19 - 21.


There are lot I intend to add but let me stop here for now.

Salaam alaykum.

AntiChristian:
Sahih Ahadith are as reliable as the Qur'an cos they were all transmitted by the Companions of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam.

You will have to meet those scholars that understands to explain your doubts to you.

Once you have it in your mind that the Ahadith are doubtful then know that you'll soon disbelieve in the Qur'an too as Allah refers to the Ahadith by saying in many places "Obey Allah and His messenger" i.e. we obey Allah by following the Qur'an and we obey the Messenger by following his examples.

Allah says:
Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (Qur'an 33:21)

The Ahadith are the records of his examples. So casting aspersions on them is also doing same on the Qur'an.

Sometimes the Qur'an gives the complete ruling and sometimes the hadith gives the complete ruling. At other times the ahadith explains the Qur'an and the Qur'an can also explain the ahadith. The Qur'an and Sunnah are what the Prophet left behind.

And there's no contradiction between an hadith and the Qur'an as the Prophet practice the Qur'an while alive.

AntiChristian:
Qu'ran is infallible! Are the people who preserved the Qu'ran not the same who preserved the ahadith?

And the followers of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam practised what they received from the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam to best of their ability.

So no need claiming Hadith is the collection about his followers.

Abdoolbuster:
LMAO @antiislam, @Hendtime come o Sombody is saying that the sayings of the prophet (saw) is causing wàhálà (shame) to Islam. Ọmọ x 1 trillion I no fit laugh alone

Crayfish09:
Unfortunately, some Muslims can go as far as calling you a Kafir because of this.

Crayfish09:
When I say Hadith, I'm referring to Sahih hadiths and yes, to even compare "Sahih" Hadiths with the Qur'an is an abomination because we are still talking about words ATRIBUTED to those who claimed to have heard the Sahaba saying something about what the prophet said.


I also clearly said that I do not reject the Hadiths but those that contradict/undermine the Qur'an.

Let's analyze this explanation of yours now.

In the first 2 verses, Allah says that the cost outweighs the benefit and that we should refrain from doing it before Salat. We can say the same about other sins of the world. For example, stealing has the benefit of worldly gains but it's bad. HOWEVER, THE VERSE DOES NOT IN ANY WAY TELL US TO DRINK unlike in the case of the Hadiths where one says IT'S FINE to do something and another says it's not.


I have many other ridiculous ones too. I know those that claimed pandemics can never enter Makkah and Madina but thanks to Corona, they have been proven to be false. There are also those that said the sun prostrate before Allah even though the Qur'an said a different thing. I know those that depicted Moses (AS) as the superior of prophet Muhammad and even suggested that he knows better than Allah (when the so-called 50 daily prayers were reduced to 5)

These so-called Sahih Hadiths are no Sahihs. I wasn't so sure as at when I created this thread but now, I'm fully convinced.

nisai:
What would you say about keeping beard and wearing non-below-ankle trousers? Compulsory or optional?

AntiChristian:
Sahih Ahadith are as reliable as the Qur'an cos they were all transmitted by the Companions of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam.

You will have to meet those scholars that understands to explain your doubts to you.

Once you have it in your mind that the Ahadith are doubtful then know that you'll soon disbelieve in the Qur'an too as Allah refers to the Ahadith by saying in many places "Obey Allah and His messenger" i.e. we obey Allah by following the Qur'an and we obey the Messenger by following his examples.

Allah says:
Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (Qur'an 33:21)

The Ahadith are the records of his examples. So casting aspersions on them is also doing same on the Qur'an.

Sometimes the Qur'an gives the complete ruling and sometimes the hadith gives the complete ruling. At other times the ahadith explains the Qur'an and the Qur'an can also explain the ahadith. The Qur'an and Sunnah are what the Prophet left behind.

And there's no contradiction between an hadith and the Qur'an as the Prophet practice the Qur'an while alive.

falopey:
Hadiths were written by Muhammed’s close companions, those that walked, ate and spoke with him. You that was born yesterday want to disapprove the first hand account of the followers of the prophet

Alhajiemeritus:
I'd like to point out something to you, Hadith isn't just the collections about the prophet, it's also collections about the followers.
Having said that, it's important for everyone to understand the Science of Hadith. Get the knowledge of Hadith.
Usulul Hadith most importantly.
I won't tell you whether all Sahih Hadiths are reliable or not, but I know only the Quran is infallible

Crayfish09:
Most of the hadiths I mentioned were actually attributed to the prophet but yes, I agree that the Qur'an is 100% accurate

AntiChristian:
I think I categorically mentioned "Sahih hadith" and not just Hadith/Ahadith! You need to read more in between the lines. Sahih means authentic. Whatever is thrown away is not Sahih.

How many of the authentic ones have you worked on? I think you should answer what the Qur'an meant by saying "obey Allah and His messenger" several times?




I have told you to move closer to Scholars who can explain the ahadith to you in details.

I will give you a similitude in the Qur'an with three verses about intoxicants (Wine, etc.) , the first two permits it while the last one forbids it. Is there any contradiction in them?

They ask you about wine (khamr) and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit."
Qur'an 2:219

"O you who acknowledge, Do not go near prayer, (Salat) while you are stupified (under influence), until you know what you are saying"
Qur'an 4:43

O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants (khamr), gambling, [sacrificing on] stone altars [to other than God], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.
Qur'an 5:90

Sometimes, a verse is explained by another verse while at other times a verse may abrogate another verse! This happens many times in the Qur'an and hadith. You need to search for the knowledge.

AlBaqir:
https://www.nairaland.com/3326766/issue-dressings-below-ankles-men