The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? - Christianity Etc

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The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 11:37am On Nov 17, 2024

Sand2022:
Jesus is evidently the one who made that statement. But that is another topic.

I agree we are not to have another besides God, however, there are many places where Jesus is worshipped, even in his christophanic appearances in the OT. What Trinity teaching is doing is to bring a summary of whom God is so as not to ignore other scriptures that presents someone else who is worshipped. Let me give one example of what I mean.

Now, the scripture you quoted above shows we shouldn't worship another God, but notice what happened at Josh 5:14-15. Pls read it.

First, do you agree that the Prince of Jehovah's Army is Jesus? If yes, do you agree he was worshipped there? Additionally, check rev 5:8-14. Do you agree Jesus is worshipped there as Jehovah is?

So which way can you have another Deity besides Jehovah? Don't you think that seeing them as having one essence help dispel any contradictions?

Perhaps you didn't mean to make Jesus inanimate, but the analogy seem to suggest that. What I think you mean is that Jesus was just an Agent through which God made things, as such, God is the creator and not Jesus.

I used to see it that way before, but I saw one scripture that challenged that. Let's see Heb 1:10-12

And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”

Here we see Jesus clearly praised as the creator. All creation are the work of Jesus hands.

This verse is taken from Psalm 102:25-27. A place used to praise God for his creations. Here Paul is saying that Jesus was in fact the person being praised there for creation.

Will you not agree that if Jesus was just an agent and nothing more like me and you are as we preach the goodness, he will not need to be praised for what he did as an Agent? Notice the final words;

"and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end."

This verse can only refer to God. God is the only one who is immutable. Also confirm from Heb 13:8. Only God can have that description.

What Trinity is saying is that this unique nature possess by God the Father is shared by both the Son and the Spirit. For me, this reconciles many scriptures attributing the Father's unique characteristics to others.

At times the bible uses the word God in reference to God the Father, in some cases to the Son or the Holy Spirit. These three have God being used for them in a unique way as to the Supreme Deity. So if there were no place what is unique to God is assigned to others, I don't think we will be having this conversation now. But there are, and you have to reconcile it.

Jesus was not appointed to be the exact FACSIMILE of His very BEING. Maybe you might need to see the force of that Greek word. This means that all the unique attribute of God is the exact same Jesus has. This is not the same as creatures have. We still see a similar phrasing at Phil 2. God's FORM. check that in Greek as well.

There is no way to escape Jesus nature as being same with God the Father. This is what the scripture says, not trinitarians.

God the Father occupies a headship role in the divine council. So almost all things are credited to Him, I think this made us think that He is the only one involved. The incarnation brought more revelation to us that in fact Jesus was sharing in all the glory given to God the Father when in heaven. (John 17:5)
Gen 1:26 gave us a hint that only one person is not involved, but it wasnt clearly revealed then.

Being at God's right hand or receiving authority from Him doesn't change his nature. It only shows that God the Father as the head is credited with assigning roles and authority. It also shows that humility rules even within the divine council. It doesn't diminish the nature. Jesus subjects to the father as well. Scholars call this functions or roles within the divine council.

Consider this, people have grieved God before and was forgiven, but if you grieve the Holy Spirit, you won't be forgiven. That doesn't mean the Spirit is greater than God the Father, but it is the role the Spirit occupies that make him have that authority.

Ps.2.11 - Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
Ps.2.12 - Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

NLT puts verse 12
Ps.2.12 Submit to God's royal son, or he will become angry, and you will be destroyed in the midst of your pursuits--for his anger can flare up in an instant. But what joy for all who find protection in him! (NLT)

Even God himself said, listen to my son, obey him.

God put everything under his feet.

When you bow to your king or knee to your father as a form of honor and submission do you realise that worship in Hebrew meant to knee, to bow.

Every honor we receive we give to God, even Jesus said worship the Father did he not? If He was the Father and said such would He not be an author of confusion? And not the author of faith!

You said Jesus was evidently the one who made the statement in Exodus 20 but then you quoted Joshua 5:14-15 to claim the same speaker is Jesus, is he then confused as to who he is? No it is those who reject the truth that are confused.

You write, "What Trinity teaching is doing is to bring a summary of whom God is..." But this isn't true, what trinity teaching has done is to corrupt what John wrote when he mentioned three witnesses in heaven, not three Gods.

To you question, "If yes, do you agree he was worshipped there?" Yes he was
But to your question,"Do you agree Jesus is worshipped there as Jehovah is?" I say NO, Jehovah was honoured and Jesus was honored

In no where in Revelation 5:8-14 was the Lamb referred to as Jehovah through out the honor given to him, Jehovah was honoured, Jesus was honored. Rev.5.13 - Everyone said: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

So which way can you have another Deity besides Jehovah?
Jesus WAS NEVER WORSHIPPED AS GOD, but as the son of God. Even Princes are honoured because of their Father, but never as their father, it is rebellion for a prince to be called a king while his father is king but it's different because the Father is God and the Son is king. And God is higher than the king.

Don't you think that seeing them as having one essence help dispel any contradictions? Having one essence doesn't mean being the same person, having the essence of holiness makes one of the same family being one doesn't mean being equal it just means being united.

"What I think you mean is that Jesus was just an Agent through which God made things, as such, God is the creator and not Jesus.." Yes that is what I mean and that's why John said the word became flesh and dwelt among us and not that God become flesh and dwelt among us. God is creator and Jesus is the means.

Let's look at and read Hebrews 1:10-12
Isaiah 51:13 Isaiah calls Jehovah the creator maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth.

Hebrews 1:13, But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?

Who is the He, Hebrews is referring to? The He who is LORD the maker of heaven and earth, who doesn't perish but remains the same.

You say it is taken from Psalm 102, let's read it
Ps.102.22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD (Jehovah)
Ps.102.24 I said, "O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations.
Ps.102.25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

In the beginning You? Who? JEHOVAH GOD. When then do you see with your understanding something else?

Yet you wrote, "Paul is saying that Jesus was in fact the person being praised there for creation." But Paul never wrote such a thing.

Even though you agree these verses can only be referred to God you incorrectly assume the new testament authors makes it a reference to Jesus.
You write that only God can have such a description but you confuse yourself by stating that you believe the trinity which suggests that because the son and spirit share the nature of God, they share this unique nature which belongs solely to God. So the Father who is creator is just one of the creators and not that he sent forth his spirit and his word..

For you, this reconciles many scriptures attributing the Father's unique characteristics to others. Are you sure it does?
How do you reconcile that God who doesn't lie said He will send his son but then He comes Himself and pretends to be a man and then prays to Himself and then dies and resurrects telling Mary wait I want to go and show me to myself before I see the rest of you.

No, the issue you can be reconciled with is how God can highly elate a man who was born like you but without sin to a position right beside him if that man original isn't God. Therefore how then can you believe what Jesus said that just as he is we will be, with God or do you then understand it that we will become almighty God worshipping ourselves.

How do you reconcile the scripture with your understanding?

Why don't you tell us where the spirit of God was called God and not the spirit of God, don't assume that "At times the bible uses the word God in reference to God the Father, in some cases to the Son or the Holy Spirit." And continue in your error because you want to believe it.

This is what I said that you quoted, "so you do understand and by the way the subject here isn't the divinity of Jesus but if he is God. Of course there is only one God and then only one mediator and son, Jesus Christ" yet what you wrote doesn't contradict what i have written but shows your stubborn refusal to accept the truth that Jesus is the son of God.

"You say Jesus was not appointed to be the exact FACSIMILE of God"
Facsimile being copy of God, what is the force of greek you speak of, when I am speaking about the truth of God. Philippians 2:6 speaks of God's form, as to refer to God's nature the same nature we as children of God are to have. The nature that came by the Holy Spirit and the power of the Most High God. Does that make Jesus God?

There is no argument from me that Jesus has the same nature with God, for Jesus is Holy

But if the Father is Holy, the son is Holy, the spirit is Holy and the saints are Holy why is it trinity and not quadranity if equality on identity is based on one's nature, shouldn't they all be equal according to your logic which attempts to deny my reprove to you who said based on what Jesus did and i asked you does that make Elijah and Moses God as well?!

"God the Father occupies a headship role in the divine council." What divine council, did the 24 elders help God to create anything or anybody?
And here you say, "So almost all things are credited to Him, I think this made us think that He is the only one involved." Sorry not say you accuse God, like that servant who buried his talent, that He takes credit from what others have done,
So God the Father to you is a thief taking credit from work he didn't do, seeing as he collects glory from others abi? Of course even the devil the representative of evil must have helped shaped our world but all credit must go to God instead abi?

Do you see the result of this deception, you fail to acknowledge who God is so you bring doubt to his credibility in accepting glory and credit due him, "make us think he is the only one involved"

At first he lied and now he is a thief are you sure the God you worship isn't satan and not the Father?

"The incarnation brought more revelation to us that in fact Jesus was sharing in all the glory given to God the Father when in heaven."
Like Job asked whose spirit is speaking to you and through you? If he was sharing the Father's glory does that make him God? Does your son not share in the things you own, do we not have hope to receive glory from God, whose glory would we share when we resurrect?

John.17.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (NIV)

If Jesus was God the Father would he make sure a request to He who is higher than Him. The One who gave him the glory would restore it in greater measure for Jesus received a name above every other name. Would it have been a reward if he was God or if he has such a name to begin with?

Gen 1:26 God said let us, do you know who he was speaking to?
Then you would understand why in Gen 1:27 God created man not in "our image" but in His "own image" do you understand the mystery and revelation as to divide the difference between our image and his image so as to relate it with what happens in Genesis 2?

So why assume that the "our" refers to other gods beside God?

I don't know what you think you know of whatever divine council you speak of or was taught to you, but it is wise to grow first with what God reveals...

How do I begin to tell you that grieving the Holy Spirit is different from blamsphemy and that the Lord holding a person guilty and punishing them doesn't mean they are beyond forgiveness even for blamsphemy and using his name in vain. Or did you think Jesus was the first to reveal that speaking against the Spirit of God will bring divine punishment? But a last it is better to be punished on earth than to perish in hell, so even if the name of the LORD whom the Spirit carries is be holy and not associated with evil nor vain things, men will be punished but not condemned but will be condemned it they repent not.

If you understand you won't wonder if the Spirit is higher or has a different authority different from the Father whereas the Holy Spirit is the authority from the Father just as His word is powerful.

It is because the Holy Spirit is God's authority that claiming deliverance done through that authority is done by demons is blamsphemy. Do you understand?

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 1:14pm On Nov 17, 2024

Gohf your points very sound and straight forward.

Sand2022 & his fellow Trinitarians are confused lots.

They claim that 3 deities are referenced at Genesis 1:26
But Yahweh Himself rebuked that fictitious Trinitarian claim of Genesis 1:26.
@ Genesis 1:27, Isaiah 44:24 & Job 38:1-7.

@ Genesis 1:26 Yahweh was talking to other spirit beings dwelling in the spiritual 5realm (compare Isaiah 6:8 ) & the none of those spirits were equal to Yahweh (compare Hebrew 6:13).

**
Like you pointed out Psalm 102:24-25 referenced Yahweh as the Creator without end ,& @ Hebrew 1:10-12, unlike Jesus Christ @ Matthew 27:46,50, Paul was a staunch Judaist (not a Trinitarian) prior to his conversion.
Therefore, Paul won't contradict himself under divine inspiration.
( Trinitarians added a conjunction ("AND" at Hebrew 1:10, (my personal submission though) .
Evidences abounds that they have ALTERED Hebrew 1:6 to conflict with Psalm 45:6 "God is your throne/your throne is from God"
Just as they ALTERED 1 Timothy 3:16 & 1 John 5:7 & John 10:33.

Besides, Paul's epistle of Romans 11:34-36, Galatians 4:4 ,1 Corinthians 8:6 ,1 Corinthians 11:3 & Colossians 1:15 & Hebrew 1:2 is in direct conflict with the shady Trinitarian attempt to upgrade Jesus to their personal deity.
.

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Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 1:23pm On Nov 17, 2024

Janosky:
Gohf your points very sound and straight forward.

Sand2022 & his fellow Trinitarians are confused lots.

They claim that 3 deities are referenced at Genesis 1:26
But Yahweh Himself rebuked that fictitious Trinitarian claim.
@ Genesis 1:27, Isaiah 44:24 & Job 38:1-7.

@ Genesis 1:26 Yahweh was talking to other spirit beings dwelling in the spiritual 5realm (compare Isaiah 6:8 ) & the none of those spirits were equal to Yahweh (compare Hebrew 6:13).

**
Like you pointed out Psalm 102:24-25 referenced Yahweh as the Creator without end ,& @ Hebrew 1:10-12, unlike Jesus Christ @ Matthew 27:46,50, Paul was a staunch Judaist (not a Trinitarian) prior to his conversion.
Therefore, Paul won't contradict himself under divine inspiration.
( Trinitarians added a conjunction ("AND" at Hebrew 1:10, (my personal submission though) .
Evidences abounds that they have ALTERED Hebrew 1:6 to conflict with Psalm 45:6 "God is your throne/your throne is from God"
Just as they ALTERED 1 Timothy 3:16 & 1 John 5:7 & John 10:33.

Besides, Paul's epistle of Romans 11:34-36, Galatians 4:4 ,1 Corinthians 8:6 ,1 Corinthians 11:3 & Colossians 1:15 & Hebrew 1:2 is in direct conflict with the shady Trinitarian attempt to upgrade Jesus to their personal deity.

Neither was Paul a Trinitarian.

Maybe that's why people can believe and worship someone called Olumba Olumba as their god and Messiah because they believe God will come in the flesh to be worshipped

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Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 1:25pm On Nov 17, 2024

gohf:
Maybe that's why people can believe and worship someone called Olumba Olumba as their god and Messiah because they believe God will come in the flesh to be worshipped

Their personal deity, man made invention

grin

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 12:09am On Nov 18, 2024*

Janosky:
@ Genesis 1:26 Yahweh was talking to other spirit beings dwelling in the spiritual 5realm

lost fraud jw janosky

you people sure love to deny the Word/Jesus Christ,
and because you don't understand scripture, you contradict God's word all over the place

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image,

God did not say; “Let us make man in our image", to other spirit beings dwelling in the spiritual realm
God said; “Let us make man in our image", to the Word, Whom He made all things through:

Joh 1:3 God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

Joh 1:10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Mat_10:33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

1Jn_2:23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 11:52am On Nov 19, 2024

johnw47:
lost fraud jw janosky

you people sure love to deny the Word/Jesus Christ,
and because you don't understand scripture, you contradict God's word all over the place

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image,

God did not say; “Let us make man in our image", to other spirit beings dwelling in the spiritual realm
God said; “Let us make man in our image", to the Word, Whom He made all things through:

Joh 1:3 God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

Joh 1:10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Mat_10:33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

1Jn_2:23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Have you studied Job 38:1-7 & Isaiah 44:24 ?

Was Jehovah God denying Jesus Christ @ Job 38:1-7 , Isaiah 44:24 & Genesis 1:27?

"US" @ Genesis 1:26 is the same "US" @ Isaiah 6:6-8?
"US " are the divine assembly of holy ones rejoicing in applause @ Job 38:4-7.

John W MUMU ,Trinitarian misinterpretation of Genesis 1:26 made you empty dummy.
grin

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by MaxInDHouse(m): 3:33pm On Nov 19, 2024

When he had come into the region of Caes·a·reʹa Phi·lipʹpi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?”  They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did." Matthew 16:13-17

I believe this is clear enough!

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 10:19pm On Nov 19, 2024*

Janosky:
Have you studied Job 38:1-7 & Isaiah 44:24 ?
Was Jehovah God denying Jesus Christ @ Job 38:1-7 , Isaiah 44:24 & Genesis 1:27?
"US" @ Genesis 1:26 is the same "US" @ Isaiah 6:6-8?
"US " are the divine assembly of holy ones rejoicing in applause @ Job 38:4-7.
John W MUMU ,Trinitarian misinterpretation of Genesis 1:26 made you empty dummy.

ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image,

truly most dum and lost fraud jw janosky

Yahovah didn't make man with the holy angels
yahovah made man, and all of creation with the Word/Jesus Christ Who is the image of God:

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

false jw, what a confusion you make of scriptures, which you don't understand,
the angels cheering when the earth is being created is not to do with gen 1:26,
which is God saying to the Word: "let Us make man in Our image"

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

and like your daddy the devil you can never stop lying and falsely accusing, can you, of course:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rev_12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 4:19pm On Nov 20, 2024

johnw47:
Rev_12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

not sure what your argument with him is on, but Rev 12:10 is just another proof of consistency that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ the anointed one of God, anointed and chosen by God Almighty Jehovah the creator and maker of heavens and earth

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by sonmvayina(m): 8:08pm On Nov 20, 2024

God is not a man. This warning was sounded in Numbers 23:19, i wonder why people still argue blindly.
Jesus is not a son of God more than we are.(That's if he existed at all).
Let us make man in our own image .....Gen1:26, why are you guys beating yourself over simple inference. What is man? Man is made up of dust from the earth and breath from God. Is it not simple enough that the US there refers to God and the earth? See Ecclesiastics 12:7. Why the ignorance and stupidity ?

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 9:56pm On Nov 20, 2024*

gohf:
not sure what your argument with him is on, but Rev 12:10 is just another proof of consistency that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ the anointed one of God, anointed and chosen by God Almighty Jehovah the creator and maker of heavens and earth

lost false Jw janosky (blasphemer of the Holy Spirit), often falsely accuses people,
i have stated often that in the beginning there were two; God and the Word of God, not three
so when janonsense the liar falsely accuses me of being trinitarian, i post rev 12:10 for the false accuser

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 9:57pm On Nov 20, 2024

johnw47:
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image,

"US" @ Isaiah 6:6-8 & Genesis 1:26 are angels,not your 3 deities invented at Nicene.
Verse 6, Jehovah sent angels to prophet Isaiah.
Angels, one of the "US", the divine assembly of Psalm 82:1.
@ Job 1:6 & Job 2:1, did Jehovah hold a meeting with your 3 deities?
No !!!!
Jesus Christ (the leader of angels @ 1 Thess 4:16 & Matt 25:31) & other Angels are "US" @ Genesis 1:26.
John W empty dummy.

johnw47:
truly most dum and lost fraud jw janosky

Yahovah didn't make man with the holy angels
yahovah made man, and all of creation with the Word/Jesus Christ Who is the image of God:

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

false jw, what a confusion you make of scriptures, which you don't understand,
the angels cheering when the earth is being created is not to do with gen 1:26,
which is God saying to the Word: "let Us make man in Our image"

Job 38:1,4,7
"Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.

7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Bible Evidence 1:
Did Jehovah say that your 3 deities rejoiced @ Job 38:4-7?
Bible Evidence 2:

Did Jehovah hold a meeting with your 3 deities @ Job 1:6 & 2:1?

From Genesis to Revelation,Not even one record of Jehovah holding meetings with your 3 deities,
John W MUMU Dunce

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 10:14pm On Nov 20, 2024*

Janosky:
"US" @ Isaiah 6:6-8 & Genesis 1:26 are angels,not your 3 deities invented at Nicene.
Verse 6, Jehovah sent angels to prophet Isaiah.
Angels, one of the "US", the divine assembly of Psalm 82:1.
@ Job 1:6 & Job 2:1, did Jehovah hold a meeting with your 3 deities?
No !!!!
Jesus Christ (the leader of angels @ 1 Thess 4:16 & Matt 25:31) & other Angels are "US" @ Genesis 1:26.
John W empty dummy.
Job 38:1,4,7
"Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Bible Evidence 1:
Did Jehovah say that your 3 deities rejoiced @ Job 38:4-7?
Bible Evidence 2:
Did Jehovah hold a meeting with your 3 deities @ Job 1:6 & 2:1?
From Genesis to Revelation,Not even one record of Jehovah holding meetings with your 3 deities,
John W MUMU Dunce

ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

truly as dum as they come lost fraud jw janosky, God said "Let Us make man in our image" to the Word
and not to angels, angels created nothing with God

and of course you love to blaspheme the Christians Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit of the Bible, repeatedly calling Them
3 deities which is 3 gods,
you couldn't blaspheme them often enough in your post (5 times), could you oh lost one, you will surely have your reward:

Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

Mat 12:31 Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

the angels cheering at the creation of the earth is nothing to do with God saying "Let us make man in Our image"

your confusion of the scriptures is amazingly satanic:
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 10:38pm On Nov 20, 2024

johnw47:
truly as dum as they come lost fraud jw janosky, God said "Let Us make man in our image" to the Word
and not to angels, angels created nothing with God

the angels cheering at the creation of the earth is nothing to do with God saying "Let us make man in Our image"

The angels were present @ Genesis 1:26 because they rejoiced at the creation @ Job 38:4-7.
Jesus the Personified Wisdom (@Prov 8:22-30) & morning Star ((@Revelation 22:16 ) is fond of man.
Do you rejoice at what you are fond of?
Yes nau.

Angels exist in the image of God.
John W MUMU Dunce forming woke.
grin

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 11:24pm On Nov 20, 2024

Janosky:
The angels were present @ Genesis 1:26 because they rejoiced at the creation @ Job 38:4-7.

lost fraud jw janosky

whether angels witnessed the creation of man or not, they did not make man with God, the Word did
"Let Us make man in Our image"

Janosky: Jesus the Personified Wisdom (@Prov 8:22-30) & morning Star ((@Revelation 22:16 ) is fond of man.
Do you rejoice at what you are fond of?
Yes nau.

dum false jw, the Word made the angels and everything else that was made:

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Janosky: Angels exist in the image of God.

so does man, but man never made man either oh dum dum

Janosky: John W MUMU Dunce forming woke.

ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

talk about a mumu dunce, you are the king of all, aren't you oh false accuser like your daddy the devil:

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 11:44pm On Nov 20, 2024*

Janosky:
They claim that 3 deities are referenced at Genesis 1:26

lost fraud jw janosky

i must have missed that, post the quote or link

no, you just lying, as always:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 1:19am On Nov 21, 2024

johnw47:
~~lost fraud jw janosky~~

whether angels witnessed the creation of man or not, they did not make man with God, the Word did
"Let Us make man in Our image"

dum false jw, the Word made the angels and everything else that was made:

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

so does man, but man never made man either oh dum dum

talk about a mumu dunce, you are the king of all, aren't you oh false accuser like your daddy the devil:

Your Trinitarian godfathers believed that Jesus Christ is an ANGEL OF THE LORD JEHOVAH , Genesis 16:7.
Screenshot evidence in agreement with Psalm 103:20 & John 14:24, Jesus Christ an angel DOING & SPEAKING the words and command of Jehovah God his Father like other angels sent on a mission.)
Jesus Christ is an angel & morning Star alongside other sons of God who rejoiced at creation.

Jehovah God @ Job 38:7. Job 2:1. Job 1:6 OMITTED your 3 deities invented at Nicene.

John W MUMU Dunce no want him brain to function.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 1:49am On Nov 21, 2024

Janosky:
Your Trinitarian godfathers

lost fraud jw janosky

i don't have trinitarian godfathers, but of course you can never stop lying like your father the devil:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Janosky: believed that Jesus Christ is an ANGEL OF THE LORD JEHOVAH , Genesis 16:7.
Screenshot evidence in agreement with Psalm 103:20 & John 14:24, Jesus Christ an angel DOING & SPEAKING the words and command of Jehovah God his Father like other angels sent on a mission.)
Jesus Christ is an angel & morning Star alongside other sons of God who rejoiced at creation.

lost false jw

Jesus is a messenger for His Father

Jesus/the Word, made all that is made which includes the angels,
God and the Word made man

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

gen 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"

Janosky: Jehovah God @ Job 38:7. Job 2:1. Job 1:6 OMITTED your 3 deities invented at Nicene.
John W MUMU Dunce no want him brain to function.

ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

lost false jw, no need blaspheming the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit all over the place, you are lost from the very first time:

Mat 12:31 Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Janosky: your 3 deities

i don't have 3 deities/3 gods, and neither is the Christians Father and Son and Holy Spirit of the Bible
3 deities/3 gods, but you clearly love repeating your lies and blasphemies:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 8:16pm On Nov 21, 2024*

johnw47:
lost fraud jw janosky

i don't have trinitarian godfathers, but of course you can never stop lying like your father the devil:

Jesus is a messenger for His Father

Jesus/the Word, made all that is made which includes the angels,
God and the Word made man

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

gen 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"

lost false jw, no need blaspheming the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit all over the place, you are lost from the very first time:

i don't have 3 deities/3 gods, and neither is the Christians Father and Son and Holy Spirit of the Bible
3 deities/3 gods, but you clearly love repeating your lies and blasphemies:

* First screenshot evidence of Greek Aggelous meaning angel/messenger.
Angel is a messenger, Jesus is an angel.
LYING miscreant John W dunce.

*2nd screenshot evidence
Your early church Fathers were your Trinitarian mentors and godfathers.
Your Trinitarian godfathers believed that Jesus Christ is archangel Michael.

https://taylormarshall.com › 2015/01
Is the Angel of the Lord the Pre-Incarnate Christ?
"The Greek Church Fathers (for example, Saint Athanasius) are convinced that “the Angel of the Lord” is the pre-incarnate Christ."

The Bart Ehrman Blog
https://ehrmanblog.org › pauls-vie...
"Jesus as an Angel
But where does it say that Jesus was an angel before he was born on Earth? ... And yes, church Fathers did indeed talk about Christ as the Angel of the Lord."

topicsinbiblicalstudies.com
https://www.topicsinbiblicalstudies.com › ...
Jesus identified Himself as the angel of the Lord - Topics in Biblical Studies
31 Jul 2024 — "Jesus identified Himself as the angel of the Lord when He said that the Father had given Him the Father's name, when He said that the Father was in Him."

John W LYING miscreant ,3 screenshot evidences against you.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 8:22pm On Nov 21, 2024

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 12:13am On Nov 22, 2024*

Janosky:
* First screenshot evidence of Greek Aggelous meaning angel/messenger.
Angel is a messenger, Jesus is an angel.
LYING miscreant John W dunce.

lost fraud jw janosky

just more of your much repeated confusion and delusion and false accusing like the devil:

Rev_12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

really Jesus is the messenger of God, not a created angelic being
Jesus/the Word, created the angels and all that is created:

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

angel
aggelos
ang'-el-os
a messenger; a angel; a pastor

God is not a anelic being and so neither is His only begotten Son, He is God's messenger

Janosky: *2nd screenshot evidence
Your early church Fathers were your Trinitarian mentors and godfathers.
Your Trinitarian godfathers believed that Jesus Christ is archangel Michael.

like i have said many times, i don't have trinitarian mentors and godfathers
but like i also keep saying; you cannot stop lying like your daddy the devil:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Janosky: taylormarshall..com ›
Is the Angel of the Lord the Pre-Incarnate Christ?
"The Greek Church Fathers (for example, Saint Athanasius) are convinced that “the Angel of the Lord” is the pre-incarnate Christ."
The Bart Ehrman Blog
ehrmanblog..org › pauls-vie...
"Jesus as an Angel
But where does it say that Jesus was an angel before he was born on Earth? ... And yes, church Fathers did indeed talk about Christ as the Angel of the Lord."
topicsinbiblicalstudies.com
topicsinbiblicalstudies..com › ...
Jesus identified Himself as the angel of the Lord - Topics in Biblical Studies
31 Jul 2024 — "Jesus identified Himself as the angel of the Lord when He said that the Father had given Him the Father's name, when He said that the Father was in Him."

John W LYING miscreant ,3 screenshot evidences against you.

ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

lost fraud jw janosky, you false jw's are conditioned to believe the words of men
try proving your points with the word of God

quote the lies i have posted,
you such a false accuser like the devil, of course:

Rev_12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 12:45pm On Feb 08, 2025

Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself. Then we will not turn away from you; revive us, and we will call on your name. Restore us, Lord God Almighty; make your face shine on us, that we may be saved. Psalm 80: 17 - 19

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Janosky: 11:21pm On Feb 08, 2025

johnw47:
really Jesus is the messenger of God, not a created angelic being
Jesus/the Word, created the angels and all that is created:

angel
aggelos
ang'-el-os
a messenger; a angel; a pastor

God is not a anelic being and so neither is His only begotten Son, He is God's messenger

'Uncreated angel" doesn't exist anywhere.
John W, Please allow your brain to function just once.
grin

johnw47:
like i have said many times, i don't have trinitarian mentors and godfathers

Did the Trinity doctrine begin with John W?
John 8:44, the devil is the father of the lie because LYING begins with him.

Likewise, Trinity doctrine began at Nicene 326 AD.
Those guys are your mentors.
Your denial makes you a proven liar.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 12:06am On Feb 09, 2025*

Janosky:
'Uncreated angel" doesn't exist anywhere.
John W, Please allow your brain to function just once.

ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

fraud jw janosky

talk about a non functioning brain

the Word is not a created angelic being, He is a messanger of God His Father
of course you cannot see the diffrence:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

the Word made everything that was made, Father God made nothing by Himself, john 1:3,
showing that the Word was not made

Janosky: Did the Trinity doctrine begin with John W?
John 8:44, the devil is the father of the lie because LYING begins with him.
Likewise, Trinity doctrine began at Nicene 326 AD.
Those guys are your mentors.
Your denial makes you a proven liar.

so very confused false jw

once again, show that i am trinitarian, show that trinitarians are my mentors:

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

1Co_6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

lost false jw, you people cannot ever stop falsely accusing and lying like your father the devil, can you:

Rev_12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

janonsnse, don't go fearfully running away again, will you:

rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

g u r dum, aren't u

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by johnw47: 4:43am On Feb 10, 2025

Exo_20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Pro 14:5 A trustworthy witness will not lie, But a false witness utters lies.
Pro_19:5 A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will not escape.
Pro_19:9 A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.
Pro_21:28 A false witness will perish,
Mar_10:19 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"

^^ Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

false jw's:
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 12:16pm On Feb 10, 2025

johnw47:
Exo_20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Pro 14:5 A trustworthy witness will not lie, But a false witness utters lies.
Pro_19:5 A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will not escape.
Pro_19:9 A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.
Pro_21:28 A false witness will perish,
Mar_10:19 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"

^^ Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

false jw's:
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Janosky after reading some of you boths exchanges why are you accusing Johnw of believing in 3 gods?

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 12:26pm On Feb 10, 2025

Janosky:

'Uncreated angel" doesn't exist anywhere.
John W, Please allow your brain to function just once.

Did the Trinity doctrine begin with John W?
John 8:44, the devil is the father of the lie because LYING begins with him.

Likewise, Trinity doctrine began at Nicene 326 AD.
Those guys are your mentors.
Your denial makes you a proven liar.

is the issue if Jesus is created or not? And is he not denying to believe in trinity?

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 12:37pm On Feb 10, 2025

If we believe God created all things, then it includes his word and the angels. It even includes the throne he seats on, or did someone create it for him? Ofcourse not.

He created both the message and the messengers, the message came from him just as the messengers come from him.

God is God, He doesn't exist because of His word, His word exists because of Him, He is the source of all.

I like that the Hebrew word for create means cut out, if Jesus was cut out from God it means he was created.

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Steep(m): 12:53pm On Feb 10, 2025

gohf:
If we believe God created all things, then it includes his word and the angels. It even includes the throne he seats on, or did someone create it for him? Ofcourse not.

He created both the message and the messengers, the message came from him just as the messengers come from him.

God is God, He doesn't exist because of His word, His word exists because of Him, He is the source of all.

I like that the Hebrew word for create means cut out, if Jesus was cut out from God it means he was created.

delulu. God created everything through Jesus. That removes Jesus from things created meaning he is uncreated.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Like

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 1:01pm On Feb 10, 2025

Steep:
delulu. God created everything through Jesus. That removes Jesus from things created meaning he is uncreated.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

because Jesus is the manifestation of God's word. How do you use a word, you speak the word and that is described in Genesis 1. God said and the prophets wrote God sent forth His word

Who owns the word, God
From whom the word comes God.

This words you are reading did they come from themselves? No, I wrote them, I created them

You created, and you can tell us, what does lulu even mean?

Or are you lulu, is lulu you, your name or who you are?

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by Steep(m): 10:05pm On Feb 10, 2025

gohf:
because Jesus is the manifestation of God's word. How do you use a word, you speak the word and that is described in Genesis 1. God said and the prophets wrote God sent forth His word

Who owns the word, God
From whom the word comes God.

This words you are reading did they come from themselves? No, I wrote them, I created them

You created, and you can tell us, what does lulu even mean?

Or are you lulu, is lulu you, your name or who you are?

You are only show casing your ignorance.

How can "the word" be created when all created things came through him?
Delulu means delusional, you are delusional.

1 Like

Re: The Identity Of Christ, God Himself Or The Son Of God? by gohf(op): 11:05am On Feb 11, 2025

Steep:
You are only show casing your ignorance.

How can "the word" be created when all created things came through him?
Delulu means delusional, you are delusional.

Ps.8.5-6 Yet You have made him but a little lower than God, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet:

The word came from you so the word is you, according to your words, you are delulu 🤣

1 2 Reply

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