On January 10, American and Russian officials will meet to discuss Putin’s proposal on mutual security guarantees. Western media and political analysts have cast Putin’s demands that NATO not expand further east to Ukraine and that NATO not establish military bases in former Soviet states nor use them to carry out military activity as bold and impossible.

Here are six crucial pieces of background that the western media will not tell you.

The NATO Promise

Putin’s demands are only bold if it is bold to ask NATO to keep its promises; his demands are only impossible if it is impossible for NATO to keep its promises.

On February 9, 1990, Secretary of State James Baker assured Gorbachev that if NATO got Germany – a huge concession – NATO would not expand one inch east of Germany. The next day, West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher made the same promise to his Soviet counterpart, Eduard Shevardnadz. Earlier, on January 31, 1990, Genscher had already publicly declared in a major speech that there would not be “an expansion of NATO territory to the east, in other words, closer to the borders of the Soviet Union.”

Recently declassified documents make it clear that all the western powers, including not only the US and Germany but also the UK and France, repeatedly made Russia the same promise.

Seven years later, when the US had already broken that promise, Clinton made Russia a second promise. Having expanded NATO far east of Germany, at least they would not permanently station substantial combat forces. That was the promise the US signed in the NATO-Russia Founding Act on Mutual Relations. It was a reiteration of the earlier February 1990 promise that, not only NATO membership, but NATO troops would not extend east.

So, far from being bold or asking the ridiculous, what the media will not tell you is that Putin is not asking for any new Western concessions. He is asking only that the West honor the commitments it has already made.

The Coup

The catalyst for the crisis today in Ukraine was the 2014 coup. That coup was set up and supported by the US. Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was faced with the choice of economic alliance with the European Union or with Russia. Polls at the time clearly showed that Ukrainians were nearly evenly split on which economic alliance to choose. Yanukovych’s choice of either package would have divided the country. Putin offered Yanukovych a way out: both Russia and the EU could help Ukraine and Yanukovych doesn’t have to be forced to choose. The US and EU rejected Putin’s peace offering. According to Stephen Cohen, Professor Emeritus of Russian Studies at Princeton, “it was the European Union, backed by Washington, that said in November to the democratically elected President of a profoundly divided country, Ukraine, ‘You must choose between Europe and Russia.’”

The stage was now set for strife in Ukraine. And the US stoked that strife. Led by Senator John McCain and Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian affairs Victoria Nuland, the US publicly endorsed and supported the coup protesters. The White House then provided cover and legitimacy to the violent protesters in the streets. Through The National Endowment for Democracy, the US also funded projects that helped fuel the coup.

More sinister than that even, the US was deeply involved in the plotting of the coup itself. Nuland was caught plotting who the Americans want to be the winner of the regime change. She can be heard on an intercepted call telling the American ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, that Arseniy Yatsenyuk is America’s choice to replace Yanukovych (and he did). Most importantly, Pyatt refers to the West needing to “midwife this thing,” a metaphorical admission of America’s role in leading the coup. At one point, Nuland even seems to say that then Vice President Biden, himself, would be willing to do the midwifery.

Nuland then pressured security forces to stop guarding government buildings and allow the coup protesters in. The opposition then took advantage of the absence of MPs from the south and east because of a pre-scheduled congress of regional politicians and of intimidation that forced many others to flee to ensure that it had the numbers to take over parliament in a coup disguised as democracy.

So instead of a Russian puppet president betraying his people and abandoning an economic alliance with the European Union in favor of an economic alliance with Russia, what the media will not tell you is that the catalyst of the current crisis was a US engineered and supported coup of a democratically elected president.

The Connection

The media will also not tell you about the crucial connection between the NATO promise not to expand east and the coup in Ukraine. The economic alliance with the EU was not the benign package presented to the Western pubic. It was not just an economic offer. According to Professor Emeritus of Russian Studies at Princeton, Stephen Cohen, the European Union proposal also “included ‘security policy’ provisions . . . that would apparently subordinate Ukraine to NATO.” The provisions compelled Ukraine to “adhere to Europe’s ‘military and security’ policies.” So the proposal was not a benign economic agreement: it was a security threat to Russia in economic sheep’s clothing.

Professor of Russian and European Politics at the University of Kent Richard Sakwa says, “EU enlargement paves the way to NATO membership” and points out that, since 1989, every new member of the EU has become a member of NATO. It’s not only that the EU package subordinated Ukraine to NATO, since the EU Treaty of Lisbon went into effect in 2009, all new members of the EU are required to align their defense and security policies with NATO.

Far from being just an economic agreement, Article 4 of the EU’s Association Agreement with Ukraine says the Agreement will “promote gradual convergence on foreign and security matters with the aim of Ukraine’s ever-deeper involvement in the European security area.” Article 7 speaks of the convergence of security and defense, and Article 10 says that “the parties shall explore the potential of military and technological cooperation.”

So, the EU economic alliance was an aggressive package that hid in it NATO’s expansion right up to Russia’s border. The media won’t tell you that either.

What Crimea Wants

What made Russia’s annexation of Crimea so threatening to the US was not the annexation itself. In itself, Crimea is not so important to the US. What was so threatening was what the annexation meant in terms of Russia’s relationship to the US and in terms of its changing role in the world order.

Alexander Lukin, who is Head of Department of International Relations at National Research University Higher School of Economics in Moscow and an authority on Russian politics and international relations, explains that the reason the annexation of Crimea was crucial is that, prior to that, since the end of the Cold War, Russia had been considered a subordinate partner of the West. In all disagreements between Russia and the US up to then, Russia had compromised, and the disagreements were resolved rather quickly. “The crisis in Ukraine and Russia’s reaction to it have fundamentally changed this consensus,” Lukin says. “Russia refused to play by the rules.” Crimea marked the end of the unipolar world of American hegemony. Russia drew the line and asserted itself as a new pole in a multipolar world order. That is why the US is so threatened by Russia’s response to the events of 2014 and the US coup. It is the battle over which US hegemony will be fought.

The coup in Ukraine led to the Russian annexation of Crimea. But that was not an act of aggression. It was a defensive reaction to Western encroachment deep into its sphere of influence and right up to its borders. It was a defensive reaction to the oppression of Russian-speaking people on its borders. NATO expansion had knocked on Russia’s doors. In 2014, “it came to ‘brotherly’ Ukraine,” as Lukin puts it, “a region for which Russia has special feelings and most of whose residents consider themselves Russian.” That was Russia’s red line, and it annexed Crimea. But not as an act of aggression. Rather the annexation was “in response to the aspirations of a majority of its residents.”

Sakwa says that “It is clear that the majority of the Crimean population favored unification with Russia.” A majority voted for unification with Russia when the question was put to a referendum. The accuracy of the exact result has been the subject of debate, but Sakwa says that “even in perfect conditions a majority in Crimea would have voted for union with Russia.”

So, far from being an act of Russian aggression in seizing Crimea, what the media will not tell you is that Russia was responding to Western aggression and answering the call of the majority of the people of Crimea.

What the Donbas and Russia Want

While the US and the Western media exaggerate the threat of an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine – an invasion Noam Chomsky has recently saidthat “most serious analysts doubt” – what they won’t tell you is that Russia wants very badly not to invade Ukraine. That’s why they haven’t for the past seven years. Anatol Lieven, who is a senior research fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, points out that “Russia has not annexed Donetsk and Luhansk (the two Ukrainian provinces that make up the Donbas) or recognized their independence.” He says that “annexation is not Russia’s preferred option for the future of the [Donbas] region,” and adds the important reminder that “Moscow could have annexed the Donbas (as it did Crimea) at any time during the past seven years but has refrained from doing so.”

When the Donbas region of Eastern Ukraine tried to follow Crimea’s path back to Russia, Putin tried to prevent their referendums, even while he accepted Crimea’s. Sakwa reports in Frontline Ukraine that “Putin showed little sign of wanting a Crimea-style takeover of the region, repeatedly rejecting requests to accept the territory as part of Russia.” When Donbas did hold elections, though Putin “respected” the results, he declined to accept them or be bound by them.

In addition to Russia’s actions being defensive and not expansionist, there are a number of reasons Putin would be hesitant to invade Ukraine. One is the US promise that it “will respond decisively.” Another is the difficulty in winning, controlling and holding the Donbas region. But another is that it is strategically more beneficial for Russia not to annex the Donbas. Anatol Lieven told me in a personal correspondence that “it makes much more sense for Russia to leave the Donbas as part of Ukraine and use it as a lever first to block NATO expansion and secondly (if it can be made an autonomous part of Ukraine) to influence Ukrainian politics from within.” As long as the Donbas is part of Ukraine, it can vote against NATO membership; if Russia annexes it, it loses that vote.

So, contrary to the media message, Russia doesn’t even want to annex the Donbas. And what do the people of the Donbas want?

The US maintains that it is helpless to promise that Ukraine won’t join NATO because it is up to the people of the Ukraine to make that decision. That is ironic because it is not clear that the people of Ukraine want to join NATO, and it is certainly unclear that the people of the Donbas do.

Contrary to the portrayal in the media of a people desperate to escape Russian and to run into the arms of NATO, Volodymyr Ishchenko, research associate at the Institute of East European Studies, Freie Universität Berlin, reports that “Ukrainians are far from unified in support of NATO membership.” Ishchenko says that the majority of Ukrainians do not favor NATO membership. He reports that support stands at about 40% but that even that minority number is misleadingly bloated. The number has swelled to 40% by no longer including Ukrainians from the pro-Russian regions of Crimea and Donbas in the surveys. He adds that even where support for an alliance with Russia has dropped, it has not migrated to the NATO camp but to the neutral camp.

So the real picture is one the media won’t tell you: Russia doesn’t want the Donbas and the Donbas, and possibly even Ukraine, don’t want NATO.

Hypocrisy

Russians also feel the sting of hypocrisy when it comes to Ukraine and Crimea. They point to Kosovo and Cuba.

In 2008, the US supported the secession of Kosovo over Russia’s objections, but they call Crimea’s secession a gross violation of international law by Russia. “As a result,” Lukin says, “Russia sees the West’s position on Crimea . . . as nothing more than a case of extreme hypocrisy.”

Sakwa points out in Frontline Ukraine that Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia without even having a referendum. Yet “many Western countries, with the US in the lead, had recognized Kosovo’s independence despite repeated UN resolutions upholding the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.” Sakwa also points out that the US endorsed “the infamous advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice . . . that Kosovo’s declaration of independence ‘did not violate general international law’.” Why is what’s fair for Kosovo not fair for Ukraine?

And what about NATO troops and weapons pushing right up to Russia’s borders? How would the US respond if Russia placed troops and weapons on America’s border? The Munro doctrine tells us clearly how the US would interpret Russian encroachment into the American sphere. And the Cuban missile crisis tells us clearly how the US would react to Russian troops and weapons on America’s border.

The annexation of Crimea was not a Russian act of expansionist aggression or intervention. It was the defense of a red line against US expansionism that broke a foundational US and NATO promise and against an interventionist US supported coup. Russia has been unwilling to annex the Donbas and responsive to the will of the majority in annexing Crimea. The US is threatened by Russia’s activity because Russia has drawn the line and is no longer playing a submissive and cooperative role in the US led world order. The Eastern Ukraine-Russian border is the line over which the battle of US hegemony is being fought. But the Western media won’t tell you that.

SOURCE

The declassified documents actually shows that not only the USA & Germany, but also UK and France promised russia that they wouldn't move an Inch eastwards.... Today, they've moved far into east and are looking to move farther to the Russian doorstep. Russia is 100% right to tell the USA to keep to its promise.

Cc; Lalasticlala, Mynd44, emae009, seunny4lif....

This post should enlighten all those who know nothing about what's actually going on

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

They are lucky Putin is calm

MangekyoAlt:
The declassified documents actually shows that not only the USA & Germany, but also UK and France promised russia that they wouldn't move an Inch eastwards.... Today, they've moved far into east and are looking to move farther to the Russian doorstep. Russia is 100% right to tell the USA to keep to its promise.

Cc; Lalasticlala, Mynd44, emae009, seunny4lif....

This post should enlighten all those who know nothing about what's actually going on

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

seunny4lif:
They are lucky Putin is calm

Very lucky. What they're doing, wars have been started for far less

MangekyoAlt:

Very lucky. What they're doing, wars have been started for far less

Imagine Russia putting missiles in Mexico or Cuba.
The USA and her vassal states are just living their double standards lives.

seunny4lif:

Imagine Russia putting missiles in Mexico or Cuba.
The USA and her vassal states are just living their double standards lives.

It is the pro western elements, most from Nigeria that still support them without reading history I blame. USA had invaded Cuba before because of a misunderstanding they had with them. Which of course ended in a colossal failure.

Latee when their aircraft flew over Cuba and captured Russian missiles installed in it, they threatened to invade Cuba this time with every military hardware in their arsenal if soviet doesn't remove them. They even blocked Russian ships access to Cuba and war was almost started because of it.

A soviet nuclear submarine almost fired nuclear missiles at US War ships that day, because the crews thought they wey under attack by us warships that were spamming all over it. The man that stopped the attack was later awarded... Read here https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-soviet-submarine-captain-who-averted-nuclear-war-awarded-future-of-life-prize

Evwn after russia agreed to remove the missiles from Cuba in exchange of the USA removing their own in turkey, Soviet union still made the USA promise them that they wont invade Cuba, which they obviously would've done.

So my brother, the USA has shown how it would react if anyone placed missile in the backyard. They would react by invading whoever agrees to host the missile.

seunny4lif:
They are lucky Putin is calm

Russia is now but a Regional power and that what we celebrate every morning!

MangekyoAlt:

It is the pro western elements, most from Nigeria that still support them without reading history I blame. USA had invaded Cuba before because of a misunderstanding they had with them. Which of course ended in a colossal failure.

Latee when their aircraft flew over Cuba and captured Russian missiles installed in it, they threatened to invade Cuba this time with every military hardware in their arsenal if soviet doesn't remove them. They even blocked Russian ships access to Cuba and war was almost started because of it.

A soviet nuclear submarine almost fired nuclear missiles at US War ships that day, because the crews thought they wey under attack by us warships that were spamming all over it. The man that stopped the attack was later awarded... Read here https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-soviet-submarine-captain-who-averted-nuclear-war-awarded-future-of-life-prize

Evwn after russia agreed to remove the missiles from Cuba in exchange of the USA removing their own in turkey, Soviet union still made the USA promise them that they wont invade Cuba, which they obviously would've done.

So my brother, the USA has shown how it would react if anyone placed missile in the backyard. They would react by invading whoever agrees to host the missile.

US never invaded Cuba... They carried out a covert ops which didn't go well. There's no US "invasion" that wasn't and won't be a success.

If they mean you, you're done!

emae009:



US never invaded Cuba... They carried out a covert ops which didn't go well. There's no US "invasion" that wasn't and won't be a success.

If they mean you, you're done!

They invaded with proxy, so yes.
USA paid and gave their military equipments to some fascists to go after the legitimate govt of Cuba

emae009:



There's no US "invasion" that wasn't and won't be a success.

If USA invaded russia, it would succeed then?

MangekyoAlt:
The declassified documents actually shows that not only the USA & Germany, but also UK and France promised russia that they wouldn't move an Inch eastwards.... Today, they've moved far into east and are looking to move farther to the Russian doorstep. Russia is 100% right to tell the USA to keep to its promise.

Cc; Lalasticlala, Mynd44, emae009, seunny4lif....

This post should enlighten all those who know nothing about what's actually going on

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

I don't think anybody has ever said there wasn't an agreement.

You go digging on what's well known and come up with questions nobody asked. On the bright side, it's good you're reading.

while you're reading how NATO is the devil and Russia is a Saint. Please tell us the events that lead to the first intrusion East thus breaking the agreement.

All dz one sided research doesn't serve any real purpose than propaganda or is that what you're trying to push??

MangekyoAlt:


If USA invaded russia, it would succeed then?

If Russia decide to fund a terror group that attack mainland US. Then obviously they'll succeed even with a bloodied nose

emae009:


I don't think anybody has ever said there wasn't an agreement.

You go digging on what's well known and come up with questions nobody asked. On the bright side, it's good you're reading.

while you're reading how NATO is the devil and Russia is a Saint. Please tell us the events that lead to the first intrusion East thus breaking the agreement.

All dz one sided research doesn't serve any real purpose than propaganda or is that what you're trying to push??

Did I say you specifically didn't know? I said there are many on Nairaland who don't know and it's true

emae009:


If Russia decide to fund a terror group that attack mainland US. Then obviously they'll succeed even with a bloodied nose

When I say invade, I meant invade and occupy. Or no, invade and actualize your goal which wouldn't be just invading and leaving.

US has invaded many countries without actualizing their goals. E.g Vietnam, Korea etc
Germany invaded the USSR but couldn't actualize their goal

emae009:



Russia is now but a Regional power and that what we celebrate every morning!

So because russia is a regional power you don't expect them to stand up to the US if they're going against their interest......
Russia is even growing stronger both militarily and economically. Infact russia has never been more powerful since USSR broke up. So seunny4lif is right. The only reason USA gets away with their atrocities is because putin is calm!
Any war between Russia could end in a big loss for USA. Even they admit to it

MangekyoAlt:

When I say invade, I meant invade and occupy. Or no, invade and actualize your goal which wouldn't be just invading and leaving.

US has invaded many countries without actualizing their goals. E.g Vietnam, Korea etc
Germany invaded the USSR but couldn't actualize their goal

the only war the US lost was Vietnam because of pride and stubbornness. But they learned their lessons and thanks to them you're enjoying world peace.

Nobody is perfect but somehow you guys want America to be in all situations. The USSR invaded Afghanistan and lost, Russia has proscribed the Talibans, they proscribed Al Qaeda and ISIS but when they war on terror championed by the US was going on... what contribution did Russia do?
I can't think of one.
But Al Qaeda has been decimated same with ISIS.
They US with her allies drove the Talibans out of power for 20years and maintained peace in Afghanistan.

But what do they get for all these. More hate each passing day.

emae009:


the only war the US lost was Vietnam because of pride and stubbornness. But they learned their lessons and thanks to them you're enjoying world peace.

Nobody is perfect but somehow you guys want America to be in all situations. The USSR invaded Afghanistan and lost, Russia has proscribed the Talibans, they proscribed Al Qaeda and ISIS but when they war on terror championed by the US was going on... what contribution did Russia do?
I can't think of one.
But Al Qaeda has been decimated same with ISIS.
They US with her allies drove the Talibans out of power for 20years and maintained peace in Afghanistan.

But what do they get for all these. More hate each passing day.

For Christ's sake don't think I hate the USA or I'm also not happy that they're world power! I would prefer them remain world power sef

What I am against and you should admit too is the actions russia is taken right now for their security and interests have been taken by the USA in the past. It was clear in Cuba. So they (the western media's) should stop the fuelling the anti-russian sentiments because of something that the USA would do and have done when they were in their position

The USA fights terrorist, good! They promote peace yes. But I hope you don't think because of all these they shouldnt keep to their promises? They couldn't keep to any of it, keeping off Ukraine would be the least they can do.

BTW Russia can fight terrorists like the USA do its just the finance that does not permit it.

The Taliban defeated the USA hands down!
It's just money that kept the USA hanging on for that long! Even if USA had remained for at least another 40 more years, they would've still been defeated sooner or later and would only end up wasting their taxpayers money.

And BTW don't make it look like it is just the USA that fights for the free world with their resources and man power.

They do it with Britain, France and other Nato nations.

Also, USA raised anti Russian sentiments in Afghanistan when the Soviets was there

MangekyoAlt:


For Christ's sake don't think I hate the USA or I'm also not happy that they're world power! I would prefer them remain world power sef

What I am against and you should admit too is the actions russia is taken right now for their security and interests have been taken by the USA in the past. It was clear in Cuba. So they (the western media's) should stop the fuelling the anti-russian sentiments because of something that the USA would do and have done when they were in their position

The USA fights terrorist, good! They promote peace yes. But I hope you don't think because of all these they shouldnt keep to their promises? They couldn't keep to any of it, keeping off Ukraine would be the least they can do.

BTW Russia can fight terrorists like the USA do its just the finance that does not permit it.

The Taliban defeated the USA hands down!
It's just money that kept the USA hanging on for that long! Even if USA had remained for at least another 40 more years, they would've still been defeated sooner or later and would only end up wasting their taxpayers money.

And BTW don't make it look like it is just the USA that fights for the free world with their resources and man power.

They do it with Britain, France and other Nato nations.

Also, USA raised anti Russian sentiments in Afghanistan when the Soviets was there

For Christ's sake don't think I hate the USA or I'm also not happy that they're world power! I would prefer them remain world power sef
you say this and then go on and on writing the opposite in the same comment. Like you say, you prefer them to remain world power. So please tell me one leader, even if it's something as little as group leader that 100% right?
That's my problem with you all. Every time US this, US that. They can't do that to Russia or China.
"All these western supporters especially those in Nigeria". How long have Nigeria been fighting boko haram. imagine if Al Qaeda and ISIS were here and BK pledge allegiance to them. Where would Nigeria be?

What I am against and you should admit too is the actions russia is taken right now for their security and interests have been taken by the USA in the past. It was clear in Cuba. So they (the western media's) should stop the fuelling the anti-russian sentiments because of something that the USA would do and have done when they were in their position.
Maybe you should read more about Cuba. Right now, if I may ask, who is Cuba ally? isn't it Russia? But you keep on comparing Cuba to Ukraine in every thread. Are US missiles in Ukraine yet? No.
So why is Russia worried.
US didn't want USSR that closed to her hence why it was a covert op. it failed and Cuba are allowed to make their choice. Which they have done. So what's wrong in that sense with Ukraine joining NATO?

BTW Russia can fight terrorists like the USA do its just the finance that does not permit it.
then maybe just maybe you can cut the ones that put their finances to make the world safe some slacks or is that too much to ask?

The Taliban defeated the USA hands down!
It's just money that kept the USA hanging on for that long! Even if USA had remained for at least another 40 more years, they would've still been defeated sooner or later and would only end up wasting their taxpayers money.

And BTW don't make it look like it is just the USA that fights for the free world with their resources and man power.[\b]

[b] They do it with Britain, France and other Nato nations.
Like I said, youre happy the US is world power then you go on to try and discredit them in anyway possible.
I won't argue with you about the Talibans because to you guys, the US defeat is always different from anyone else. It's not surprising from people who consider a war where a US backed South Korea gained more territory after than before the war, a US defeat.
You may want to check how much the US contribute to NATO before trying to discredit them.

emae009:


you say this and then go on and on writing the opposite in the same comment. Like you say, you prefer them to remain world power. So please tell me one leader, even if it's something as little as group leader that 100% right?
That's my problem with you all. Every time US this, US that. They can't do that to Russia or China.
"All these western supporters especially those in Nigeria". How long have Nigeria been fighting boko haram. imagine if Al Qaeda and ISIS were here and BK pledge allegiance to them. Where would Nigeria be?

Every time US this US that? The criticism the US gets isn't even half of what russia gets, yet no one complains. Just stick with the promises you made by your own self you don't think they should. The U.S. Being world power doesn't place them above criticism and you shouldnt call me a hater for criticizing them for the obvious hypocrites and promise breaker that they are! Us even funded that AL queda terrorists. They were a tool that the USA wanted to use until it backfired and they had to clean up their own mess!

Maybe you should read more about Cuba. Right now, if I may ask, who is Cuba ally? isn't it Russia? But you keep on comparing Cuba to Ukraine in every thread. Are US missiles in Ukraine yet? No.

And where was it OFFICIALLY said that the USA wouldn't install missiles there? Give me source. Even if they said it, it would be extremely stupid of putin to take it seeing how they broke their previous promises. Missiles are currently in Poland so Suck it up.

So why is Russia worried.

why are they worried? You're legit asking this?

US didn't want USSR that closed to her hence why it was a covert op. it failed and Cuba are allowed to make their choice. Which they have done. So what's wrong in that sense with Ukraine joining NATO?

USA allowed Cuba to make her choices? Guy are you just dropping jokes here or you're actually being dead serious? I hope you aren't because Cuba being a sovereign state made the choice to alow USSR install missiles in their own land and the US didn't have any of it, did they? No. They wouldve ended up invading Cuba and even you couldn't deny that. You claim Cuba are free but are still made to suffer for their actions by the USA. Tell me why Cuba is still on sanctions? Go on I'm all ears

then maybe just maybe you can cut the ones that put their finances to make the world safe some slacks or is that too much to ask?

I do not deny them this criticizing their wrong doings shouldn't make you think I don't appreciate the efforts they make to fight terrorism even when they end up doing more harm than good, sometimes!

Like I said, youre happy the US is world power then you go on to try and discredit them in anyway possible.
I won't argue with you about the Talibans because to you guys, the US defeat is always different from anyone else. It's not surprising from people who consider a war where a US backed South Korea gained more territory after than before the war, a US defeat.
You may want to check how much the US contribute to NATO before trying to discredit them.

Criticising their wrongdoing yes I'll continue doing that. I'm in no way discrediting the good they've done or are doing!
Oga Taliban gave them the defeat of their lives. They spent more than 1trillion dollars + the death of many us troops with nothing to show for it. Infacr they've even made the Taliban stronger than they were prior to us intervention lol
USA joined the Korean War to unify the south and the north. Objective failed. Mission failed and they got beat back. A sound defeat for me.

If USA contributes so much that the efforts put in by other Nato countries are barely even making any difference since most of the resources and man power comes from them, then dissolves Nato so that they can claim the glory whenever they record success.

Untill that happens, the USA & NATO both contribute to the success of their operations as well as defeats and no one can convince me that USA single handedly wins them

MangekyoAlt:

Every time US this US that? The criticism the US gets isn't even half of what russia gets, yet no one complains. Just stick with the promises you made by your own self you don't think they should. The U.S. Being world power doesn't place them above criticism and you shouldnt call me a hater for criticizing them for the obvious hypocrites and promise breaker that they are! Us even funded that AL queda terrorists. They were a tool that the USA wanted to use until it backfired and they had to clean up their own mess!


And where was it OFFICIALLY said that the USA wouldn't install missiles there? Give me source. Even if they said it, it would be extremely stupid of putin to take it seeing how they broke their previous promises. Missiles are currently in Poland so Suck it up.

why are they worried? You're legit asking this?


USA allowed Cuba to make her choices? Guy are you just dropping jokes here or you're actually being dead serious? I hope you aren't because Cuba being a sovereign state made the choice to alow USSR install missiles in their own land and the US didn't have any of it, did they? No. They wouldve ended up invading Cuba and even you couldn't deny that. You claim Cuba are free but are still made to suffer for their actions by the USA. Tell me why Cuba is still on sanctions? Go on I'm all ears

I do not deny them this criticizing their wrong doings shouldn't make you think I don't appreciate the efforts they make to fight terrorism even when they end up doing more harm than good, sometimes!


Criticising their wrongdoing yes I'll continue doing that. I'm in no way discrediting the good they've done or are doing!
Oga Taliban gave them the defeat of their lives. They spent more than 1trillion dollars + the death of many us troops with nothing to show for it. Infacr they've even made the Taliban stronger than they were prior to us intervention lol
USA joined the Korean War to unify the south and the north. Objective failed. Mission failed and they got beat back. A sound defeat for me.

If USA contributes so much that the efforts put in by other Nato countries are barely even making any difference since most of the resources and man power comes from them, then dissolves Nato so that they can claim the glory whenever they record success.

Untill that happens, the USA & NATO both contribute to the success of their operations as well as defeats and no one can convince me that USA single handedly wins them

America prepared to invade Cuba only when Soviet missiles were in Cuba.
Ukraine hasn't join NATO, there's no concrete intelligence that ballistic missiles will be placed Ukraine yet Russian back millitias have been causing instability in Ukraine for how many years now? No criticism from you right because it's America's fault. Russia has to do whatever it takes for its security..

I don't know where you people get your info from, the only missiles in Poland is the AEGIS ground based air defense system. First of its kind. I haven't heard where an anti-ballistic missile system was used for attack instead of defense. Maybe you guys must have.

Why is Cuba under sanctions? it's there on the net, you can read all about it.

Like I said, you should read the Korean War. you will know better...

Wow! what a defeat. Oust a sitting government, install democracy and advocate for human rights and girl child protection. Maintain peace for 20years. Build an Afghan military from the scratch, equipping them with weapons to defend their new found freedom. After 20 years, decide it's time to go home, at least the people have a military to fight for them. The suppose military didn't put up any resistance but sure it's a US defeat.
Do you hear yourself when you make sure statement? I'm curious.

America don't like Russia. America don't want Russia to progress, yen yen yen. But it's the same America that procured M-17 helicopters from Russia for the Afghan military which will now be given to another country.

If USA contributes so much that the efforts put in by other Nato countries are barely even making any difference since most of the resources and man power comes from them, then dissolves Nato so that they can claim the glory whenever they record success.
At this point I don't know what to tell you if you think NATO is just a military strategy for the US or making financial aids and offering assistance to other countries is about looking like the good guys.
No wonder you were going on and on in the other thread about how China and Russia alternative banking system will bring down the US. Maybe you should check the Top 10 countries with the highest spending bills and see how many are China allies?

emae009:


America prepared to invade Cuba only when Soviet missiles were in Cuba.
Ukraine hasn't join NATO, there's no concrete intelligence that ballistic missiles will be placed Ukraine yet Russian back millitias have been causing instability in Ukraine for how many years now? No criticism from you right because it's America's fault. Russia has to do whatever it takes for its security..

stop being a hypocrite. USA invaded Cuba via proxy because their leader was anti-Us. Obviously they would've threatened to invade if they knew the USSR was planning to install them before hand! Obviously. So they were going to invade after they knew the missiles was there and wouldve invaded to overthrow the govt had they known before hand that he agreed to allow USSR bring in their missiles...

I don't know where you people get your info from, the only missiles in Poland is the AEGIS ground based air defense system. First of its kind. I haven't heard where an anti-ballistic missile system was used for attack instead of defense. Maybe you guys must have.

What is an AEGIS SAM doing in Poland?

Why is Cuba under sanctions? it's there on the net, you can read all about it.

We all know why they're still on sanction. I wanted you to write it yourself

Like I said, you should read the Korean War. you will know better...

I have read the Korean War and I know everything that there is to know about it. I have even watched documentaries on YouTube.

Wow! what a defeat. Oust a sitting government, install democracy and advocate for human rights and girl child protection. Maintain peace for 20years. Build an Afghan military from the scratch, equipping them with weapons to defend their new found freedom. After 20 years, decide it's time to go home, at least the people have a military to fight for them. The suppose military didn't put up any resistance but sure it's a US defeat.
Do you hear yourself when you make sure statement? I'm curious.

a sound defeat! Let me tell you, all what wrote don't matter, it is the end that matters. The USA managed to overthrow Taliban and take country but at the end they were beaten out. At the end of the day, the USA actualized nothing! They wasted their taxpayers money, American lives were wasted.

The US installed democracy, advocated for human and girl child rights yet 20years later, they're worse than they met Afghan in.

They built the Afghan military yet Sane Afghan military handed over their equipments to the Taliban thus even making them more stronger.

After 20years, they didn't just decide to go home they realized not just realizing but also admitting to themselves that they were wasting their time and resources. Taliban winning was inevitable. Had USA remained for let's say another 20years, they would've spent another 1ttillion usd and by the time they left the result would be no different than it currently is.

America don't like Russia. America don't want Russia to progress, yen yen yen. But it's the same America that procured M-17 helicopters from Russia for the Afghan military which will now be given to another country.

So wait you're trying to tell me now that America likes Russia? confirm before I reply

At this point I don't know what to tell you if you think NATO is just a military strategy for the US or making financial aids and offering assistance to other countries is about looking like the good guys.
No wonder you were going on and on in the other thread about how China and Russia alternative banking system will bring down the US. Maybe you should check the Top 10 countries with the highest spending bills and see how many are China allies?

This reply shows you know nothing about Nato. Let me tell you NATO is a military anti-Russian bloc, it's only goal is to threaten and contain Russia. Before it was the USSR, now its russia so discredit any contrary information.

I didn't say an alternative to SWIFT would bring down the US wtf anyway wherever I said that I was probably not very serious
It would hurt us badly because dollar value would decrease which is a US weaoinary tool

emae009:



Russia is now but a Regional power and that what we celebrate every morning!

Wow
Well, the regional power dared the USA and her allies to put missiles in Ukraine
The regional power told the almighty USA that Assad is going no where and came to aid Syria government.
The super power only made noise about the regional power but can’t do anything about it.
The regional power beat the shit out of USA, NATO and Israel trained Georgia troops within 4 days almost captured the Capital if not for French and German government good relationship with Russia.
All what the super power can do it cry on CNN and BBC

US against China
US against Russia
US against Iran
US against North Korea
US against Cambodia
US against Cuba
US against Venezuela
US against Serbia
What is wrong with this nation...any country that is growing up economically must be taken apart and their people introduced to corruption and suffering.
If you don't follow their command.. sanctions Will be used...they do shits around the world And get away with it... millions murdered by them in Syria Iraq Libya Afghanistan innocent civilians still not even UN can do them Jack.

Countries in Africa are no threat...they will just trample upon them..so they're corced to do US bidding or Risk being dealt with.. that's why corruption is the new hazards in supposed African democracy.

Can't US let the world have peace for once? Let the UN do it's job...not US a country of it's own interfering in other countries.. with impunity.

seunny4lif:

Wow
Well, the regional power dared the USA and her allies to put missiles in Ukraine
The regional power told the almighty USA that Assad is going no where and came to aid Syria government.
The super power only made noise about the regional power but can’t do anything about it.
The regional power beat the shit out of USA, NATO and Israel trained Georgia troops within 4 days almost captured the Capital if not for French and German government good relationship with Russia.
All what the super power can do it cry on CNN and BBC

USA even admitted that Russia or China can give them a sound defeat in a war, and that they would do everything in their power to avoid a direct conflict with Russia, most especially.
When USA did nothing more than wail when Russia entered Georgia and Ukraine, na there I know say USA dey fear a Regional power like Russia

seunny4lif:

Wow
Well, the regional power dared the USA and her allies to put missiles in Ukraine
The regional power told the almighty USA that Assad is going no where and came to aid Syria government.
The super power only made noise about the regional power but can’t do anything about it.
The regional power beat the shit out of USA, NATO and Israel trained Georgia troops within 4 days almost captured the Capital if not for French and German government good relationship with Russia.
All what the super power can do it cry on CNN and BBC

Like a say Regional power that's why y'all scrape the bottom of the barrel just to look for a win.
Nobody was looking to put missiles in Ukraine except anti-ballistic missiles. I don't know how you guys think sometimes.

Well Ukraine will definitely join NATO. After that we'll wait for a crack within the remaining loyalists to steal another one. I'm eyeing you Armenia

MangekyoAlt:
stop being a hypocrite. USA invaded Cuba via proxy because their leader was anti-Us. Obviously they would've threatened to invade if they knew the USSR was planning to install them before hand! Obviously. So they were going to invade after they knew the missiles was there and wouldve invaded to overthrow the govt had they known before hand that he agreed to allow USSR bring in their missiles...


What is an AEGIS SAM doing in Poland?


We all know why they're still on sanction. I wanted you to write it yourself


I have read the Korean War and I know everything that there is to know about it. I have even watched documentaries on YouTube.

a sound defeat! Let me tell you, all what wrote don't matter, it is the end that matters. The USA managed to overthrow Taliban and take country but at the end they were beaten out. At the end of the day, the USA actualized nothing! They wasted their taxpayers money, American lives were wasted.

The US installed democracy, advocated for human and girl child rights yet 20years later, they're worse than they met Afghan in.

They built the Afghan military yet Sane Afghan military handed over their equipments to the Taliban thus even making them more stronger.

After 20years, they didn't just decide to go home they realized not just realizing but also admitting to themselves that they were wasting their time and resources. Taliban winning was inevitable. Had USA remained for let's say another 20years, they would've spent another 1ttillion usd and by the time they left the result would be no different than it currently is.


So wait you're trying to tell me now that America likes Russia? confirm before I reply


This reply shows you know nothing about Nato. Let me tell you NATO is a military anti-Russian bloc, it's only goal is to threaten and contain Russia. Before it was the USSR, now its russia so discredit any contrary information.

I didn't say an alternative to SWIFT would bring down the US wtf anyway wherever I said that I was probably not very serious
It would hurt us badly because dollar value would decrease which is a US weaoinary tool

when I asked if you listen to what you say this is what I mean. For years now, Russia backed militias have been causing instability in Ukraine to prevent them from joining NATO.
Same thing the US did with Cuba (covert op to change the regime). It failed.
But you don't criticize Russia because they are right always but blame the US for everything.
Same idea different tactic. But you're too blind to see that.

smh... you'll be on this site singing praises of Russia SAMs but you're asking me what a SAM is doing in Poland. I won't stoop that low to justify that with an answer.

with what you said, I doubt you have any notion of the Korean War unless you're just pushing agenda as usual.

Sure! let's overlook women not being allowed to work anymore. Some girls not allowed to return back to school. Their Volleyball team having to fled to Qatar. the oppression and what not. All that doesn't matter right. You're good. Keep it up.

Dude, you do actually read sometimes? it's a serious question at this point. You said the US should quit NATO and stand on its own. And I tried telling you that NATO to the US isn't just a military alliance and you're seriously educating me about NATO. Interesting

emae009:


when I asked if you listen to what you say this is what I mean. For years now, Russia backed militias have been causing instability in Ukraine to prevent them from joining NATO.
Same thing the US did with Cuba (covert op to change the regime). It failed.
But you don't criticize Russia because they are right always but blame the US for everything.
Same idea different tactic. But you're too blind to see that.

you're comparing the separatists fighting in Ukraine to the the bay of pigs? Pathetic! You seem to have no idea on what's actually happening so let me educate you a little I refuse to allow you remain an illiterate.
The fighting in Ukraine are between pro Russian separatists that have declared independence from Ukraine and not even joining with Russia as did Crimea after a referendum. Ukraine brought her mitary upon them. Russia has openly said it countless times that anywhere Russians even though not exactly citizens of mainland russia are being maltreated or killed, they would intervene like they did in Georgia. So russia gave SAM's and weapons to the seperatists to defend themselves and have since been doing that. They have so shot down Ukraine military aircrafts that Ukraine had to stop Using fighter jets against them sef
Meanwhile, Russia didn't even recognized their independence. Infact it called upon Ukraine to strike a deal with them which Ukraine doesn't want to for some reasons known to them. You claim it is russia that is fuelling it. Was it russia that failed to agree to the Minsk agreement? No Ukraine didn't agree to the MINSK Deal since it was formed and only made effort about 2 months ago to implement it and yet you blame russia? Just shut the hell up dude

smh... you'll be on this site singing praises of Russia SAMs but you're asking me what a SAM is doing in Poland. I won't stoop that low to justify that with an answer.

Russian SAM's are the best in the world but are they in Canada? How about Mexico?
USA sanctioned turkey for buying it hahahaha

with what you said, I doubt you have any notion of the Korean War unless you're just pushing agenda as usual.

I'm not pushing my agenda but let me make things clear. The USA, UN & South Korean forces managed to drive North Korean forces out of S Korea, I'll give them that win but the USA also made one of the great blunders in world history - it invaded North Korea for some reasons known to them. In so doing the US/UN forces drove northwards approaching the border with China despite warnings China would intervene. Worse it did so late in the year as the weather worsened reducing the US main advantage over China - airpower.

The Chinese massively intervened driving the US and allied forces South, into South Korea. Eventually, the Chinese advance petered out as weather improved and additional forces were moved to Korea. the US advance automatically stopped. Negotiations started to end the war and dragged on for 2 years before a cease-fire was signed. Both south Korea and north korea arent United today and while the USA succeeded in holding off nk, it failed to defeat them as per that was their plan when their moved northwards.

Sure! let's overlook women not being allowed to work anymore. Some girls not allowed to return back to school. Their Volleyball team having to fled to Qatar. the oppression and what not. All that doesn't matter right. You're good. Keep it up.

A defeat is a defeat, shut the hell up!
Let's use Nigeria as an example.
Nigerian govt has been holding boko haram at bay, we've failed to exterminate them but yes we're holding them. The govt is making sure thousands are safe from them and that has been done for more than 10 years now.
Now if boko haram suddenly starts killing citizens by let's say 10k/day and says to the Nigerian govt, hand over power and we'll stop!
The govt seeing how thousands are murdered daily decides to do it and save lives. Immediately It does that, would cnn tell you that boko haram didn't defeat them just because the Nigerian govt managed to contain them for 11years, saved thousands of lives from their Brutality? No. While the govt made life better for northerners by protecting them from those terrorists, it is the end result that matters.

The USA contained the Taliban but couldn't defeat them. Sure they made life better for Afghan people for they years that they had the Taliban out of power but at end of the day they pulled out UNCONDITIONALLY because they price they were paying to keep Taliban at bay or contain them was just too much. They couldn't defeat them even if they remained for another 100years!

Dude, you do actually read sometimes? it's a serious question at this point. You said the US should quit NATO and stand on its own. And I tried telling you that NATO to the US isn't just a military alliance and you're seriously educating me about NATO. Interesting

How dare you ask me if I read sometimes? I did not not the USA SHOULD quit Nato for ffs when did I say that point out to me, boy
Neither I said its just a military alliance. No.
I said any successful achievement made by US/NATO was made not just by the US but by all Nato countries whose effort contributed to the success. You made it look like the USA is Nato and all other Nato countries put in efforts to the successes they accomplished that barely even made any difference.
That is why I said, if other Nato countries make no differences or contribute little to nothing to the success of the alliance and its just the US, then why is US in NATO? It is in Nato because 2,3,4,5 heads are better than one and things would far more difficult for them if they weren't in NATO

MangekyoAlt:

It is the pro western elements, most from Nigeria that still support them without reading history I blame. USA had invaded Cuba before because of a misunderstanding they had with them. Which of course ended in a colossal failure.

Latee when their aircraft flew over Cuba and captured Russian missiles installed in it, they threatened to invade Cuba this time with every military hardware in their arsenal if soviet doesn't remove them. They even blocked Russian ships access to Cuba and war was almost started because of it.

A soviet nuclear submarine almost fired nuclear missiles at US War ships that day, because the crews thought they wey under attack by us warships that were spamming all over it. The man that stopped the attack was later awarded... Read here https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-soviet-submarine-captain-who-averted-nuclear-war-awarded-future-of-life-prize

Evwn after russia agreed to remove the missiles from Cuba in exchange of the USA removing their own in turkey, Soviet union still made the USA promise them that they wont invade Cuba, which they obviously would've done.

So my brother, the USA has shown how it would react if anyone placed missile in the backyard. They would react by invading whoever agrees to host the missile.

commendable write up, you have deep understanding in the area of international policy and diplomacy. If there is one thing the US fear the most is the capacity of their adversary to hit their mainland with any form of advance weapon.

The US don't want their rivals to have any alliance with any country close to them, the US would not accept or allow a Chinese military drill in a country like Nicaragua or Guatemala.