₦airaland Forum

Image123:
You're both saying the same thing. A vision is not a literal coming. The coming of our Lord which is popularly called the second coming is well described in the Bible. It is not a secret coming, EVERY eye shall see Him. He'd be here for about a thousand years. Don't get it mixed up.

What I don't understand is how you people are now shifting his own words concerning his second coming to the transfiguration. He purportedly states it clearly that he is coming with angels but now you are saying no its the transfiguration he was talking about.

LordReed:
Verse 27 and 28 are in 2 separate paragraphs? How do you mean?

In the original manuscript/writing. Also in the division to chapters in Mark and Luke. They are two separate discussions/events. Verse 28 in Matthew is referring to the Transfiguration. Verse 27 is referring to the 2nd coming.

LordReed:
What I don't understand is how you people are now shifting his own words concerning his second coming to the transfiguration. He purportedly states it clearly that he is coming with angels but now you are saying no its the transfiguration he was talking about.

We're not shifting it, He Himself "shifted" it in the original. That was the way the disciples understood it, that was the way early Christians and most Bible scholars understood/understand it. You are one of the few that i have heard(maybe in recent times) attempting to mix it up. The one that is usually mixed up is the Matthew 24 about "this generation". This one of Transfiguration, has always been pretty clear in most quarters.

Image123:
In the original manuscript/writing. Also in the division to chapters in Mark and Luke. They are two separate discussions/events. Verse 28 in Matthew is referring to the Transfiguration. Verse 27 is referring to the 2nd coming.

Which manuscript does this division?

Image123:
We're not shifting it, He Himself "shifted" it in the original. That was the way the disciples understood it, that was the way early Christians and most Bible scholars understood/understand it. You are one of the few that i have heard(maybe in recent times) attempting to mix it up. The one that is usually mixed up is the Matthew 24 about "this generation". This one of Transfiguration, has always been pretty clear in most quarters.

Can you show me which early Christians understood it this way?

LordReed:
Which manuscript does this division?

Lol, which one do you have access to? BTW, i said ALSO in the division to chapters and verses(manuscripts are not divided into chapters and verses). It's a separate paragraph/line in the manuscripts.

Image123:
Lol, which one do you have access to? BTW, i said ALSO in the division to chapters and verses(manuscripts are not divided into chapters and verses). It's a separate paragraph/line in the manuscripts.

If you mention one I can find it so which one?

LordReed:
Can you show me which early Christians understood it this way?

Peter was a primary witness. That's how he understood it. Same goes for other Christians till date who still wait for the Lord's coming. Evidently, if they were told that the Lord would/must come in their lifetime, they would not be telling us that He would come after their death. Even John dismissed such misunderstandings

2 Peter 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.


Here is John, the last disciple that was alive showing that Jesus was to come after he John had died, not necessarily before.

John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

So like i said, none of the disciples thought Jesus Christ "second" coming must be in their lifetime. Only you or people like you think so, the people who were addressed never thought so and tried to correct such impressions. We see after the gospels up till Revelation telling us Jesus Christ was coming again and none of them made such teachings that He was to come before they died.

LordReed:
If you mention one I can find it so which one?

Find anyone, study Greek lol, then see the simple thing i have stated. The two verses are not connected but different paragraphs.

Image123:
Find anyone, study Greek lol, then see the simple thing i have stated. The two verses are not connected but different paragraphs.

I checked it out here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm and it doesn't seem to give the idea you say it does. Ver 28 starts with amen or verily, that is used for emphasis. How could he be emphasising something different?

LordReed:
I checked it out here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm and it doesn't seem to give the idea you say it does. Ver 28 starts with amen or verily, that is used for emphasis. How could he be emphasising something different?

This is a Greek Interlinear Bible, not exactly what i referred to. i referred to the early manuscripts in which the Bible was written. The language and Bible scholars that copied them, studied them and divided them saw the two verses on two different paragraphs, which indicates a separate line of thought. It's just an indication anyway, just like any chapter division.
The crown and real point is the understanding of the audience, both primary, secondary and tertiary audience to which the gospel is addressed. Like i showed, Peter and the other apostles were not confused or thinking Jesus must come again in their lifetime.

Image123:
This is a Greek Interlinear Bible, not exactly what i referred to. i referred to the early manuscripts in which the Bible was written. The language and Bible scholars that copied them, studied them and divided them saw the two verses on two different paragraphs, which indicates a separate line of thought. It's just an indication anyway, just like any chapter division.
The crown and real point is the understanding of the audience, both primary, secondary and tertiary audience to which the gospel is addressed. Like i showed, Peter and the other apostles were not confused or thinking Jesus must come again in their lifetime.

I think I grasp your point.

Image123:
This is a Greek Interlinear Bible, not exactly what i referred to. i referred to the early manuscripts in which the Bible was written. The language and Bible scholars that copied them, studied them and divided them saw the two verses on two different paragraphs, which indicates a separate line of thought. It's just an indication anyway, just like any chapter division.
The crown and real point is the understanding of the audience, both primary, secondary and tertiary audience to which the gospel is addressed. Like i showed, Peter and the other apostles were not confused or thinking Jesus must come again in their lifetime.

Can you explain this one:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen

Was it not an expectation that Jesus was coming in the lifetime of those who killed him?

LordReed:
Can you explain this one:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen

Was it not an expectation that Jesus was coming in the lifetime of those who killed him?

This is a prophecy quoted from the Old Testament. It refers to the Israelites, not exactly the direct/personal killers or soldier crucifiers if any word like that. We surely know it's not referring to the very soldier that nailed Him. It's like referring to government, it's not really one direct person.

Zec 12:10 KJV And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Image123:
This is a prophecy quoted from the Old Testament. It refers to the Israelites, not exactly the direct/personal killers or soldier crucifiers if any word like that. We surely know it's not referring to the very soldier that nailed Him. It's like referring to government, it's not really one direct person.

Zec 12:10 KJV And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

How about this one:

63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Was he not saying Caiaphas would see him come in his glory?

LordReed:
How about this one:

63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Was he not saying Caiaphas would see him come in his glory?

Mat 26:63 KJV But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

The you/ye in verse 64 is plural and in consistency with all other scriptures and accounts prophetic of what would happen to Israel as a nation, not Caiaphas as a person.

This is similar to Peter's preaching at pentecost and Stephen before his martyrdom, it is a general Israel.

Act 2:23 KJV Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 7:43 KJV Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Act 7:51 KJV Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Image123:
Mat 26:63 KJV But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

The you/ye in verse 64 is plural and in consistency with all other scriptures and accounts prophetic of what would happen to Israel as a nation, not Caiaphas as a person.

This is similar to Peter's preaching at pentecost and Stephen before his martyrdom, it is a general Israel.

Act 2:23 KJV Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 7:43 KJV Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Act 7:51 KJV Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Even if it was plural, the reference would be to the people present there, who are all dead without seeing Jesus come in the clouds as he said.

ICEWIN:
Is God biaz?
am confuse how some people merit why some dont in there entire life

I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle, nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, because time and unexpected events overtake them all. Ecclesiastes 9:11

According to God's word, there were faithful men like Abraham, Job and Solomon who had material possessions, and there were faithful servants of God who were poor like Elijah, John the baptist and Jesus Christ.
So material possessions is not what God promised His own people, anyone can have it! Matthew 5:45

MaxInDHouse:
I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle, nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, because time and unexpected events overtake them all. Ecclesiastes 9:11

According to God's word, there were faithful men like Abraham, Job and Solomon who had material possessions, and there were faithful servants of God who were poor like Elijah, John the baptist and Jesus Christ.
So material possessions is not what God promised His own people, anyone can have it! Matthew 5:45

thanks for these words convince now

ICEWIN:
thanks for these words convince now

You are welcome anytime Sir!

LordReed:
Even if it was plural, the reference would be to the people present there, who are all dead without seeing Jesus come in the clouds as he said.

The words of Jesus are not read, spoken or understood that way. His words are spoken as life and applicable to an audience far surpassing the primary. The whole gospels is written that way. When He says "ye/you", it's usually not just the primary audience. i can quote a hundred verses in such a way.

Mat 5:11 KJV Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Image123:
The words of Jesus are not read, spoken or understood that way. His words are spoken as life and applicable to an audience far surpassing the primary. The whole gospels is written that way. When He says "ye/you", it's usually not just the primary audience. i can quote a hundred verses in such a way.

Mat 5:11 KJV Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

So they was no where he was only speaking to the people listening at that moment?

LordReed:
So they was no where he was only speaking to the people listening at that moment?

There were and the context is clear, but most of His words are applicable in a way. It's a what I say unto you I say unto all mode most of the time.
In the case of the nation of Israel, it often comes that way in most parts of the Bible. Addressing the leadership is seen as addressing the nation. The leaders are representative of the people.

Image123:
There were and the context is clear, but most of His words are applicable in a way. It's a what I say unto you I say unto all mode most of the time.
In the case of the nation of Israel, it often comes that way in most parts of the Bible. Addressing the leadership is seen as addressing the nation. The leaders are representative of the people.

So how do you tell the difference?

ICEWIN:
Is God biaz?
am confuse how some people merit why some dont in there entire life

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"He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He." - Deuteronomy 32:4

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." - Matthew 5:48

LordReed:
So how do you tell the difference?

It's often very clear, by the Holy Spirit. But let's not go into that. Usually it is settled by any studious Bible student in the mouth of two or three witnesses. Prophecy(the prophetic) is in different parts of the Bible so they agree with one another. But in the case of personal conversation with Jesus, most of the directions are general and applicable to believers. There are however commonsense directives that may not be directly applicable but contain lessons. e.g "Roll the stone away" could mean that you should remove hindrances and limitations you have placed on yourself or a situation. "Give to Caesar" is not necessarily Caesar for me but authority or government.