₦airaland Forum

Jozzy4:
"The Son " doesn't exist before he came to earth.

He was just an ordinary person going by your logic

MaxInDHouse:
If you're not ready to agree with the ENGLISH DICTIONARY on the word FIRSTBORN then why are you claiming it's SIMPLE ENGLISH?

Janosky:

" Jesus is First born of every creature " NOT first born of the uncreated.
Adam is in whose image?
Jesus is in whose image?
Trinity nah scam.


Emusan,in your family is your POSITION/RANK higher than the first born?

What is the POSITION/RANK of the first born of God?

Oga,Continue to deceive yourself.
What a dunce!

Emusan:
I agreed with English dictionary I'm just showing you your hypocrisy because if it suits you agreed with the same human philosophy but if it is against you, you called it just human philosophy. So, bring in your English dictionary of firstborn!

MaxInDHouse:
I don't flow with ENGLISH LANGUAGE because that's not the original language inspired writers used to pen down the scriptures

but since you kept emphasizing on ENGLISH and it's simplicity that's why i said let us check the meaning of FIRSTBORN in any ENGLISH DICTIONARY of your choice.

So it's obvious you know that you're wrong because you won't even wait for me rather you could have rushed in with what the English dictionary says.

According to Oxford ENGLISH DICTIONARY the word FIRSTBORN means first among children:

• The first child to be born to a parent or family.
• Born as the first one in a family, flock or the like.
• Most excellent; most distinguished or exalted among others. Oxford Dictionary

MightySparrow:
Good work brother. NWT supports the doctrine of Trinity than any other translations. There is a God and god. And the scriptures say,

.
Isa.44.6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Here in NWT, there is another god approved by the deluded Governing Body. Who co - created all in creation. He even created The Throne of God because God must be somewhere before He created The Heaven and The Throne all there is everywhere.

Once again, good job.

Emusan:
Good!
Do you notice the @color part?

MaxInDHouse:
If this is what you prefer:

Most excellent; most distinguished or most exalted.

This means there are many that are:

Excellent
Distinguished
Exalted

So AMONG them one is the MOST.

Meaning the firstborn according to the English dictionary is part of the children or those being born!

Jozzy4:
This is misleading

Isa 9:6
Shall be Called ? Future tense, Indicated a beginning of time when he will bear the name.

Was there anywhere it says the Father shall.be called Father at a FUTURE period ?

None

Once again if Son of God doesn't mean created, show me a single place the Father was called that?

Emusan:
The fact is according to the English dictionary, the term FIRSTBORN never has anything to do with CREATE....As this has been established.

So, what is the meaning of FIRSTBORN as used in the scripture for Jesus.

The only part that goes with the dictionary meaning you provided is at that @color part which means the writer of that verse never has Jesus as being CREATED in mind but of something else which will actually mean the @color part

Glad your dictionary meaning shield more light on this.

MaxInDHouse:
The rest is Story my guy.

English dictionary has told us what Firstborn is all about it has to do with children and part of them so if there are creatures the FIRSTBORN of creation is one of those created!

MaxInDHouse:
Fathers surely have a beginning but the father of Jesus never had a beginning o!

Jesus was never an everlasting father until he adopted all obedient descendants of Adam {1Corinthians 15:45} so according to Isaiah.

The Messiah (Christ) will be called:

•Wonderful Counselor because through his wise counsel mankind will settle all their disparities peacefully among themselves, divert their resources into production of food and information materials, stop producing, buying, selling and usage of weapons and vow never to raise weapons against anyone again! Isaiah 2:4 compare to Mark 12:31

•Mighty God because he is going to perform miracles greater than Moses a God in Egypt who is mightier than Pharaoh the greatest king of his time! Exodus 7:1

•Eternal Father because he will buy all Adam's descendants with his blood, Adam became a father to all humans yet he is dead now but Jesus became an adoptive father of obedient humans and he will never ever die again with all the children he bought with his blood.

•Prince of Peace because during his reign the earth will become peaceful from one end to the other end! Psalms 37:9-11

Jehovah has never been referred to as Son or Prince!

Sand2022:
So the point falls apart. That Jesus bear Son is no proof that he MUST have a beginning. I don't want to respond to other parts of your comment because it will derail the point being put forward. Besides John 1:3 is the proof that he was not created.

Sand2022:
You did say that Son has the idea of beginning. This is the point I am discussing, remember? Let's keep to that.

That your position is what is misleading. Father also do apply to people who have beginning just as the word Son. Adam is a Father, Abraham is a Father. Do they not have beginning?

Jesus fatherhood is futuristic. For Christ, what he will be called is what he is. Let's not derail. Fatherhood is like a title. There is no place in the bible that proofs that if one bears the title Father, he doesn't have a beginning. That is the point you're bringing up concerning the Son. This is what I am disproving.

The bible clearly says that apart from Christ, not even ONE thing was created. John 1:3. The only option available is that Christ created himself if we are to insist on him being created. If that statement is illogical, then Christ was not created. Simple.

Emusan:
The Son is a TITLE giving to the ETERNAL WORD of God who became part of the Creation.

ETERNAL LIFE/WORD OF GOD is almighty nor created.

No! He was ETERNAL LIFE/WORD OF GOD.

Emusan:
Without wisdom and understanding couple with disjointed and incoherent sentences despite years of schooling him on Nairaland.

Mr continue to deceive yourself, hear again.

The term FIRSTBORN AS USED BY APOSTLE PAUL was explicitly explained by the same Paul in the same Col 1:18.

Jesus was not the FIRST person the scripture will use the term FIRSTBORN for in regard to POSITION/RANK

Not only that, the reason Jesus must be FIRSTBORN (PREEMINENCE - the actual meaning of that word is because Jesus MUST BE FIRST IN ALL THINGS.

If Jesus is the FIRST CREATED (the term scripture never used for Him) then there's no NEED FOR HIM TO BE PREEMINENCE OVER ALL THINGS again

DLNT: "And He Himself is the head of the body, the church. ... Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in order that He Himself might come-to-be holding-first-place in all things"

GW: "He is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, the first to come back to life so that he would have first place in everything."

MOUNCE: "And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in order that he might be preeminent in everything."

This verse alone proved that Jesus was never part of Creation but when He became part of Creation, He then MUST TAKE FIRSTBORN (SUPREMACY) in ALL THINGS.

I've rehearsed this several times to you people's dull skull.

Even AI understood it and interpret it that way.

Emusan:
Look at how AI explained the verse below.
See that it gave two meanings to the phrase "FIRSTBORN of every creature" but the part that you people always cling to, it inserted Col 1:16-17 to shows that meaning isn't applicable to the writers mind.

The issue with you people is lack of simple comprehension crowned with polluted doctrine.

According to Emusan AI download of Colossians 1:15 , Jesus is the first born in the sense of being the first to be BORN OR CREATED"

Every first born is in his Father's image, character etc.

This meaning is applicable to the writer's mind.

Your AI Colossians 1:15 debunks your FAULTY interpretation of Colossians 1:16-17.

Emusan dey play


The issue with you Emusan's Trinitarian people is lack of simple comprehension crowned with polluted doctrine"

Emusan:
The fact is according to the English dictionary, the term FIRSTBORN never has anything to do with CREATE....As this has been established.

So, what is the meaning of FIRSTBORN as used in the scripture for Jesus.

The only part that goes with the dictionary meaning you provided is at that @color part which means the writer of that verse never has Jesus as being CREATED in mind but of something else which will actually mean the @color part

Glad your dictionary meaning shield more light on this.

Sand2022:
You did say that Son has the idea of beginning. This is the point I am discussing, remember? Let's keep to that.

That your position is what is misleading. Father also do apply to people who have beginning just as the word Son. Adam is a Father, Abraham is a Father. Do they not have beginning?

Jesus fatherhood is futuristic. For Christ, what he will be called is what he is. Let's not derail. Fatherhood is like a title. There is no place in the bible that proofs that if one bears the title Father, he doesn't have a beginning. That is the point you're bringing up concerning the Son. This is what I am disproving.

The bible clearly says that apart from Christ, not even ONE thing was created. John 1:3. The only option available is that Christ created himself if we are to insist on him being created. If that statement is illogical, then Christ was not created. Simple.

Janosky:
Emusan LYING miscreant, did you post this
AI download of Colossians 1:15 ?
" Jesus is the first born in the sense of being the first to be BORN OR CREATED"

Every first born is preeminent in your Bible. Genesis 49:3, Oga go & verify.

Please stop grasping straws.






According to Emusan AI download of Colossians 1:15 , Jesus is the first born in the sense of being the first to be BORN OR CREATED"

Every first born is in his Father's image, character etc.

This meaning is applicable to the writer's mind.

Your AI Colossians 1:15 debunks your FAULTY interpretation of Colossians 1:16-17.

Emusan dey play


The issue with you Emusan's Trinitarian people is lack of simple comprehension crowned with polluted doctrine"

Janosky:

Genesis 1:27 & Matthew 19:4-5, Did Jehovah God created Adam?

Adam was God's first born of the human family.

Jesus is the first born of EVERY CREATURE,"BORN OR CREATED" according to your AI.

Carry your IBERIBEISM komot from this forum jare.

Jozzy4:
Title or not.
Why is the Title Son given ? It indicate a created being.

That's why such a Title was never applied to the Father.

Jozzy4:
You know what's interesting?
99% of those whom Father was applied to in the Bible were once a Son . The Son indicated the beginning of their existence

Can you show me where God the Father was once a Son like Jesus and others refered as Father ? None.

He was never a Son to a Father. Uncreated

Jesus was a Son to a Father , because he was created.

Janosky:
1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3 & Hebrew 1:2, is Jesus Christ the Creator?

The Greek word "dia antou" is the game changer.

Dia antou meaning Jesus is the instrumentality for creation.
Jesus is NEVER the Creator, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Genesis 1:27, Ephesians 3:14-15, & Matthew 19:4-5.[/b]

Sand2022:
Your reply isn't addressing the part of my post you bold faced. I replied Jozzy4 on the issue of Jesus being a creator. You can read it if you wish.

MaxInDHouse:
God created you through your parents! Colossians 1:16

So are your parents your creators?
Of course you will say NO.

The same applies to Jesus, as a spirit being God used him as His first creation to make all other things just as God used Adam to populate our planet with humans no wonder both of them were called God's Sons! John 3:16; Luke 3:38

Emusan:
It's Col 1:15 the same verse that has been knocked into your empty skull several times.
God USED Jesus because your god so impotent that he couldn't do creation ALL BY HIMSELF as against declaration of the Great Yahweh the Godbof Isreal who confirmed that HE DID CREATION ALL BY HIMSELF. Isa 44:24, 40: 28, Ps 104:24, Prov 8:22-30

Sand2022:
So you're agreeing that a Father can also be a son, and that Father does not necessarily mean uncreated. Your argument also implies that son doesn't mean that such one cannot be a Father. And neither is the word Son. This nullifies your argument with the use of the word "son".

Now, why then is God the Father not viewed as created? Not because he is called Father, no. And I don't think you do believe that why God is not created is because he is called Father. That doesn't even make a sense. So why?

Because the Bible tells us that He isn't. The scriptures says "from everlasting to everlasting", your are God. That's why we know He was not created. Secondly, He is our Creator. Our Creator obviously cannot be created Himself.

Now, Jesus meets all those qualifications. The bible says that Jesus origin is from everlasting Prov 8; Micah 5. The same word used for God as "from everlasting" was the one used for Jesus. So it is not whether he is father or son that makes us know who has origin and who doesn't friend.

Secondly, Jesus is definitely a creator. John 1:3 says without him not even one thing was created. If you say he is created, then he created himself. Simple.

Another indication that he is a creator is that he was praised in the book of Psalms as our Creator Jehovah, and Paul quoted that same Psalms and applied it to Jesus.

See how Jesus was praised for creating.

Heb 1

And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end” (NWT)

Meditate on the implication of those bolded areas.

Even the Watchtower agrees that this quotation is from Psalms 102:25-27. And check there, you will see that the psalmist there was praising Jehovah and at Heb 1:10, Paul is applying it to Jesus. So Jesus is the one being praise there as creator. If he was just an instrument, you don't dare praise an instrument for what he was used to do. So Jesus is definitely a creator as Jehovah. Sometimes you see Jesus being said to do what in another portion is said to have been done by God. Why? They are of the same nature. I will breeze in on that more in my next article. So wait for it.

Jozzy4:
Why is God the Father never a Son but every other creature were called a Son?

Emusan:
OLODO...
It was given to him ON EARTH for His mission

Stop going in circle.

This shows how empty you are in scriptural knowledge and you have hooked yourself with this.

Father itself is TITLE, which means the Title Father is what God added at a point not that God has ALWAYS BEEN A FATHER.

Psalm 2:7 that the New Testament writers paraphrase or quoted read:- The king proclaims the Lord’s decree: “The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father."

Which means there was a time God was not a Father too.

Jozzy4:
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

At what point did God became Father of all?

Before Jesus came to earth or After .

But nobody called God the Father a son at any point in history, Because he is uncreated. Everyone else called " Son " had a beginning. The exact same word was applied to every creature.

Jozzy4:
Why is God the Father never a Son but every other creature were called a Son?

MaxInDHouse:
So when Nebuchadnezzar said he built Babylon with his own hands it means the man built the city all alone shey? Daniel 4:30

Come-on even Jesus himself declared that all the glory and honor should go to his father who is the brain behind everything {John 5:30} as he is just like a craftsman beside his Creator during the creation of all other things. Proverbs 8:22-30