₦airaland Forum

jaephoenix:
You said there were no christians attacking non christian. I showed you. Now you're saying they aren't much compared to sane christians. Who is a 'sane' christian? Do you know how much insults or curses atheists get on Nairaland from your 'sane' christians? If they meet in real life, what stops those christians from attacking the atheists? As an atheist, you can't even complain to the police that Christians or Muslims are attacking you. You'll worsen the whole matter

jaephoenix:
Ok, Christians that announce 'What god cannot do does not exist' as a post, etc are attention seekers?

TenQ:
Too bad that you don't know that EVERY follower of Jesus is first a Disciple. Even an Apostle is first a Disciple.

Mat 27:57:
"When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:"


Common sense did not tell you that some of the Disciples who fled can return to follow Jesus so as to monitor the case of His judgement?

John 18:15-16:
"And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known to the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known to the high priest, and spoke to her that kept the door, and brought in Peter."

Mat 26:69-75:
"Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came to him, saying, You also were with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what you say. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said to them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. And after a while came to him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely you also are one of them; for your speech denudes you. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said to him, Before the cock5 crow, you shall deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly."

Sorry sir!

TenQ:
Too bad that you don't know that EVERY follower of Jesus is first a Disciple. Even an Apostle is first a Disciple.

Mat 27:57:
"When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:"


Common sense did not tell you that some of the Disciples who fled can return to follow Jesus so as to monitor the case of His judgement?

John 18:15-16:
"And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known to the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known to the high priest, and spoke to her that kept the door, and brought in Peter."

Mat 26:69-75:
"Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came to him, saying, You also were with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what you say. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said to them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. And after a while came to him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely you also are one of them; for your speech denudes you. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said to him, Before the cock crow, you shall deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly."

Sorry sir!

TenQ:
The Messiah means NOTHING in the Qur'an: it's just the title copied from the Christians who call Jesus the Messiah.

FYI: Jews Never Ever call Jesus the Messiah!

I know what the Christians and Jews mean by the term Messiah "the Anointed One" who is to Rule the earth and bring restoration and judgment to the whole world from Jerusalem for all eternity

What does Allah or Qur'an mean by the title "the Messiah"?

TenQ:
Here is what Sahih International translation said (is this my translation?)

Surah An-Nisa 4:157
"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

Can you then explain the statement from Sahih International translation but [another] was made to resemble him to them. ?


Did you analyse this verse for exact proof that another was made to resemble him
in the arabic.

Is this the only valid translation of the meaning of the verse from arabic


Of a truth, it is you Muslims who have the most of the several conjectures.
Some say Judas was the one killed
Some say it was John that was killed
Others say it was Joseph of Arimathea
And others like you don't know the answer

TenQ:
Ps 91 applies to every one who depends on God.
QED!

Except you can show me how Jesus did not strike his foot upon the stone and show that Jesus lived to be an old man.

Other than this, you are just wasting time for the bible says that Jesus was crucified AND Jesus died AND Jesus was buried AND Jesus resurrected from the dead AND Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of his disciples!

honesttalk21:
Interesting what you learn or are taught in your bible school and studies.

1. John 18:15-16
15 Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he entered with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest,
16 but Peter stood outside at the door. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the servant girl who kept watch at the door and brought Peter in.

2. Matthew 27:57
When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

3. Matthew 26:69-75
69 Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came up to him and said, You also were with Jesus the Galilean.
70 But he denied it before them all, saying, I do not know what you mean.
71 Then he went out to the gateway, where another servant girl saw him and said to the people there, This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 He denied it again, with an oath: I don’t know the man!
73 After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, “Surely you are one of them; your accent gives you away.”
74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, ‘I do not know the man.’ And immediately the rooster crowed.

Now analyzing these passages we see that:
John 18:15-16 indicates some disciples were near during Jesus’s trial.

Matthew 27:57 focuses on Joseph’s actions post-crucifixion without mentioning other disciples.

Matthew 26:69-75 shows Peter’s denial while he is outside during part of Jesus’ trial.

None of these passages provide direct evidence that any disciples witnessed the actual crucifixion event itself; they suggest proximity during earlier events leading up to it and an event post crucifixion but do not confirm witnessing it directly.

honesttalk21:
A believer in Christ is someone who has faith in Jesus.

A follower of Jesus goes beyond mere belief; it implies an active engagement with His teachings and a commitment to live according to His example. Following Jesus involves making Him a priority in one’s life and adhering to His commands as stated in Matthew 16:24. It reflects a deeper relationship characterized by obedience and discipleship. However note this verse is a direct statement to disciples.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

The term “disciple” comes from the Greek word “mathetes,” which means student or learner. A disciple is someone who not only believes in Jesus but also actively follows Him, learns from Him, and seeks to emulate His life and teachings (Matthew 28:19-20). Discipleship requires total commitment, sacrifice, and a willingness to share the message of Christ with others.

Mary of Cleophas appears in several passages within the Gospels but primarily as a witness rather than an active disciple. She is noted for being present at critical moments such as the crucifixion (John 19:25) and possibly at the resurrection (Matthew 28:1). However, her role does not align with that of a disciple who was called by Jesus during his ministry or who received direct instructions from him.

Same applies to your other alleged disciples.

honesttalk21:
In the Hebrew Bible, the term messiah (from the Hebrew word mashiach, meaning “anointed one”) is used to refer to several figures who were anointed for specific roles or tasks, particularly kings and priests.

Cyrus is referred to as God’s anointed in Isaiah 45:1. He was the king of Persia who conquered Babylon and allowed the Jewish exiles to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple.

King David is often seen as a messianic figure due to God’s covenant with him, promising that his lineage would endure forever (2 Samuel 7:12-16). David was anointed by the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 16:13) and is considered a model of kingship in Israel.

Solomon, David’s son, was also anointed king (1 Kings 1:39) and is known for building the First Temple in Jerusalem.

Jehu was anointed king over Israel by a prophet sent by Elisha (2 Kings 9:6). His mission was to eradicate Baal worship from Israel and fulfill God’s judgment against the house of Ahab.

You can see different characters associated and named messiah from the original language of the Hebrews.

The Hebrew Bible contains prophecies about a future messianic figure who will restore Israel and bring peace, often referred to in texts like Isaiah 11:1-10 and Jeremiah 23:5-6.

This restoration of Israel and bringing of peace is yet to occur hence this aspect of the messiah prophesy for the hebrews is still awaited.

You see how even the hebrew bible identifies different messiah and make nothing extraordinarily unique about what you lay claim to on Jesus.

The Quran did not claim to talk of all previous prophets as this may not be important to pass the essential message of God to man.

honesttalk21:
The Essenes who aren't muslim claim an eyewitness account written by a member of suggests that Jesus did not die on the cross but instead survived his crucifixion. According to this narrative, after being taken down from the cross, he was revived by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, who were said to possess secret healing knowledge. This account portrays a completely human version of Jesus’ life and death, stripping away supernatural elements.

The Acts of John, which contains mystical elements and describes visions experienced by John during the crucifixion. In this narrative, it is suggested that what appeared to be Jesus’ suffering was merely an illusion or a mystery that could not be fully understood by those witnessing it.

honesttalk21:
Psalm 91 applies to everyone and by your doctrine isn't Jesus the first of who it applies to?

How then is it that
Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare
and from the deadly pestilence not fulfilled?

Just as well For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.

Is it that the events pre, during and post the crucifixion narrative are excluded from the ways of Jesus?

James the Just was thrown down from a height and stoned to death. Was he exempted from the Psalms 91 or are these writings mere words?

TenQ:
Following your argument, Aisha , Zainab,Hafsa etc were not one of the Sahaba of Mohammed!

TenQ:
According to Christian theology, is Jesus coming back again?
For what purpose?


I hope you can be truthful for once

honesttalk21:
Deep at sea without a paddle?

Is a companion the same as a disciple?
Are you forcing and equality?

Why does your Bible distinctly say 12 disciples?
Of this number how many actually witnessed the alleged event of the crucifixion of Jesus ?

It's not even up to 10%. Is this a statically acceptable number?

honesttalk21:
Does your question signify you agree with the other Hebrew classification of people that are messiah?

honesttalk21:
Deep at sea without a paddle?

Is a companion the same as a disciple?
Are you forcing and equality?

Why does your Bible distinctly say 12 disciples?
Of this number how many actually witnessed the alleged event of the crucifixion of Jesus ?

It's not even up to 10%. Is this a statically acceptable number?

TenQ:
Khai!
Your ignorance of what you go against doesn't cease to amaze me.

An Apostle is first a Disciple: he is one chosen from amongst the disciples and SENT out by Christ

Luk 6:13:
"And when it was day, he called to him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;"

Sorry ehn!!

TenQ:
Show me that the Jews expect more than ONE True Messiah!
Please be kind to tell me the Names of the TRUE Messiah of the Jews.

BTW:
According to Allah and his prophet, what is the Messiah?

TenQ:
Do you for once think you have the authority to DEFINE as a Muslim what is meant by the term DISCIPLE!!?

You do not even need to take my word for it BUT at least adopt the Truth as presented in the Bible.

According to the Bible:
Are only the 12 Apostles of Christ His disciples?

jaephoenix:
Again, why didn't you tell the OP to let atheists worry about the conversion?

honesttalk21:
What then is the essence of specifically selecting the 12?

honesttalk21:
Wrong!
According to Hebrew text are the people earlier mentioned regarded as messiah or messianic?

honesttalk21:
In whichever way you choose to name it.

Who among the chosen 12 witnessed the actual crucifixion?

This is essentially the question you are unable to answer.

A question about the absolute truth of the alleged truth?

In the second coming of Jesus is he to establish the kingdom on Earth or Paradise?

Why is it absurd to do both and if he is to establish it in Paradise will he die again or actually truly die?

TenQ:
To be Apostles to him.

Luk 6:13:
"And when it was day, he called to him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;"

OLAADEGBU:
Bombshell study on Shroud of Turin supports theory it WAS used to wrap body of Jesus

Absolutely incredible findings 🙏

dailymail.co.uk

TenQ:
John the Disciple of Jesus was at the cross of crucifixion with Mary the mother of Jesus. John always referred to himself as the Disciple who Jesus loved.

This same John was at the last supper with Jesus

John 13:23-25
"One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, 'Ask him which one he means.' Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, 'Lord, who is it?'"

Mary the mother of Jesus loved with this same disciple after the death of Jesus Christ.

John 19:27:
"Then said he to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."

OLAADEGBU:
Bombshell study on Shroud of Turin supports theory it WAS used to wrap body of Jesus

Absolutely incredible findings 🙏

dailymail.co.uk

luluman:
Because the OP never targeted an attack on christianity.

honesttalk21:
Apostles are a special type of disciples.
These group kept watch over Jesus before his arrest.
It seems some were around the trial yet only one witnessed the actual crucifixion?

How convincing!

honesttalk21:
Does this claim of Jesus loving a particular discipline not question if he loved the other disciples or apostles?