ChinenyeN:


Are you not a Nigerian? We speak at least two or three languages on average. You can’t honestly be surprised that there are Igbo people that understand languages other than Igbo. Please, don’t waste my time here.

ThickSharon123:
Okay, as a simple fact why is it that only in Nembe (which is Igbo speaking or bilingual too) and Bonny and Opobo, we do have the titleship called Amayanabo. And not in all Ijaw clans as some Ijaws posit, grabbing the word in its entirety.

These title is only found in so-called Ijaw speaking clans which bluntly speak Igbo. But not in all Ijaw clans, not even in the central Ijaw area in Delta? It begs the question.

ThickSharon123:
If you are a person of logic, you'll know intonation or a breath of words doesn't really count as a collective of word construct. If it did, the professor's from the start who made their findings, Crow and the likes would have objectively used such parameters to conclude that the Bonny and Opobo are related to this Jo men who leave in the creeks as they make their record to the letter.

ThickSharon123:
For example in Crows book, Mmiri is water in Igbo, Nembe, Opobo and Bonny call it MMgi I presume. So, with what you've just given there's a link to these city states as in connection to Igbos, right?

Central Ijaw    Southern Igbo    Eastern Ijaw Harmonizing
be ->           mi ->            me/mi
ni ->           ri (nasal r) ->  ngi/nji/ndi

Igboid:
ChinenyeN, you claim to be an academia, I double dare you to provide one Colonial document linking Bonny or Opobo to your Ijaw( Jos-people).

ChinenyeN:
I was among the first, if not the very first person to provide detailed AND VERIFIABLE synopsis of oral traditions in the Lower Niger that show that Igbo-speaking communities were present in Bonny before the Portuguese arrived, thereby predating the slave trade. Most of what you see here on NL is a repeat of what I shared over a decade ago when most Igbo people here were completely uninformed about the historical, cultural and linguistic relations in the eastern part of the Lower Niger.

ChinenyeN:
I come from a community that has oral traditions supporting our indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking presence in Bonny and Opobo. There are oral traditions from Ijaw that verify Ijaw-speaking people coming into contact with Igbo-speaking people in Ndoki area before migrating to Bonny which further supports the presence of indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking people in Bonny.

ChinenyeN:
So I'll just go ahead and respond to specific things concerning language and some history, and leave the other things that I am not sure of, because I don't know what you're getting at with those. I'll just wait for a better understanding before I comment. As for the specific things I will respond to now...



I'm not certain where you're getting this from. The amanyanabo institution exists in communities that are both Ijaw and Igbo-speaking (such Bonny and Opobo) as well as communities that speak only or primarily a dialect of Ijaw (such as Kalabari, Bile, etc). But to answer your question about why you may not see amanyanabo in all Ijaw communities, it is actually well established that amanyanabo is a recent institution. It is called "modern Ijaw kingship" for a reason. As a recent institution, it was absent in many Ijaw-speaking communities even up to the 19th century. It is similar to how ezeship was not common in many Igbo-speaking communities until the colonial era, hence why many communities did not get their first eze until well-after the warrant chief era. So yes, not all Ijaw communities had an amanyanabo, just like how not all Igbo communities had an eze.



No one said that a breath is a word construct. Perhaps you are not actually understanding how phonetics is an important part of linguistics. A full word is not all there is in studying language. Phonetics plays a central role in methodologies and techniques such as glottochronology. Phonetics plays a central role in the reconstruction of proto-languages. So I hope you are not misunderstanding things. It's not just about words, it is also about understanding the monopolization of sound (i.e. phonetic conventions) within a given language. You need such an understanding to investigate/interrogate etymologies.



I'm not quite sure where to begin with this, because it is almost as though you're not seeing how linguistics is a wholistic discipline. You don't just look at two words that either look or sound the same in your head and then throw out a conclusion. In both this post and in a previous post I made, I stated that you need to understand the (tonal, phonetic, grammar) conventions within a language group and understand the language conventions within a corresponding language group in order to identify whether something is a loan word, a true cognate, or independent innovation. And you will need to also justify a proposed etymology that takes these various factors into consideration.

In this particular example you present with the term "water", we can actually get a sense of a potentially shared etymology from a far older, proto language within the Niger-Congo family. Let's examine the linguistic features of the various terms for "water" between the Igbo and Ijo lects.

In Igbo, water is rendered variously as mmiri, mmili, mili, miri, mini and muri. The tone structure and phonetics for these is somewhat diverse. For example, the Ukwuani and Onicha will both say "mmili", but Onicha will render it with a HHM tone structure, while Ukwuani has been recorded as rendering it with a HHL tone structure. There is however a general consistency of a HM tone structure across lects. Owerre will use the "mmiri" variant with two /m/ sounds, but nasalize the /r/. Ngwa, Echie, Asa, Ndoki, etc. will use the "miri" variant with only one /m/ and nasalize the /r/ or the "mini" variant. Ika has been recorded as using the "miri" variant with only one /m/ and not nasalizing the /r/. So overall, we see there is a great deal of variety in phonetics and tone.

Now in Ijaw, water is rendered with a similar sort of variety in phonetics and tone. You will see mingi, minji, mindi, mendi, beni, bini and mini. The phonetics actually make the list more varied than what you see here. For instance with beni, the /b/ is rendered as an implosive in central and some western Ijaw lects, and the central and western Ijaw use the beni form more consistently. The form transitions a bit from beni to mendi within the Nembe axis, before transitioning completely to mingi/minji in Kalabari and Ibani. Okrika has a mixture of the /me/ form from Nembe axis with the /ngi/ from Ibani axis. That's phonetics. As far as tone structure, there is some decent variation. For example, Kalabari and Ibani use all low tones minji/mingi LLL, most of central and western use all low tones for beni LL, and in a few examples will you see a LH tone structure (such as Okrika), and only a few will have all high tones when rendering beni HH. However, most of the Ijaw lects consistently favor a LL tone structure (mingi - eastern Ijaw, beni - central Ijaw).

Here is what we can deduce from this. We can probably suspect that the word for water might have a shared cognate from a long-forgotten proto-language period. There is enough consistency in proto-Igbo (mmidi) and proto-Ijaw (mbedi) reconstructions to deduce this potentially shared etymology. However, using clear and consistent phonetic and tonal trend in Ijaw that show the transition of beni -> mendi -> mingi. As well as a clear and consistent phonetic and tonal trend in Igbo that show the variations of mmili -> mmiri -> miri. It is easier to conclude that the Ijaw and Igbo terms ultimately developed or innovated separately.

One caveat I might add is that we can suspect a potentially later Igbo influence on the more eastern Ijaw variants who likely had greater historical contact with southern Igbo-speaking communities. We can deduce this as a later influence, because the beni variants far outnumber the mingi/minji/mendi/mengi variants. It seems reasonable to suspect that a supposed later Igbo influence triggered a phonetic innovation in the eastern Ijaw region that harmonized it in some way with southern Igbo variants. Examine the table below.

Central Ijaw    Southern Igbo    Eastern Ijaw Harmonizing
be ->           mi ->            me/mi
ni ->           ri (nasal r) ->  ngi/nji/ndi

The southern Igbo lects either say "mini" or "miri", and those that say "miri" pronounce it with a heavy nasal /r/, which is etymologically descended from an implosive /d/ sound according to linguists. If we take this proto-reconstruction (implosive /d/) into consideration, it suggests that this speculative harmonization might have actually occurred in pre-history and not modern day. There is a case to be made that Ijaw speakers (primarily using the "beni" variant) might have come into contact with some proto-Igbo speakers using the "midi" variant (implosive /d/), and that initial and ongoing contact might have facilitated the harmonizing effect in eastern Ijaw speech, while they maintained the characteristic low tones from the "beni" variant. Those proto-Igbo speakers who they came in contact with would survive on as the southern Igbo lects from "midi" (implosive /d/) to "mini" and "miri" (the nasal r).

So you see, the analysis of etymology is not something where you just look at two or more words and say "oh, those sound or look alike, they're probably related". To analyze actual etymology, you will need to look at and interrogate language trends and conventions, reconstruct and propose proto-language variants, analyze potential historical contacts, etc. In the case of the terms for "water", we can see that there might be the case of a shared etymology, but it cannot be denied that the terms developed independently and separately between the two language communities. Yet, we can also speculate on likelihood of some harmonizing in pre-history in the axis where the two language communities have known historical contact.

In fact, where is AjaanaOka? This could be another potential case study for interrogating the hypothesis of a southern entry for proto-Igboid.

Igboid:


The word for king in Opobo and Bonny remains Eze.
Amayanabo is a title for a king.
Just as Enanchioke is a title for a king in Ohafia.
Ijaws are strangers in Opobo and Bonny living on borrowed time.

Igboid:


No body is taught his language by outsiders (Bayelsans in this case).
Your language is called your mother tongue, because you learn it from your mother at home.

Bonny and Opobo speak Igbo as mother tongue.
Ijaw Fraudulent attempt at imposing the dead Kalabari language that you are calling "Ibani language" today, will continue to fail like it has failed since past decades.

This is Opobo today.

���-��-���� ����������

In line with the way, Opobians took our Nwaotam to Bonny in 1941. The Dappa-Ye-Amakiri Ikina today 7th January 2022 has introduced a new masquerade (Rafia Play) from Bonny to Opobo. The masquerade has two-face; the human face and Agu face, which gave it the name "Agu Na Madu.

Stay Tuned, We’ll bring Live Stream.

ThickSharon123:
And for the etymology of languages, that isn't a necessary tool that breaks down the Amayanabo issue.

ThickSharon123:
Amayanabo in Crows or is it another author book, was said to be the "Land of two kings" it wasn't the Igbo defenders that made that.

ChinenyeN:
ThickSharon123, so it seems you’re both dismissive of the role of etymology, but then choosing to pick it up when it suits you. Let me show two quotes from you here.



In this quote here, you say that etymology not a tool for decomposing the historical context of the amanyanabo institution.



In this quote here, you then turn around to say that Captain Hugh Crow provided an etymology for “amanyanabo”, by saying that he, in the book he authored, gave a translation of “Land of Two Kings”. In other words, you turn around to accept the role of etymology, specifically the etymology that is claimed to have been provided by Crow, as a necessary tool for discussing the historical context of amanyanaboship.

From my perspective, engaging in this conversation, you are in effect dodging any attempt to critically examine the claimed “ama onye naabo” etymology and are simply accepting it as an indisputable factoid. Here I thought this conversation was about examining its linguistic justifications (which is the purpose of a discussion of etymology), but it seems you are sidestepping that in order to discuss something else entirely.

So please clarify, if this discussion is no longer about etymology (which is what we started with), then what is it about? If we are no longer interrogating the justifications of one etymological interpretation against another, then what are we discussing here?

It is my belief that we will unknowingly end up not being on the same page, if we don’t clarify what our actual conversation is supposed to be about. Because I will be under the impression that we are discussing one thing (etymology), while you are under the impression that we are discussing something else (apparently, not etymology, judging by your latest post).

ThickSharon123:
What do you think the judge would do if he saw that, King People of blessed memory had bluntly told Crow that Amayanabo is "a land of two kings"? You ask yourself that question and make the decision here. And there are more overarching evidences that can't be disputed when it comes to the Bonny and Opobo proud Igbos territory.

ChinenyeN:
ThickSharon123, I see. So we were never dicussing the same thing to begin with. Here I was getting interested and excited, because I might have found someone else to have these sort of discussions with. Anyhow, thank you for providing that clarification. In that case, we do not need to continue the conversation, but I would like to take this opportunity now to ask a question of my own.

I am particularly interested in this quote below. You again re-affirm the claim that Crow provided the etymology of amanyanabo as "A Land of Two Kings", and you restate Bonny and Opobo's historical, non-slave, Igbo-speaking origins.



For the record, I do not dispute the historical, non-slave, Igbo-speaking origins of Umu Afo Ubani. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am an Ngwa man and our traditions assert that Ngwa people are part of the founding legacy of Bonny. Bonny oral traditions also show that Ijaw people came in contact with Ngwa people in what is now Ndoki before migrating in their company to Bonny. So no matter which tradition you choose to take seriously and no matter how anyone tries to change things, there is no denying the ancestral, non-slave Igbo-speaking founding legacy of Bonny. So this is not my concern. There should be no reason for us to revisit statements like this between ourselves going forward because we are both in agreement here.

Now the question I would like to ask is with regards to the first part of the above quote where Crow is claimed to have provided the etymology of amanyanbo as "A Land of Two Kings". I enjoy the study of language, language reconstruction, language development and preservation. So of course, something like this would certainly interest me, because it gives an insight into the past. I have a full-text digital copy of Crow's memoir (Memoirs of the Late Captain Hugh Crow of Liverpool). I've read it several times in the past and in the interest of our current discussion, I've re-read it again over the past few days. Regrettably, I did not note anywhere in the memoir where Crow provides an etymology for the expression "amanyanabo". Yes, he has a few chapters where he discusses Bonny, and one chapter in particular where he discusses the government, but no mention of amanyanabo or a translation/etymology of the expression.

So my question now is sort of a question and sort of a request.

In effect, are we both reading the same memoir? If not, please pass along or share the copy that you have. I can just as easily share mine from my DropBox, if it helps. I have a DropBox for Ngwa, Igbo and general Lower Niger language, culture and history documents that I have been actively maintaining and publicly sharing with others for nearly a decade now. Anyhow, I would like to get the chance to store your copy in my DropBox as well as read it, so I can see Crow's discussion of the amanyanabo historical context, the etymology he provides, as well as his notes on what he observed (or what he may have been told) that led him to provide such an etymology, as I am interested in topics and information such as this.

ChinenyeN:
Nmanma, ThickSharon123. This was such a nice discussion. I got to talk about some things I find interesting, even though we may not have entirely been on the same page. I appreciate the mental sciences. Pyschology, psychiatry, psycho-analysis, etc. It's not necessarily my forte, but I do enjoy reading those topics from time to time. Maybe some time in the future you and I could try to have an indepth discussion on what your forte. In particular, I am interested in the mental and social aspects that can prepare people for true nationhood and sovereignty. Especially us as Igbo people. Nigeria is just not it, but I don't think we are mentally prepared to do the needful to either change Nigeria or change some aspects of our own circumstance to give us breathing room, little by little. So I might like to pick your brain on what your thoughts are in that respect maybe some time in the future on another thread.

ChinenyeN:
So

One caveat I might add is that we can suspect a potentially later Igbo influence on the more eastern Ijaw variants who likely had greater historical contact with southern Igbo-speaking communities. We can deduce this as a later influence, because the beni variants far outnumber the mingi/minji/mendi/mengi variants. It seems reasonable to suspect that a supposed later Igbo influence triggered a phonetic innovation in the eastern Ijaw region that harmonized it in some way with southern Igbo variants. Examine the table below.

Central Ijaw    Southern Igbo    Eastern Ijaw Harmonizing
be ->           mi ->            me/mi
ni ->           ri (nasal r) ->  ngi/nji/ndi

The southern Igbo lects either say "mini" or "miri", and those that say "miri" pronounce it with a heavy nasal /r/, which is etymologically descended from an implosive /d/ sound according to linguists. If we take this proto-reconstruction (implosive /d/) into consideration, it suggests that this speculative harmonization might have actually occurred in pre-history and not modern day. There is a case to be made that Ijaw speakers (primarily using the "beni" variant) might have come into contact with some proto-Igbo speakers using the "midi" variant (implosive /d/), and that initial and ongoing contact might have facilitated the harmonizing effect in eastern Ijaw speech, while they maintained the characteristic low tones from the "beni" variant. Those proto-Igbo speakers who they came in contact with would survive on as the southern Igbo lects from "midi" (implosive /d/) to "mini" and "miri" (the nasal r).

So you see, the analysis of etymology is not something where you just look at two or more words and say "oh, those sound or look alike, they're probably related". To analyze actual etymology, you will need to look at and interrogate language trends and conventions, reconstruct and propose proto-language variants, analyze potential historical contacts, etc. In the case of the terms for "water", we can see that there might be the case of a shared etymology, but it cannot be denied that the terms developed independently and separately between the two language communities. Yet, we can also speculate on likelihood of some harmonizing in pre-history in the axis where the two language communities have known historical contact.

In fact, where is AjaanaOka? This could be another potential case study for interrogating the hypothesis of a southern entry for proto-Igboid.

AjaanaOka:
This 'Ama Onye Naabo' thing had better be deliberate trolling. I hope no one who understands and speaks Igbo takes it seriously. Who says 'onye naabo' for 'two persons'?

In what Igbo dialect is 'onye' ever used as a plural? Onye naabo. If you come from a speech area that says onye naabo instead of mmadu naabo, please indicate. Otherwise, what sort of terrible grammar is that?

AjaanaOka:
See this caveat right here? I've been ruminating over it since my southern entry hypothesis post. It's hard to ignore. Eastern Ijo dialects' words for 'water' are most likely to have been influenced by Igbo forms.

What I find interesting about this is that: The Ijo appear to have a very long history with water. If there is one word one wouldn't think they'd borrow or adapt from more landward people, it would be the word for 'water'. It would be almost like the Arabic word for 'sand' coming from Persian or Spanish.

Except maybe if upon the arrival of the Ijo in what is now the Eastern Delta from more westerly directions they found it already occupied (sparsely perhaps) by Igbo-speaking populations , and in the intermixing and Ijo supercession that followed, Igbo-influenced forms of 'water' slipped into Eastern Ijo.

In one of the papers of M Sowunmi (a paleobotanist I've mentioned in previous discussions) he briefly mentioned an early dry period (BCE era) when grassland extended into the Eastern Niger Delta and the mangrove swamp virtually disappeared. An agricultural people like the early Igbo-speaking peoples could have flourished in the Eastern Niger Delta at the time. Ijo ascendancy there in a later period may have been aided by the return of wetter conditions, the swamps and the mangroves, a geographical situation for which their ancient Aquatic culture is better suited.

This is at least something worth looking into.

AjaanaOka:
This 'Ama Onye Naabo' thing had better be deliberate trolling. I hope no one who understands and speaks Igbo takes it seriously. Who says 'onye naabo' for 'two persons'?

In what Igbo dialect is 'onye' ever used as a plural? Onye naabo. If you come from a speech area that says onye naabo instead of mmadu naabo, please indicate. Otherwise, what sort of terrible grammar is that?

CovenHighPriest:
Lol Igbo people bear Onyeabo as name.

ChinenyeN:


I take it that you are suggesting the "abo" in "Onyeabo" to be the ordinal number two. I can't claim to know the meaning of "Onyeabo". I've seen it in writing, but not once heard it pronounced, so I also can't speculate on its potential meaning, since I lack tonal references. However, if the "abo" in "Onyeabo" is the ordinal number two, as you seem to be suggesting, then I have a few questions for you.

In which version of Igbo grammar is "abo" the same as "naabo"? If you are an Igbo speaker, CovenHighPriest, is there an instance in which you would even say "onye naabo" in an actual, honest conversation? Is there an instance in which you, as an Igbo speaker, would say "onye naabo" and it mean the same thing as "onye abo" (assuming the "abo" here is the ordinal number two, and also assuming that you seem to be suggesting "onyeabo" to be evidence that "onye naabo" is legitimate)?

Please tell us what point "onyeabo" serves in proving that "onye naabo" is not a grammatical blunder and in consequently proving that the grammatically incorrect statement of "ama onye naabo" is actually correct.

CovenHighPriest:


Lol Igbo people bear Onyeabo as name.

ChinenyeN:


I take it that you are suggesting the "abo" in "Onyeabo" to be the ordinal number two. I can't claim to know the meaning of "Onyeabo". I've seen it in writing, but not once heard it pronounced, so I also can't speculate on its potential meaning, since I lack tonal references. However, if the "abo" in "Onyeabo" is the ordinal number two, as you seem to be suggesting, then I have a few questions for you.

Ekealterego:
ChinenyeN, the chief defender of Ijaw affairs since the inception of Nairaland. It has gotten to the Igbo example, suddenly, you have developed amnesia but for some reason, you know all the etymology is of the complicated Ijaw word amanayabo.

AjaanaOka:


Can you confirm that Onyeabo means 'two people' and not something else? It is not a name native to my place, although I know quite a number of people who go by it.

For what it is worth, there is a name born in my axis which may (emphasis on 'may', because I quite simply don't know) mean the same thing as Onyeabo. It is Onyibo (contracted from Onye Ibo). Our Onyibo doesn't mean two people; it means 'second person' [See how the 'onye' is still singular?] or 'a companion'. First sons born in the youth of their fathers used to be given this name.

Now are you sure Onyeabo doesn't mean second person (assuming the 'abo' there even refers to two at all and not to something else entirely, e.g., a forested area, which is also 'abo' in some dialects)?

AjaanaOka:
The 'abo' in Onyeabo is àbọ̀ [LL].

Ekealterego:

ChinenyeN, the chief defender of Ijaw affairs since the inception of Nairaland. It has gotten to the Igbo example, suddenly, you have developed amnesia but for some reason, you know all the etymology is of the complicated Ijaw word amanayabo.