The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril - Christianity Etc (11) - Nairaland
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| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 6:46am On Jul 21, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Islam doesn't understand the seriousness of SIN. Let me explain it again Sin is that that causes the Kunfayakun of God to FAIL! Remove the Kunfayakun of God, He ceases to be God. It is extremely serious if God says BE and it isn't It is extremely serious to violate Gods integrity. Ohyoudidnt:The bible says that God made provision for this even before He created anything. God created a creatures who He gave powers to say NO to His will and Command. BUT God also created a place called Hell for permanently and eternally discarding such individuals. Thus anyone who violates God's integrity is cut-off from Himself: this is what is called the lake of fire. Let me ask you a question: When Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, was this command fulfilled by Iblis? But Allah is supposed to be the almighty king of the universe: If everyone decides not to obey any command of Allah with no consequence, would he remain the sovereign almighty? Ohyoudidnt:Not every sacrifice is for sin in the bible. My emphasis was on God providing a ransom for Abraham's son Ohyoudidnt:You did not commit sin with Adam nor did you play any role in it in paradise, how come you are here on earth (also driven out of paradise with Adam)? Is this unjust by God? Ohyoudidnt:Even according to the Qur'an, Jesus existed before entering into Mary. Qur'an 4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He cast down unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. Let me ask you a simple question and I hope you will speak the truth If according to Qur'an 4:171, Jesus was 1. Allah's Word 2. A Spirit from Allah 3. The Messanger of Allah Did Jesus become the word of Allah , a Spirit from Allah and a Messanger of Allah AFTER He entered Mary's womb or BEFORE He entered Mary's womb? Did Allah tell you that Mary's egg was used to form Jesus or that Allah or Jibril blew into Mary's private part his spirit? Qur'an 66:12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). This should answer your question: is Jesus a direct descendant of Adam and Eve? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 7:06am On Jul 21, 2024 |
TenQ:Repeating fundamentally the same line of questions would not change the answer. Very much like doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result. Is the word a command of Allah? Is the whole of creation by the command of Allah and under his command? A newly born child is pure and gets corrupted to various degree in course of growing up in the society. Why isn't Jesus a direct descendant of Adam? Because he only has a father? Is the mother not a descendant of Adam or only the mother being the descendant makes him not a descendant anymore? How many signs had been shown to mankind and the Israelites before that were rejected or denied? Another sign is shown in a man being born without a father and you exaggerate that it's something much? What have you found and can you then say of Melchizedek? Why don't you also promote his status? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 7:34am On Jul 21, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:You adopted it as closest to the meaning of the MAY of Allah Ohyoudidnt:Of course, every believer want forgiveness Ohyoudidnt:All have sinned including believers and thus unfit to be with God Ohyoudidnt:Forgiveness is NEVER free my dear. Someone has to pay for the consequences of the offence. If I bash your car and the brake lights and bumper got damaged and you forgave me: do you think the forgiveness is free? If you accidentally slapped Tinubu (a human being like you and me) in public and he decides to forgive you, has the forgiveness UNDONE the fact that the commander in chief of Nigeria was slapped? God is willing to forgive humans because of His love for them, but God's integrity cannot also be compromised. Hence, God must execute His Justice even in forgiveness: this is the purpose of a RANSOM. You are forgiven because the Forgiver paid your Fine Sin is trivial in Islam, so I understand your predicament. Riyad as-Salihin 423 Abu Ayyub Khalid bin Zaid (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Were you not to commit sins, Allah would create people who would commit sins and ask for forgiveness and He would forgive them Allah seems to enjoy when people violate his kunfayakun as long as he receives their worship. Please compare with this: 1 Peter 1:15-17 15 But as he (God) who have called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of your conducts; 16 Because it is written, (God said) Be ye holy; for I am holy. We definitely serve different Gods. Ohyoudidnt:It seems that Allah seems to enjoy the filth of sin. 1. Using Iblis as an example: Is it true that Allah sometimes gives commands that aren't executed? 2. How can Iblis undo his violation of Allah's command as it is in record that Allah sometimes gives commands that don't come to pass. Islam must be a bundle of contradictions where we cherry pick what we like as doctrine. Sunan Abi Dawud 3966 Amr ibn Abasah, said that Marrah ibn Ka'b said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: If anyone emancipates a Muslim slave, that will be his ransom from Jahannam. Riyad as-Salihin 432 Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will deliver to every Muslim, a Jew or a Christian and say: 'This is your ransom from Hell-fire."' Sunan Ibn Majah 3014 It was narrated from Ibn Musayyab that ‘Aishah said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “There is no day on which Allah ransoms more slaves from the Fire than the Day of ‘Arafah. He draws closer and closer, then He boasts about them before the angels and says: ‘What do these people want?’” Sunan Ibn Majah 2522 It was narrated that Shurahbil bin Simt said: I said to Ka'b bin Murrah, tell us a Hadith from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), but be careful. He said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: “Whoever frees a Muslim man, he will be his ransom from the Fire; each of his bones will suffice (as a ransom) for each of his bones. Whoever frees two Muslim women, they will be his ransom from the Fire; each of their two bones will suffice (as a ransom) for each of his bones.” You said: Or do you say the forgiveness of Allah or the God you worship is so limited that in order to forgive and save some he has to transfer their wrong to others?This is actually TRUE only of Islam. Is it untrue that the sins of Muslims are transferred unto the Christians and Jews. In Christianity, God Himself through Christ Jesus bears our burden of sin. John 1:29 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 7:55am On Jul 21, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:When you absolutely fail to answer simple questions Let me ask you a simple question and I hope you will speak the truth If according to Qur'an 4:171, Jesus was 1. Allah's Word 2. A Spirit from Allah 3. The Messanger of Allah Did Jesus become the word of Allah , a Spirit from Allah and a Messanger of Allah AFTER He entered Mary's womb or BEFORE He entered Mary's womb? Did Allah tell you that Mary's egg was used to form Jesus or that Allah or Jibril blew into Mary's private part his spirit? Simple questions always defeats Islam Ohyoudidnt:No sir! Where did you see the word command? The Qur'an simply says Allah's Word cast down to Mary Ohyoudidnt:No sir. Even Adam wasn't created by any command! Ohyoudidnt:Using your logic , A pig is a clean animal until it begins to grow up and eat junks. Ohyoudidnt:You feigned deaf and dumb to the question: Did Jesus become the word of Allah , a Spirit from Allah and a Messanger of Allah AFTER He entered Mary's womb or BEFORE He entered Mary's womb? Ohyoudidnt:Islam is so dumb? What sign? Mary would have been stoned to death for Adultery (according to the law of Moses);if the Jews knew that Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus. Which of the Jews was an evidence that Jesus was born Miraculously? Ohyoudidnt:Melchizedek is a "type of Christ" ! I guess you may also need to tell us about Al-Khidr who seems to know the unseen with Allah |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 9:11am On Jul 21, 2024*. Modified: 10:49am On Jul 21, 2024 |
TenQ:What is required for sins to be absolved is a sincere repentance and resolve not to do so again. It definitely is impossible to pay for forgiveness with anything. Quran 39: 53. Say, “O My servants who have transgressed against themselves: do not despair of God’s mercy, for God forgives all sins. He is indeed the Forgiver, the Clement.” 54. And turn to your Lord, and submit to Him, before the retribution comes upon you. Then you will not be helped I am amazed there are other Christ's you now claim your salvation is dependent on however is Christ not associated with crucifixion? Was Melchizedek also crucified? Melchizedek was not crucified; he is not depicted as having undergone any form of execution or death in the biblical texts. So how come you christ him? Adam wasn't created by a command you say however he was commanded to live? Allah created Adam from clay and breathed His spirit into him, giving him life. This creation is a demonstration of the power and will of Allah. In Surah Sad, verse 71, Allah says when your Lord said to the angels, 'Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay.'" The speech to the angels is what? The saying or command? Allah wills a thing to exist He says to it “Be!” (kun fayakun) and it comes into existence right away. Do you say the Jews didn't question the birth of Jesus? Does your Bible document any other children born by Mary despite her alleged marriage to Joseph? The Catholics who you have said aren't Christian say Mary remained perpetually a virgin for her entire life. I emboldened your only God knows severely repeated question and have answered you before. Jesus is the command creation of Allah in whom his created spirit exist? Is there any spirit not created by Allah/God? The word of Allah is the manifestation of His infinite knowledge, wisdom, and power. This is seen in his creation and known in things not seen. Jesus is a messenger from God and a word from Him, meaning that he carries a divine message and is part of God’s plan for humanity. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 1:35pm On Jul 21, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Indeed we serve different Gods and it should worry you because your prophet claimed that our God also is your God. They forgive differently don't they? It seems that Allah seems to enjoy the filth of sin. 1. Using Iblis as an example: Is it true that Allah sometimes gives commands that aren't executed? 2. How can Iblis undo his violation of Allah's command as it is in record that Allah sometimes gives commands that don't come to pass. Ohyoudidnt:Muslims can tell lies for Africa! Ohyoudidnt:1. Show me where Adam was commanded to live in the Qur'an? Just one place is enough. You enjoy manufacturing conjectures 2. "I am going to create human beings from clay" is NOT a command but a statement of intent. A command is an instruction "BE!" or "COME TO BE"! Ohyoudidnt:Tell me one thing that Allah created solely by the command "BE"? It doesn't exist! Ohyoudidnt:If they questioned the birth of Jesus , why wasn't she stoned according to the law of Moses? Mary had other Children! Ohyoudidnt:Another lie! Where have you ever heard me say that they are not Christians? The Catholics are no authorities against the scripture. Do you take your religion from Allah, Mohammed and the Sunnah OR from the Sunni or is it Shia Muslims? Ohyoudidnt:Copying the God of the Jews and Christians does not make Allah God. How can Allah who is neither Omnipotent nor Omniscient nor Omnipotent claim to be God? According to Allah is Jesus a Word from Him or a Messanger who carries a word from him? Why do you then call Jesus with the title Kalimatullah or Ruhullah ? Small questions is enough to expose your falsehoods. Muslims with lies to distort what their God Allah says. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 3:35pm On Jul 21, 2024 |
TenQ:Interesting that you appear oblivious of 1. Jonah 3: 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. (sackcloth serves as a powerful symbol of repentance, humility, and mourning. The context of this verse reveals that the king of Nineveh commanded both people and animals to be covered with sackcloth as an outward expression of their inward contrition and desire for God’s mercy.) 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. The sackcloth is often associated with rituals, however it's true meaning lies in the heart’s condition behind those rituals. In Psalm 51:16-17; King David expresses that God does not desire sacrifices but rather a contrite heart. “You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.” This highlights that true repentance is more valuable than ritualistic sacrifices. Mark 2:5: When Jesus sees the faith of those bringing a paralyzed man to Him, He says, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Where is the sacrifice here? {1} As you labelled it. Iblis was able to disobey Allah for several reasons that are deeply rooted in pride, arrogance, and a misunderstanding of his own nature compared to that of Adam. You disregard the fact that Iblis is a jinn probably because you don't have clear description of this in the Bible. The Jinn like mankind have freewill which Allah or God in his own wisdom bestowed. Iblis’s disobedience serves as a test for humanity. His role as tempter is integral in Islam; it provides humans with the opportunity to choose between obedience to Allah or succumbing to temptation. Therein is where you find a problem with your slander that Muslims are slaves. Do slaves have a choice? TenQ:Do you mean that Jesus Christ is not unique as the Christ? Kindly tell me of other Christs with proper biblical reference. TenQ:Adam is a miraculous individual that demonstrates the power and will of Allah. The command "Kunfayakun" which translates to "Be, and it is" is a divine decree by which Allah brings things into existence. Allah says in Surah Al Imran, verse 59: Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, 'Be,' and he was." This verse illustrates the divine command "Kunfayakun" as the method by which Allah created Adam from dust. Jesus ate food and drank which is a character of bodies composed of earth. Remember too that even the clay was created by be. TenQ:Allah created all celestial bodies such as stars, planets, galaxies, light, darkness, water, and air. TenQ:Narratives on the historical perspective surrounding the birth of Jesus as presented in the New Testament are not corroborated by contemporary Jewish texts or historical records from that time. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke provide accounts of Jesus’ miraculous virgin birth, but these accounts were written decades after the events they describe. Toledot Yeshu critiques of Christian claims regarding Jesus’ birth and an examination of Jewish societal values at the time. Through its narrative approach, it questions not only the legitimacy of Jesus’ origins but also reflects on how societal attitudes can shape historical outcomes. Kindly provide explanatory proof of other children of Mary from the Bible and other sources. TenQ:It may be I confuse with some of your other 'brethren' will try find it in due course. Do Catholics not use and follow the Bible? What are you exactly saying? Do the Sunni and Shia Muslims have different Quran? Is the Quran not the revelation from Allah? TenQ:You are aware that كَلِمَٰتٍ; kalimaatin, is plural for kalimah. Will you say Quran 2:37: Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful should be Then Adam received from his Lord [some] Jesuss (plural), and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. Perhaps you need to read and understand Quran 3:39 Allah gives you the good news of John, as a confirmer of a Word from (kalimatin min) God, eminent and chaste, a prophet, among the righteous. It has been explained to you that spirit is a creation of Allah not an attribute of Allah. Why are you fixated on likening man to God when nothing can be compared or likened to him? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 5:24pm On Jul 21, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:The questions were 1. Using Iblis as an example: Is it true that Allah sometimes gives commands that aren't executed? 2. How can Iblis undo his violation of Allah's command as it is in record that Allah sometimes gives commands that don't come to pass. We can see that Allah is not sovereign in command and that his kunfayakun are sometimes not honoured. How can this be God? You didn't say how Iblis can undo the violation of Allah's kunfayakun most likely because Allah's kunfayakun actually isn't worth anything. Note: There is nowhere in the old testament where forgiveness for paradise was mentioned. It was always forgiveness against God's punishment here on earth. Only in the New Testament do we have forgiveness leading to paradise and redemption. It is at least good that you acknowledge that Jesus do forgive sins. Does any human being have the power to forgive sins? Ohyoudidnt:Muslims can tell lies for Africa! The more he tells lies , the more he believes his own lies. Ohyoudidnt:My questions were simple 1. Show me where Adam was commanded to live in the Qur'an? Just one place is enough. You enjoy manufacturing conjecturesI didn't ask you if Adam was miraculous or not. I asked you to show me where Adam was commanded to live in the Qur'an as you had insinuated. It is clear from the Qur'an (except if you admit that it is a contradiction) that Adam was not created by "BE". Is it UNTRUE that Adam was created from clay? Is Clay and Be the same thing? Was Jesus created from be or by BLOWING into Mary's vulva? Then you brought the concept of Jesus eating! What a terrible argument from the author of the Qur'an. Do you not see that this is another proof that Allah is NOT Omnipotent? Can Allah eat human food without ceasing to be God? Ohyoudidnt:Are you sure about this? Because Moses wrote that YAHWEH created everything and not Allah? Is Allah YAHWEH? Secondly, If Allah created everything, surely he must remember the order how he created things 1. According to the Qur'an, Was the universe created by Allah in six days or eight days? 2. According to the Qur'an, was the earth created before the heavens or the heavens were created before the earth? 3. According to the Qur'an, were the heavens and the earth joined together as one before Allah separated them? Ohyoudidnt:Here your kind of argument: Narrative about Mohammed was not corroborated in the Torah or Injeel SMH! Ohyoudidnt:Here is your logic again: Therefore, the account of the Gospels are not true but the account of Mohammed written 650 years after Jesus was miraculously true! Ohyoudidnt:Muslims don't think. Can you please tell me how many years after the death and resurrection of Christ was the book written? Are you telling me that it is historically correct that Jesus father is a Roman soldier named Pandera and that Jesus was a sorcerer? But Muslims have no iota of shame to even bring this up as an argument. Ohyoudidnt:I do not need to give you any explanatory proof Matthew 12:46-47 Matthew 13:55-56 Mark 3:31-32 Mark 6:3 Galatians 1:19 Acts1:14 Does Jesus have brothers and sisters? Ohyoudidnt:They do! Ohyoudidnt:Don't you have over 30 Arabic Qur'ans? Where is the copy of the Qur'an of Mohammed? Where is the copy of the Qur'an of Abubaker? Where is the copy of the Qur'an of Uthman? How come you are using the Qur'an according to the recitation of a known Fraud (Hafs)? Why is your present Quran different from the Sanna Qur'an? Please don't go there. The Qur'an has been over corrupted! Ohyoudidnt:The question was simple 1. According to Allah is Jesus a Word from Him or a Messanger who carries a word from him? 2. Why do you then call Jesus with the title Kalimatullah or Ruhullah ? Copying the attributes of the God of the Jews and Christians does not make Allah God! How can Allah who is neither Omnipotent nor Omniscient nor Omnipotent claim to be God? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 6:26pm On Jul 21, 2024 |
TenQ:You generally don't even make enough effort at engaging informative discussion. Summarily though I can tell you that the verses you list about Mary having other children provides no evidence that she bore them. Is this not why you shy away from elaborating as you have no clear proof. Sharing what you have written in your scripture does not translate to support or belief in it. The point is to show you that forgiveness is obtainable without sacrifice unlike your earlier claim that there must be atonement/sacrifice for sin to be forgiven. TenQ:Simply God/Allah needs no sacrifice to forgive. What will he do with the sacrifice? Is your god like the pagan gods that are said to be hungry by their priests/boka/babalawo? Correct my view of the Christ since you claim I lie. You claim I lie but don't recognize my not being a Christian. It is usually heard that Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ will do things which other christ is there? I show you Quran 3:59 with the command of Allah for Adam to be and you deny it? You repeat your fallacy about a Quran copy given to the prophet when the Quran is a recitation/revelation not a handed over book. How it came to be written is another discussion but for your wrong opinion of multiple Qurans you obviously know the truth and just like to be the broken record player on repeat. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 7:26pm On Jul 21, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Why is Islam so problematic that it needs scores of scholars to make any meaning out of it. Of all said, this is your response and deductions and you accuse me of not even making enough effort at engaging informative discussion. LOL! I can only shake may head in amazement. Let me narrow down with you since you want to avoid speaking about your fabricated Qur'ans. Is your point that Jesus doesn't have siblings? Unfortunately, the Torah your prophet and Allah claims are from Allah are full of sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. Exo 29:14: "But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shall you burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering." Exo 30:10: "And Aaron shall make an atonement on the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement on it throughout your generations: it is most holy to the LORD." Lev 4:3: "If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he has sinned, a young bullock without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering." This is a proof that Allah is satan the misleader. The Al-Makr who Deceive with outright lies and half truth. Did Allah give the Taurat to Moses I guess I should remind you of the claim of the Al-Makr Qur'an 5:44 "Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto..." You are saying that Allah is the Babalawo requested Abraham to sacrifice his son for him. Afterwards, this Babalawo supplied a ram which was slaughtered as a sacrifice for him. SMH! Ohyoudidnt:Muslims will repeat the same lies until they feel it has become true! SMH! Ohyoudidnt:Just tell be if CLAY is BE or maybe it's moulding is the BE Ohyoudidnt:Do you want to challenge me to open a new post for you exclusively to show you the differences between the Sanna Qur'an/Warsh Qur'an and the 1924 copy of the Qur'an from a fraud and liar called Hafs? Was the Qur'an collected in the lifetime of your prophet? Was the Qur'an collected in the lifetime of Abubaker? Was the Qur'an collected in the lifetime of Uthman? Are these recitations or written Qurans? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 5:58am On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:Indeed it seems you mix up and mistake the several council meetings/debates you had in Rome. Moses received the original Torah and interceded/prayed for the forgiveness of Israelites in Numbers 14:17-20 without sacrifice and it was granted. Haven shown you clearly how forgiveness is granted by the almighty God without sacrifice as he seeks sincerity and remorse for wrong doing you now wiggle away with inclination to new discourse? Can you articulate in writing not videos the actual difference between the Sana'a scripts and present Quran or the wrong claim of multiple Quran? But before you go there you should see where God forgives without need for sacrifice. How was the clay created? How was the frame of man enlivened? Do you diminish the might of your God to having hands just as yours in your confusion about speech made to enable your understanding? Please describe what the hands of God are like. Pardon the disjoint in response as you don't keep focus on a line of discourse. I say Jesus has no siblings given birth to by his sole mother Mary. Do provide verses saying when and how Mary gave birth to other children and stop these far reaching submissions. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 7:32am On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Is it untrue that your Allah attests that this Torah was still with the Jews at the time of Mohammed? Ohyoudidnt:If you were half smart, you would have known that there is difference between forgiveness and freedom from consequence of sin. This is why a sacrifice is made for the whole of Israel (apart from individual sacrifices) at least once a year. Ohyoudidnt:I shall oblige you. Ohyoudidnt:Did you see them face the consequence of their even after forgiveness? There punishment was to be Disinheritance from God as a people. Numbers 14:11-12 Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” Numbers 14:23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. Numbers 14:29-30 New King James Version Numbers 14:29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, Another proof that Allah is not YAHWEH (It is a big LIE by the Al-Makr that him and our God is the same) And Allah gave a childish argument Quran 5:18 The Jews and the Christians each say, “We are the children of Allah and His most beloved!” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Why then does He punish you for your sins? No! You are only humans like others of His Own making. He forgives whoever He wills and punishes whoever He wills. To Allah ˹alone˺ belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. And to Him is the final return.” As a father, is it wisdom that you never punish or discipline your children!? Ohyoudidnt:Is Clay Adam? Did Allah claim he created Adam or the Clay by Be? Ohyoudidnt:After you discuss the two right hands of Allah and his shin and his shape shifting Ohyoudidnt:Is it untrue that I have given you evidences from the Bible where Jesus have siblings. Since you are prone to manufacturing lies, from your quran, tell us how Jesus did not have siblings and lets compare bible with Quran statements. Sometimes you feign of stupidity is amazing: Only a dumb Christian will ask a muslim how and when Muhammed was born by his mother! Enough of this so that I can open your new Thread for you on the Sanaa and Warsh manuscripts |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 11:23am On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:It seems you never read or understand Quran 5 12 Allah made a covenant with the Children of Israel and appointed twelve leaders from among them and ˹then˺ said, “I am truly with you. If you establish prayer, pay alms-tax, believe in My messengers, support them, and lend to Allah a good loan, I will certainly forgive your sins and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow. And whoever among you disbelieves afterwards has truly strayed from the Right Way.” (This verse is included to aid your understanding of the following hoping you concede that the Torah is amongst books given/sent to the israelites) But for breaking their covenant We condemned them and hardened their hearts. They distorted the words of the Scripture and neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold You ˹O Prophet˺ will always find deceit on their part, except for a few. But pardon them and bear with them. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers. Even within Numbers 14 you see mention of exemption of Caleb. Is it untrue that Israelites and people often fall back to old sins and even add new ones? TenQ:Thank you genius. When God forgives the consequence of the sin is not applied in the afterlife even if certain sins or wrong doing have physical effects that cannot be avoided or reversed. TenQ:For which Sin did Moses pray for forgiveness for? Did they not commit other sins after? Did he let them fall back to Egyptian captivity? Why is Caleb exempted according to your bible? TenQ:Funny you have repeatedly stated in our discussions that Allah is not Yahweh and I have ignored it since I never say Yahweh and Allah are the same. Proverbs 13:24, states “He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently. You also fail to comprehend that the relationship between Allah and mankind is not of father and child as embedded in your belief. I have explained consequence of sin and how a forgiven sin isn't punished in the afterlife despite a physical consequence in the earthy life early on in this reply. TenQ:Fundamentally without the command of Allah will the clay be a living human Adam? The evidence of Jesus having siblings is not specifically showing they are children born by Mary his mother. Do you not understand that? TenQ:There's ample literature about Muhammad pbuh's birth. We do not any where make reference to him having any biological siblings you have submitted that Jesus has these and I ask you to show inevitable proof of this. I see you edit your argument to Sana'a and warsh no more mention of hafs. Well it's well over time. Ohyoudidnt:I believe you now properly understand the conceptual translation to may in statements regarding Allah forgiving sins. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 12:35pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Sometimes I wonder if the person behind the keyboard is dumb or irresponsibly stupid to discard the words of his Allah and prophet so swiftly Let us assume for the sake of argument that the Jews distorted their scripture? According to the hadith of your prophet below, how: is it by rewriting their scripture? Sunan Abi Dawud 4446 Ibn ‘Umar said: some jews came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and mentioned to him that a man and a women of their number had committed fornication. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) asked them: What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied: We disgrace them and they should be flogged. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said: You lie; it contains (instruction for) stoning. So they brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said to him: Lift your hand. When he did so, the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said: He has spoken the truth, Muhammad, the verse of stoning is in it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then gave command regarding them, and they were stoned to death. ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar said: I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones. Secondly, you accuse your Allah of Ignorance as you know better than him as Allah says Qur'an 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone. Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not, Please confirm that Allah is wrong with these passages above !? Does it make sense for Allah to confirm that which is distorted? Ohyoudidnt:If you had answered my previous questions, you wouldn't show how dumb you are with this. I will put it in a simpler way. If you committed a rape against a lady, how can you payback even if Allah forgives you? If you committed a murder against a man, how can you payback even if Allah forgives you? You see how you needed to be treated as a toddler to comprehend simple spiritual things Ohyoudidnt:Moses pleaded for the consequence that would have befallen then for their sin. Ohyoudidnt:Is Allah YAHWEH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Ohyoudidnt:So, why is Allah making Jews and Christians ransom for your punishment of sin in hell? Ohyoudidnt:As long as Clay is not Adam, it is a failure of the Quran. Ohyoudidnt:Show me evidence according to Allah or your prophet and stop breying like a donkey. Ohyoudidnt:I have made your post for you: waiting for your silly response as usual. If you need difference between Hafs and Warsh after your response , I will give you. Muslims can lie for Africa...even to themselves. The vast majority of Muslims believe that only one quran exist. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 2:57pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:Allah is extremely far from wrong. You are severely wrong. It is appropriate to make some effort to clarify your misunderstanding. In Quran Surah 7: 155. And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. When the tremor shook them, he said, “My Lord, had You willed, You could have destroyed them before, and me too. Will you destroy us for what the fools among us have done? This is but Your test—with it You misguide whomever You will, and guide whomever You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are the Best of Forgivers.” 156. “And inscribe for us goodness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have turned to You.” He said, “My punishment—I inflict it upon whomever I will, but My mercy encompasses all things. I will specify it for those who act righteously and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs.” 157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel in their possession. He directs them to righteousness, and deters them from evil, and allows for them all good things, and prohibits for them wickedness, and unloads the burdens and the shackles that are upon them. Those who believe in him, and respect him, and support him, and follow the light that came down with him—these are the successful You read mention of those who follow the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in the Torah. These are those who find and acknowledge the mention in the Torah. Now let’s review the hadith. The hadith in question, recorded in Sunan Abi Dawud, presents a significant interaction between the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) and a group of Jews regarding the punishment for fornication as prescribed in their scripture, the Torah. In this hadith, Ibn ‘Umar recounts an incident where some Jews approached the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to discuss a case of fornication involving one man and one woman from their community. The Prophet’s inquiry about what their scriptures dictated regarding stoning reveals his role as a mediator and judge in matters of law. The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts. Abd Allah b. Salam, who was a prominent Jewish convert to Islam, intervened by assersting that the Torah indeed contained instructions for stoning as punishment for adultery. His statement highlights two critical points: first, that there was an existing scriptural basis for stoning within Jewish law; second, it underscores his commitment to truthfulness and justice in contrast to what he perceived as dishonesty from his former co-religionists. The act described where one of the Jews covered up the verse on stoning while reading from the Torah illustrates an intentional distortion or manipulation of their sacred text. This behavior raises questions about integrity and adherence to divine commandments among those who claim to follow them. It also serves as a commentary on how individuals may selectively interpret or present religious texts to suit their agendas. Then in Quran 2: 40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge to you, and fear Me. 41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations for a small price; and be conscious of Me. 42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know. Do you not see what is said in the verse following Quran 2:41 that you quoted not mixing truth with falsehood and concealing the truth while they know from 2:42??. Refer back to the attempt to conceal by covering with the hand at saying otherwise. Does Quran 2:89 89. And when a scripture came to them from God, confirming what they have—although previously they were seeking victory against those who disbelieved—but when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it. So God’s curse is upon the disbelievers. Despite knowing they disbelieve. Then 101. And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what they had, a faction of those who were given the Book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know. 102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, “We are a test, so do not lose faith.” But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew. You clearly see that some of of those who were given the book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know. I believe you understand what is meant by throwing the Book behind their backs means in this verse. It means disbelieving. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 2:58pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Allah is extremely far from wrong. You are severely wrong. It is appropriate to make some effort to clarify your misunderstanding. In Quran Surah 7: 155. And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. When the tremor shook them, he said, “My Lord, had You willed, You could have destroyed them before, and me too. Will you destroy us for what the fools among us have done? This is but Your test—with it You misguide whomever You will, and guide whomever You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are the Best of Forgivers.” 156. “And inscribe for us goodness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have turned to You.” He said, “My punishment—I inflict it upon whomever I will, but My mercy encompasses all things. I will specify it for those who act righteously and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs.” 157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel in their possession. He directs them to righteousness, and deters them from evil, and allows for them all good things, and prohibits for them wickedness, and unloads the burdens and the shackles that are upon them. Those who believe in him, and respect him, and support him, and follow the light that came down with him—these are the successful You read mention of those who follow the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in the Torah. These are those who find and acknowledge the mention in the Torah. In this hadith, Ibn ‘Umar recounts an incident where some Jews approached the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to discuss a case of fornication involving one man and one woman from their community. The Prophet’s inquiry about what their scriptures dictated regarding stoning reveals his role as a mediator and judge in matters of law. The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts. Abd Allah b. Salam, who was a prominent Jewish convert to Islam, intervened by assersting that the Torah indeed contained instructions for stoning as punishment for adultery. His statement highlights two critical points: first, that there was an existing scriptural basis for stoning within Jewish law; second, it underscores his commitment to truthfulness and justice in contrast to what he perceived as dishonesty from his former co-religionists. The act described where one of the Jews covered up the verse on stoning while reading from the Torah illustrates an intentional distortion or manipulation of their sacred text. This behavior raises questions about integrity and adherence to divine commandments among those who claim to follow them. It also serves as a commentary on how individuals may selectively interpret or present religious texts to suit their agendas. Then in Quran 2: 40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge to you, and fear Me. 41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations for a small price; and be conscious of Me. 42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know. Do you not see what is said in the verse following Quran 2:41 that you quoted not mixing truth with falsehood and concealing the truth while they know from 2:42??. Refer back to the attempt to conceal by covering with the hand at saying otherwise. Does Quran 2:89 89. And when a scripture came to them from God, confirming what they have—although previously they were seeking victory against those who disbelieved—but when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it. So God’s curse is upon the disbelievers. Despite knowing they disbelieve. Then 101. And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what they had, a faction of those who were given the Book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know. 102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, “We are a test, so do not lose faith.” But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew. You clearly see that some of of those who were given the book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know. I believe you understand what is meant by throwing the Book behind their backs means in this verse. It means disbelieving. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 3:47pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Two things 1. Allah's word is worthless in the light of what Muslims want to believe. Why do you think Allah will confirm a scripture that has been doctored? 2. Did the hadith say that the Jews changed their scripture to remove "stoning" or they orally concealed the command of stoning? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 4:07pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts. TenQ:Tell me if the process where the jew placed his hand to cover a part of the Torah wasn't an attempt to hide the complete ruling/guidance is not a form of distortion? distort verb [T] (AFFECT) to change something so that it is false or wrong, or no longer means what it was intended to mean to change or affect something, especially in a way that makes it worse By hiding away from view a part of the law does it have any effect on the law? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 4:15pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Then the doctored Torah was magically restored when someone else read it? SMH! Did you not ask me to post the Sanaa Vs Hafs Qur'an? You are definitely scared! Have a nice day |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 4:22pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:When you speak of a document and leave out parts of it what is written what is it called? When a document is written based on what you say haven omitted some parts what will this be? Do you not know about Ezra rewriting the Torah from memory? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 4:25pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Which Ezra? Is he the one the Jews say is the son of Allah according to the Qur'an? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 5:13pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ: Ohyoudidnt:Did Ezra play any role is restoring the Torah? Was the Torah commonly transmitted orally? Could any other person supposed to know the Torah not dictate the Torah when it's hard copy was lost? Do answer and respond to my quote quoted in relation to Ohyoudidnt: |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 8:15pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:No sir. He read the Torah and the prophets and explained them to the people. Neh 8:1-8 "And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law. And Ezra the scribe stood on a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam. And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people; ) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." Ezra played a role in rebuilding the destroyed temple. Ezra is not even regarded as a Prophet whether minor or major . Ezra was an ordinary Priest who helped to interpret the scripture. Ohyoudidnt:The scriptures of the Jews were never transmitted orally like the Qur'an. They were always written. People memorised parts of it but it was always about the written scriptures. Deu 17:18-19 "And it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:" Ohyoudidnt:Who told you that the Torah was lost that necessitated it to be reproduced from memory? It never ever happened sir: it is at best a wishful thinking by you. Are you admitting that this was what happened when the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubaker and also that of Uthman disappeared? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 8:18pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:If we may work towards concluding here. We find a critical moment wherethe Israelites have expressed their lack of faith and trust in God’s promises. After sending spies into Canaan, they received a report that filled them with fear and doubt about entering the Promised Land. This led to widespread rebellion against Moses and Aaron, as well as against God Himself. They doubted God’s ability to deliver them into Canaan despite witnessing numerous miracles during their exodus from Egypt. Their complaints included wishing they had died in Egypt or in the wilderness rather than facing what they perceived as insurmountable challenges in Canaan (Numbers 14:2-4). Following the prayer of Moses; God responds favorably to Moses’ plea by affirming that He has forgiven them but also reiterates that those who rebelled will not enter the Promised Land (Numbers 14:20-23). Do you not see that those who will not enter are those that persistently disbelieve in God and his power? Of what use is God's forgiveness for unbelievers. While you answer can you explain the perceived view of what the Jews attempted to do in hiding the part of the Torah on stoning? |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 8:52pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:The judgment would have been a TOTAL disinheritance of the Children of Israel Ohyoudidnt:Actually only two people were spared of those who left Egypt (Joshua and Caleb). It was because these two were exception to the others in faithfulness to God. The rest died in the wilderness. Num 14:30 "Doubtless you shall not come into the land, concerning which I swore to make you dwell therein, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun." Even, Moses was not spared of God's judgement as he was judged by God and did NOT enter the promised land Numbers 20:12: "But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 'Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.'" Ohyoudidnt:I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 9:01pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:1. The prophet himself couldn't read 2. One who could read but had incomplete recall of the law could be deceived. Concealment of the law refers to the act of intentionally withholding or hiding legal information that is relevant to a case or situation. It amounts to fraudulent concealment when an individual hides information with the intent to deceive another party. Distortion of the law, on the other hand, involves altering or misrepresenting legal principles or facts to serve a particular agenda. Now was the law misrepresented when it was concealed? In Surah Al-Ma’idah, verse 13, the term تَحْرِيف (tahrif) refers to the act of distorting or altering the words of the Scripture. This distortion can involve changing the meanings of the texts or taking them out of their proper context. The verse highlights that due to their breach of covenant, certain groups have engaged in this manipulation, leading to a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of divine guidance. The concept of distortion in Islam is not limited to textual changes; it also encompasses broader theological implications regarding faith and practice within Islam. It serves as a warning against altering divine messages and emphasizes the importance of preserving authenticity in religious teachings. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 9:08pm On Jul 22, 2024 |
TenQ:Looking to additional historical finding, is Iraeneus in his book Against Heresies lying where he presents Ezra as an essential figure who restored and preserved Jewish law through divine inspiration after it had been lost or corrupted during exile? Will continue later please... |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 4:54am On Jul 23, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Irenaeus was born around 130 AD and died around 202 AD while Ezra existed about 458 BC. The gap between them is 637 years. Thus without other historical source dating to closer to the time of Ezra, such information you gave (if true) is valueless as a historical source. This is why Ibn Abbas would be a better historical source about Mohammed than Zakir Naik. Almost all we know about Ezra are in two ancient historical books of Ezra and Nehemiah and neither remotely gave any hint of him restoring the Torah. Ezra read and explained the Torah to the people, he did not write the Torah. BUT If (for the sake of argument) let's say your claim is true, then 1. If Ezra did his job perfectly and reproduced the Torah accurately, then Allah in the Qur'an is accurate about confirming the Torah 2. If Ezra did his job imperfectly and reproduced the Torah inaccurately, then Allah in the Qur'an is inaccurate and in error about confirming the Torah. To confirm a book is to attest to the accuracy and validity of that book. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 5:01am On Jul 23, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:In other words, going with your definitions, the concealment or distortion of the scripture by the Jews was done orally and not textually. If the concealment or distortion of the Torah was done textually, Allah would have been wrong for confirmation of a book that had been corrupted. Like you said: "The concept of distortion in Islam is not limited to textual changes; it also encompasses broader theological implications regarding faith and practice within Islam. It serves as a warning against altering divine messages and emphasizes the importance of preserving authenticity in religious teachings." Allah would be correct for warning the Jews against orally or verbally distorting their scripture |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by Ohyoudidnt: 6:49am On Jul 23, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:Many rabbi priests recognize that as Judaism evolved, changes were introduced into the Torah wording for a myriad of reasons The eighteen alterations of Scripture, listed in the classic work Ochlah W’Ochlah TenQ:Going by your submissions on years when persons existed are you implying it is impossible to authenticate information due to large time difference between them? Do you submit that there was absolutely no means to investigate and validate? Allah making reference to a Torah is the original given to Moses or you think Allah is not aware of all things that happan? As I had submitted in a previous post distortion isn't just restricted to textual variations but also includes implementation as the Jewish <priests > attempted to do in hiding a part of the law. |
| Re: The Holy Spirit In The Qur'an Cannot Be Angel Jibril by TenQ(op): 8:28am On Jul 23, 2024 |
Ohyoudidnt:If this is true then Allah is False! Ohyoudidnt:It is easy to judge. Who should be the best and most accurate between Ibn Abbas and Zakir Naik as a historical source about prophet Mohammed? Can my report on Mohammed be more accurate than report from Aisha? Ohyoudidnt:This is the crux of the whole matter: There is no iota of evidence to believe that Allah gave the Qur'an to Mohammed. Every evidence shows that the Qur'an is the writing of 6th century people feigning spiritual authority. 1. Islam depends and claim to build on the prophets from earlier scriptures 2. There is no previous scripture that claimed verbatim speech of God 3. The style of writing of the Qur'an is completely different from the earlier scriptures 4. Errors that cannot possibly come from God exist in the Qur'an (Scientific, Mathematical, Historical etc) 5. There is NOT one evidence apart from the claim of Mohammed that he was visited by Jibril or got any information from God 6. Characters alien to the God of the earlier scriptures are present in the Qur'an such as Halal prostitution (Mutah) and Halal love-vendor business for Muslim men. 7. Usually, the God of the scriptures before Islam would authenticate His prophets with Signs such as Miracles or Prophecies for which Mohammed wasn't given any. 8. Usually the God of the earlier scriptures spoke directly or by inspiration to their prophets and not through Angels unlike Mohammed. 9. The Character of Mohammed is terrible as a human being not to speak of a prophet. A man that can marry the wife of his adopted son is not respectable even in this perverse generation 10. The author feigning to be Allah often forget that he is supposed to be speaking in first person. Surah Al-Fathia is a good example. Ohyoudidnt:No problem! I agree with you. Even you Muslims do exactly that . Eg. -Allah says pray three times a day, you pray five times -Allah says do Mutah, you made Mutah haram -Allah says the The Jews and Christians take their Rabbis and Monks as Lords instead of Allah AND the Messiah you say no -Allah says he and his angels pray on Mohammed, you say no that he didn't say that Just a few of what you Muslims do on your Qur'an. |
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