₦airaland Forum

Janosky:
Did Yahweh explain to you how Yahweh created the spiritual realm and those spirits dwelling in heaven?

Your Trinitarian godfathers at Nicene coined that term "self-existing & timeless being" to suit their man made doctrine.

Micah 5:2 Hebrew text disagrees.

Colossians 1:15 disagrees.
Revelation 3:14, Jesus disagrees.
1 Corinthians 11:12
.,.
1 Timothy 6:13 disagrees
John 5:26, Jesus Christ disagrees.
"Woman came from man, EVERYTHING (Jesus Christ NOT excepted) comes from the God".

Gabrielshow24:
You quote most of these verses off context!

No one is disputing that!
Jesus said "of my own self I can do nothing save whatsoever the son sees his Father do"

But the fact remains that "both existed in a timeless realm"

That's the take home!

Jesus confirmed his predation of the world!

As usual you forgot to include that!
Read the entire scriptures; don't cherrypick!
And gain full understanding!

achorladey:
Days of yore = ancient days. Tells us the beginning of that ancient days since you know Jesus had a beginning.

Emusan:
So, what is your point?

If not because your brain is paining you.

I said Moses was MADE LIKE GOD not that Moses was GOD!

You jumped into my mention by started saying rubbish as if I'm wrong.

Even your deluded fellow has realized his folly by keeping shut because scripture did not say MOSES WAS GOD as he early lied.

JaNosense I asked again what exactly did you want to prove by quoting me in the first place?

Emusan,What a dunce you are !!
Very low IQ WAILING WAILER seeking attention.


Your Trinitarian New English Translation Bible explained that "Like" was put there @ Exodus 7:1 "for clarity" (screenshot evidence).
Yet you are exposing your IBERIBEISM.
Oga,carry your IBERIBEISM komot from this forum

.

Emusan:
He couldn't answer my simple question because he knows his pot of lies will be opened.

What is the meaning of BEGOTTEN?

Let's see if all Abraham children are not BEGOTTEN and ALL ANGELS ARE NOT BEGOTTEN according to your definition of BEGOTTEN

Janosky:
Micah 5:2 Hebrew text
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, too small to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go out for me, to be ruler in Israel; and his origins are from of old, from ancient days"



Oga ,go & CHANGE Micah 5:2 Hebrew text

OR

Continue WAILING .
That Hebrew text already existed before your Trinitarian godfathers began deceiving you.

Janosky:

(*1)
The beginning of the procreation by man, Genesis 49:3
(*2)
The beginning of creation by God, Revelation 3:14

In context, both scriptures Revelation 3:14 & Genesis 49:3 are saying the same thing about the meaning of the word "BEGINNING".

The Hebrew word for origin (@Micah 5:2) is the same meaning of beginning @Genesis 49:3 ,@ Revelation 3:14 & @ Mark 13:19
"the beginning of creation by the God"/the beginning of creation which the God created " (same meaning ooo, but Trinitarians are TWISTING it because they don't want the Bible truth that Jesus has a beginning).
Oga, you have jumped to the conclusion to label this Bible truth as "cherry picking ","quoting off context".
Your opinion doesn't change Jesus Christ teaching that he is inferior to the God he is worshipping in the spiritual realm as well as the physical realm.

The teaching of Jesus Christ @John 14:28 & Revelation 3:12, is "off context" to Trinitarians.

Gabrielshow24:
Shey you know read wetin talk for above!
No one is disputing that!
The bible says give honor unto whom honor is due!

Or you rather we say the son is greater than the Father?

Was that what you were expecting?
Nope, we are aware of this!
It's nothing new but you lack understanding to put in place.

The son existed with the Father and the Father hath given him all things.

Before time was made he(son) existed that's why christians don't use the term "created" for Jesus.

Gabrielshow24:
He simply is!
That's why Jesus found it not robbery to say "I am"

And "even before Abraham I was" etc

The Bible further elucidates the relationship between the Father and the Son in several texts!

I have explained this and lots more in previous write-ups.
Gain understanding brother!

achorladey:
Werey peddling brains

and his origins from old

I know you know his origins is from ancient of days or his origin is from modern of days paaap
The same Trinitarian God father words you use to tell Michael is Jesus who is not created and eternal.

Janosky:
You sef no get shame as you no wan allow your brain to function.

Nah you reject Jesus Christ is an angel Bible teaching until JW's showed you your gods of men knew.

Jesus is a prophet,an apostle & angel,a servant created by Jehovah God.

Oga ,Awon WEREY please come and para.

You sef no get shame as you no wan allow your brain to function.

Nah you reject Jesus Christ is an angel Bible teaching until JW's showed you your gods of men knew.

Oga ,Awon WEREY please come and para

I know you know his origins is from ancient of days or his origin is from modern of days paapaa
The same Trinitarian God father words you use to tell Michael is Jesus who is not created and eternal.

Janosky:
John 3:16 , Jesus ONLY Begotten "
Hebrew 11:17-19 , Isaac ONLY Begotten.

Emusan very low IQ dunce

Janosky:
Emusan,What a dunce you are !!
Very low IQ WAILING WAILER seeking attention.


Your Trinitarian New English Translation Bible explained that "Like" was put there @ Exodus 7:1 "for clarity" (screenshot evidence).
Yet you are exposing your IBERIBEISM.
Oga,carry your IBERIBEISM komot from this forum

.

Emusan:
WHICH supported my point that your NWT added what is not in the original Hebrew into the word of God.

So, was MOSES GOD or WAS MADE TO BE LIKE GOD?

Your empty skull never addressed my point but keep dancing around like headless chicken.

Sand2022:
Firstborn doesn't mean first creature, try reading verse 16. It helps show why he is called the firstborn. It gives the reason when it says "because by him are all things made".

Secondly, seeing Jesus as a creature goes against John 1:3 which unambiguously says that "apart from him not EVEN ONE thing was made". That is totally unambiguous.

Jesus being used by God to create things doesn't affect his divinity. That is if you understand the subject.

From what you quoted on Heb 1:3, you see clearly that Jesus is the exact representation of His very BEING. the point of Trinity is exactly that, Jesus is of the same essence as God the Father. Sustaining the all things by the word of His power can only be work done by the Almighty for that would mean sustaining even all creatures, angels, humans, universe etc. A creature cannot do this.

I don't understand how this fit.

That scripture didn't say the power was given. He is already the exact representation of God's being. So He possess that power essentially.

Gabrielshow24:
A lot of people miss the entire point.

And as such cannot grasp the concept of Jesus' equality to God.

Like I said earlier Jesus predates time.
Now saying that he attains the fullness of God will not be totally accurate because the term " attain" insinuates the presence of time.

Now if he predates time and from our little scientific study of black holes, we perceive anything at the event horizon as being stationary.

Hence Jesus had already been in the fullness of the Father

Now as regards Jesus being God.
Logic tells you that some certain positions come with power.
Have you not heard of those that have become presidents/Governors for a day?

In that very day, whatsoever they do in that office it's as if the Governor hath done it.

Now Jesus said all power in Heaven and on Earth have been given unto me.
Hence by Power he has the equivalent of God!
And other verses confirm likewise that his reign will be forever adding the "eternal characteristics of God to the equation"

From scriptures we see that Jesus has the seven spirits of God all pointing to the fact that he has/had attain(ed) the fullness of God!

But wisdom demands that you give honor to whom honor is due.

Mind you when you finish your tertiary institution you get a certificate to show that you have completed your study!
It doesn't matter how many finished but as soon as they are done they are called graduates!

Emusan:
It's so funny how you read FIRSTBORN in Col 1:15 but in your statement it was changed to FIRST CREATION

Do you thing Paul who wrote Col 1:15 didn't know that there's a word for FIRST CREATION before he used FIRSTBORN?

If you read down to verse 18 then you will know why FIRSTBORN IS ACCURATELY used rather than FIRST CREATED.

The term firstborn is about PREEMINENCE NOT about creation.



So, JESUS IS A CREATOR.

Or didn't the verse you quoted here said Jesus was involved in CREATION?




Not entirely true.

Jesus was called God many times.



If I was given a power to become PRESIDENT, am I PRESIDENT or not?



The sun has limited power, even you have your own power.

But the point from the OP is OMNIPOTENT attributes as seen in that Heb 1:2 being used for Jesus. NO CREATURE CAN SUSTAINED THE WHOLE UNIVERSE.

One of the attributes that makes God to be God is UNLIMITED POWER - OMNIPOTENT.

gohf:
Miss which point, you skip what God and Jesus says to write down your own logic and you fail to realise your own logic fails you. If God is above heaven and earth and everything or all power in heaven and earth is given to Jesus how does he equate to the one who is above all?

Giving honor to the governor is based on understanding he is the governor but you do then call him the president and give him presidential honor?

Gabrielshow24:
Even your logic fails.
The presidency is a title anyone that holds it, holds its power.

It doesn't matter whether Jesus is the president or balablu all that matters is that whosoever that holds it, wields it power.

But God is not a composite God hence it is not because of his power that he is God neither is it by other attributes Is he God, he is just God.

The major flaw in human reasoning is that this attributes are what we believe makes up divine or Godship hence whosever that possesses such holds the same equivalent as God.

It's in that wisdom where God can hand over everything to Jesus because in the first place all things are separate from him(loosely- he that reads should use understanding 👀).

Hence your logic just corroborates my statement and your assertion proves Jesus even more as God's equal.

Hence by all the attributes that God possesses he too possesses them all.

The only difference is that the Father is the originator and the source of everything; that's why Honor is given unto whom Honor is due.


How hard is this to understand 🤷🏾‍♂️?

gohf:
ah you obviously lack understanding of what I wrote but it is understandable because your stubbornness is like iniquity and idolatry

Gabrielshow24:
Is that your next course of action?
result to insults.

Am not surprised, you brought the logic of Governor and president after your conclusion was squashed you result to abuse.

👀By their fruits we shall know them.

No hostilities bro, if your logic is strong and backed with unequivocal biblical proofs then I will concede but if not go and read.

gohf:
"by him all things were created" meaning someone used him to create other things and that's understandable seeing that Jesus is the word of God and God created the world through his word. Abi?


Exodus 20 God spoke, He YHVH is God and there is none like Him nor should we have any besides Him.
Was He lying?

John 1:3 like I said, it still didn't call him the creator but the means by which the creator made what was made. For example I can't send you this message without a phone, network, data, technology etc. I used this to reach out, do you understand.



so you do understand and by the way the subject here isn't the divinity of Jesus but if he is God. Of course there is only one God and then only one mediator and son, Jesus Christ.


What exactly did I write or quote, anyway I am certain I wrote and you read that Jesus is at the right hand of God and not that Jesus is God.

Saying that because Jesus did what God can do makes him God is like saying everyone from Moses to Elijah is God. Do not forget to read verse two that it is God who appointed Jesus to that very position and not Jesus himself.


not surprised you do not understand the humility of Jesus



I don't recall the said scripture, what I do know is that representing God doesn't make him God, just as representing Jesus doesn't make me Jesus

gohf:
"
Exodus 20 God spoke, He YHVH is God and there is none like Him nor should we have any besides Him.
Was He lying?

John 1:3 like I said, it still didn't call him the creator but the means by which the creator made what was made. For example I can't send you this message without a phone, network, data, technology etc. I used this to reach out, do you understand

so you do understand and by the way the subject here isn't the divinity of Jesus but if he is God. Of course there is only one God and then only one mediator and son, Jesus Christ

What exactly did I write or quote, anyway I am certain I wrote and you read that Jesus is at the right hand of God and not that Jesus is God.

Saying that because Jesus did what God can do makes him God is like saying everyone from Moses to Elijah is God. Do not forget to read verse two that it is God who appointed Jesus to that very position and not Jesus himself

gohf:
Miss which point, you skip what God and Jesus says to write down your own logic and you fail to realise your own logic fails you. If God is above heaven and earth and everything or all power in heaven and earth is given to Jesus how does he equate to the one who is above all?

Giving honor to the governor is based on understanding he is the governor but you do then call him the president and give him presidential honor?

Sand2022:
We will look at col 1:17

Colossians 1:17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together.

A creature cannot possibly do that. Heb 1:3 tells us more.

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Notice that Jesus is here said to uphold ALL things by the word of His power. This is not just elevating all things, but the point is that Christ sustains ALL things, universe, humans, animals etc, by the word of His power. So after creating all things, He also sustains ALL things.

Also take note of the Power aspect. Such power must be the Highest form of power there is. For the power of a creature cannot possibly sustain all things.

This doesn't sound like what an ordinary creature can do. Does it?

Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan, Dtruthspeaker.

Sand2022:
Don't forget that the given authority is during Jesus incarnation. People do miss the fact that Jesus performed two functions, one as human for the salvation of man, and one in his Divinity. During Jesus Christophany, as we see in the Old Testament, Jesus doesn't come at that time as if he was given authority by God. He came as God intoto. Consider his appearance to Adam and his wife. Did you see Jesus then saying, God told me to tell you? He came as God. Even Jehovah's witnesses acknowledged that Jesus may have been the one appearing then.

I think Jesus Redemptive role is what people mistake and I see why many see it that way, I saw it so before.

If we read the praise given to Jehovah at Isaiah 6:1-3, we will think the person on the throne is God the father right? But John 12:41 tells us that Jesus was the one there. So don't confuse Jesus Redemptive role with his Divinity.

Sand2022:
Jesus is evidently the one who made that statement. But that is another topic.

I agree we are not to have another besides God, however, there are many places where Jesus is worshipped, even in his christophanic appearances in the OT. What Trinity teaching is doing is to bring a summary of whom God is so as not to ignore other scriptures that presents someone else who is worshipped. Let me give one example of what I mean.

Now, the scripture you quoted above shows we shouldn't worship another God, but notice what happened at Josh 5:14-15. Pls read it.

First, do you agree that the Prince of Jehovah's Army is Jesus? If yes, do you agree he was worshipped there? Additionally, check rev 5:8-14. Do you agree Jesus is worshipped there as Jehovah is?

So which way can you have another Deity besides Jehovah? Don't you think that seeing them as having one essence help dispel any contradictions?



Perhaps you didn't mean to make Jesus inanimate, but the analogy seem to suggest that. What I think you mean is that Jesus was just an Agent through which God made things, as such, God is the creator and not Jesus.

I used to see it that way before, but I saw one scripture that challenged that. Let's see Heb 1:10-12

And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”

Here we see Jesus clearly praised as the creator. All creation are the work of Jesus hands.

This verse is taken from Psalm 102:25-27. A place used to praise God for his creations. Here Paul is saying that Jesus was in fact the person being praised there for creation.

Will you not agree that if Jesus was just an agent and nothing more like me and you are as we preach the goodness, he will not need to be praised for what he did as an Agent? Notice the final words;

"and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end."

This verse can only refer to God. God is the only one who is immutable. Also confirm from Heb 13:8. Only God can have that description.

What Trinity is saying is that this unique nature possess by God the Father is shared by both the Son and the Spirit. For me, this reconciles many scriptures attributing the Father's unique characteristics to others.




At times the bible uses the word God in reference to God the Father, in some cases to the Son or the Holy Spirit. These three have God being used for them in a unique way as to the Supreme Deity. So if there were no place what is unique to God is assigned to others, I don't think we will be having this conversation now. But there are, and you have to reconcile it.




Jesus was not appointed to be the exact FACSIMILE of His very BEING. Maybe you might need to see the force of that Greek word. This means that all the unique attribute of God is the exact same Jesus has. This is not the same as creatures have. We still see a similar phrasing at Phil 2. God's FORM. check that in Greek as well.

There is no way to escape Jesus nature as being same with God the Father. This is what the scripture says, not trinitarians.

God the Father occupies a headship role in the divine council. So almost all things are credited to Him, I think this made us think that He is the only one involved. The incarnation brought more revelation to us that in fact Jesus was sharing in all the glory given to God the Father when in heaven. (John 17:5)
Gen 1:26 gave us a hint that only one person is not involved, but it wasnt clearly revealed then.

Being at God's right hand or receiving authority from Him doesn't change his nature. It only shows that God the Father as the head is credited with assigning roles and authority. It also shows that humility rules even within the divine council. It doesn't diminish the nature. Jesus subjects to the father as well. Scholars call this functions or roles within the divine council.

Consider this, people have grieved God before and was forgiven, but if you grieve the Holy Spirit, you won't be forgiven. That doesn't mean the Spirit is greater than God the Father, but it is the role the Spirit occupies that make him have that authority.

gohf:
abuse?! 🙄🤣🤣 You really lack understanding.

Sand2022:
Don't forget that the given authority is during Jesus incarnation. People do miss the fact that Jesus performed two functions, one as human for the salvation of man, and one in his Divinity. During Jesus Christophany, as we see in the Old Testament, Jesus doesn't come at that time as if he was given authority by God. He came as God intoto. Consider his appearance to Adam and his wife. Did you see Jesus then saying, God told me to tell you? He came as God. Even Jehovah's witnesses acknowledged that Jesus may have been the one appearing then.

I think Jesus Redemptive role is what people mistake and I see why many see it that way, I saw it so before.

If we read the praise given to Jehovah at Isaiah 6:1-3, we will think the person on the throne is God the father right? But John 12:41 tells us that Jesus was the one there. So don't confuse Jesus Redemptive role with his Divinity.

John 5:43. (Compare judges 6:11-23 & Psalm 103:20.
"I have come in the name of the Father"

Isaiah 6:6-8. Psalm 103:20 & Judges 6:11-23, are these scriptures making the strong evidence that Jehovah always sends an angel to do his bidding and command?
@ John 5:19, did Jesus make the same point?

Even the Address wey Minister for Education read for UNIAbuja Convocation, the news story is "President Tinubu said.....".
Is the Minister for Education President Tinubu?

Oga, you don't have to like janosky but I must say what is in your own Bible you don't want to hear .