₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
You can clearly see the Imran referred too in Surah Imran.

The two Imrans are distinct figures in Islamic tradition.

Imran the father of Moses, is a figure from earlier biblical times. This Imran was from the lineage of the Prophet Jacob and the father of Moses (Musa), Aaron (Harun), and their sister Miriam (Maryam in Islamic tradition, but not to be confused with Maryam the mother of Jesus).


The Qur;an mentions the family of Imran as a blessed lineage in the following verse:
“ Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran over the worlds - Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing; (Quran 3:33-34)

On the other hand, another Imran is mentioned in Islamic tradition as the father of Mary (Maryam), the mother of Jesus (Isa). This Imran is referenced in the Quran in relation to the birth of Maryam:
(Remember) when the wife of Imran said, My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated (for Your service), so accept this from me.' (Quran 3:35)

Though they share the same name, the context of their stories and their timelines clearly indicate that they are different individuals separated by many generations. The name Imran is translated as Amram in the Bible, where he is also recognized as the father of Moses but is different from the father of Mary who bore Jesus.

honesttalk21:
You have been informed that what emerges from the between the ribs of the woman and her backbone is the baby housed in her womb during gestation?

Why do you hold on to misconceptions when the facts have been made clear? Where is the womb of a woman located during the gestatio period?

honesttalk21:
Realistically speaking because you have a father then there becomes zero regards to your maternal origin?

There are matrilineal and patrynal ancestry with the case of Jesus who has no earthly father who's ancestry will be used unless you agree with slander that Mary (God forbid) had premarital affairs which resulted in a child?

Why will God implicitly lie about Jesus's paternal ancestry when he has no earthly father. Oh this Biblical god and Tenq are one of a lieing kind.

honesttalk21:
Is it a lie that the Quran was passed down orally and used for prayers in congregations from the early followers of prophet Muhammad till date?

Is it a lie that stringent scrutiny is made to ensure the Quran is properly and correctly recited? Though there is scrutiny with the hadith is it the same level as the Quran?

A prayer is not valid without the recitation of Surah Fatiha of the Quran which hadith omitted invalidates the prayer? Tell me.

honesttalk21:
In this verse, the Quran is using the language and the vocabulary that the Arab could understand. The Quran is not telling us a scientific fact. It is just telling what Dhul-Qarnayn saw with his eyes. His perception/feeling of what was happening.

Consider in comparison the phenomenon of the sun appearing to set into the mountains is an optical illusion caused by the Earth’s rotation and the position of the observer in relation to the landscape.

When the sun is close to the horizon, its light passes through a greater thickness of the Earth’s atmosphere, which scatters shorter wavelengths (blue and green light) and allows longer wavelengths (red and orange light) to reach our eyes. This scattering effect causes the sun to appear larger and gives it a reddish-orange hue, creating a visually striking scene when it seemingly sets behind a mountain range

Our visual perception can be influenced by several factors. The relative scale of the mountains compared to the sun can create an illusion that the sun is setting directly behind them . Additionally, atmospheric conditions such as haze or cloud cover can further enhance this effect by diffusing and refracting sunlight, adding to the impression that the sun is descending into or behind the mountains.

Dhul Qarnayn saw the sun setting in a muddy spring. That’s how he sees it and that’s how it appeared to him (perception not actual).
The verse in question does not imply that the sun actually sets in murky waters. It is a figurative expression used to describe the experience of the people mentioned in the story. It is important to interpret the Quranic verses in their proper context and consider the figurative language used.

Ibn Kathir says: Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,) means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun's setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible [/color] , and the tales told by storytellers that he traveled so far to the west that the sun set behind him are not true at all. Most of these stories come from the myths of the People of the Book and the fabrications and lies of their heretics


وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬
(he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed. Hami'ah is, according to one of the two views, derived from the word Hama'ah, which means mud.

Ala Maududi also says:

“The setting place of the sun” does not mean the place of the setting of the sun. According to Ibn Kathir, it means that he marched to the west conquering one country after the other till he reached the last boundary of the land, beyond which there was ocean.

“He found it setting in a muddy spring”: If Zul Qarnain was Cyrus, then that place would be the western limit of Asia Minor and the black waters would be the Aegean Sea. This interpretation is supported by the use of the word ain instead of bahr in the Quran.

The phrase “وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬” is from the Arabic language and can be translated to English as “He found it setting in a spring of dark mud” or “He found it setting in a murky spring.” The phrase is often used in the context of describing the sunset, where “it” refers to the sun and “spring of dark mud” or “murky spring” refers to the horizon or the place where the sun appears to set.

In Arabic poetry and literature, this phrase is used to depict the beauty of nature and the vivid imagery of a sunset. It conveys a sense of tranquility and paints a picture of the sun descending into a serene, yet mysterious, setting. The use of descriptive language in Arabic poetry is known for its rich symbolism and evocative imagery, and this phrase is a prime example of that.

TenQ:
So you see that it only takes knowledge, persistence and patience to get the truth out of you Muslims.

Now, according to you, the Almighty Allah wrote a chapter of the Al-Imran referring to the Father of Moses but in the same chapter, he referred to to Imran the Father of Mary the mother of Jesus WITHOUT any introduction of the second Imran.

How intelligent is this kind of writing where a subject suddenly appears in a book with no prior introduction or in the case of the Qur'an distinguishing between the two Imran?

Could this be the reason why Muslims need hundreds of Tafsirs to understanding the Qur'an?
In other words, Muslims are not guided by the direct words of Allah but only by the consensus of your scholars?
Reading the Qur'an ALONE, what would be your understanding of this chapter?

Is this not a cover up that justify that it is actually one Imran but the glaring error made you split them into two?

honesttalk21:
You can clearly see the Imran referred too in Surah Imran.

The two Imrans are distinct figures in Islamic tradition. (The two are not explicitly referred to in the Quran; have you shown a verse saying Imran is the father of Moses- not exegesis-, the Quran explicitly refers to the family of Imran from which Mary who bore Jesus is a descendant of)

Imran the father of Moses, is a figure from earlier biblical times. This Imran was from the lineage of the Prophet Jacob and the father of Moses (Musa), Aaron (Harun), and their sister Miriam (Maryam in Islamic tradition, (this is an exegetical reference and not a part of the Quran) but not to be confused with Maryam the mother of Jesus).


The Qur;an mentions the family of Imran as a blessed lineage in the following verse:
“ Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran over the worlds - Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing; (Quran 3:33-34)

On the other hand, another Imran is mentioned in Islamic tradition as the father of Mary (Maryam), the mother of Jesus (Isa). This Imran is referenced in the Quran in relation to the birth of Maryam:
(Remember) when the wife of Imran said, My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated (for Your service), so accept this from me.' (Quran 3:35)

Though they share the same name, the context of their stories and their timelines clearly indicate that they are different individuals separated by many generations. The name Imran is translated as Amram in the Bible, where he is also recognized as the father of Moses but is different from the father of Mary who bore Jesus.

honesttalk21:
Oh my! Where does the Quran say Imran is the father of Moses?

Show this and disprove that you are nothing other than a liar.

TenQ:
Is the Baby a fluid gushing forth!?



You will note that up till now, you have not been able to give the Biological name of the fluid from the rib bones (Taraib) of the woman (I've heard Mensural flow, follicular fluid, Arousal fluid and now baby)

What is the exact name of this light yellow fluid?

TenQ:
Is the Baby a fluid gushing forth!?



You will note that up till now, you have not been able to give the Biological name of the fluid from the rib bones (Taraib) of the woman (I've heard Mensural flow, follicular fluid, Arousal fluid and now baby)

What is the exact name of this light yellow fluid?

TenQ:
The question here is not about Jesus but Mary.
According to you, if her father is from the Tribe of Judah, what tribe does Mary belong to?

TenQ:
Why are you dodging this questions
Can you tell me how the woman's menstrual flow proceed from her rib bone (Taraib)?

Or

Can you tell me how the woman's arousal flow proceed from her rib bone (Taraib)?





The question was:

From whose mouth did you Muslims get the quran?
Was it from Mohammed or Allah?

I did not ask either for chains of narration or the preservation of the Qur'an : that is for another day.

Is it untrue that Mohammed told you that Allah through Gabriel dictated to him verses..... and you Muslims believed Mohammed?


Please answer this!

honesttalk21:
Your level of stupidity is really alarming. You believe because Moses is reported to have spoken face to face with God and Jacob wrestled with God in your bible these statements are to be literally understood to be so? Sorry indeed your claimed following of the Bible in Christianity is defective.

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad pbuh and he spread the Quran and teaching to all around him orally at the time with different verses written at different times.

I believe the Quran as a revelation from Allah through Muhammad pbuh

Coming to the end of one argument and preparing to repeat another?

Make useful use of your time and follow your Bible advice

honesttalk21:
But Jesus is a descendant of Mary and as he has no human father; who are about literally both his father and mother?

Mary being of the tribe of Judah going by the patriarchy severely emphasised in the bible does not remove the contribution of another tribe. Is it a lie that the Israeli descendants inter- married across the tribes?

Particular so as the spiritual faith of Mary's mother led to her birth who in turn was righteous and gave birth to Jesus.

3 generations of righteous persons on one family line of lineage. Is that in itself not a tremendous sign for one who reasons?

honesttalk21:
Does the verse with verse say the fluid mentioned in Quran 86:6 is what emerges from 86:7? That the verses follow each other does not mean the latter is exactly the continuation of the former.

Yes after ejaculation and fertilization there's a pregnancy and the result of this; the baby (babies), emerge from the womb.

Where is the womb of a woman normally located in relation to the ribs and backbone with particular reference to time of gestation?

honesttalk21:
I cannot imagine this level of stupidity. It has been pointed out that there are limitations to hadith and exegesis which sometimes portray contrary to the Quran.

Indeed the fluid emerges from the man as semen but Quran 86:7 is further stating how the new born developed and is delivered into the world from.

Your fixation on exegesis of the likes of Tabari and others disables you from rational thinking. You must be the type that feels when going to a cold room that will normally be cold fails to respond to warnings when there has been an accident and there is a severe fire probably from equipment malfunction.

TenQ:
Is it untrue that Mohammed told you that Allah through Gabriel dictated to him verses..... and you Muslims believed Mohammed?


Please answer this!

honesttalk21:
Your level of stupidity is really alarming. You believe because Moses is reported to have spoken face to face with God and Jacob wrestled with God in your bible these statements are to be literally understood to be so? Sorry indeed your claimed following of the Bible in Christianity is defective.

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad pbuh and he spread the Quran and teaching to all around him orally at the time with different verses written at different times.

I believe the Quran as a revelation from Allah through Muhammad pbuh

Coming to the end of one argument and preparing to repeat another?

Make useful use of your time and follow your Bible advice

TenQ:
Is Mary from the Tribe of Judah or not?

TenQ:
I am not yet asking you for how a baby is formed. I ask about Quran 86:6-7

What is this specific Fluid emanating from the Taraib.
I can see that you seem to be wiser than your scholars who say"

Tafsir Quran 86:6-7 Ibn Kathir
...Then Allah says,
(He is created from a water gushing forth.) meaning, the sexual fluid that comes out bursting forth from the man and the woman. Thus, the child is produced from both of them by the permission of Allah. Due to this Allah says,
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest. Shabib bin Bishr reported from `Ikrimah who narrated from Ibn `Abbas that he said,
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) "The backbone of the man and the ribs of the woman. It (the fluid) is yellow and fine in texture. The child will not be born except from both of them (i.e., their sexual fluids).'' Concerning Allah's statement, .....

Tafsir Quran 86:6 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
the response is: He was created from a gushing fluid, gushing forth from the man and the woman into the womb,

Tafsir Quran86.6-7 Asrar - Kashf Al-Asrar
He was created of gushing water, emerging from between the loins and the chest.
When the human individual was created, he was created from water thrown and spilled, a water that came forth from the back of the man and from the bones within the woman's breast .....

AGAIN:
What is the NAME of this specific Fluid emanating from the Taraib.

honesttalk21:
I never say Allah wrote anything. Allah revealed the Quran; the recitation, to Prophet Muhammad pbuh through Jibril. Al - Imran in the Quran refers to the father of Mary who bore Jesus not Imram the father of Moses.



I asked:



Unable to answer? Caught in your lie!
I await you rebuttal with a Quran verse that names the father of Moses.

Moses is mentioned by name in the Quran 136 times. These references cover different aspects of Moses’ life, including his birth, upbringing, mission as a prophet, confrontation with Pharaoh, and leading the Israelites however his father’s name is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran.
While the Quran provides extensive details about Moses’ family background, his mother, sister, and other relatives are mentioned, but his father’s name is not specified in connection to him.

The lieing Tenq is guided by Tafsir regardless of the type and is unable to correlate correctly with the Quran verses referred to. A pitiful case of confusion.

You cannot educate the one who fails to appreciate his/her personal lack of knowledge.

honesttalk21:
The Quran was revealed to Muhammad pbuh and he spread the Quran and teaching to all around him orally at the time with different verses written at different times.

honesttalk21:
Your Bible says Judah by marriage.

honesttalk21:
@Tenq the Gish gallop specialist spotting lies at will here and there. Have you seen this?


Eleazar (Mt 1:15) had two children, the one Mathan (Mt 1:15), and the other Jotham. Joseph is descended from Mathan and Mary from Jotham. Eleazar’s son Mathan begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Joseph. And Eleazar’s son Jotham begot Zadoq, and Zadoq begot Mary by his wife Dina, who is the sister of Elisabeth, the wife of Zechariah. For this reason it is written that the Angel said to Mary, «Behold, Elisabeth your relative has conceived» (Lk 1:36) — that is, the sister of your mother. Now Mary from her father’s side was from the tribe of Judah, but from her mother’s side, from the tribe of Levi. Then the (tribes) were intermingled after the return from the Babylonian captivity through divine providence, so that our Saviour might be seen as being from both of them, in order that, through his kingship, the kingship of Judah might become ineffective, and through his priesthood, the (same would apply to the) priesthood of Levi.

Now you see Levi and this is related to Aaron isn't it?

QED

honesttalk21:
You refer to Tafsir explaination of the Quran 86:6-7 which reads:

At-Tariq 86:6

خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ دَافِقٍ

English - Sahih International

He was created from a fluid, ejected


At-Tariq 86:7

يَخْرُجُ مِنۢ بَيْنِ ٱلصُّلْبِ وَٱلتَّرَآئِبِ

Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs.

Does 86:7 Tell you a fluid is what is ejected?

A fluid is not what is ejected but the baby that was previously housed in the womb.

honesttalk21:
29 From here begins the second discourse. It was sent down in 9 A.H. on the occasion of the visit of the deputation from the Christian State of Najran, which lay between Hijaz and Yemen. It is said that it comprised 73 villages and towns and was capable of raising an army of more than one hundred thousand strong. The population was wholly Christian and was governed by the "Aqib," who was the head of the community, and the "Sayyid," who was in charge of the social and political affairs and the Bishop, who looked after the religious affairs of the people. The above-mentioned deputation was one of the many who visited the Holy Prophet after the conquest of Makkah, when the whole of Arabia came to realize that the future. of the country was now in his hands. This deputation from Najran to AI-Madinah consisted of 60 men and the three heads of the government. As they had no mind to go to war, the question before them was either to embrace Islam or to live as zimmi (proteges). On this occasion Allah sent down this discourse to the Holy Prophet to invite the members of the deputation to Islam.
30 `Imran was the name of the father of Moses and Aaron and has been mentioned as "Amram" in the Bible.(Imran mentioned as father of Moses and Aaron in the Bible not Quran). For context and relevance remember the earlier reference to the visit of the Najran Christians who believe in Moses also mentioned in the Quran but without any reference to the name of his father as lied about by Tenq.

31 The main cause of the misguidance of the Christians is that they consider Jesus to be the son of God and a partner in God-head, instead of His Servant and Messenger. Therefore this basic error is being corrected with a view to making them understand the true and real Islam. That is why the introduction to the discourse begins with the assertion that Adam and Noah and the Prophets from the family of Abraham and from the family of `Imran, were all human beings and none of them was "God. " Their only distinction was that Allah had chosen them for the preaching of His religion and reforming the World.
32 [b]If[/b] by the "woman of `Imran" is meant the "wife of `Imran", then this must be a different 'Imran from the one mentioned above in v. 33. In that case one comes to the conclusion that [b]the father of Mary was named 'Imran after that ancestor. But if by the "woman of `Imran" is meant a woman from the family of 'Imran, then it merely shows that Mary's mother was a descendant of `Imran. We possess no authentic knowledge of the basis on which
one opinion may be preferred to the other. Though according to some Christian traditions the name of Mary's father was Joachim, history does not say who the father of Mary was and to which family her mother belonged. But if the tradition that the mothers of Mary and Elisabeth, the mother of John, were cousins be taken as we, (Luke 1: 36), then the "woman of `Imran" will mean a woman from the family of `Imran. The Gospel of Luke (1:5) says that Elisabeth, the wife of Zacharias. "was of the daughters of Aaron", that is, 'Imran daughter or woman of `Imran; therefore it is clear that there is no anachronism of confounding Miriam, the sister of Aaron, with the virgin Mary. It is a common practice to call children by the names of their ancestors; so both the explanations are equally acceptable.

Moreover, it does not make any difference whatsoever, in the line of argument adopted here to explain the miraculous birth of Jesus, whether 'Imran was really the name of Mary's father or has been called so in the ancestral sense.


See the vertebrae of the backbone and as the uterus grows into the stomach it is prominently protected with other internal organs by the ribs

TenQ:
1. The highlight in Yellow was from your scholars not me!
2. Even according to your diagram, the foetus is NOT between the backbone and the ribs but between the backbone and the external stomach wall sir!

Check your coloured diagram again!

honesttalk21:
You refer to what you highlighted of my comment in yellow from Ala Maududi. You notice I included in bracket what you disregard in it - Imran mentioned as father of Moses and Aaron in the Bible not u.

honesttalk21:
Do you not understand the reference to a common ground in Muhammad pbuh following the tenets of monotheism that Moses preached. Does the Quran exactly say Imran is the father of Moses?

TenQ:
You still have no shame sir!
What is wrong is wrong and repeating falsehood wouldn't make it right

Even according to your diagram, the foetus is NOT between the backbone and the ribs but between the backbone and the external stomach wall sir!

Check your coloured diagram again!
Is the baby between the Rib Bones and the back Bone or between the back bone and the external stomach walls?


The Allah of the Quran never knew there were two Imran: He spoke of only one. However, when issues of the problematic verses came out (that Moses and Aaron's Father is Imran), the prophet of Allah came to explain and even your Islamic scholars agreed with him.

honesttalk21:
Can you see the uterus in this picture? At full term the fetus occupies the most of the uterus. Do you see the ribs in white above it?
Do you know the where the lumbar vertebrae of the backbone extends to? Is the coccyx beneath this part of the backbone?

Call your friend SirTee15 to explain to you hopefully you may understand.
Does it not reach towards the base of the sternum?


And you didn't read this?

In that case one comes to the conclusion that the father of Mary was named 'Imran after that ancestor (in which case the Imran who is Moses father)

TenQ:
Even your picture of the 33weeks old fetus in the uterus is not between the ribs and the backbone.

It is a big goof by Allah sir!


How come it is Mohammed bailing Allah out with respect to Al-Imran?

honesttalk21:
However you choose to see it is fine by me. I have asked you to get the views of SirTee15 which you pretend to ignore.
Did your wife ever complain of feeling any pain around her rib region when she was pregnant?

The picture may not suit the understanding you desire and this is fine. How much gynaecology do you know?

In the diagram attached prove your case by marking where the ribs and backbone are.

You can lie in denial and that indeed is what and who you are.

honesttalk21:
Your wife's neck pain will be something else not directly related to the pregnancy. How about her back? Don't answet as that is your personal issue.

Whenever SirTee15 or SirTeee15 is able he may comment. I don't see any emergency. I don't know SirTee outside some discussions here in which he has shown commendable intelligence. He appears to know the medical sciences or at least anatomy.

Label where the ribs and backbone should be 😁. Alas he has been proven wrong!