₦airaland Forum

osothermal:
Oh actually I'm with my partner who is working full time hence we're okay. As a student working partime you'll be okay if you don't have school fees to pay

IbeOkehie:
I'm continually forced to question these assumptions.

In the 1970s during the Oil Boom, a lot of Nigerians with skills and education from abroad migrated back to Nigeria permanently, with no Green Cards or foreign citizenship. Maybe because I attended an FGC, I knew a lot of these people....but even in the small towns I grew up in, some of the local regular workers were returnees from abroad. I mostly grew up in a small tourist town in Imo State.

The local post master returned from Greece. The doctor who attended the births of my siblings was a returnee from Germany. The local vetenarian returned from UK. At least 3 of the school teachers came back from UK or USA. Heck, there were TWO Asian Indians families who were teachers too!

So there must have been many more such people in the bigger cities of Lagos, PH, Enugu and Ibadan. Have you heard of Pius Adesanmi, the Yoruba writer who died in the Ethiopia Airline crash? His family returned to Nigeria from UK and he wrote a bit on the internet about growing up with that background in Nigeria.

How come nobody talks about what happened to those families? Did they prosper? Did they regret returning or were they happy?

There were families that refused to return to Nigeria in the 1970s and remained abroad, some ILLEGALLY. Their children lost their connection to Nigeria. How do they or their parents feel about that?

Do you people ever ask yourselves what were the outcomes? Today 50 years later, what were the lessons learned? 🤔 It beats me silly that there's an entire body of experience and statistics that can guide our decisions and people are still stuck on speculation.

In particular I've asked @Gerrard and a few others that I suspect should know. How come nobody ever discusses this issue?

Anyway Oga, nature will take its course, pun intended. See I didn't make any claim about what is better or about the value of a connection to our native land. All I'm asking is, has anyone bothered to ask what happened to those who have lived through similar times in the past? Yes, because this isn't the first mass migration in our history. Because I remember when Buhari was President back in 1985, he was urging Nigerians to stop migrating abroad. Jakpa was called "Andrew" back then.

So Oga Nature your worries are beyond your power. Igbo people say use your tongue to count your teeth.

Good Luck to Nigeria.

Ilekokonit:
In the UK for example, health is free from cradle to grave if you get papers or acquire citizenship later on.

ALL Government schools are free and of top notch quality.

Parents get some form of child benefit and working family tax credit between the ages of 0 and 18 of the child.

From age 18, students get generous student loans from the student loans company owned by the Govt and they don't start paying back the loan until they start working and even at that they have to be earning above a certain amount before they can be asked for any repayment and the repayments are very affordable and if they don't get a job quick enough after graduation, as long as they regularly show the Govt the steps they are taking to find a job, their FULL rent is paid by the Govt and if they are below 25 they get £311 monthly extra allowance on top of their rent and if above 25 they get £393 monthly extra on top of the Govt paying their FULL rent.

That's why it is hard to see any burglar proof (fire hazard) on any UK window because unless you are on drugs and need money to fund your drug habit you will never be desperate enough to break into someones house to steal even if you are unemployed because the Govt takes care of the basics for you. Water, light, food, house according to Fela Kuti's Song - Original Sufferhead.

An unemployed person who later finds work is always too happy to contribute his taxes and National insurance contributions into the Goth coffers 'cos the Govt was there for him with a SAFETY NET that prevented him from hitting rock bottom or becoming destitute when he was unemployed and it is this system of paying your taxes and NI that funds the UK social security system.

Its not rocket science but our wicked leaders in Nigeria some of whom used to live in the UK will never introduce this kind of equitable system in Nigeria because that would mean that the pool of millions of downtrodden Nigerians they can pick their servants, drivers, cooks, cleaners, gatemen from will dry up and they will become demystified because no one will then be desperate enough to bow down to these Nigerian politicians out of poverty.

When some people criticize Nigerians wicked politicians, its because we KNOW that there is a better more equitable system that will work into perpetuity that our wicked leaders are not introducing.

It takes just 1 kind hearted leader with compassion to introduce a comprehensive system of social security like what the British introduced in 1948 in Nigeria and the servitude of the masses will end. But will our wicked Nigerian politicians listen ?

osothermal:
I have a dependant

NaijaVietnamese:
God have mercy, make una Dey lie with fear of God abeg! Which country in this world would you see average employee doctors earning $50,000 per month!!! Are those two Nigerians specialist brain or heart surgeons!!!!

That’s a lie from the pit of hell.

erico2k2:
U know those people we just start nah so dem dey talk.everybody ignorant nah them sabi pass.

Memphis's inequality closely tracks with race, with Black people carrying a much higher risk of poverty.

Methodist University Hospital's management — including CEO Dr. Michael Ugwueke, who was paid $1.6 million in total compensation last year and former CEO Gary Shorb, who draws $1.2m/year to serve as Ugwueke's advisor — are apparently pursuing this agenda on their own. One former long-serving board member, Beverly Robertson (2003-12) says she had no idea that the hospital had pursued its patients so aggressively.

IbeOkehie:
I never tell lies because I don't post anonymously. I only post on what I'm sure about. Salary data for high earning EMPLOYEES, especially those of hospitals and non-profits, are widely available online. Sometimes you can even get the salaries of high level employees at private quoted companies. There are many Nigerian employees I know of who earn over $500K annually. There's this Yoruba guy working for oil company in Houston that I looked up, he was making $400K per year. Then there was my neighbor for a while and another I know of for fact, but I'll just go with a hospital CEO. Many working doctors at these hospitals earn more than the CEO, again I know this for a FACT.

https://www.propublica.org/article/methodist-le-bonheur-healthcare-ceo-promises-review-of-policies

https://boingboing.net/2019/06/27/1-6-mil-to-ceo-ugwueke.html



In all I write, I'm not overly concerned about HIGH INCOME earners or the top of the pyramid in ANY COUNTRY. My main concern is the PROSPECTS for average people like me who come from the poor to middle classes.

This is graduation season in the USA. I have three family friends or acquaintances who just graduated as nurses in Texas, Virginia and Georgia, ALL of them already had Nigerian university degrees before they arrived here 5 to 10 years ago, one of them is a Law graduate from one of the old federal universities. Their average starting pay is $33/hr, and they each got CASH signing bonus of $20K to $30K. I'm sure each of them can now comfortably send ₦500K = $325 per month to Nigeria, but I would advise them to use it as payment on a 5 year new car loan instead

One of them her husband is already a Nurse Practioner and I know their starting salary is $130K per year. So right now that couple is earning over $200K per year, guaranteed. That means they earn more than 90% of all households in the USA according to IRS data. I suppose they should have stayed in Nigeria or maybe return now and aspire to be the next Jim Ovia and Chinyelu Okoli or Dangote and Don Jazzy in Nigeria. LOL, I hope it works out for you all.

Good Luck to Nigerians.

RodgersAkpafu:
This right here is the thing
especially in the United States, if you put your head down, you will see the rewards sometime down the road
you can't say same for naija

Even here in the United Kingdom, although the economy is not as diverse as the USA, but its still a place where dreams can come true IF you put in the work, learn the skills needed and position yourself in the right industry
there are folks in the UK making £70k annually in Canary Wharf.

But in naija, the avenue for such mobility no dey like that

IbeOkehie:
Please tell them. Facts speak for themselves. No need to look far in the age of internet. Here's one from Baltimore Maryland, one of the UNDESIRABLE cities in the USA. I chose this house because I know a Nigerian couple that bought on the same street back in 1986 for $90K.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1127-Cowpens-Ave-Baltimore-MD-21286/36411353_zpid/

This house was bought for $79K in 1979. Today it's priced over $500K. The records as shown make it likely that it's owned by the same person/family that originally bought it in 1979 because it hasn't been bought or sold since then. It's very likely the mortgage is paid off. Ditto for the Nigerian family, they've lived there since I came to this country. The man is a high school teacher, wife is a nurse.

So what exactly is the problem with mortgage biko nu? Gain of $400K = ₦560 million at current exchange rate. As in, half a billion naira....this man and wife can sell their house and get half billion naira cash. And the kids are all grown, one is nurse, one engineer at Microsoft. When the parents do die, these kids will inherit this profit. Imagine how comfortable their grand children will be. Would this have been possible in Nigeria?

YoshihideSuga:
No vex sir, are things really so hard in Nigeria, especially outside Lagos, Port-harcourt and Abuja?

IbeOkehie:
I never tell lies because I don't post anonymously. I only post on what I'm sure about. Salary data for high earning EMPLOYEES, especially those of hospitals and non-profits, are widely available online. Sometimes you can even get the salaries of high level employees at private quoted companies. There are many Nigerian employees I know of who earn over $500K annually. There's this Yoruba guy working for oil company in Houston that I looked up, he was making $400K per year. Then there was my neighbor for a while and another I know of for fact, but I'll just go with a hospital CEO. Many working doctors at these hospitals earn more than the CEO, again I know this for a FACT.

https://www.propublica.org/article/methodist-le-bonheur-healthcare-ceo-promises-review-of-policies

https://boingboing.net/2019/06/27/1-6-mil-to-ceo-ugwueke.html



In all I write, I'm not overly concerned about HIGH INCOME earners or the top of the pyramid in ANY COUNTRY. My main concern is the PROSPECTS for average people like me who come from the poor to middle classes.

This is graduation season in the USA. I have three family friends or acquaintances who just graduated as nurses in Texas, Virginia and Georgia, ALL of them already had Nigerian university degrees before they arrived here 5 to 10 years ago, one of them is a Law graduate from one of the old federal universities. Their average starting pay is $33/hr, and they each got CASH signing bonus of $20K to $30K. I'm sure each of them can now comfortably send ₦500K = $325 per month to Nigeria, but I would advise them to use it as payment on a 5 year new car loan instead

One of them her husband is already a Nurse Practioner and I know their starting salary is $130K per year. So right now that couple is earning over $200K per year, guaranteed. That means they earn more than 90% of all households in the USA according to IRS data. I suppose they should have stayed in Nigeria or maybe return now and aspire to be the next Jim Ovia and Chinyelu Okoli or Dangote and Don Jazzy in Nigeria. LOL, I hope it works out for you all.

Good Luck to Nigerians.

RodgersAkpafu:
I'm just wondering
Why the "Anglo West" distinction in all your posts.

France and Germany are also very good countries , maybe language barriers but apart from that they are alright too

RodgersAkpafu:
This is a very interesting read...
Seems like we have had one or two engagements on twitter before
anyways that aside, this is my perspective sha

Just like you, I'll say that the biggest pro, despite the many ugly sides to spending your formative years in Nigeria is that you learn GRATITUDE and appreciate more, what the west has to offer.

A second generation American or Brit will see the country as his country (which is the norm and expected) and only see the issues and conplain a lot, entitlement may even creep in
but for us that came from literal "hell fire" , we appreciate more what is available in the west and work with it.

You made a reference about the rich in Nigeria and how people think they are criminals.
My fellow Nigerian, take it from me, most "rich" fellows in Nigeria are "criminals" or lemme use a more polite word, rent seekers.

The Nigerian economy is what you call a near imperfect economy, in an economic sense, that means that outlandish economic returns are very much possible, especially when you throw in cronyism and weak institutions in the mix.....
That explains how soneone can out of the blues blow, in Nigeria and say China, than in the west, because as an economy nears perfection, the returns normalise, and the returns tend closer to zero as the economy nears perfection (there is no 100% perfect economy sha, because that will mean zero returns)
My point is the supposed elite class claiming big boys in Nigeria, operating in a space where the economy nears the perfection line exposes their underbelly, so I understand WHY they will think that rich Nigerians are crooks (not all but most) and I side them on that one.

The undertone as to why I say that my descendants have minimum interaction with Nigeria is because the dominant cultural mentality in that space is antithetical to common sense and proper development...
to put it more mildly, I don't agree with it and to be frank that is the major motivation for escaping the country

I strongly believe that burning myself out and sending them to the best schools here like Winchester Eton or one fancy school in Switzerland that i used to admire will be better for them in the long run, as they will make global connections which will better position them for great things in the west , which Nigeria cannot offer let's be frank.

I see my sons as a Kwasi Kwarteng, Sajid Javid, Sunak or Chan...... or even Tidjane Thiam
that's the vision for them....
but for now they are all dreams and that's what I work towards day and night everyday.

the above answers your question about social capital. Going to Eton or Winchester gives you social capital that BIS or Turkish international cannot give.

on a final note, you made mention of the rat race and the debt accumulation that they have.
I wonder why a typical Nigerian who grew up in Nigeria have this kind of antagonist mentality towards debt.
Debt is the number one wealth building tool and has been what have pulled hundreds of millions of folks across the western world and even China out of poverty.
Our aversion to debt is the reason why Africa will remain poor and wretched, because just like a knife that is a good tool, but could kill as well, debt is the same
will you say cos knife can kill, I won't use it ?

On a final note, I can tell that you are a very intelligent person who has some balance.
I wish you the very best out there mehn.

Gerrard59:
Some ethnicities would find it hard to thrive in some sectors in Nigeria.

SoNature:
My biggest concern about leaving this country is starting a generation that will never return to their country ever again.

onadana:
Like my son,I know he won't return back to Nigeria because he has no stake there.He never speaks about Nigeria and is not interested about anything Nigeria. He did Nursery Primary and secondary school in Nigeria but never had Nigeria at heart.He is gone for good.

helinues:
The places they are running to, they would still need to work their ass off because no free things even in Freetown.

I am not discouraging those who want to Japa oo, but before you Japa, make sure you have degree/certificates that could earn you jobs immediately you arrived at your destination, have skills about things that can fetch you money.

ihavesense:
Lol you are trying to sound reasonable but you are a tribalist.
I am sure that you don’t want to travel because you believe that tinubu will make Nigeria great 😆

Mercenary123:
. That guy you just quoted is a state agent. He is doing exactly what he is paid for. To always redirect discussions and change narratives to favour the country

He is good at it

Laird:
Any one who can open a business in Africa and legally and honestly generate significant revenue and the accruing profits that beat inflation should do so but keep options open

helinues:
The places they are running to, they would still need to work their ass off because no free things even in Freetown.

I am not discouraging those who want to Japa oo, but before you Japa, make sure you have degree/certificate that could earn you jobs immediately you arrived at your destination, have skills about things that can fetch you money.

5eyesWikipedia:
You are the one who is poor and looking for who to scam into your travel lies. People should beware of this guy @Twoods he is in the Eastern part of Nigeria claiming visa agent. People are still doing great in Nigeria . Avoid him. God Bless Nigeria.

tshtsh:
You even tried to respond to him. I see many like him in Canada who think Canada is heaven and continue to share data about Nigeria's poverty and all that. The society has wired them to think the rat ace life they live is paradise. There are Nigerians doing amazingly well in Nigeria and there are those struggling to get by. As a person I make decisions based on what works for me not based on some data. Some of them return to Nigeria on wheel chair in old age and live a miserable life after living the rat race life abroad

tshtsh:
You even tried to respond to him. I see many like him in Canada who think Canada is heaven and continue to share data about Nigeria's poverty and all that. The society has wired them to think the rat ace life they live is paradise. There are Nigerians doing amazingly well in Nigeria and there are those struggling to get by. As a person I make decisions based on what works for me not based on some data. Some of them return to Nigeria on wheel chair in old age and live a miserable life after living the rat race life abroad

IbeOkehie:
The data is important. It's about probability, chances and such. Hostility to statistics is a Nigerian cultural failing. If you still don't get it, then you're too young to understand.

(1) You say you did NYSC in Nigeria in 2019. Are you in touch with your your NYSC mates? Overall how are those of them in Nigeria faring in the current economy?

(2) You seem to be very young, so you may not know that a huge number of Nigerians abroad returned permanently to Nigeria in the 1970s. You should ask older Nigerians how those people turned out. And also, it would be useful to compare those returnees to those who remained abroad in the 1970s both legally and illegally.

I think your parents must be rich Nigeria based business or government big wigs. Understand that the DATA shows your circumstances are the EXCEPTION and not the rule in Nigeria. Again it's about general outcomes, not you in particular. [b]

I don't want to live in a country where people need high social capital to get petrol to put in their car.

Gerrard59:
It is an issue with most Nigerians online - they debate anecdotally. Just because people see pockets of wealth here and there mostly in Lagos, Abuja and Port-Harcourt does not mean on a whole Nigerians are doing well, at least compared to the early 2000s. Nigeria does not start in Lagos and ends in Abuja.

IbeOkehie:
This article again is worth a good read for everyone - https://businessday.ng/columnist/article/time-to-end-the-nigeria-is-rich-myth/

I'll add that I have extensive experience, reports and observation on the matter of Nigeria vs UK/USA. My conclusion is that in the long term, living in the UK/USA even as an illegal migrant offers a better chance of living a long life AND accumulating wealth above the world 50th percentile and attaining a lifestyle consistent with WORLD middle class standards.

When I got my bachelor's degree here in the USA, I remember that the percentage of adults with university degrees was 12.5%, whereas in Nigeria it was around 3%. Even at the time of Obasanjo's presidency when private universities were becoming popular, I remember it was around 5%. The point being that University graduates in Nigeria are a very ELITE group, they're a very small and privileged slice and

even then, most of them don't live better than a working non-university educated UK/USA resident of Black descent.

Nigeria got independence in 1960, the USA Civil Rights Act bestowing full rights to Black Americans was passed in 1965. Here's some statistics that anyone interested in the Nigeria vs USA/UK comparison should find interesting.

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+the+GDP+of+Black+America+as+a+nation&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS837US837&oq=what+is+the+GDP+of+Black+America+as+a+nation&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigAdIBCTE5MzI1ajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I could go on and on. I have an 18 year old Black American working beside me today...owns a car and rents an apartment which I'm sure have the usual amenities that are basic to housing here. And doesn't have to queue to buy petrol. How many 40 year olds in Nigeria live better than that?

Yet supposedly educated Nigerians when comparing these countries and their prospects for the average person will cite Aliko Dangote and Olugbenga Agboola and Don Jazzy. How stupid is that? There's no wondering why Nigeria is the Poverty Capital of the World when the educated ones can't even think logically.

Gerrard59:
The conversation has been very interesting and data-driven. Thanks to Mr IbeOkehie. Even though we disagree on a few issues. Thanks too to Mr Tshtsh. Mr Ibe, I think your animosity is largely because of the sector you attempted to break into, coupled with your ethnicity. Some ethnicities would find it hard to thrive in some sectors in Nigeria.

IbeOkehie:
Heard from an old friend this past weekend. Software guy, we were friends 10 to 15 years ago, we lost contact. He lives in Owerri, Imo State now, doing a USA software job from home @ $75K per year salary. He moved back to Nigeria after his marriage broke down, his wife is a medical doctor, they have 3 children.

Another old friend is packed and heading to Nigeria to retire and live there. He will live on his retirement paycheck from USA. We had a looong discussion during which I tried AGAIN to dissuade him. I even referred him to our village discussion forum where one rich guy who made that move 10 years ago has posted his regrets and has moved back to Atlanta where he was before. He said he spent $200K building a student hostel in Nigeria than now earns him $120 per month, he posted pictures and everything.

Gerrard59:
This makes sense as well as receiving pensions while living in Nigeria. White Americans do it a lot across Central American countries and South East Asia. I am curious, is he married currently? What about the children from the previous marriage?

Any business a diasporan must invest in Nigeria has to generate dollars as revenue else the person should cut the losses and move on. In my books, the only worthy place to do real estate investment in Nigeria is Lagos. That said, good luck to our people who try such.