₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
The Bible mentioned the name of only two angels "Michael and Gabriel", Gabriel declared to Zachariah "I am Gabriel who always stand before God!
So some angels are closer to God than others therefore Michael (the Archangel) must be the closest!

Wisdom is another title given to the seed @ Genesis 3:15 that's why Jesus could say wisdom is justified by her offsprings! Luke 7:35

answered!

What's the meaning of this?
Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time Proverbs 8:30 (NWT)


Satan is the ringleader of all rebellious children both in the spirit realms and on earth so rebellion began in the garden of Eden! Genesis 3:1-6

The woman connotes God's loyal spirit sons and her child was born when Michael decided to stand for the salvation of mankind! Genesis 3:15 compare to Revelations 12:1-3

Michael will stand for the SALVATION of God's people, and due to his successful mission there will be a time of trouble, many people will be delivered (saved) all those whose names are WRITTEN in the book.
Please according to Bible prophecies, whose activities apart from Jesus is going to fulfil that? Matthew 24:3-13

Isaiah spoke so much but most of his utterances were prophetical referring to the promised Messiah. For instance @ Isaiah 61:1 Isaiah was talking about himself but Jesus later told his contemporaries that that particular prophesy is fulfilled in his own day! Luke 4:17-21
So if you don't meditate thoroughly on Isaiah's prophecies had later fulfilment in the lifetime of the promised Messiah!

Let's settle the ones at hand first before shifting to another segment!

Splattering Bible verses does not amount to giving cogent answers to questions.

Proverbs 8 DID NOT start from verse 31.
Look carefully again from verse 1. It is wisdom personified. You can't pluck out one verse to the disregard of the entire portion.

See again what I earlier posted:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 1:3 NIV

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
Hebrews 1:5 NIV

But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8 NIV

These CLEARLY show that Jesus is more than an angelic being, no matter the ranking. He is here portrayed as God.

In Philippians 2:6 we are told that his very nature is God, not of a creature which angels are:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
Philippians 2:6 NIV

The quiz I gave is not another segment; it is still relevant to the matter at hand, but you appear to have missed the import of it. Johnw47 caught it.

sagenaija:
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Splattering Bible verses does not amount to giving cogent answers to questions.

Proverbs 8 DID NOT start from verse 31.
Look carefully again from verse 1. It is wisdom personified. You can't pluck out one verse to the disregard of the entire portion.

I think you need to study the gospel once again before embarking on this journey because the gospel writers quoted verses from the OT but if you want to judge matters from this viewpoint then you will rubbish their accounts altogether!
For instance: Try to read Isaiah chapter 9 from verses 1-21, first assimilate then explain how verse 6-7 could be extracted as a prophecy about Jesus Christ!

See again what I earlier posted:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 1:3 NIV

All the angels possess exactly the same quality the only difference is that one of them volunteered to become a lesser being (human) and experience all the troubles we do encounter, that's why he was GIVEN a position higher and loftier than the others.
Ordinarily a first born child has nothing more than the others apart from experience and that's what Jesus said at Proverbs 8:22-31.
Apart from that he is just one of the sons of God in heaven (angels)

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
Hebrews 1:5 NIV

This verse is self explanatory. God only introduced one supernatural human as His son to mankind {Matthew 17:5} so we should not listen to contrary opinion anybody says be it an Apostle or even an angel {Galatians 1:8} that's the import of the verse you're quoting. Apart from the Almighty God all His sons are angels including the first born!

But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.Hebrews 1:8 NIV

God gave Jesus His throne just as Israelites Kings were sitting on God's throne, remember God is the King and He chooses whoever He wants. Jesus was chosen because he laid down his life for righteousness so the throne belongs to him and the 144,000 born again Christians who also suffered for the same course {Revelations 3:21} it doesn't belong to him to choose who sits on that throne with him rather his father selects the co-rulers coming to sit with Jesus on that throne! Matthew 20:20-23

These CLEARLY show that Jesus is more than an angelic being, no matter the ranking. He is here portrayed as God.
In Philippians 2:6 we are told that his very nature is God, not of a creature which angels are: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
Philippians 2:6 NIV

You're adding your own meaning to it!
Satan is an angel (spirit son of God) and he decided to make himself equal to God by demanding the worship that rightfully belongs to his father. Luke 4:5-8
Jesus on the other hand remain obedient even when his father asked him to do what Jesus found unpalatable {Luke 22:42} that's the import of the verse you're quoting!

The quiz I gave is not another segment; it is still relevant to the matter at hand, but you appear to have missed the import of it. Johnw47 caught it.

Until we are through with Michael's case!

MaxInDHouse:
I think you need to study the gospel once again before embarking on this journey because the gospel writers quoted verses from the OT but if you want to judge matters from this viewpoint then you will rubbish their accounts altogether!
For instance: Try to read Isaiah chapter 9 from verses 1-21, first assimilate then explain how verse 6-7 could be extracted as a prophecy about Jesus Christ!

All the angels possess exactly the same quality the only difference is that one of them volunteered to become a lesser being (human) and experience all the troubles we do encounter, that's why he was GIVEN a position higher and loftier than the others.
Ordinarily a first born child has nothing more than the others apart from experience and that's what Jesus said at Proverbs 8:22-31.
Apart from that he is just one of the sons of God in heaven (angels)

This verse is self explanatory. God only introduced one supernatural human as His son to mankind {Matthew 17:5} so we should not listen to contrary opinion anybody says be it an Apostle or even an angel {Galatians 1:8} that's the import of the verse you're quoting. Apart from the Almighty God all His sons are angels including the first born!

God gave Jesus His throne just as Israelites Kings were sitting on God's throne, remember God is the King and He chooses whoever He wants. Jesus was chosen because he laid down his life for righteousness so the throne belongs to him and the 144,000 born again Christians who also suffered for the same course {Revelations 3:21} it doesn't belong to him to choose who sits on that throne with him rather his father selects the co-rulers coming to sit with Jesus on that throne! Matthew 20:20-23

You're adding your own meaning to it!
Satan is an angel (spirit son of God) and he decided to make himself equal to God by demanding the worship that rightfully belongs to his father. Luke 4:5-8
Jesus on the other hand remain obedient even when his father asked him to do what Jesus found unpalatable {Luke 22:42} that's the import of the verse you're quoting!

Until we are through with Michael's case!

Hebrews 1:3 says that the Son is the exact representation of God's being. And to that you claim:

All the angels possess exactly the same quality ......

Are you saying that all angels are the exact representation of God's being?

Hebrews 1:5 says "For to which of the angels did God ever say ...". The answer to this rhetoric question is a clear 'None'. In other words God never said what he said here to ANY angel. Notice that the question says "... to which of the angels...". So, every angel is covered. Nothing there says what you claim that:
"all His sons are angels including the first born!". The verse is saying that God never said what he said here to his Son to any angel. Where did you see "all His sons are angels" in that verse?
You add your own dogma to verses of Scripture and you accuse others of doing so.

In Phil. 2:6 we are told that Jesus' very nature is God. How do you explain that?

sagenaija:
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Hebrews 1:3 says that the Son is the exact representation of God's being. And to that you claim:

Are you saying that all angels are the exact representation of God's being?

Hebrews 1:5 says "For to which of the angels did God ever say ...". The answer to this rhetoric question is a clear 'None'. In other words God never said what he said here to ANY angel. Notice that the question says "... to which of the angels...". So, every angel is covered. Nothing there says what you claim that:
"all His sons are angels including the first born!". The verse is saying that God never said what he said here to his Son to any angel. Where did you see "all His sons are angels" in that verse?
You add your own dogma to verses of Scripture and you accuse others of doing so.

In Phil. 2:6 we are told that Jesus' very nature is God. How do you explain that?

YES!

Because they're all spirit beings like God.
The only thing that makes Michael more experienced than them all is because he is the first born {Colossians 1:15} and after spending more time with his father than any of his brothers he has learnt so much and come to imitate his father in all things {John 8:29} so when he said "i and the father are one" {John 10:30} he simply means whatever he tells us about his father's attributes, likes and dislikes is accurate but they are both different persons that's why he could think differently begging his father to consider his feelings! Luke 22:42

So he's just one of the angels but he has spent more time with his father than all his brothers {Proverbs 8:30} nothing more!

When you guys read the Bible instead of meditating thoroughly before concluding you just look for supporting opinions from here and there!

@ Hebrews 1:5

For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

This is just a warning to all the angels not to speak to any human again because Jesus is the one and only son (out of all the angels) God introduced to mankind as His spokesman! Hebrews 1:1-2

That's the import of the verse you keep quoting and repeating!

sagenaija:
I believe its perfectly possible for members of the Godhead to share.
The pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus does not make him Archangel Michael. The book of Hebrews makes us to see that he is superior to every angelic being.

Before nko ?
Which angel do you expect to be superior to the angel of the Lord?


At Daniel 10:13 and Genesis 4:19, what is the meaning of the Hebrew lexicon 259 "one of/ the one "?

Answer : The first, the senior, the Head of angels leading them to Victory.

@ Daniel 10:13, Joshua 5:13-14,Matthew 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-9, Revelation 12:7-9.
Do you roger that?

MaxInDHouse:
When you guys read the Bible instead of meditating thoroughly before concluding you just look for supporting opinions from here and there!

@ Hebrews 1:5

For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

This is just a warning to all the angels not to speak to any human again because Jesus is the one and only son (out of all the angels) God introduced to mankind as His spokesman! Hebrews 1:1-2

That's the import of the verse you keep quoting and repeating!

Revelation 3:12,21 Jesus Sonship in the spiritual realm inconveniences Trinitarians.

Genesis 16:7 & Job 2:1, "angel of the Lord " means son of God the Lord ( JEHOVAH).
When they read Hebrews 1:5 they DECEIVE themselves that in heaven Jesus is not son (angel) of God.
They forget that his title Archangel befits Jesus,the Head Angel superior to all Angels.

Janosky:
Revelation 3:12,21 Jesus Sonship in the spiritual realm inconveniences Trinitarians.

Genesis 16:7 & Job 2:1, "angel of the Lord " means son of God the Lord ( JEHOVAH).
When they read Hebrews 1:5 they DECEIVE themselves that in heaven Jesus is not son (angel) of God.
They forget that his title Archangel befits Jesus,the Head Angel superior to all Angels.

They want to argue but we know what is in the minds of anyone who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God: TRINITY

So even after reading in the Bible that Jesus himself declared that he is God's son and angels are also God's sons one now wonders what could be their problem that's blurring their senses from knowing that the firstborn of all creations is also an angel (son of God)

MaxInDHouse:
YES!

Because they're all spirit beings like God.
The only thing that makes Michael more experienced than them all is because he is the first born {Colossians 1:15} and after spending more time with his father than any of his brothers he has learnt so much and come to imitate his father in all things {John 8:29} so when he said "i and the father are one" {John 10:30} he simply means whatever he tells us about his father's attributes, likes and dislikes is accurate but they are both different persons that's why he could think differently begging his father to consider his feelings! Luke 22:42

So he's just one of the angels but he has spent more time with his father than all his brothers {Proverbs 8:30} nothing more!

In order not to be like a parrot repeating myself let me share these additional things:
The Son, according to Hebrews, laid the foundations of the earth, and and the heavens are the works of his hands. Archangel Michael is NOWHERE said to be the one who did these. The Bible is so EMPHATIC about the fact that "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3 NIV
Did you note that WITHOUT HIM nothing was made that has been made. In other words, no creation (including creatures) came into existence without Jesus's doing. Is Archangel Michael a created being? If so, he couldn't have been the creator.

Jesus is also referred to as the LAMB OF GOD, but he is not a physical lamb and shared no physical characteristic with that animal. That expression had to do with the mission he had to accomplish.
"Lamb" references a creature but does that title of Jesus - Lamb of God - make him a physical Lamb?
Do you believe that Jesus shares any physical characteristics with the lamb?

These are what you said severally:

the angels are ranked by their closeness to the highest Authority so the closest of them all is Michael that's why he is called the Archangel

And then this:

All the angels possess exactly the same quality the only difference is that one of them volunteered to become a lesser being (human) and experience all the troubles we do encounter, that's why he was GIVEN a position higher and loftier than the others.

So, is it accomplishment, LIKE I SAID, or is it closeness to God? Remember that I had said "that the ranking of the angels was as a result of their stand for God and accomplishment as a result."

When you said 'Yes' to this my question: Are you saying that all angels are the exact representation of God's being? I wonder if you really know the attributes of God. For example, God is omniscient. Are all angels omniscient?

Your explanation of Jesus' "i and the father are one" statement is interesting! How come those who heard him didn't see it like you did? How come they picked up stones to stone him?

Equally interesting is your take on Hebrews 1:5:
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

You said:

This is just a warning to all the angels not to speak to any human again because Jesus is the one and only son (out of all the angels) God introduced to mankind as His spokesman! Hebrews 1:1-2

Did other angels speak to men after Jesus' ascension to heaven? The answer is a resounding 'Yes!'. This CLEARLY debunks this your position. And if this is so, don't you think you may be wrong on your other views?

You made many statements you couldn't substantiate from the Bible such as:
1.

Out of all the creatures God used Michael to make humans are Michael's choicest so he loves humans to a fault {Proverbs 8:31} after one of the first set of angels rebelled against God Michael began working with his father on how to redeem innocent mankind that is Adam's descendants who were never part of the rebellion in the garden of Eden.
Where in Scripture is it said that "Michael started working with his father on how to redeem innocent (sic!!!) mankind"?
To redeem those who are innocent?

So, some of mankind were 'part of' the rebellion in the Garden of Eden and others were not?
Where are we told that Michael made human beings?

2.

So the only way out is for an angel to be transformed into human then we can have a perfect human through that process, this one will serve that purpose.

Where in the Bible did it say an angel had to be 'transformed into human' in order to save man?

3.

So some angels are closer to God than others therefore Michael (the Archangel) must be the closest!

Your mere conjecture. Where in the Bible does it say this?

4.

The woman connotes God's loyal spirit sons and her child was born when Michael decided to stand for the salvation of mankind! Genesis 3:15 compare to Revelations 12:1-3

The woman sinned first - 1 Timothy 2:14. So, where did you get this your statement from? The Bible?


At the end of the day it turns out that you went against all these that you gave as conditions for our discussion.
Note that we were not to bring in any idea, opinion, dogma or phrase that doesn't appear in God's word!
You used your dogmas and opinions cooked up in the name of whatever spirit to make your points and you did not rely solely on the facts we find in the Bible!

sagenaija:
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In order not to be like a parrot repeating myself let me share these additional things:
The Son, according to Hebrews, laid the foundations of the earth, and and the heavens are the works of his hands. Archangel Michael is NOWHERE said to be the one who did these. The Bible is so EMPHATIC about the fact that "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3 NIV
Did you note that WITHOUT HIM nothing was made that has been made. In other words, no creation (including creatures) came into existence without Jesus's doing. Is Archangel Michael a created being? If so, he couldn't have been the creator.

The Bible never said Archangel Michael is or is not the person in question so your persistence in ruling him out doesn't work!
The one who created all things was (working) with God that's what the scriptures said!
John 1:1, Proverbs 8:30
So don't say it couldn't be the Archangel Michael because the Bible revealed that this is the angel standing for the salvation of mankind! Daniel 12:1-3

Jesus is also referred to as the LAMB OF GOD, but he is not a physical lamb and shared no physical characteristic with that animal. That expression had to do with the mission he had to accomplish.
"Lamb" references a creature but does that title of Jesus - Lamb of God - make him a physical Lamb?
Do you believe that Jesus shares any physical characteristics with the lamb?

He was slaughtered because of our sin {Isaiah 53:5} so it's clear that he could be referred to as the lamb of God because only God can give us such a sacrificial lamb! John 3:16

These are what you said severally:
And then this:
So, is it accomplishment, LIKE I SAID, or is it closeness to God? Remember that I had said "that the ranking of the angels was as a result of their stand for God and accomplishment as a result."
When you said 'Yes' to this my question: Are you saying that all angels are the exact representation of God's being? I wonder if you really know the attributes of God. For example, God is omniscient. Are all angels omniscient?

God never claim to be omniscient.
That's a religious dogma!
He knows only what He focus His attention on not everything happening otherwise he couldn't have said to Abraham:

Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it! Genesis 18:20-21

Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” Genesis 22:12
Does it make sense to you when someone says the one speaking in those verses is OMNISCIENT the way you people say?

Your explanation of Jesus' "i and the father are one" statement is interesting! How come those who heard him didn't see it like you did? How come they picked up stones to stone him?
Equally interesting is your take on Hebrews 1:5:
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
You said:
Did other angels speak to men after Jesus' ascension to heaven? The answer is a resounding 'Yes!'. This CLEARLY debunks this your position. And if this is so, don't you think you may be wrong on your other views?

The Hebrews like most religionists today don't want anyone to claim he knows everything about God that's why they wanted to kill Jesus.
Of course angels spoke with men they never contradict Jesus' orders

At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy! Revelations 19:10
So the Apostles and angels continue speaking until the Bible was completed but they never contradicted what Jesus said {Galatians 1:8} that's what i'm saying please get me right!

You made many statements you couldn't substantiate from the Bible such as:
1. So, some of mankind were 'part of' the rebellion in the Garden of Eden and others were not?
Where are we told that Michael made human beings?
2. Where in the Bible did it say an angel had to be 'transformed into human' in order to save man?
3. Your mere conjecture. Where in the Bible does it say this?
4. The woman sinned first - 1 Timothy 2:14. So, where did you get this your statement from? The Bible?

(1) Adam and Eve were fully involved in the rebellion but their descendants weren't there!
(2 & 3) The only begotten son of God was transformed that's why he could say:

He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. John 8:23

(4) Sacred secrets!
This shows that you're not even reading the cited texts please if you're not interested in the discussion let me know because i don't have any time to waste!
When God said:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” Genesis 3:15

He wasn't talking about Eve, rather God was talking about a symbolic woman that will produce the promised Messiah! Revelations 12:1-4
So read each text before replying otherwise i'll take you for a joke!

At the end of the day it turns out that you went against all these that you gave as conditions for our discussion.
Note that we were not to bring in any idea, opinion, dogma or phrase that doesn't appear in God's word!
You used your dogmas and opinions cooked up in the name of whatever spirit to make your points and you did not rely solely on the facts we find in the Bible!

If you read the cited texts you could have given a better Interpretation of what i'm saying but it's obvious you never care to check the cited text. I'm not bringing in any dogma whatever i say is backed by the quoted and cited scriptures!

MaxInDHouse:
The Bible never said Archangel Michael is or is not the person in question so your persistence in ruling him out doesn't work!
The one who created all things was (working) with God that's what the scriptures said!
John 1:1, Proverbs 8:30
So don't say it couldn't be the Archangel Michael because the Bible revealed that this is the angel standing for the salvation of mankind! Daniel 12:1-3

He was slaughtered because of our sin {Isaiah 53:5} so it's clear that he could be referred to as the lamb of God because only God can give us such a sacrificial lamb! John 3:16

God never claim to be omniscient.
That's a religious dogma!
He knows only what He focus His attention on not everything happening otherwise he couldn't have said to Abraham:

Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it! Genesis 18:20-21

Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” Genesis 22:12
Does it make sense to you when someone says the one speaking in those verses is OMNISCIENT the way you people say?

The Hebrews like most religionists today don't want anyone to claim he knows everything about God that's why they wanted to kill Jesus.
Of course angels spoke with men they never contradict Jesus' orders

At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy! Revelations 19:10
So the Apostles and angels continue speaking until the Bible was completed but they never contradicted what Jesus said {Galatians 1:8} that's what i'm saying please get me right!

(1) Adam and Eve were fully involved in the rebellion but their descendants weren't there!
(2 & 3) The only begotten son of God was transformed that's why he could say:

He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. John 8:23

(4) Sacred secrets!
This shows that you're not even reading the cited texts please if you're not interested in the discussion let me know because i don't have any time to waste!
When God said:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” Genesis 3:15

He wasn't talking about Eve, rather God was talking about a symbolic woman that will produce the promised Messiah! Revelations 12:1-4
So read each text before replying otherwise i'll take you for a joke!

If you read the cited texts you could have given a better Interpretation of what i'm saying but it's obvious you never care to check the cited text. I'm not bringing in any dogma whatever i say is backed by the quoted and cited scriptures!

I'm amazed at how you're trying to wriggle out of directly answering questions.
You EVADE some of the things I put up and then go on to accuse one of not reading the texts you present. Because I think you have not DIRECTLY answered my questions let me make them clearer to you and others reading us in this thread.

In order not to 'misunderstand' ourselves let's take this approach; I'll put numbers on my points, and I expect you to respond using the same numbering.

1. Did the Bible say anywhere that a creature other than God created all we have in the universe? (Note: Here I'm talking about CREATION, not salvation).

2. Do you believe that Jesus shares ANY PHYSICAL characteristics with the animal lamb? (Note: I'm asking about physical characteristics here not a functional one. This is because while you claim that "the angel of Jehovah" is an angel, albeit in a higher capacity, you have refused to apply the same thinking to "the Lamb of God " designation for Jesus. You focussed on his function as a lamb and said "he could be referred to as the lamb of God" because of his sacrificial work. Why don't you then think he could be referred as the angel of Jehovah because of his function?)

3. With the following verses do you still claim that GOD IS NOT OMNISCIENT?
Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20 - .... God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.
Isaiah 40:28 - Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
Jeremiah 16:17 - My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes.
Psalm 33:13-15 -
From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth— he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
(Note: If your God is not all knowing maybe you have an outer space creature as your god. The passages you quoted are Anthropopathisms so they make sense to me; I hope you know what that means).

4. You still failed here to admit you error. Is it pride?
You CLEARLY said:

This is just a warning to all the angels not to speak to any human again because Jesus is the one and only son (out of all the angels) God introduced to mankind as his spokesman!

Those are all your words, including the exclamation mark. It was in response to the Hebrews portion.
And you make a bold faced 360 degree turn to now say:

Of course angels spoke with men ....

And this:

So the Apostles and angels continue speaking until the Bible was completed ...

Are you for real? You didn't even attempt to apologise for your error. Hey man!

5. When Adam and Eve sinned did they acquire a sin nature that got passed down to all their progeny - according to Scripture? When I say you use your dogma (which you accuse others of) to look at and seek to interpret Scripture, this is one right here.

Jesus saying in John 8 you quoted that 'I am from the realms above' makes no reference to an angel being 'transformed into human' like you claimed.
Give us a more explicit reference.
You also have not provided a reference to show that Archangel Michael 'must be the closest!' to God. Where does the Bible say so?

6. We didn't know that you were into 'Sacred secrets!'. Should we congratulate you for having these secrets?
That the 'seed of the woman' is the promised Messiah is no secret to a basic level student of Scripture.
You had said that:

The woman connotes God's loyal spirit sons .......

This was in response to my post that both Adam and Eve sinned and through them sin entered the world after which God then talked about the seed of the woman, and that nothing in Scriptures suggests even remotely that, like you claimed

the only way out is for an angel to be transformed into human

So that we don't miss out the point and begin to look at who has sacred secrets or not, the issue is still this:
Your claim that "Michael began working with his father on how to redeem innocent mankind that is Adam's descendants who were never part of the rebellion in the Garden of Eden" is simply a conjecture. According to the Bible both Adam and Eve sinned. Adam and Eve began to have descendants ONLY AFTER their disobedience which resulted in the fall of mankind. Consequently, all their progeny had acquired sin nature. The Bible says 'In Adam all die'. All means ALL!
The issue is still this: Where in all your renditions of sacred secrets did the Bible say that Archangel Michael was going to become a man in order to redeem mankind?
(Note: In Rev. 12 Michael and his angels fought the dragon. This is a post resurrection event. And the name Jesus was mentioned in that portion of the Bible. There was no indication that the reference was to the same person Michaelmentionedearlierin the chapter).

Now, over to you.

sagenaija:
I'm amazed at how you're trying to wriggle out of directly answering questions.
You EVADE some of the things I put up and then go on to accuse one of not reading the texts you present. Because I think you have not DIRECTLY answered my questions let me make them clearer to you and others reading us in this thread.

In order not to 'misunderstand' ourselves let's take this approach; I'll put numbers on my points, and I expect you to respond using the same numbering.

1. Did the Bible say anywhere that a creature other than God created all we have in the universe? (Note: Here I'm talking about CREATION, not salvation).

2. Do you believe that Jesus shares ANY PHYSICAL characteristics with the animal lamb? (Note: I'm asking about physical characteristics here not a functional one. This is because while you claim that "the angel of Jehovah" is an angel, albeit in a higher capacity, you have refused to apply the same thinking to "the Lamb of God " designation for Jesus. You focussed on his function as a lamb and said "he could be referred to as the lamb of God" because of his sacrificial work. Why don't you then think he could be referred as the angel of Jehovah because of his function?)

3. With the following verses do you still claim that GOD IS NOT OMNISCIENT?
Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20 - .... God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.
Isaiah 40:28 - Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
Jeremiah 16:17 - My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes.
Psalm 33:13-15 -
From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth— he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
(Note: If your God is not all knowing maybe you have an outer space creature as your god. The passages you quoted are Anthropopathisms so they make sense to me; I hope you know what that means).

4. You still failed here to admit you error. Is it pride?
You CLEARLY said:

Those are all your words, including the exclamation mark. It was in response to the Hebrews portion.
And you make a bold faced 360 degree turn to now say:

And this:

Are you for real? You didn't even attempt to apologise for your error. Hey man!

5. When Adam and Eve sinned did they acquire a sin nature that got passed down to all their progeny - according to Scripture? When I say you use your dogma (which you accuse others of) to look at and seek to interpret Scripture, this is one right here.

Jesus saying in John 8 you quoted that 'I am from the realms above' makes no reference to an angel being 'transformed into human' like you claimed.
Give us a more explicit reference.
You also have not provided a reference to show that Archangel Michael 'must be the closest!' to God. Where does the Bible say so?

6. We didn't know that you were into 'Sacred secrets!'. Should we congratulate you for having these secrets?
That the 'seed of the woman' is the promised Messiah is no secret to a basic level student of Scripture.
You had said that:

This was in response to my post that both Adam and Eve sinned and through them sin entered the world after which God then talked about the seed of the woman, and that nothing in Scriptures suggests even remotely that, like you claimed

So that we don't miss out the point and begin to look at who has sacred secrets or not, the issue is still this:
Your claim that "Michael began working with his father on how to redeem innocent mankind that is Adam's descendants who were never part of the rebellion in the Garden of Eden" is simply a conjecture. According to the Bible both Adam and Eve sinned. Adam and Eve began to have descendants ONLY AFTER their disobedience which resulted in the fall of mankind. Consequently, all their progeny had acquired sin nature. The Bible says 'In Adam all die'. All means ALL!
The issue is still this: Where in all your renditions of sacred secrets did the Bible say that Archangel Michael was going to become a man in order to redeem mankind?
(Note: In Rev. 12 Michael and his angels fought the dragon. This is a post resurrection event. And the name Jesus was mentioned in that portion of the Bible. There was no indication that the reference was to the same person Michaelmentionedearlierin the chapter).

Now, over to you.

You keep rephrasing the questions, there's just two questions in all:
© Whether God is omniscient.
© Bible never said Jesus is Archangel Michael.

For the first question i told you that God only focus on His own program while angels are giving Him reports of other places, this angels are the creatures serving as eyes to Him in all other parts of the earth {Ezekiel 10:12} while He concentrate on the lineage of Abraham!

The second question i told you that apart from God who is not an angel all other spirits are angels (including Jesus) so if you have anything to prove that there is someone else with God who is not one of God's sons (angels) go ahead and present your evidence.
The Bible says that someone was with God in the beginning {John 1:1-2} and that the person was working with Him during creation as a master craftman {Proverbs 8:22-30} i don't see anything else arguable in that.

It's your turn to present your proof that God never employed anyone to work with Him during creation.

Remember that the technological advancement of the earth today is man's doing but who employed man to continue the works and develop the earth to this stage?
Well it's God:

Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” Genesis 1:28

Who discovered electricity, petrochemicals, telecommunication and so on?
In a sense an atheist will say "scientists" but if we are to think deeply it's the one who gave the order "fill the earth and subdue it" because it took mankind thousands of years before they can discover all these things, whereas it wouldn't have taken us much time if Adam still lives till today having God's backing to SUBDUE the earth!

So when God said "I (alone) created the earth" it doesn't mean there was nobody working beside Him as His employees, the import is God is the brain behind everything!
That's the way we see Archangel Michael (Jesus)

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
In order not to be like a parrot repeating myself let me share these additional things:
*1
The Son, according to Hebrews, laid the foundations of the earth, and and the heavens are the works of his hands. Archangel Michael is NOWHERE said to be the one who did these. The Bible is so EMPHATIC about the fact that "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3 NIV
Did you note that WITHOUT HIM nothing was made that has been made. In other words, no creation (including creatures) came into existence without Jesus's doing. Is Archangel Michael a created being? If so, he couldn't have been the creator.

Is it only Hebrews chapter 1 that was written about Jesus Christ?
Did John chapter 1 reference any miracle of Jesus?
Does it mean Jesus never did any miracle?

Hebrews 1:2 says "God made the universe through His Son"(compare 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:2-3, Jesus is an agent in the Creative process. Matthew 11:27, Job 38:1-4, Prov 8:29,1 Cor 8:6 JEHOVAH God, his Father is the Creator who Laid the foundation.).
Romans 11:35-36 what came through the Father?
Answer:
Colossians 1:15, Prov 8:22, 1 Cor 1:24 , the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-30 is the spiritual being, Jesus Christ, the angel of the Lord.
@ Matthew 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-9, is Jesus Christ the head of angels ?
Does he lead them in battle against the same enemies @ Rev 12:7-9 & Daniel 10:13,@12:1?

sagenaija:
Jesus is also referred to as the LAMB OF GOD, but he is not a physical lamb and shared no physical characteristic with that animal. That expression had to do with the mission he had to accomplish.
"Lamb" references a creature but does that title of Jesus - Lamb of God - make him a physical Lamb?
Do you believe that Jesus shares any physical characteristics with the lamb?

Isaiah 53:7 a virtuous servant is murdered but does not protest: "Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a lamb that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth."

Because Jesus Christ was like a Lamb slaughtered for sin atonement , revealed by Isaiah's prophecy Isaiah,53:7-10.
John 1:29, John the Baptizer referenced Isaiah's prophecy by addressing Jesus as "the Lamb of God".

Angel meaning Messenger. It is simple as that.
To bring in the word "functional meaning", is to add your own Maggi, pepper, and medemede.
Matthew 11:10, is John an angel?
Yes!
Can we call him angel (of the Lord JEHOVAH) on earth?
Yes.
1 Corinthians 3:23, All Angels (whether human beings or spiritual beings) serving the Lord JEHOVAH belongs to whom?

MaxInDHouse:
[/size]
[size=6pt]You keep rephrasing the questions, there's just two questions in all:
© Whether God is omniscient.
© Bible never said Jesus is Archangel Michael.

For the first question i told you that God only focus on His own program while angels are giving Him reports of other places, this angels are the creatures serving as eyes to Him in all other parts of the earth {Ezekiel 10:12} while He concentrate on the lineage of Abraham!

The second question i told you that apart from God who is not an angel all other spirits are angels (including Jesus) so if you have anything to prove that there is someone else with God who is not one of God's sons (angels) go ahead and present your evidence.
The Bible says that someone was with God in the beginning {John 1:1-2} and that the person was working with Him during creation as a master craftman {Proverbs 8:22-30} i don't see anything else arguable in that.

It's your turn to present your proof that God never employed anyone to work with Him during creation.

Remember that the technological advancement of the earth today is man's doing but who employed man to continue the works and develop the earth to this stage?
Well it's God:

Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” Genesis 1:28

Who discovered electricity, petrochemicals, telecommunication and so on?
In a sense an atheist will say "scientists" but if we are to think deeply it's the one who gave the order "fill the earth and subdue it" because it took mankind thousands of years before they can discover all these things, whereas it wouldn't have taken us much time if Adam still lives till today having God's backing to SUBDUE the earth!

So when God said "I (alone) created the earth" it doesn't mean there was nobody working beside Him as His employees, the import is God is the brain behind everything!
That's the way we see Archangel Michael (Jesus):

First, I'm glad others are reading us on this thread.

It is clear again that you ran away from the Bible verses I gave up there to show that God is all-knowing. Obviously the verses are clear enough but your dogma is fighting against the unequivocal words of Scripture. Those are verses on God's omniscience but you sidestepped them. I expected that you would show how they didn't speak on omniscience. But maybe you are unable to do that. All I see is the creed you've been fed with LACED with Bible verses.
Why did you avoid talking about them?

Even when I pointed out the CONTRADICTORY statements you made you didn't even bother to either defend yourself or prove me wrong or admit that you are wrong.

I have shown that because Jesus is said to be "the Lamb of God" doesn't make him a physical Lamb, and that he was referred to as "the Angel of Jehovah" does not also reduce him to a created angel. They have to do with his function and not his state.

Now, my final take on Jesus' sovereignty:
In colossians 1:15-17 we have this - "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Colossians 1:15‭-‬17 NIV

Let me highlight some parts of this portion. V. 16 - by Jesus ALL THINGS were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, etc. All things have been created by Him and for Him.
Did you notice that, not only have ALL things been created by him, they were also created FOR Him. For Him!!
V. 17 - Jesus EXISTED BEFORE ALL THINGS and in him ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER.
'Before all things means before any creation or created being. Also, He possesses the POWER to sustain all things. That takes omnipotence which NO CREATURE possesses. Not even an Archangel possesses such power.

Therefore, Jesus cannot be an archangel. He is more than any class of angels. Only God was at work in creation and never employed any other person to work with him in creation.

Janosky:
Is it only Hebrews chapter 1 that was written about Jesus Christ?
Did John chapter 1 reference any miracle of Jesus?
Does it mean Jesus never did any miracle?

Hebrews 1:2 says "God made the universe through His Son"(compare 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:2-3, Jesus is an agent in the Creative process. Matthew 11:27, Job 38:1-4, Prov 8:29,1 Cor 8:6 JEHOVAH God, his Father is the Creator who Laid the foundation.).
Romans 11:35-36 what came through the Father?
Answer:
Colossians 1:15, Prov 8:22, 1 Cor 1:24 , the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-30 is the spiritual being, Jesus Christ, the angel of the Lord.
@ Matthew 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-9, is Jesus Christ the head of angels ?
Does he lead them in battle against the same enemies @ Rev 12:7-9 & Daniel 10:13,@12:1?



Isaiah 53:7 a virtuous servant is murdered but does not protest: "Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a lamb that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth."

Because Jesus Christ was like a Lamb slaughtered for sin atonement , revealed by Isaiah's prophecy Isaiah,53:7-10.
John 1:29, John the Baptizer referenced Isaiah's prophecy by addressing Jesus as "the Lamb of God".

Angel meaning Messenger. It is simple as that.
To bring in the word "functional meaning", is to add your own Maggi, pepper, and medemede.
Matthew 11:10, is John an angel?
Yes!
Can we call him angel (of the Lord JEHOVAH) on earth?
Yes.
1 Corinthians 3:23, All Angels (whether human beings or spiritual beings) serving the Lord JEHOVAH belongs to whom?

I wish I quite follow your flow of thought. If I did then it would have been easier to respond to you.
Maybe you can list them in points and provide some clarity in each point.

sagenaija:
These are what you said severally:
And then this:


So, is it accomplishment, LIKE I SAID, or is it closeness to God? Remember that I had said "that the ranking of the angels was as a result of their stand for God and accomplishment as a result."

When you said 'Yes' to this my question[b]: Are you saying that all angels are the exact representation of God's being? [/b]I wonder if you really know the attributes of God. For example, God is omniscient. Are all angels omniscient?

Yes !
God is a spiritual being. John 4:24.
In heaven angels are spirits.
Every angel in heaven is an exact replica of our heavenly Father.
Trinitarians say Jesus is fully God & fully man.
Matthew 24:36 is Jesus Christ omniscient?
John 15:15 , Jesus says he was taught by God his Father.
Would he know what his Father did NOT teach him or reveal ?

sagenaija:
Your explanation of
' "i and the father are one" statement is interesting! How come those who heard him didn't see it like you did? How come they picked up stones to stone him?

John 17:23, Jesus said "that they be one just as we are one"- Jesus and his Father are one just as the disciples are one, as Paul & Apollos are one,1 Corinthians3:6-8. )
Did the Jews who killed Jesus believe that?
No, is the answer.
How come those who killed Jesus didn't believe John 17:23 like Jesus & the disciples did?

sagenaija:
Equally interesting is your take on Hebrews 1:5:
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

You said:

Did other angels speak to men after Jesus' ascension to heaven? The answer is a resounding 'Yes!'. This CLEARLY debunks this your position. And if this is so, don't you think you may be wrong on your other views?

In OT & NT, God spoke through His prophets, & also angels, to His Servants on earth.
At that time, did they have the Bible that we have today?
"But in this last days "(reference 2 Tim 3:1-7) "God has spoken to us through His Son", Bros, you see am for Hebrews 1:2?

sagenaija:
You made many statements you couldn't substantiate from the Bible such as:
1.
So, some of mankind were 'part of' the rebellion in the Garden of Eden and others were not?
Where are we told that Michael made human beings?

Bros, Was Abel rebellious ?
Hebrews 11:4 ,he was counted righteous.
You agreed, Jesus is angel of the Lord @ Genesis 16:7,13.
Therefore, 1 Corinthians 3:23 & 11:3, Jesus belongs to God.
1 Corinthians 11:3, that's hierarchy.

Matthew 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-9,Rev 12:7-9, Daniel 10:13, Jesus the angel of the Lord leads angels in glory & victory.
Romans 11:35-36 , Did Jesus create his Father?
No !
Jesus came through the Father. Bitter pill of truth .

sagenaija:
2.
Where in the Bible did it say an angel had to be 'transformed into human' in order to save man?

Job 2:1, Angel also mean son of God.
Therefore, angel of the Lord= son of the Lord JEHOVAH transformed into human..
Galatians 4:4 "God sent His Son (angel) born of a woman".

sagenaija:
3.
[s]Your mere conjecture. Where in the Bible does it say this?[/s]

4.
The woman sinned first - 1 Timothy 2:14. So, where did you get this your statement from? The Bible?

1 Timothy 2:14 correct nau

I wish I quite follow your flow of thought. If I did then it would have been easier to respond to you.
Maybe you can list them in points and provide some clarity in each point.

clarity is foreign to fraud jw janosky

he just now said: "Every angel in heaven is an exact replica of our heavenly Father"

every angel is not even a exact replica of each other
do they all have six wings, four faces etc. laugh

he a complete know nothing and just say's anything
like all false jw's do

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
Splattering Bible verses does not amount to giving cogent answers to questions.

Proverbs 8 DID NOT start from verse 31.
Look carefully again from verse 1. It is wisdom personified. You can't pluck out one verse to the disregard of the entire portion.
.

Before you were born, Trinitarian Geneva Bible referenced Proverbs 8:22-31 to John 1:1.

If you like reject the truth
The Wisdom of Proverbs 8 :22-31 was referenced as a "Craftsman" with the pronoun "I", "me" & 1 Corinthians 1:24 proven that the Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22-31 is Jesus Christ.

sagenaija:
See again what I earlier posted:

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 1:3 NIV
.

The only true God is NOT 3 Triune copies
Hebrews 1:3 lexicon
exact representation
χαρακτὴρ (charaktēr)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5481: From the same as charax; a graver, i.e. engraving, the figure stamped, i.e. An exact copy [/b]or representation"

Every Son is exact replica of the parents character, & so what?
[b]Hebrews 1:3 is John 5:19.
Bros,Why would your God be obeying orders to sit down at the Majesty's right hand in heaven?
Your FALSE claim of equality @ Philippians 2:6 is not tenable because your God is obeying the orders of his Superior , "the Majesty"

sagenaija:
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
Hebrews 1:5 NIV
.

Jesus,Angel of the Lord is a always the Son of his Father in the spiritual realm.
His Father have many other sons in the spiritual realm.
Job 38:1-7 all of them witnessed the creation of man & the universe.
Hebrews 1:9, Jesus the angel of the Lord was Anointed above all other sons of God.

sagenaija:
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8 NIV
.

The Masoretic Text of Psalms 45:6-7 is the original copy of Hebrews 1:8. "Thy throne given of God/ Your throne is from God/ God is your throne"
The Masoretic Text read by the Jews is far older than ALL English Bibles & proven that Trinitarian TWIST of Hebrews 1:8 is fabricated. (Screenshots)

sagenaija:
These CLEARLY show that Jesus is more than an angelic being, no matter the ranking. He is here portrayed as God.

In Philippians 2:6 we are told that his very nature is God, not of a creature which angels are:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God [/b]something to be used to his own advantage;
Philippians 2:6 NIV

The quiz I gave is not another segment; it is still relevant to the matter at hand, but you appear to have missed the import of it. Johnw47 caught it.

.

John 20:17, 14:28, 5:19. Rev 3:5,12,21.
At anytime in heaven & earth Jesus did NOT claim equality with God.
Philippians 2:6 Original verse reads " in the form of God", (see Screenshots)
"Form of God" is spirit, Jesus is spirit, Angels in heaven are spirits. They are all spiritual beings.
But them change Phillippians 2:6 to:
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"
Trinitarians too dey TWIST the holy Scriptures.

sagenaija:
Therefore, Jesus cannot be an archangel. He is more than any class of angels. Only God was at work in creation and never employed any other person to work with him in creation.

The highlighted is what matters to me because it's obvious you just want to continue arguing.

Well God's word said someone was with God during creation!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God! KJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god! NWT

No matter how you try to twist it i'll not continue arguing fruitlessly when God's word says someone worked with God during creation!

Janosky:
Yes !
God is a spiritual being. John 4:24.
In heaven angels are spirits.
Every angel in heaven is an exact replica of our heavenly Father.
Trinitarians say Jesus is fully God & fully man.
Matthew 24:36 is Jesus Christ omniscient?
John 15:15 , Jesus says he was taught by God his Father.
Would he know what his Father did NOT teach him or reveal ?
John 17:23, Jesus said "that they be one just as we are one"- Jesus and his Father are one just as the disciples are one, as Paul & Apollos are one,1 Corinthians3:6-8. )
Did the Jews who killed Jesus believe that?
No, is the answer.
How come those who killed Jesus didn't believe John 17:23 like Jesus & the disciples did? In OT & NT, God spoke through His prophets, & also angels, to His Servants on earth. At that time, did they have the Bible that we have today?
"But in this last days "(reference 2 Tim 3:1-7) "God has spoken to us through His Son", Bros, you see am for Hebrews 1:2?
Bros, Was Abel rebellious ?
Hebrews 11:4 ,he was counted righteous.
You agreed, Jesus is angel of the Lord @ Genesis 16:7,13.
Therefore, 1 Corinthians 3:23 & 11:3, Jesus belongs to God.
1 Corinthians 11:3, that's hierarchy.
Matthew 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-9,Rev 12:7-9, Daniel 10:13, Jesus the angel of the Lord leads angels in glory & victory.
Romans 11:35-36 , Did Jesus create his Father?
No! Jesus came through the Father. Bitter pill of truth .
Job 2:1, Angel also mean son of God.
Therefore, angel of the Lord= son of the Lord JEHOVAH transformed into human..
Galatians 4:4 "God sent His Son (angel) born of a woman".

1 Timothy 2:14 correct nau

I started reducing my comments because i noticed he is not interested in valid reasons all he just want to say is that Jesus is not God's messenger whereas the Bible is clear on this matter!

Let him and his fellow believers go out there to PREACH and TEACH what they know, the result will prove who knows better! Matthew 7:16-18

We don't need all these fruitless arguments! 1Timothy 6:4

janosky, I'm sorry I still don't follow you. You appear to be using a preconceived idea of what you think I have in mind to answer my points. I believe it's the DOGMA thing your colleague talked about.

MaxinDHouse,
Is it not interesting that the John 1:1 DID NOT SAY ".... and the Word was AN ANGEL"?
Is it not also interesting that v. 3 says
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3 NIV
Did you notice "WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE"?
Does that not tell you that the Word (incidentally capitalized in your out-of-the-way translation) was UNCREATED?
Check the English word 'WITHOUT'. Check the word 'NOTHING'. And check also the English word 'MADE'.
Do that objectively.
Be sure you're not going after an outer space creature of your creation as Jehovah.

sagenaija:
janosky, I'm sorry I still don't follow you. You appear to be using a preconceived idea of what you think I have in mind to answer my points. I believe it's the DOGMA thing your colleague talked about.

MaxinDHouse,
Is it not interesting that the John 1:1 DID NOT SAY ".... and the Word was AN ANGEL"?
Is it not also interesting that v. 3 says
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3 NIV
Did you notice "WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE"?
Does that not tell you that the Word (incidentally capitalized in your out-of-the-way translation) was UNCREATED?
Check the English word 'WITHOUT'. Check the word 'NOTHING'. And check also the English word 'MADE'.
Do that objectively.
Be sure you're not going after an outer space creature of your creation as Jehovah.

The WORD was God just as Moses was God {Exodus 7:1} so there's nothing special at that because Moses said:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken" Deuteronomy 18:15

Apostle Peter later revealed that Jesus is the person Moses spoke about:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever, he shall say unto you". Act 3:22

So the word was God just like Moses, does that mean Moses is not human?
The same way the word was one of God's spirit sons: angel John 3:16

Therefore if God's word says: without him nothing was created it doesn't mean that the word wasn't sent by someone, because all what happened leading to the deliverance of Israelites from Egyptian's bondage nothing was done without Moses. That doesn't implies that Moses was the sole deliverer of Israel!

The same way there is nothing that's created without Jesus doesn't implies that Jesus is the sole Creator, of course he was acting on instructions given by the Almighty God!

Read the account of Genesis 1 and meditate thoroughly because one person was giving orders while the second person was acting on the orders!

Jesus ~ angel- man - prophet -God

Moses ~ man -prophet -God

So the edge is clear, the first deliverer (Moses) is from this source: Adam's descendants on earth (human)!
The second deliverer (Jesus) is not of this source: from the spirit realms (angel)!

The account of Genesis simplified the matter!

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth! Genesis 1:1

Then the narrator never mentioned anything else about (heaven) rather He continued with earth, Why?
Because the Master Worker acting on God's instructions is a spirit so working on spiritual realms like creation of angels and other heavenly things doesn't give him a challenge!

But when it comes to the physical that he has never seen, heard or felt he needed superior wisdom from the grand Creator!

Let's continue:

Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters! Genesis 1:2

The bolded in red clearly shows that the master craftman is confused because he couldn't get things right, so the real owner came to inspect the job, and after noticing that His employee can't continue without His continuous support the employer began giving the necessary instructions!

Listen:

And God said: “Let there be light.” Then there was light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.

The employer began giving the necessary instructions on how physical things should be made: "let there be light" after which He inspected what the employee did and approved it: God saw that the light was good

No wonder Jesus told his followers

never say anything is impossible because i have had the experience that "with God (my father) everything is possible"


When the disciples heard that, they were greatly astounded, saying: “Who really can be saved?” Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25-26

Jesus (Archangel Michael) spoke from his experience with his father! John 1:1

When we PREACH and TEACH you people think we used Juju to catch our listeners but it is deeper understanding that's of higher intelligence that helps us make the best disciples ever. You will see JW volunteers zealously preaching and industriously teaching throughout the earth what they know unlike your own disciples who can't even do any work with consistency! Matthew 7:16-18

So whenever you come in contact with JWs know that we have the FAITH that's WORKING {James 2:18-26} because Archangel Michael (Jesus Christ) is with us, helping us to acquire the accurate knowledge of God's word! Matthew 28:20

MaxInDHouse:
The WORD was God just as Moses was God {Exodus 7:1} so there's nothing special at that because Moses said:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken" Deuteronomy 18:15

Apostle Peter later revealed that Jesus is the person Moses spoke about:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever, he shall say unto you". Act 3:22

So the word was God just like Moses, does that mean Moses is not human?
The same way the word was one of God's spirit sons: angel John 3:16

Therefore if God's word says: without him nothing was created it doesn't mean that the word wasn't sent by someone, because all what happened leading to the deliverance of Israelites from Egyptian's bondage nothing was done without Moses. That doesn't implies that Moses was the sole deliverer of Israel!

The same way there is nothing that's created without Jesus doesn't implies that Jesus is the sole Creator, of course he was acting on instructions given by the Almighty God!

Read the account of Genesis 1 and meditate thoroughly because one person was giving orders while the second person was acting on the orders!

Jesus ~ angel- man - prophet -God

Moses ~ man -prophet -God

So the edge is clear, the first deliverer (Moses) is from this source: Adam's descendants on earth (human)!
The second deliverer (Jesus) is not of this source: from the spirit realms (angel)!

Exodus 7:1 DID NOT SAY that Moses was God!!!! Unless your translation again changed the wordings there.
God told Moses there that he, God, has made Moses LIKE God before Pharaoh. Did you see the word 'LIKE'?
DO YOU see the word 'LIKE' in John 1?
John 1 says that the Word was God from ETERNITY PAST.
This wrong interpretation comes when you use your DOGMA to try to interpret Scripture instead of letting the Scriptures speak to you.

The book of Hebrews is telling us that a GREATER THAN Moses is here. And you want us to take your word that the Word was JUST LIKE Moses.

Your explanation of John 1:3 is lame. 'NOTHING' means 'not any thing', 'no thing'. This means that not ONE THING was made without it being the Word that made it. No CREATION or CREATURES (including angels) were made without it being the handiwork of the Word.

Did you notice that in verse 2 it says: "Through him ALL THINGS were made"? I bet in your dictionary ALL THINGS excludes some things. The 'ALL' is not really all if we are to go by your definitions.

So when you make such claims as

Therefore if God's word says: without him nothing was created it doesn't mean that the word wasn't sent by someone

you just show up being unable to rightly divide the word of truth. You're trying to make the passage FIT INTO your worldview.

I think I'm right that you've made up an outer space creature as your Jehovah. Now, according to you, your god can be

confused because he couldn't get things right, so the real owner came to inspect the job

He also a god who

..... only focus on His own program while angels are giving Him reports of other places, this angels are the creatures serving as eyes to Him in all other parts of the earth

You have a god who can be CONFUSED, who has to rely on angels to know what is happening in parts of his creation, and who perhaps have other deficiencies you may still bring up for us.

These descriptions of your god will do well in a COMIC storyline!

No wonder you ran away from the Bible verses I gave on God's OMNISCIENCE. They don't line up with your fairytales.

No wonder your translation had to IMPORT the article 'a' into John 1:1 to make the Word 'a god'. You have a COSMIC god, an extraterrestrial being of your creation as your Jehovah.

BUT the Jesus of the Bible is ONE IN ESSENCE with the Father. In other words, they EQUALLY share ALL the attributes of DEITY. Colossians tells us that he had to voluntarily restrict the INDEPENDENT use of his deity in order to fulfill the Father's plan for mankind's salvation. So, all those portions that show him as limited by flesh were because of that voluntary restriction.

sagenaija:
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Exodus 7:1 DID NOT SAY that Moses was God!!!! Unless your translation again changed the wordings there.
God told Moses there that he, God, has made Moses LIKE God before Pharaoh. Did you see the word 'LIKE'?
DO YOU see the word 'LIKE' in John 1?
John 1 says that the Word was God from ETERNITY PAST.
This wrong interpretation comes when you use your DOGMA to try to interpret Scripture instead of letting the Scriptures speak to you.

The book of Hebrews is telling us that a GREATER THAN Moses is here. And you want us to take your word that the Word was JUST LIKE Moses.

Your explanation of John 1:3 is lame. 'NOTHING' means 'not any thing', 'no thing'. This means that not ONE THING was made without it being the Word that made it. No CREATION or CREATURES (including angels) were made without it being the handiwork of the Word.

Did you notice that in verse 2 it says: "Through him ALL THINGS were made"? I bet in your dictionary ALL THINGS excludes some things. The 'ALL' is not really all if we are to go by your definitions.

So when you make such claims as

you just show up being unable to rightly divide the word of truth. You're trying to make the passage FIT INTO your worldview.

I think I'm right that you've made up an outer space creature as your Jehovah. Now, according to you, your god can be

He also a god who


You have a god who can be CONFUSED, who has to rely on angels to know what is happening in parts of his creation, and who perhaps have other deficiencies you may still bring up for us.

These descriptions of your god will do well in a COMIC storyline!

No wonder you ran away from the Bible verses I gave on God's OMNISCIENCE. They don't line up with your fairytales.

No wonder your translation had to IMPORT the article 'a' into John 1:1 to make the Word 'a god'. You have a COSMIC god, an extraterrestrial being of your creation as your Jehovah.

BUT the Jesus of the Bible is ONE IN ESSENCE with the Father. In other words, they EQUALLY share ALL the attributes of DEITY. Colossians tells us that he had to voluntarily restrict the INDEPENDENT use of his deity in order to fulfill the Father's plan for mankind's salvation. So, all those portions that show him as limited by flesh were because of that voluntary restriction.

I believe it's time to PRESENT the original Greek Scriptures where all those translators got what you're arguing about now.
Check the first Greek text translated "God" then compare to the second that we rendered "a god"
Some none trinitarian scholars translated the second Greek text as "divine" or "Godlike" or "like God" this was why there arose lots of persecutions during the dark ages because the trinitarians don't want their secrets to be leaked, they were killing those who try to Interpret God's word behind them!
You can Google "William Tyndale"
So calm down and learn!

MaxInDHouse:
YES!
Because they're all spirit beings like God.

I know some of what you say on this forum has no root in deep doctrine of your organization.

The claim neither none of your dead GB nor the ones alive ever made is what you're making here, yet thinking you're making sense.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted is what matters to me because it's obvious you just want to continue arguing.

And you're not arguing bah....

Well God's word said someone was with God during creation!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God! KJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god! NWT

And the same God's word said ONLY GOD PERFORMED THE WHOLE ACT OF CREATION even the Prove 8 you always try to twist still confirmed this.

No matter how you try to twist it i'll not continue arguing fruitlessly when God's word says someone worked with God during creation!

Always accuse people of arguing yet this is the same deluded person who spends all his days on faceless forum particularly on religion section.

If anyone should be accused of involving in arguments it should be you.

Emusan:
I know some of what you say on this forum has no root in deep doctrine of your organization.

The claim neither none of your dead GB nor the ones alive ever made is what you're making here, yet thinking you're making sense.

LIENUS as usual.

Hosea 12:3-4.
Is the angel God ?

Jesus is angel of the Lord, JEHOVAH., Genesis 16:7
Emphasis on "OF", evidence of ownership.

Juxtapose Hosea 12:3-4 & John 1:1 Greek interlinear screenshot.
Is Jesus the word the God?
Emusan go dodge the Bible truth as usual

MaxInDHouse:
I believe it's time to PRESENT the original Greek Scriptures where all those translators got what you're arguing about now.
Check the first Greek text translated "God" then compare to the second that we rendered "a god"
Some none trinitarian scholars translated the second Greek text as "divine" or "Godlike" or "like God" this was why there arose lots of persecutions during the dark ages because the trinitarians don't want their secrets to be leaked, they were killing those who try to Interpret God's word behind them!
You can Google "William Tyndale"
So calm down and learn!

You mean Williams Tyndale isn't a Trinitarian?

This your delusion has graduated to another level.

Tyndale included 1 John 5:7 in his Bible

So what exactly are you insinuating about Tyndale?

Janosky:
LIENUS as usual.

Hosea 12:3-4.
Is the angel God ?

Jesus is angel of the Lord, JEHOVAH.
Emphasis on "OF".

Juxtapose Hosea 12:3-4 & John 1:1 Greek interlinear screenshot.
Is Jesus the word the God?
Emusan go dodge as usual

Where was it stated that Jesus is the Angel of Jehovah.

But it was stated clearly that Gabriel is the Angel of Jehovah.

So are you saying Jesus is now Gabriel?

Emusan:
You mean Williams Tyndale isn't a Trinitarian?

This your delusion has graduated to another level.

Tyndale included 1 John 5:7 in his Bible

So what exactly are you insinuating about Tyndale?

Yet , your Trinitarian mentors burnt him to ashes.

Janosky:
Yet , your Trinitarian mentors burnt him to ashes.

You didn't answer my questions.

So can you provide where Williams Tyndale Bible negates Trinitarian Bible?