Crucifixion of Jesus- Co-relating Bible and Quran View

QUESTION

[Q) In Bible it is said that Jesus was crucified and it was the plan of God so that Jesus suffered for His people. However in Quran it is said that they did not kill Him. Why these contradictions between Quran and Bible? Which one to believe?
They did not kill Jesus
“And for of their saying, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God.’ But they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to look like him to them. And those who disagree over him are in doubt (of killing him), they have no knowledge of it except the following of guesswork, and they did not kill him for certain. But God raised him up to Himself. And God is All-¬Powerful, All-¬Wise.” (Quran 4:157-158)
One of the disciple volunteered in place of Jesus
Another version is as follows:
The following narration recorded in the Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir is graded as authentic by orthodox Sunni scholars for the Qur'anic verse related to the substitution of Jesus:
Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad." — Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489]

EXPLANATION:

Swami replied
The first version is that the disciple of Jesus sacrificed his life for the sake of Jesus and the actual Jesus went to Heaven while the disciple looking like Jesus was crucified. This statement should be carefully understood as the meaning of one entity only and not two entities.

The human incarnation(God in human form) results when the energetic incarnation of unimaginable God (Father of Heaven) merges with a selected human devotee (like Jesus) for a specific spiritual program. The inner energetic form is also looking like the same external human form. Then only the merge of all the limbs of the energetic body with the limbs of external human form becomes possible as explained in the Veda (Kenopanishat). This explains the similar features of Father of Heaven and Son of God looking alike. This inner energetic incarnation of God (Father of Heaven) is referred by the name Jesus here. The external human form is actually a human being with life and does not die if the Father of Heaven escapes it to go to Heaven. The external human form is a human being made of external inert human body (Aparaaprakruti) and inner awareness or individual soul or Jiva (Paraaprakruti). The disciple leftover is none but the external human being with inert body and non-inert soul. The crucifixion of the disciple means killing the external human being component only since the Father of Heaven can never by killed by anybody. This is a parable explaining a very deep spiritual concept. You should not take the meaning of statement word by word in a parable. The overall inner sense should be extracted with careful analysis. The disciple, who was prepared for even the sacrifice of life, represents the total sacrifice and such devotee is only selected by God to become the human incarnation. The other devotees were not prepared for such extreme sacrifice and hence were not selected for human incarnation.


In the second part, three philosophies of monism (Advaita), special intermediate monism standing between perfect monism and perfect dualism (Vishistaadvaita) and the perfect dualism (Dvaita) were described. First type believes Jesus as God, second type believes Jesus as son of God and third type believes Jesus as messenger of God. When Jesus was crucified, the first type and second type get affected since in the first type, directly God gets crucified and in the second type, the most beloved Son of God gets crucified. Both these concepts make Jesus as perfectly Divine (God) or partially Divine (Son of God). Prophet Mohammed is not agreeing that the petty human beings can crucify God or son of God. He believes in perfect dualism and the external human being into whom God entered is totally different from the inner God. Therefore, human beings could crucify only a human being since they cannot crucify God or Son of God. This perfect dualism is indicated by Jesus asking the devotee coming forward every time prepared for the sacrifice of his life for God to get crucifixion. The final conclusion of this concept is that the created human beings can never crucify the Creator or the Son of God, who is inseparable from God. In Vishistaadvaita, the soul or awareness of the human being is the Son of God and the soul can never be killed even in the case of crucifixion of an ordinary human being since soul is inseparable from God. The conclusion of the Prophet is that neither God nor soul (Son of God) can be crucified. Only the external living body (Messenger) can be crucified.


However, Prophet knows the values of philosophies of first type and second type also. When current (God) enters the wire( an extremly devoted soul called Son of God), the wire is pervaded all over by the current and wire itself is called as current (monism) for all practical purposes. The current is energy and wire is matter, which differ totally from each other (dualism).Current is the main powerful component (angi or sheshi) and wire is the secondary component (anga or shesha) and both current and wire are inseparable (special intermediate monism). Beware that all this discussion of three philosophies pertain only to human incarnation (God in human form like Jesus) and not to ordinary human being.

The Prophet is very much upset by the cruel people crucifying the human incarnation. If the human incarnation is reduced to an ordinary human being (messenger) filtering the God and Divinity, there will be no danger of killing the human incarnation because jealousy will be totally subsided since human incarnation is also reduced to just a human being like us without any trace of specialty. To avoid this danger of jealousy for the future Prophets, the very kind Prophet Mohammed rejected the concepts of human incarnation to be God or Son of God. God means the absolute unimaginable God. Son of God means the soul charged by God by God’s Divinity.

We must see the generosity and sacrifice of Prophet Mohammed to reduce Himself to the state of messenger sent by God, even though He Himself is the Son of God and also actual God in the innermost sense. For the sake of safety of human incarnations, He sacrificed the reality of His actual highest status reducing to lower level of Messenger (lowest level is an ordinary human being).



- By Shri Datta Swami


www.universal-spirituality.org

Universal Spirituality for World Peace

Is it just me or does this read like absolute gibberish it really is...... i mean this swami guy's desperate, inane attempt here?

Kobojunkiee:
Is it just me or does this read like absolute gibberish it really is...... i mean this swami guy's desperate, inane attempt here?

Jesus showed several miracles to give proof for the existence of unimaginable God appearing as Father of heaven in the first energetic medium. But, these miracles raised ego and jealousy in the hearts of priests, who were honoured by public in par with God. Politics is universal and does not leave even the spiritual field.

The priests did not realise that Jesus was helping their spiritual line only because the basis for any spiritual path is the acceptance of existence of unimaginable God mediated in energetic or human medium. In fact, Jesus was God in human medium and He indicated this point also by saying that He is the light and the true path to God. As the preaching of spiritual knowledge of Jesus rose to climax, the ego based jealousy of priests also rose to climax and the result was crucifixion of Jesus to leave the body at 32 years of age.

Had He continued His life fully, so many concepts might have been clarified with far better explanations. Prophet Mohammad analysed all this and found that the concept of contemporary human incarnation performing miracles for confirmation is the root cause of such an unimaginable sin like crucifixion. Hence, He tried to eliminate both these concepts of incarnation and miracles because He felt that no human being can conquer ego and jealousy towards a co-human form.

Go to the following website and read the divine knowledge from there,

-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

dattaswami1:


Jesus showed several miracles to give proof for the existence of unimaginable God appearing as Father of heaven in the first energetic medium. But, these miracles raised ego and jealousy in the hearts of priests, who were honoured by public in par with God. Politics is universal and does not leave even the spiritual field.

The priests did not realise that Jesus was helping their spiritual line only because the basis for any spiritual path is the acceptance of existence of unimaginable God mediated in energetic or human medium. In fact, Jesus was God in human medium and He indicated this point also by saying that He is the light and the true path to God. As the preaching of spiritual knowledge of Jesus rose to climax, the ego based jealousy of priests also rose to climax and the result was crucifixion of Jesus to leave the body at 32 years of age.

Had He continued His life fully, so many concepts might have been clarified with far better explanations. Prophet Mohammad analysed all this and found that the concept of contemporary human incarnation performing miracles for confirmation is the root cause of such an unimaginable sin like crucifixion. Hence, He tried to eliminate both these concepts of incarnation and miracles because He felt that no human being can conquer ego and jealousy towards a co-human form.

Go to the following website and read the divine knowledge from there,

-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

Your swami seems desperate in his attempt to resolve two opposing views. He needs to take a course in Logic where he is sure to learn the simple things.

TRUE + FALSE = FALSE

The result of the above can never amount to TRUE.

Kobojunkiee:
Your swami seems desperate in his attempt to resolve two opposing views. He needs to take a course in Logic where he is sure to learn the simple things.

TRUE + FALSE = FALSE

The result of the above can never amount to TRUE.

The scripture does not give the detailed address of any specific human incarnation since God is not bound by any official schedule and can incarnate anywhere and anytime as per the justified necessity.

In the Gita, the Lord said that He will incarnate whenever there is necessity (Tadaatmaanam srujamyaham… Gita). In the Bible also, Jesus said that He will come again, which means that the God will come in human form again as per the necessity.
Jesus did not give any specific address of the future human incarnation. Every generation of humanity must be blessed with the human incarnation. Otherwise, God will be subjected to partiality since only one human generation was only blessed.

You should not say that the particular human generation blessed by the presence of the human incarnation alone is deserving and not other generations. This is not correct because Jesus was crucified by the people of that generation only. Every generation contains both good and bad people. Therefore, God comes in human form to give satisfaction to the good people and reform the bad people.

The human incarnation never declares itself as God in human form. The scripture also does not declare the specific details of any human incarnation in advance. Those people, who were anxious about God in human form, should recognize the contemporary human incarnation. By the grace of God, such people do recognize the human incarnation of their generation.

It is a secret affair between God and a specific group of devotees, who were anxious about the human incarnation. The devotees are of several types and all do not accept the concept of human incarnation. Only the top most devotees accept the concept of human incarnation. Several of these top most devotees do not accept the concept of contemporary human incarnation even though they accept the concept of human incarnation by limiting to a specific past human incarnation only.

The devotees of Krishna accept the concept of human incarnation in general but limit the concept to Krishna only even though Krishna Himself told that He will come in the human form again and again. Similarly, the Christians consider Jesus only as God.

The real identity mark to recognize the human incarnation is only the exceptional spiritual knowledge as said by the Veda (Satyam Jnanam, Prajnanam Bramha). The reason is that the true spiritual knowledge alone can give a right direction in the field of Nivrutti, which is permanent, related to the soul tramsimitting through several births[1].

Pravrutti is temporary, related to the issues of a particular birth only. Therefore, the permanent benefit of the soul lies in Nivrutti only. For Nivrutti, the right direction can be given by the true spiritual knowledge only. Miracle is not the identity mark of the human incarnation since even devils perform the miracles. Miracles are related to the solutions of the issues of Pravrutti only and hence, mislead the soul from Nivrutti.


You should not give much importance to the scripture because the original scripture spoken by God is always polluted with the insertions of various middle people, who meddle with the scripture. Therefore, you cannot differentiate the original scripture and the inserted portions of the scripture. You have to examine every statement of the scripture through very sharp and powerful logical analysis.
The logical analysis is the basis of the justice. Long logical debates take place in the court to find out the true justice. God always represents the true justice. The devotees desire God to appear in human form so that they can clarify their doubts in the spiritual line.
Such desire is justified and people cannot wait till a specified human incarnation comes since they are not immortal. Some people got clarifications from Krishna and Jesus.

Today also, there are some devotees, who are equally deserving or even more deserving to get clarifications from the human incarnation directly. If these present devotees are not given the same chance, God’s impartiality is not justified and therefore, the whole issue becomes illogical. Therefore, any statement of the scripture should be logical and justified, which alone can be the statement spoken by God. You have not seen God speaking this present scripture.

The scripture is handed over to you by your forefathers and nobody might have noticed the adulteration of the scripture that happened somewhere and sometime in this very long ancestral chain. One person told that since Kapila told a specific concept, it must be true. Shankara rejected this logic by saying that some other name also might be considered as the authority and only logical analysis should be the torch light to find out the truth.

Hence, Shankara introduced the necessity of the sharp analytical power to discriminate truth from falsehood for every devotee (Sadasat vivekah…). The physical indications can never be the signs of the human of incarnation since such signs were never told by the Veda.
Only the true Divine knowledge, which is exceptional and unimaginable, indicates the unimaginable God. This knowledge always stays with God and is never transferrable like the beauty of a lady. The miracles are like the jewels of the lady, which are transferrable to others.

[1]
Refers to Nivrutti accompanying the soul across several births
Go to the following website and read the divine knowledge from there,
-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

dattaswami1:
The scripture does not give the detailed address of any specific human incarnation since God is not bound by any official schedule and can incarnate anywhere and anytime as per the justified necessity.

Interesting claim. .. so because scripture did not, your swami then took it on herself to add his own ideas into God's mouth by pretending to speak for God?

Kobojunkiee:
Interesting claim. .. so because scripture did not, your swami then took it on herself to add his own ideas into God's mouth by pretending to speak for God?

We need not blindly accept every statement of any scripture. Analyzing any statement is necessary to find out whether the statement is genuine or it has been inserted later on. Without this acid test, no statement should be accepted blindly or by force.

Even God Krishna Himself said that everything that He preached, should be thoroughly analyzed before accepting it. One should never ever accept any scripture of any religion blindly without prefect logical analysis of the statements. God is the most genius and He never say anything illogical. If any part is illogical be sure that it is an insertion.

The scripture is valid, provided it is interpreted in the right manner. For such correct interpretation, logical or scientific analysis is necessary. The analysis should be free of the blind fascination towards one’s own religion and one’s own scripture. Ignorant people think that opposing the wrong interpretations of the scripture is opposing the scripture itself. This is not correct. We are only opposing the wrong interpretation of the scripture and not the original scripture.

Now how to proceed in this very important aspect. The following procedure shall be used to detect illogical statements in any scripture of any religion.

The scripture itself says that you should analyze every statement of the scripture through scientific analysis. This does not mean that the scripture doubts about its own genuine value. The idea of the suggestion of analysis by the scripture itself is to test its every statement to ensure that it is said by God (Knowledge wise) and not inserted by some wrong scholar.

Reserve Bank asks every bank to test every note of the bundle to ensure that all notes belong to Reserve Bank only. For this purpose, every note must be checked. If a note is found to be genuine note printed by Reserve Bank, the Reserve Bank should not feel that it is insulted because even the genuine note printed by it is tested! Once we found the note to be genuine, we will not test that genuine note again and again doubting the Reserve Bank itself.

We know that the Reserve Bank will not print a fake note and that God will not say illogical knowledge to sages. A preliminary and final test of each note is essential to find whether the note is genuine or fake. If you get the bundle of notes directly from the press of Reserve Bank, there is no need of test. But, since the notes printed by Reserve Bank have gone in to market facing rotation for a long time, we cannot believe that every note is genuine and should not be tested by analysis. Similarly, we have not received the scripture straight from the devoted sages. The scripture given by God to sages and subsequently delivered by sages did not come to us straight from the mouths of sages. Long time has gone before we received the scripture delivered by sages. In this long time, so many insertions might have entered the scripture.

The printing technology did not exist during this long period so that we can say that the scripture delivered by sages was immediately printed and no insertions could take place. Even if it is orally preserved through recitations from generation to generation, we cannot rule out totally the possibility of insertions. If the scripture is totally genuine without any insertion, it will pass out through the test of analysis like Sita passing out the test of fire.

Why should you fear for the test if it is genuine? After passing through the test of analysis, nobody will dare to say that the scripture is believed blindly by the conservative followers. This unnecessary blame on the scripture as well as on the followers can be avoided by the test. Such test will reinforce the faith in every follower especially in the absence of doubts and blames. Even the scripture like the Gita told by the human incarnations, has equal possibility of insertions and hence analysis was recommended by the Gita itself as the last word. Scripture of no religion is an exception of this concept.


God is omniscient and will never say any illogical or unjust statement. He is certainly beyond the logic, which doesn’t mean that He is on the side of wrong logic.

Whenever a controversial concept appears in the scripture, first we shall try to give a right interpretation for the same verse based on benefit of doubt (This mean that we approach positively in the beginning that this is a genuine verse and then try to interpret it in right direction.). If right interpretation is not possible in any angle, be sure, such verse is an insertion done by ignorant or over intelligent-egoistic-selfish people

Even the Veda (vedaanta vijnaana, sunishchitaarthaah) and the Gita (vimrushyaitat...) say that you shall accept their statements only after doing perfect analysis to get the right conclusion. You must take these statements also as authority if you take the Veda and the Gita as authority. Why is God asking us to analyze His own statements before accepting them? The reason is that God knows very well that in the future some fraud followers of the religion will insert their opinions into the text of the scripture.

You must analyze every statement of the scripture thinking it as genuine based on the concept of giving benefit of doubt. If right interpretation comes in any angle, you can refute the wrong interpretation taken from it. If no right interpretation comes in any angle for the statement, you must reject it saying that God will never speak illogical and unjust concepts and such statement is only insertion by some false follower. You must never accept the forced unjust and illogical interpretation of the statement believing blindly that it is told by God. After all, there is no audio-video cassette taken while God is speaking!

The omnipotent God can eliminate the people adulterating the scripture by directly appearing to human beings. He is doing the same by appearing as human incarnation. People are adulterating the scripture with some selfish motives. It is the responsibility of the human being to analyze the scripture and find out the illogical and unjust portions, which are not said by God. God has given very sharp intelligence to the human beings. If the intelligence is not used, it will corrode due to lack of work. God does not want us to follow Him like inert robots because certain insertions are introduced in the scripture in His name.

God allowed the insertions so that we will use our intelligence and analyze to eliminate those insertions. Even the Veda says that we shall analyze the Vedic statements before coming to conclusions. Such exercise of intelligence on the subject gives perfect satisfaction in believing the truth. Arjuna got confirmation that Krishna is God through cosmic vision and was fully ready to do whatever Krishna says. Still, at the end of the Gita, Krishna said that Arjuna must use his intelligence and analyze the entire Gita before following it.

Whether it is religion or science, one can find the truth only through reasoning, which involves sharp and deep analysis. Scripture is also not an exception for such analysis because we cannot be sure whether the scripture is a genuine version or an adulterated version with insertions made by ignorant people in the course of time. During the process of reasoning, we can distinguish between the genuine concepts and the adulterated concepts. Even divine preachers did the same in writing commentaries on the scriptures.

The commentaries varied in their conclusions due to such adulteration of the original text. Due to this reason, we often find mutually contradicting concepts within the same scripture. You should understand the path of these divine preachers, who wrote commentaries on the scriptures. The path is that you should not accept anything without deep and sharp analysis. People, who dislike the questioning of scripture, should answer why there is a difference in the commentaries written on the same scripture.

dattaswami1:
We need not blindly accept every statement of any scripture. Analyzing any statement is necessary to find out whether the statement is genuine or it has been inserted later on. Without this acid test, no statement should be accepted blindly or by force.

Even God Krishna Himself said that everything that He preached, should be thoroughly analyzed before accepting it. One should never ever accept any scripture of any religion blindly without prefect logical analysis of the statements. God is the most genius and He never say anything illogical. If any part is illogical be sure that it is an insertion.

we shouldn't blindly accept scripture but we should rather blindly injest the various assertions made by third-parties such as your Krishna all of which have no grounding in scripture?

Kobojunkiee:
we shouldn't blindly accept scripture but we should rather blindly injest the various assertions made by third-parties such as your Krishna all of which have no grounding in scripture?

There is a reason why I explained this concept on the basis of logic. The powerful logic behind the concept itself is the strongest scriptural authority. When such strong logic exists, no separate theoretical quotation from the scripture is needed. If strong logic to support a concept is absent and it is only supported by quoting the scripture, it must be rejected. If it is not logical, it should be treated as some insertion in the scripture. Such inserted wrong concepts should be rejected.

There is no need to feel sorry about calling such an insertion in the scripture as an insertion. In fact, knowingly treating a wrong insertion in the scripture to be genuine is very bad. It is said that if you are bitten on your finger by a snake, you should immediately cut off the finger without any foolish attachment towards it or else the poison will spread all over your body and kill you (Aṅgulīvoragakṣatā). A certain concept from a genuine scripture like the Veda or Gita might be accepted by others to be genuine. But if it is proved to be wrong upon analysis, it must be rejected. One must leave foolish and blind attachment towards the scripture in favor of the truth. Logical analysis is greater than the scripture.

Please do not think that I am criticizing the divine scripture by lowering its value. I have to say this because your blind fascination for the scripture, setting aside logical analysis, must be condemned. I am not criticizing the divine scripture. The wrong concept is not genuinely part of the genuine scripture. It is only an insertion made by an ignorant person who wants his wrong concept to be accepted by people like you. He inserted it in a genuine scripture so that people will accept it without question. He is exploiting the position of sacredness given to the divine scripture.

You must realize one basic point: How can God, the author of the divine scripture speak such illogical wrong concepts? Such wrong and illogical concepts were definitely not told by Him! This one point makes logical analysis occupy a higher place than the scripture. The logical analysis reveals what is actually spoken by God and what is inserted by ignorant or crooked people in the scripture. The purpose of giving this entire background is to emphasize the point that a concept supported by sharp logical analysis itself is the scripture. Whether such a concept is found in the divine scripture or not is not important. In any case, there is always the possibility of insertions and corruption of any scripture, so accepting any statement from the scripture without analysis is foolish.


Sun, the first student of the God, fell towards North,
Elder scholars praise this as precious time henceforth,
The sense lights become dim, if even precious lives sink,
Hurry, clear all your doubts as loans now and then think.

dattaswami1:
There is a reason why I explained this concept on the basis of logic. The powerful logic behind the concept itself is the strongest scriptural authority. When such strong logic exists, no separate theoretical quotation from the scripture is needed. If strong logic to support a concept is absent and it is only supported by quoting the scripture, it must be rejected. If it is not logical, it should be treated as some insertion in the scripture. Such inserted wrong concepts should be rejected.

Before you go about attempting to explain anything you refer to as logic, ensure you have a clear understanding of what logic really means.. you cannot offer ideas that are established only in your mind as logic .

Kobojunkiee:
Before you go about attempting to explain anything you refer to as logic, ensure you have a clear understanding of what logic really means.. you cannot offer ideas that are established only in your mind as logic .

What is scripture? Scripture is defined as the word of God, which is the knowledge given by God for the sake of welfare of humanity. All agree to this. But, to give word, which is preaching of knowledge, God must have mouth and throat. We have established that God is unimaginable because the substance with which God is made and the original form in which God exists are unimaginable.

In such case, how can you say that God has told this or that? Even the Veda, believed as the composed scripture by God, mentions the names of sages as the composers (Rushi) of each part. This clearly shows that the sages have composed the Vedas. Lord Buddha, one of the human incarnations, also told that the Vedas are composed by human beings (devoted sages) only and hence the Vedas are called as ‘Paurusheyas’. All this is perfectly correct as one side of the concept. The other side of this topic is to believe the Vedas as scriptures composed by God and hence the Vedas are called as ‘Apaurusheyas’.

There is a controversy between Buddha and Hindu tradition in this point. Instead of bringing controversy up and to conclude that Buddha and Hindu tradition differ with each other, it is always better to show the correlation between these two opposing views. The correlation is that God revealed this knowledge called the Veda to the devoted sages and these devoted sages expressed that divine knowledge in their own statements. The composer of knowledge is God and the composer of the statement expressing that knowledge is the devoted sage.

In the angle of God, the Veda is Aparusheya and in the angle of the devoted sage, the Veda is Paurusheya. Both views are correct without any contradiction. But, the meaning of statement is knowledge and this is the most important essence by which alone humanity is benefited. The language acts as a vehicle of communication only and is not so important as the knowledge. The goods in the vehicle is knowledge and the vehicle is the language. Both are necessary. The payment for the transport by vehicle is very little compared to the payment for goods indicating values.

dattaswami1:

What is scripture? Scripture is defined as the word of God, which is the knowledge given by God for the sake of welfare of humanity. All agree to this. But, to give word, which is preaching of knowledge, God must have mouth and throat. We have established that God is unimaginable because the substance with which God is made and the original form in which God exists are unimaginable.

If scripture was indeed given for the "welfare of humanity" wouldn't it follow that all of humanity directly benefit regularly from scripture?

God gave "mouth and throat" to just a select view and these are those marked by clear submission and obedience of God's very Laws as given in scripture. Meaning not just anyone can "preach" the Truth of God. Only those marked by God's own Spirit of Truth(Jesus Christ) can speak His Truth. All others are nothing but liars as their opinions, even those of God, amount to lies when put up against that decreed by God..

Kobojunkiee:
If scripture was indeed given for the "welfare of humanity" wouldn't it follow that all of humanity directly benefit regularly from scripture?

God gave "mouth and throat" to just a select view and these are those marked by clear submission and obedience of God's very Laws as given in scripture. Meaning not just anyone can "preach" the Truth of God. Only those marked by God's own Spirit of Truth(Jesus Christ) can speak His Truth. All others are nothing but liars as their opinions, even those of God, amount to lies when put up against that decreed by God..

I agree with you. Jesus told “I am the path”. Jesus did not tell “Jesus is the path”. There is difference between these two statements. If Jesus told that Jesus alone is the path, it means that the specific human incarnation called as Jesus alone is the path. But, He did not tell like that. When Jesus told that He is the only path, it means that the human incarnation that alone guides you in a right direction is the real path. This alone provides you the opportunity of direct worship. Even the energetic incarnations do not provide you the facility to worship directly. The inert statues and photos are out of the scope of direct worship when even the alive energetic incarnations do not provide such facility.
There is not the slightest difference between a messenger of God, a son of God and an Incarnation of God. The three represent the dualism of Madhva, the special monism of Rāmānuja and the perfect monism of Śaṅkara respectively.

In fact, the Incarnation of God Himself expresses each of these three states based on the extent of ego and jealousy of His disciples. If the disciples have very high ego and jealousy, the Incarnation says that He is only a messenger of God. If the disciples’ ego and jealousy is moderate, He says that He is the son of God. If the ego and jealousy of the disciples is negligibly small, He reveals His oneness with God.

Even the divine messenger saves His disciples by undergoing the punishment for their sins. The Incarnation is a homogeneous mixture of God and soul, like an alloy of gold and copper. The messenger is a copper rod welded with a golden rod. In both cases, if the gold is heated, the copper also becomes hot. In both cases, the human being-component suffers by the will of God. God, who is represented by gold in the analogy, is invisible and in fact, unimaginable. So, the heating of the invisible gold can only be expressed through the heating of the visible copper.

In other words, we cannot see the unimaginable God. But upon witnessing the suffering of the the human-component of the Incarnation, we realize the fact that God suffers for the sins of His devotees. Here, it is very important to note that God suffers for the sins of only His real devotees. He does not suffer for the sins of all humanity. Emmanuel is the one who suffers for the sins of only His real devotees.

dattaswami1:
I agree with you. Jesus told “I am the path”. Jesus did not tell “Jesus is the path”. There is difference between these two statements. If Jesus told that Jesus alone is the path, it means that the specific human incarnation called as Jesus alone is the path. But, He did not tell like that. When Jesus told that He is the only path, it means that the human incarnation that alone guides you in a right direction is the real path. This alone provides you the opportunity of direct worship. Even the energetic incarnations do not provide you the facility to worship directly. The inert statues and photos are out of the scope of direct worship when even the alive energetic incarnations do not provide such facility.

And your swami proves my point again...

When Jesus Christ said, " I am The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through me" in John 14 vs 6, He spoke those words to reveal His existence in relation to the one who is the Father. Those who are versed in the Truth of God immediately understand that Jesus Christ, is God's very own Law or Laws - the only law for those who seek direct access to God's Heaven -, God's very own Eternal Life and God's very own Truth/Word. He is born from the same source that is God on those aspects is what Jesus Christ told you in that one verse... the culmination of all that He revealed throughout several of His teachings to His disciples.

All that went over your swamis head there who is still chasing after shadows there speaking of incarnations and the lot.

Kobojunkiee:
And your swami proves my point again...

When Jesus Christ said, " I am The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through me" in John 14 vs 6, He spoke those words to reveal His existence in relation to the one who is the Father. Those who are versed in the Truth of God immediately understand that Jesus Christ, is God's very own Law or Laws - the only law for those who seek direct access to God's Heaven -, God's very own Eternal Life and God's very own Truth/Word. He is born from the same source that is God on those aspects is what Jesus Christ told you in that one verse... the culmination of all that He revealed throughout several of His teachings to His disciples.

All that went over your swamis head there who is still chasing after shadows there speaking of incarnations and the lot.

My answer to the dear devoted holy Christian soul is as follows:

Does Jesus represent a human body, the word or both? If it represents a particular human body, then such a human body does not exist now. Only a particular human generation and that too, in a particular place was favored by the association of the human body of Jesus. Is it not the partiality of God?

If Jesus represents the word (Message of the Christ), then the previous human generations before the birth of Jesus were not favored with this word and this also leads to the partiality of God. If Jesus represents both the body and the word, then both the above objections will attack together, strengthening the partiality of God.




God is impartial. He created this entire universe. He should not favor a part of the infinite time and a particular piece of the world. Since there is no re-birth of the soul, as you say, all those unlucky souls fell permanently in the hell. Now such souls cannot take human re-birth to pray to Jesus for their salvation. If you say that some other prophet by name Moses or some other name, who was equal to Jesus, existed before the birth of Jesus, then, the Christian belief “Jesus alone is the Saviour” will be wrong. If you say that Moses was also the same Jesus, then, why not some other person, X or Y or Z, after Jesus also be Jesus? In such a case Jesus exists before and after the birth of Jesus. Then Jesus is omniscient and omni-potent. In such a case, Jesus in some other human forms, by some other names, must have always existed. Then, Jesus can even exist in different human forms simultaneously, in different countries during the same human generation to avoid the partiality, because the different countries might not have contact with each other during a particular old human generation. In fact, this was true because the countries were not having any contact with each other, a few centuries ago. God is the Father of all the people in all the countries of this universe and therefore, He should be impartial to all His children. You have to agree with this point because only one God created this whole universe. It will be better to further replace the word Jesus by a general word like ‘Holy Spirit’, because the word Jesus signifies a particular human body only according to general sense of the public. The word ‘Holy Spirit’ does not signify any particular human body and therefore it will be reasonable to say that the Holy Spirit is God and this Holy Spirit existed in all those divine human forms.

In fact, the Holy Spirit is the purest power of God that enters a particular chosen deserving human body in every country during the same human generation. By this, every country gets equal benefit. When Jesus existed in a particular place, the other countries were not having any comunication with that Holy place of Jesus. Those human generations in other countries must have gone to the hell because Jesus was the only savior. Of course, some people who were associated with Jesus also went to hell since they disbelieved Him. But those people, at least, got the chance of association with Holy Jesus because they existed in that place. Had that chance of association been given to the people of other countries also, there might have been a fraction of the people, which, might have believed in Jesus and might have been liberated. Such salvation of a fraction of people happened in that Holy place where Jesus lived. This objection will charge Jesus or (and) God with lack of planning and lack of impartiality. To remove this charge, the above universal concept has to be accepted by open minds, following a logical scientific path of analysis, which is essential in any line of knowledge including spiritual knowledge.

O great Christians! I appreciate you from the bottom of My heart for your one-pointed faith and sincerity towards God. Who can be compared with you, in this world, for your practical sacrifice in the mission of God and for your kindest hearts in the service rendered to the downtrodden people? Fortunately you are also the toppers in science, which is the result of most powerful practical analysis of any concept. Thus you are the best cream of this creation in all the aspects. But why don’t you apply a trace of that powerful systematic logical scientific analysis in this spiritual knowledge also? Why should you follow the interpretations of your fellow human beings, who are just equal to you? You can yourselves analyse the divine statements of God Jesus with your own intellectual faculty based on simple logical analysis. Since only one God created this universe, since only God is the Father of all the human beings in this world and since the Father must be impartial to all the children, the same God must have written all the religious scriptures of the world. These scriptures cannot and should not contradict each other. If there is any contradiction, that must have been the misinterpretation of some closed minds.

Before Jesus was born, prophets announced Him as ‘Emmanuel’, meaning that God was coming in human form to live with human beings. Whenever the word Jesus comes, it should mean only ‘Emmanuel’. When you say that Jesus is the only path, it means that the human form of God is the only path to reach God. Whenever Jesus utters the word ‘I’, that word ‘I’ means ‘Emmanuel’, who is a general human incarnation of God and not just a particular human incarnation. The reason for the emphasis on the human form of God is that, human beings can have His vision for a long time, can touch Him for a long time, can converse with Him for a long time and can live with Him for a long time when He is in the human body. The Holy Spirit can enter a body of light also, which is called as angel. Such a body can be seen for a little time only since the light has the nature of propagation in the space. Such an angel cannot be touched due to the high intensity of radiation. The angel talks briefly for the same reason. The angel cannot live with human beings for a long time. Thus the human body is most convenient for human beings. This soul goes to the upper world by taking a body of light-energy.

For those souls in the upper world, God also appears with a body of bright light-energy. Jesus referred this form of God as the Father of the Heaven. A human being with this materialized body cannot approach God with that powerful energetic body. The meaning of the statement that a human being can approach God only through Jesus is that a material body can approach God through a material body only. God is one and the same whether He is present in the body of light or in the materialized human body. From the point of God, Jesus and the Father of Heaven are one and the same. The milk present in a golden cup is the same as the milk present in a ceramic cup. “Jesus will come again!” means that God will come again and again in human form for every human generation, to avoid the partiality of the Father to a particular human generation. In this context the word Jesus means Emmanuel. The statement that Jesus is the light is a concept of science.

The word Jesus indicates the external human body, which is made of the five elements i.e., earth, water, energy, air and space. Space is common for both matter and energy, which is the basis of the concept of volume. Volume is the property of the space. Both matter and energy need space. Earth, water and air constitute matter in solid, liquid and gaseous states. Thus the matter in the human body is another form of energy according to the law of mass-energy equivalence (E = mc2). Thus the human body of Jesus, which is constituted by matter is a form of energy and thus it is equal to the energetic body of the Father of heaven. Thus from the point of external body also, the Emmanuel and the Father of Heaven are one and the same. A person present in bright silk clothes or dull cotton clothes is one and same. Such interpretations must be logical and also must prove the impartial love of God towards all His children on the earth.

dattaswami1:
My answer to the dear devoted holy Christian soul is as follows:

Does Jesus represent a human body, the word or both? If it represents a particular human body, then such a human body does not exist now. Only a particular human generation and that too, in a particular place was favored by the association of the human body of Jesus. Is it not the partiality of God?

If Jesus represents the word (Message of the Christ), then the previous human generations before the birth of Jesus were not favored with this word and this also leads to the partiality of God. If Jesus represents both the body and the word, then both the above objections will attack together, strengthening the partiality of God.

You no dey read?

You are told by at least 2 witnesses that Jesus Christ died, rose in 3 days after His death and then ascended into Heaven with the same body He had here on earth.

You are also told in the very same scripture, that man rejected Jesus Christ in the beginning. and His return over 2000 years ago is God offering man yet the same chance that was offered to man in the beginning, again, not as an imposition but an offer of redemption to mankind.

When you don't understand even the basics of what is clearly written in scripture, all your efforts to argue anything regarding it will always appear meaningless.

Kobojunkiee:
Is it just me or does this read like absolute gibberish it really is...... i mean this swami guy's desperate, inane attempt here?

Complete gibberish and trash !!!

Imagine Jesus asking his disciples that one of them should impersonate him and take his place on the cross, and these same disciples still went to preach Jesus crucifixion and resurrection and, still paid supreme price, I mean died horrible death for what they believed.

Is that not foolishness ?

To die horrible death for what you know it's a lie ?

Who does that

I think Islam and Muslims are confused, and this happened in order to make Islam real. Should dey accept the crucifixion of Christ, there won't be anything Islam today.
And should they deny crucifixion took place, then Islam will find itself fighting against history. So just like liars and hypocrites always sit on the fence when they realize they can't silent the truth, Muhammed decided to go with same tactics.

Islam is fake and lies !!!!

Samunique:
1. Complete gibberish and trash !!! Imagine Jesus asking his disciples that one of them should impersonate him and take his place on the cross, and these same disciples still went to preach Jesus crucifixion and resurrection and, still paid supreme price, I mean died horrible death for what they believed. Is that not foolishness ? To die horrible death for what you know it's a lie ? Who does that

2. I think Islam and Muslims are confused, and this happened in order to make Islam real. Should dey accept the crucifixion of Christ, there won't be anything Islam today. And should they deny crucifixion took place, then Islam will find itself fighting against history. So just like liars and hypocrites always sit on the fence when they realize they can't silent the truth, Muhammed decided to go with same tactics. Islam is fake and lies !!!!

1. Na wa oo!

2. I am even more astounded by this OP's Swami thinking it possible to resolve two obviously conflicting and contradictory ideas by claiming something about the incarnation of bodies etcetera. I almost felt the walls of my mind straining as if in an attempt to collapse in on itself while trying to process what he wrote there.

Samunique:
Complete gibberish and trash !!!

Imagine Jesus asking his disciples that one of them should impersonate him and take his place on the cross, and these same disciples still went to preach Jesus crucifixion and resurrection and, still paid supreme price, I mean died horrible death for what they believed.

Is that not foolishness ?

To die horrible death for what you know it's a lie ?

Who does that

I think Islam and Muslims are confused, and this happened in order to make Islam real. Should dey accept the crucifixion of my 54⁵55 to 55555555555545444⁵5, there won't be anything Islam today.
And should they deny crucifixion took place, then Islam will find itself fighting against history. So just like liars and hypocrites always sit on the fence when they realize they can't silent the truth, Muhammed decided to go with same tactics.

Islam is fake and lies !!!!

Good bless you!
I wonder why someone who said he would save me would request that I die for him or die in his stead!

Although the Bible says the Gospel of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing but the submission of the OP is illogical. It would have been better to say Jesus didn't die than saying he asked one of his disciples to die for him!

I agree with you. Jesus told “I am the path”. Jesus did not tell “Jesus is the path”.

I will really like to know the difference between these two statements.

Jesus emphatically said, 'I'm the way' not 'one of the ways'. To further clarify this, he said, 'No one can come to the father except through me'. How clearer could it be?

Kobojunkiee:
You no dey read?

You are told by at least 2 witnesses that Jesus Christ died, rose in 3 days after His death and then ascended into Heaven with the same body He had here on earth.

You are also told in the very same scripture, that man rejected Jesus Christ in the beginning. and His return over 2000 years ago is God offering man yet the same chance that was offered to man in the beginning, again, not as an imposition but an offer of redemption to mankind.

When you don't understand even the basics of what is clearly written in scripture, all your efforts to argue anything regarding it will always appear meaningless.

Human incarnation results when unimaginable God merges with imaginable devoted soul selected by God for the sake of some important work to be done in the world for the welfare of the souls. The process of the merge of unimaginable item with an imaginable item is also unimaginable. Only the process between two imaginable items existing in this imaginable creation is imaginable.
For example, gold and copper are imaginable items. Both these metals merge homogenously to form a solid solution, which looks like one item (gold), but when viewed through microscope, both metals appear as different atoms.
This means the merge to become one item is only external, but, the merge internally reveals that both these imaginable items did not become one item in the actual sense. This state (externally as one item, but, internally as two items) exists for anybody as the constant uniform single state. Regarding the case of unimaginable God merging with imaginable soul, the process of merge is unimaginable due to the omnipotence of God.
The human incarnation will appear simultaneously to different human beings in three states:-
1) As 100 % God if the devotee is with 100% faith.
2) As mixture of God and human soul in various proportions like solid solution of gold and copper according to various proportions of faith and doubt of the devotee and
3) As 100% human soul if the devotee has no faith. Krishna appeared in these three states simultaneously to Vidura, Dhrutaraashtra and Duryodhana in the same time while giving cosmic vision in the court.
Since devotees like Vidura are very very rare, I mentioned the second and third states only in the view of majority of devotees, who have partial faith or no faith. The first state is Monism of Shankara, the second state is inseparable dualism (like gold and copper in solid solution) of Ramanuja and the third state is separable dualism (like two different blocks of gold and copper).
This is told in the Gita that God results as per the view of the devotee (ye yathā mām…). Based on the worldly logic of imaginable items existing in the imaginable creation, we shall not discuss the state of unimaginable and omnipotent God.
Go to the following website and read the divine knowledge from there,

-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality[.]org

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxwPeghu3cM
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

dattaswami1:
Human incarnation results when unimaginable God merges with imaginable devoted soul selected by God for the sake of some important work to be done in the world for the welfare of the souls. The process of the merge of unimaginable item with an imaginable item is also unimaginable. Only the process between two imaginable items existing in this imaginable creation is imaginable.
For example, gold and copper are imaginable items. Both these metals merge homogenously to form a solid solution, which looks like one item (gold), but when viewed through microscope, both metals appear as different atoms. ...

Yet more mindless drivels! Is this all one can expect? If yes, maybe time to disengage and find better things to do with one's life abeg.

dattaswami1:
Crucifixion of Jesus- Co-relating Bible and Quran View

QUESTION

[i][Q) In Bible it is said that Jesus was crucified and it was the plan of God so that Jesus suffered for His people. However in Quran it is said that they did not kill Him. Why these contradictions between Quran and Bible? Which one to believe?..

This is madness!

You are merging the book of hate Christians with the book of Christianity and you want to make sense out of the mix?

Has anyone told you, you are mad?