₦airaland Forum

Chapter 5. We Shall Know Each Other

I remarked, "As I was brought here, I saw among the saints some who appeared to shine with greater brightness than the others. Are there among the blessed different degrees of glory?"

"The happiness and glory which all the glorified here enjoy is the result of their communion with and love to the ever blessed God. The more we see Him—the more we love Him; and love changes our souls into His nature, and from this results our glory. This makes a difference in the degrees of glory. Nor is there any murmuring in one to see another’s glory much greater than his own. The ever blessed God is an unbounded ocean of light and life, and joy and happiness, still filling every vessel—until it can hold no more. And though the vessels are of several sizes, while each is filled there are none who can complain. My answer therefore to your question, is that those who have the most enlarged capacity do love God most—are thereby changed most into His likeness. This is the highest glory which heaven can give. Nor let this seem strange to you, for even among God’s flaming angels there are diversities of order and different degrees of glory.

While I was talking with the prophet a shining form drew near. It was one of the redeemed. He told me he had left his body below resting in hope until the resurrection; and that though he was still a substance yet it was an immaterial one, not to be touched by mortal.

He said, "We here behold a sight worth dying for—the blessed Lamb of God, the glorious Savior! Here we see Him in His kingly office, on account of which He is called King of kings and Lord of lords. But all the glorious greatness of our blessed Redeemer does not make His kindness seem distant—but only more precious. It makes heaven more than heaven to me—to find Him reigning here, Who suffered so much for me in the world below! And our Redeemer’s great happiness increases our own, as He invites each faithful servant to enter into his Master’s joy.

"Here we see not only our elder Brother, Christ—but also our friends and relatives. Although Elijah lived in the world below long before your time, you no sooner saw him—than you knew him. And so you will also know Adam when you see him. Here we communicate the purest pleasure to each other—a sincere ardent love uniting our society. And oh, how happy is that state of love! Where there is love like this—all are filled with delight. How can it be otherwise, since in this blessed society there is a continual receiving and returning of love and joy.

"But besides, all the happiness which comes to us by our communion with God and with each other—it is to me a mighty happiness to understand all the deep mysteries of religion which the wisest in the world below could not fully understand. Here we discern a perfect harmony between those scripture texts that in the world below seemed to oppose each other. And here we are especially filled with wonder and gratitude at discovering the divine goodness towards each one of us in particular. In respect to my former life on earth, I have seen the mercifulness of those very afflictions which I once (when upon earth) thought to show His anger. I am now fully convinced that no affliction that I ever met with in the world below (and I have met with many) either came sooner, or fell heavier, or continued longer—than what was needful for my good. My hopes were not disappointed—but God used all things to prepare me for a better eternal reward than what I had hoped for.

"But I remember that you are still in the body, and may be tired with hearing what I could forever tell, so great is the happiness that I possess. I shall only add one other thing about our happiness: though a vast multitude of blessed souls partakes of this joy and glory, this does not make less of what each receives. For this ocean of happiness is so bottomless, that the innumerable company of all the saints and angels can never exhaust it. Nor is this strange, for in the world below everyone equally enjoys the benefit of sunlight. There is no one who can complain that they enjoy it less, because another enjoys it also. All enjoy the benefit of sunlight as fully—as if no one else enjoyed it but themselves. If a multitude of people drink of the same river—none of them is able to exhaust it, even though each of them has the liberty of drinking as much as he can. So whoever enjoys God—enjoys Him as much as he can contain, according to his capacity.

"Thus I have given you a brief account of our heavenly Canaan. It is not the thousandth part of that which might be said—yet it is enough to let you see it is a land flowing with milk and honey. In this happy place, worldly relations cease. Nor are there male and female here—but all are like the angels. For souls cannot be distinguished into sexes, and therefore all relations are here swallowed up in God."

He had no sooner spoken than he took me by the hand. Then, far swifter than an arrow from a bow, we passed by several shining forms clothed in robes of immortality, who looked at me as I passed them. He said, to me, "Farewell, my friend, your guardian angel will shortly come and bring you back to the world below."

I drew near the shining form of a redeemed one who stood before me, who appeared extremely glorious, encircled with rays of dazzling luster. I hardly could behold her—for the exceeding brightness of her face.

She said to me, "For what I am—to Him who is on the throne, be all the praise and glory. The robe of glory which you see me wear—is only the reflection of His own bright beams!"

"You appear to be one who feels the mighty joys that you speak of."

She replied, "You should not think this strange. The mighty wonders of divine love and grace will be the subject of our song forever! Here all human relations cease and are swallowed up in God Who is alone the great Father of all this heavenly family. As for the members of the family that I left behind in the world below, I have committed them to God. I would be glad to see them all heirs of this blessed inheritance. But if they should join with the grand enemy of souls and refuse the grace offered them, and thereby perish in their unbelief—God will be glorified in His justice, and in His glory I shall still rejoice!"

Then I desired to know whether the saints in heaven understood and were concerned for what was happening in the world below.

To this she replied, "As to the affairs of particular people, we are not concerned with them and are ignorant of them. Only God is present in all places and sees all things. But the struggles and the victories of the church below, is told to us by the angels, who are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation. From what they report we are excited to renew our praises to Him who sits upon the throne."

Chapter 6. Conducted to HELL

Then the bright messenger who had brought me to heaven returned. "I have," said the angel, "a commission to return you to the earth from where I took you, after first visiting the regions of the prince of darkness. There you will see the reward of sin, and what Justice has prepared as the judgment of those who would exalt themselves above the throne of the Most High God."

To leave heaven for earth, was extremely disappointing. But to leave heaven for hell, turned my very heart within me! However, when I knew that it was God's good pleasure, I was a little comforted. So I said to my bright conductor, "That which God has ordered I shall always be willing to obey. Even in hell I will not be afraid—if I may have His presence with me there."

To this my shining guardian replied, "Wherever the blessed God grants His presence—there is heaven, and while we are in hell He will be with us."

Then bowing low before the Almighty’s throne, swifter than thought, my guardian angel carried me on a speedy journey down through the heavens. When I saw the stars I told my conductor that I had heard on earth that each one of these stars had their own worlds. "But I would ask you to tell me the truth of this matter."

To this my shining guardian answered, "To Him Who is Almighty, there is nothing impossible. But from knowing that it is in His power to do this, to argue that it is His will—is no good logic in the school of heaven. We know what He pleases to reveal to us; and what He has not revealed, are secrets locked up in His own eternal counsel. For anyone to inquire into these secrets would be but bold and presumptuous curiosity. There is no doubt that He can make as many worlds as He wants—but He has not yet revealed it to us, and it is not our duty to inquire."

By this time we had come down to the lowest regions of the air. There I saw multitudes of horrible forms and dismal dark appearances which fled from the shining presence of my bright conductor.

I said, "These surely are some of the vanguard of hell—so black and so frightening are their forms!"

My conductor replied, "Now we are upon the borders of hell, and these are some of the apostate spirits that wander around like roaring lions."

Soon we were surrounded with a darkness much more black than night, and with a stench far more suffocating than that of burning sulfur. My ears were likewise filled with the horrible yelling of the damned spirits, which in comparison with—would make the most discordant notes on earth, sound like beautiful music.

"Now," said my guardian angel, "you are on the edge of hell—but do not fear the power of the destroyer. My commission from the Imperial Throne secures you from all danger. Here you may hear from devils and damned souls—the cursed causes of their endless ruin. What you ask them about, they will answer. The devils cannot hurt you, though they would want to, for they are bound by Him who has commissioned me."

We then came within hell’s territories, placed in the caverns of the infernal deep in the center of the earth. There, in a sulfurous lake of liquid fire, sat Lucifer upon a burning throne. His horrid eyes sparkled with hellish fury, as full of rage as his strong anger could make him. I saw that the demons that had fled from us as we approached from heaven had given notice of our coming. This had put all hell in an uproar, and made Lucifer release horrid blasphemies against the blessed God with an air of arrogance and pride.

"What would the Thunderer have?" said he. "He has my heaven already, whose radiant scepter this bold hand should bear. Instead of those never fading fields of light, He confines me here in this dark house of death, sorrow, and woe! What, would He take hell away from me too, that He insults me here? Ah! Could I but obtain another day to try it, I would make heaven shake and His bright throne to totter. Nor would I fear the utmost of His power, though He had fiercer flames than these to throw me in!

Although I lost the battle that day, the fault was not mine! No winged spirit in heaven strove better for the victory than I did. But, ah!" he continued with a changed voice, "that day is lost, and I am forever doomed to these dark territories! But it is still at least some comfort to me—that mankind’s sorrow waits upon me. And since I cannot fight against the Thunderer, I will make the utmost of my anger to fall on them."

I was amazed to hear his ungodly speech, and felt compelled to say to my conductor, "How justly are his blasphemies rewarded!"

"What you have heard from this apostate spirit, is both his sin and punishment; for every blasphemy he belches against heaven, makes hell the hotter to him!"

We then passed on to see more sorrowful scenes. I saw two wretched souls being tormented by a demon. He was continually plunging them in liquid fire and burning brimstone, while at the same time they accused and cursed each other! One of them said to his tormented fellow sufferer, "O cursed be your face, that ever I set eyes upon you! My misery is due to you! I may thank you for this, for it was your persuasions that brought me here. You enticed me, it was you who ensnared me into this. It was your covetousness, cheating, and oppression of the poor—that brought me here. If you had been as good an example as you had been a bad one, I might now be in heaven. O what a fool I was! When I followed your steps—you ruined me forever. O that I never had seen your face—or that you had never been born!"

The other wretch replied, "And may I not as well blame you? Don't you remember how at such a time and place you enticed me to go along with you? I was minding my own business when you called me away—so you are as guilty as I. Though I was covetous—but you were proud. Though you learned how to cheat from me—yet you taught me to lust, to lie, to get drunk and to scoff at godliness. So although I tempted you in some things, you tempted me as much in others. Therefore if you blame me, I can blame you as much. I wish you never had come here—the very sight of you wounds my soul, by bringing sin afresh into my mind. It was with you, with you—that I sinned! O grief to my soul! Since I could not avoid your companionship on earth—O that I could be without it here!"

From this sad conversation, I learned that those who are companions in sin upon earth, shall also be punished together in hell. I believe that this was the true reason why the rich man seemed so charitable to his brethren (Luke16:27-28). The reason he did not want them to join him in hell—was because they would have increased his torments!

PCHC:
Chapter 5. We Shall Know Each Other

I remarked, "As I was brought here, I saw among the saints some who appeared to shine with greater brightness than the others. Are there among the blessed different degrees of glory?"

"The happiness and glory which all the glorified here enjoy is the result of their communion with and love to the ever blessed God. The more we see Him—the more we love Him; and love changes our souls into His nature, and from this results our glory. This makes a difference in the degrees of glory. Nor is there any murmuring in one to see another’s glory much greater than his own. The ever blessed God is an unbounded ocean of light and life, and joy and happiness, still filling every vessel—until it can hold no more. And though the vessels are of several sizes, while each is filled there are none who can complain. My answer therefore to your question, is that those who have the most enlarged capacity do love God most—are thereby changed most into His likeness. This is the highest glory which heaven can give. Nor let this seem strange to you, for even among God’s flaming angels there are diversities of order and different degrees of glory.

While I was talking with the prophet a shining form drew near. It was one of the redeemed. He told me he had left his body below resting in hope until the resurrection; and that though he was still a substance yet it was an immaterial one, not to be touched by mortal.

He said, "We here behold a sight worth dying for—the blessed Lamb of God, the glorious Savior! Here we see Him in His kingly office, on account of which He is called King of kings and Lord of lords. But all the glorious greatness of our blessed Redeemer does not make His kindness seem distant—but only more precious. It makes heaven more than heaven to me—to find Him reigning here, Who suffered so much for me in the world below! And our Redeemer’s great happiness increases our own, as He invites each faithful servant to enter into his Master’s joy.

"Here we see not only our elder Brother, Christ—but also our friends and relatives. Although Elijah lived in the world below long before your time, you no sooner saw him—than you knew him. And so you will also know Adam when you see him. Here we communicate the purest pleasure to each other—a sincere ardent love uniting our society. And oh, how happy is that state of love! Where there is love like this—all are filled with delight. How can it be otherwise, since in this blessed society there is a continual receiving and returning of love and joy.

"But besides, all the happiness which comes to us by our communion with God and with each other—it is to me a mighty happiness to understand all the deep mysteries of religion which the wisest in the world below could not fully understand. Here we discern a perfect harmony between those scripture texts that in the world below seemed to oppose each other. And here we are especially filled with wonder and gratitude at discovering the divine goodness towards each one of us in particular. In respect to my former life on earth, I have seen the mercifulness of those very afflictions which I once (when upon earth) thought to show His anger. I am now fully convinced that no affliction that I ever met with in the world below (and I have met with many) either came sooner, or fell heavier, or continued longer—than what was needful for my good. My hopes were not disappointed—but God used all things to prepare me for a better eternal reward than what I had hoped for.

"But I remember that you are still in the body, and may be tired with hearing what I could forever tell, so great is the happiness that I possess. I shall only add one other thing about our happiness: though a vast multitude of blessed souls partakes of this joy and glory, this does not make less of what each receives. For this ocean of happiness is so bottomless, that the innumerable company of all the saints and angels can never exhaust it. Nor is this strange, for in the world below everyone equally enjoys the benefit of sunlight. There is no one who can complain that they enjoy it less, because another enjoys it also. All enjoy the benefit of sunlight as fully—as if no one else enjoyed it but themselves. If a multitude of people drink of the same river—none of them is able to exhaust it, even though each of them has the liberty of drinking as much as he can. So whoever enjoys God—enjoys Him as much as he can contain, according to his capacity.

"Thus I have given you a brief account of our heavenly Canaan. It is not the thousandth part of that which might be said—yet it is enough to let you see it is a land flowing with milk and honey. In this happy place, worldly relations cease. Nor are there male and female here—but all are like the angels. For souls cannot be distinguished into sexes, and therefore all relations are here swallowed up in God."

He had no sooner spoken than he took me by the hand. Then, far swifter than an arrow from a bow, we passed by several shining forms clothed in robes of immortality, who looked at me as I passed them. He said, to me, "Farewell, my friend, your guardian angel will shortly come and bring you back to the world below."

I drew near the shining form of a redeemed one who stood before me, who appeared extremely glorious, encircled with rays of dazzling luster. I hardly could behold her—for the exceeding brightness of her face.

She said to me, "For what I am—to Him who is on the throne, be all the praise and glory. The robe of glory which you see me wear—is only the reflection of His own bright beams!"

"You appear to be one who feels the mighty joys that you speak of."

She replied, "You should not think this strange. The mighty wonders of divine love and grace will be the subject of our song forever! Here all human relations cease and are swallowed up in God Who is alone the great Father of all this heavenly family. As for the members of the family that I left behind in the world below, I have committed them to God. I would be glad to see them all heirs of this blessed inheritance. But if they should join with the grand enemy of souls and refuse the grace offered them, and thereby perish in their unbelief—God will be glorified in His justice, and in His glory I shall still rejoice!"

Then I desired to know whether the saints in heaven understood and were concerned for what was happening in the world below.

To this she replied, "As to the affairs of particular people, we are not concerned with them and are ignorant of them. Only God is present in all places and sees all things. But the struggles and the victories of the church below, is told to us by the angels, who are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation. From what they report we are excited to renew our praises to Him who sits upon the throne."

Chapter 6. Conducted to HELL

Then the bright messenger who had brought me to heaven returned. "I have," said the angel, "a commission to return you to the earth from where I took you, after first visiting the regions of the prince of darkness. There you will see the reward of sin, and what Justice has prepared as the judgment of those who would exalt themselves above the throne of the Most High God."

To leave heaven for earth, was extremely disappointing. But to leave heaven for hell, turned my very heart within me! However, when I knew that it was God's good pleasure, I was a little comforted. So I said to my bright conductor, "That which God has ordered I shall always be willing to obey. Even in hell I will not be afraid—if I may have His presence with me there."

To this my shining guardian replied, "Wherever the blessed God grants His presence—there is heaven, and while we are in hell He will be with us."

Then bowing low before the Almighty’s throne, swifter than thought, my guardian angel carried me on a speedy journey down through the heavens. When I saw the stars I told my conductor that I had heard on earth that each one of these stars had their own worlds. "But I would ask you to tell me the truth of this matter."

To this my shining guardian answered, "To Him Who is Almighty, there is nothing impossible. But from knowing that it is in His power to do this, to argue that it is His will—is no good logic in the school of heaven. We know what He pleases to reveal to us; and what He has not revealed, are secrets locked up in His own eternal counsel. For anyone to inquire into these secrets would be but bold and presumptuous curiosity. There is no doubt that He can make as many worlds as He wants—but He has not yet revealed it to us, and it is not our duty to inquire."

By this time we had come down to the lowest regions of the air. There I saw multitudes of horrible forms and dismal dark appearances which fled from the shining presence of my bright conductor.

I said, "These surely are some of the vanguard of hell—so black and so frightening are their forms!"

My conductor replied, "Now we are upon the borders of hell, and these are some of the apostate spirits that wander around like roaring lions."

Soon we were surrounded with a darkness much more black than night, and with a stench far more suffocating than that of burning sulfur. My ears were likewise filled with the horrible yelling of the damned spirits, which in comparison with—would make the most discordant notes on earth, sound like beautiful music.

"Now," said my guardian angel, "you are on the edge of hell—but do not fear the power of the destroyer. My commission from the Imperial Throne secures you from all danger. Here you may hear from devils and damned souls—the cursed causes of their endless ruin. What you ask them about, they will answer. The devils cannot hurt you, though they would want to, for they are bound by Him who has commissioned me."

We then came within hell’s territories, placed in the caverns of the infernal deep in the center of the earth. There, in a sulfurous lake of liquid fire, sat Lucifer upon a burning throne. His horrid eyes sparkled with hellish fury, as full of rage as his strong anger could make him. I saw that the demons that had fled from us as we approached from heaven had given notice of our coming. This had put all hell in an uproar, and made Lucifer release horrid blasphemies against the blessed God with an air of arrogance and pride.

"What would the Thunderer have?" said he. "He has my heaven already, whose radiant scepter this bold hand should bear. Instead of those never fading fields of light, He confines me here in this dark house of death, sorrow, and woe! What, would He take hell away from me too, that He insults me here? Ah! Could I but obtain another day to try it, I would make heaven shake and His bright throne to totter. Nor would I fear the utmost of His power, though He had fiercer flames than these to throw me in!

Although I lost the battle that day, the fault was not mine! No winged spirit in heaven strove better for the victory than I did. But, ah!" he continued with a changed voice, "that day is lost, and I am forever doomed to these dark territories! But it is still at least some comfort to me—that mankind’s sorrow waits upon me. And since I cannot fight against the Thunderer, I will make the utmost of my anger to fall on them."

I was amazed to hear his ungodly speech, and felt compelled to say to my conductor, "How justly are his blasphemies rewarded!"

"What you have heard from this apostate spirit, is both his sin and punishment; for every blasphemy he belches against heaven, makes hell the hotter to him!"

We then passed on to see more sorrowful scenes. I saw two wretched souls being tormented by a demon. He was continually plunging them in liquid fire and burning brimstone, while at the same time they accused and cursed each other! One of them said to his tormented fellow sufferer, "O cursed be your face, that ever I set eyes upon you! My misery is due to you! I may thank you for this, for it was your persuasions that brought me here. You enticed me, it was you who ensnared me into this. It was your covetousness, cheating, and oppression of the poor—that brought me here. If you had been as good an example as you had been a bad one, I might now be in heaven. O what a fool I was! When I followed your steps—you ruined me forever. O that I never had seen your face—or that you had never been born!"

The other wretch replied, "And may I not as well blame you? Don't you remember how at such a time and place you enticed me to go along with you? I was minding my own business when you called me away—so you are as guilty as I. Though I was covetous—but you were proud. Though you learned how to cheat from me—yet you taught me to lust, to lie, to get drunk and to scoff at godliness. So although I tempted you in some things, you tempted me as much in others. Therefore if you blame me, I can blame you as much. I wish you never had come here—the very sight of you wounds my soul, by bringing sin afresh into my mind. It was with you, with you—that I sinned! O grief to my soul! Since I could not avoid your companionship on earth—O that I could be without it here!"

From this sad conversation, I learned that those who are companions in sin upon earth, shall also be punished together in hell. I believe that this was the true reason why the rich man seemed so charitable to his brethren (Luke16:27-28). The reason he did not want them to join him in hell—was because they would have increased his torments!

As much as I like your write up!
I can't help but disagree that hell is not at the center of the earth!

Perhaps the usual fascinating hades but the hell where Satan lives with his fallen angels is not within the Earth!

Satan and his Angels still have their place in heaven.

The war in heaven is yet to happen.

OkCornel:
Satan and his Angels still have their place in heaven.

The war in heaven is yet to happen.

🤧🤦

Gabrielshow24:
🤧🤦

Are you telling us this has happened? If yes, when?🤷

Revelation 12 v 7-9
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and 👉they lost their place in heaven👈.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.


And why does Apostle Paul refer to spiritual forces of evil in the HEAVENLY REALMS? 🤷

Ephesians 6 v 12
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil 👉in the heavenly realms👈.

This is what happens when people let stories like Dante’s inferno replace the narratives and context of the scriptures.

OkCornel:
Are you telling us this has happened? If yes, when?🤷

Revelation 12 v 7-9
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and 👉they lost their place in heaven👈.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.


And why does Apostle Paul refer to spiritual forces of evil in the HEAVENLY REALMS? 🤷

Ephesians 6 v 12
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil 👉in the heavenly realms👈.

Where else will they dwell? 👀

That which is of the spirit stays with the spirit likewise that which is of flesh with flesh!

They are no longer part of heaven!
Even one of the oldest books of the bible, Job suggest that the devil as already been roaming on the earth with malicious intents!

Which when looked through a microscopic examination of genesis?

We see that the devil must have already been cast out;

So revelation is a book that speaks of the past, present and future but not necessarily in that order!

The Devil and his hosts have been cast of heaven!

Gabrielshow24:
Where else will they dwell? 👀

That which is of the spirit stays with the spirit likewise that which is of flesh with flesh!

They are no longer part of heaven!
Even one of the oldest books of the bible, Job suggest that the devil as already been roaming on the earth with malicious intents!

Which when looked through a microscopic examination of genesis?

We see that the devil must have already been cast out;

So revelation is a book that speaks of the past, present and future but not necessarily in that order!

The Devil and his hosts have been cast of heaven!

Who are the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms in Ephesians 6 v 12?

When did Angel Michael cast out the dragon and his angels from heaven?

OkCornel:
Who are the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms in Ephesians 6 v 12?

When did Angel Michael cast out the dragons and his angels from heaven?

So let me get you, you purport that because there exists spiritual forces that this means they are still there in heaven.

But you failed to consider that there are heavenly layers or rather put heavens stemmed from Jewish traditions.

As far as the verse is concerned, it's not specific as to what heaven they're!

The verse itself along with a lot of spiritual things of God do not come with a timemark but simple deductive reasoning suggests it's not something in the future but rather put in the past that has occurred already but the verse is reiterating it!

Gabrielshow24:
So let me get you, you purport that because there exists spiritual forces that this means they are still there in heaven.

But you failed to consider that there are heavenly layers or rather put heavens stemmed from Jewish traditions.

As far as the verse is concerned, it's not specific as to what heaven they're!

The verse itself along with a lot of spiritual things of God do not come with a timemark but simple deductive reasoning suggests it's not something in the future but rather put in the past that has occurred already but the verse is reiterating it!

So…are you agreeing there are spiritual forces of evil that still have their place in the heavenly realms?

You also mentioned Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. At what point in history did this happen? Are you also telling us the dragon has pursued the woman to the wilderness as written in Revelation 12 v 13-16 hmmm?

Gabrielshow24:
So let me get you, you purport that because there exists spiritual forces that this means they are still there in heaven.

But you failed to consider that there are heavenly layers or rather put heavens stemmed from Jewish traditions.

As far as the verse is concerned, it's not specific as to what heaven they're!

The verse itself along with a lot of spiritual things of God do not come with a timemark but simple deductive reasoning suggests it's not something in the future but rather put in the past that has occurred already but the verse is reiterating it!

Let me make it easier for you. In Revelation 12 v 10-12, after the dragon and his angels were kicked out from heaven, a loud voice in heaven mentioned something about the triumphing by the 👉blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony👈 and the dwellers in heaven should rejoice.


That puts it in a timeline between the death and resurrection of Christ up till today. So please tell us, at what point in history were Satan and his angels cast out of heaven? 🤷

OkCornel:
Let me make it easier for you. In Revelation 12 v 10-12, after the dragon and his angels were kicked out from heaven, a loud voice in heaven mentioned something about the triumphing by the 👉blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony👈 and the dwellers in heaven should rejoice.


That puts it in a timeline between the death and resurrection of Christ up till today. So please tell us, at what point in history were Satan and his angels cast out of heaven? 🤷

The self same allegory that has been since the Old testament, that it is the blood that saves!

That doesn't put it in any timeline.
It only exemplifies the method at which men were saved from him.

Which is present in pleading the blood and confessing The lordship of Jesus!
And in the old testament; the shedding of blood and confession of sins!

This verse alone is not a conclusive proof for your deductive conclusion!

OkCornel:
So…are you agreeing there are spiritual forces of evil that still have their place in the heavenly realms?

You also mentioned Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. At what point in history did this happen? Are you also telling us the dragon has pursued the woman to the wilderness as written in Revelation 12 v 13-16 hmmm?

Current theological perspective holds the woman to be Israel!
Although some argue for mankind but evidence to the contrary that's a metaphorical meaning of Israel.

So judging by that the devil hath always been in wait to consume the child.

Which suggests that he must have been existing for nefarious purposes before the birth of the child!

Hence when the child was born He was taken to heaven!

Other verses such as Jude even confirm the adversary disputing with Moses as regards the body of Moses!

Thus the devil hath always for a long time been in a state, seeking to do evil!

Evidenced once again by the story in Job!

So my brother your conclusion is not scripturally valid!

Gabrielshow24:
Current theological perspective holds the woman to be Israel!
Although some argue for mankind but evidence to the contrary that's a metaphorical meaning of Israel.

So judging by that the devil hath always been in wait to consume the child.

Which suggests that he must have been existing for nefarious purposes before the birth of the child!

Hence when the child was born He was taken to heaven!

Other verses such as Jude even confirm the adversary disputing with Moses as regards the body of Moses!

Thus the devil hath always for a long time been in a state, seeking to do evil!

Evidenced once again by the story in Job!

So my brother your conclusion is not scripturally valid!

You haven’t answered my question. If you say Satan and his angels are no longer in heaven, at what point in history did the dragon chase the woman into the wilderness where she was preserved by God for 3.5 years as written in Revelation 12 v 13-16?

Gabrielshow24:
The self same allegory that has been since the Old testament, that it is the blood that saves!

That doesn't put it in any timeline.
It only exemplifies the method at which men were saved from him.

Which is present in pleading the blood and confessing The lordship of Jesus!
And in the old testament; the shedding of blood and confession of sins!

This verse alone is not a conclusive proof for your deductive conclusion!

How many Old Testament saints conquered Satan by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony? Provide book, chapter and verse please.

Also, at what point in history did Angel Michael cast out the dragon and his angels from heaven?

Gabrielshow24:
Current theological perspective holds the woman to be Israel!
Although some argue for mankind but evidence to the contrary that's a metaphorical meaning of Israel.

So judging by that the devil hath always been in wait to consume the child.

Which suggests that he must have been existing for nefarious purposes before the birth of the child!

Hence when the child was born He was taken to heaven!

Other verses such as Jude even confirm the adversary disputing with Moses as regards the body of Moses!

Thus the devil hath always for a long time been in a state, seeking to do evil!

Evidenced once again by the story in Job!

So my brother your conclusion is not scripturally valid!

Going by the story in Job, where does it state Satan was cast out of heaven?

And if Satan no longer has his place in heaven, how come he was present on different occasions when the sons of God presented themselves before God? 🤷

OkCornel:
How many Old Testament saints conquered Satan by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony? Provide book, chapter and verse please.

Also, at what point in history did Angel Michael cast out the dragon and his angels from heaven?

The fallacy you are trying to commit here is the fallacy of Exactness 👀 and I believe you and I know better than this.

Also the bible records of how Satan stood against an high priest and God clothed him by making him victorious. Zechariah3:1-10.

There are some other instances of people overcoming the adversary by shedding of blood and confession.

In fact whenever God wanted to destroy the people what do the prophets say(summary): "repent(confession of one's sins and actions) and cleansing(purification which in the old testament involved shedding of blood)"

And don't get me started on Leviticus!

OkCornel:
Going by the story in Job, where does it state Satan was cast out of heaven?

And if Satan no longer has his place in heaven, how come he was present on different occasions when the sons of God presented themselves before God? 🤷

Is that what you inferred from the phase "place in heaven"?

Those that not show instead that he hath to come and go and he is not staying there!

Why else would he come and present himself in the first place if he were to be there already?

Or do angels present in heaven present themselves?👀

Does scriptures not state they already surround the Lord's throne?🧐

Do you see the flaw in your logic?
So using that as a criteria is out the window!

OkCornel:
You haven’t answered my question. If you say Satan and his angels are no longer in heaven, at what point in history did the dragon chase the woman into the wilderness where she was preserved by God for 3.5 years as written in Revelation 12 v 13-16?

Now you are arguing from silence!

Just because it's not clearly stated, exactly when it happened, doesn't mean we conclude it's in the future 👀.

Do you see the logical leaps you are committing?

Proponents of the "woman" being mankind states that the Devil since the beginning has sought the destruction of man and when he saw/heard regarding God bringing forth his son to the world he waited patiently to devour the son!

Hence the moral lesson of the story there is rather on the preservation of the hope of mankind, Jesus and how the devil seeing he can no longer win that war turned against the woman(either mankind or spiritual Israel of which we are) and made war with her!

So that story is a simple metaphorical summary of the birth and dominion of Christ!

And in no wise applicable as a basis for futuristic happenings rather more as at the time when the writer(John) was penning it down Jesus had already been born, died and resurrected on behalf of us!

Given more credence to it being more inclined to past happenings linked up with futuristic prophecies to create an heavenly theme of "is, was and still to come"
- not necessarily in that order!

Time to have a good laugh @Gabrielshow24.

You alluded that as far back as genesis, the devil and his angels were cast out of heaven.

You also mentioned the woman in Revelation 12 represents Israel.

Now think for a bit, when did Israel start to exist?🤷

Read through Revelation 12

1) Has Revelation 12 v 6 happened? If yes, at what point in history did it happen?

2) Has Revelation 12 v 7-9 happened? If yes, at what point in history did this happen? And how could this possibly happen before Israel existed?

3) Has Revelation 12 v 13-16 happened? If yes, at what point in history did this happen?

4) Has Revelation 12 v 17 happened?


Answer these questions and see how your argument falls apart.

Gabrielshow24:
Now you are arguing from silence!

Just because it's not clearly stated, exactly when it happened, doesn't mean we conclude it's in the future 👀.

Do you see the logical leaps you are committing?

So are you telling us Satan and his Angels were cast out of heaven before Israel ever existed? 🤷

Can you tell us at what point in history Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven?

Gabrielshow24:
Is that what you inferred from the phase "place in heaven"?

Those that not show instead that he hath to come and go and he is not staying there!

Why else would he come and present himself in the first place if he were to be there already?

Or do angels present in heaven present themselves?👀

Does scriptures not state they already surround the Lord's throne?🧐

Do you see the flaw in your logic?
So using that as a criteria is out the window!

Are you telling us Satan wasn’t with the sons of God when they presented themselves before God as written in the book of Job? 🤷

Or are you telling us this never happened in heaven?

OkCornel:
So are you telling us Satan and his Angels were cast out of heaven before Israel ever existed? 🤷

Can you tell us at what point in history Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven?

You keep emphasizing at what point but even you don't know at what point in the future it's to happen.

You are just arguing from silence

Gabrielshow24:
Now you are arguing from silence!

Just because it's not clearly stated, exactly when it happened, doesn't mean we conclude it's in the future 👀.

Do you see the logical leaps you are committing?

Proponents of the "woman" being mankind states that the Devil since the beginning has sought the destruction of man and when he saw/heard regarding God bringing forth his son to the world he waited patiently to devour the son!

Hence the moral lesson of the story there is rather on the preservation of the hope of mankind, Jesus and how the devil seeing he can no longer win that war turned against the woman(either mankind or spiritual Israel of which we are) and made war with her!

So that story is a simple metaphorical summary of the birth and dominion of Christ!

And in no wise applicable as a basis for futuristic happenings rather more as at the time when the writer(John) was penning it down Jesus had already been born, died and resurrected on behalf of us!

Given more credence to it being more inclined to past happenings linked up with futuristic prophecies to create an heavenly theme of "is, was and still to come"
- not necessarily in that order!

Oh wait a minute, are you shifting positions from the woman being Israel to the woman being mankind now? 😂

So God will preserve mankind in the desert for 1,260 days from the reach of the dragon?

And the offsprings of the woman whom the dragon will go after in Revelation 12 v 17 are what exactly?Monkeys? 🤣

Humour me some more

Gabrielshow24:
You keep emphasizing at what point but even you don't know at what point in the future it's to happen.

You are just arguing from silence

But you told us Satan and his Angels were already cast out of heaven.

When did this happen? Book, chapter and verse please

Now let’s hear the famous buzzwords “you’re arguing from silence” without answering the questions posed.

Gabrielshow24:
The fallacy you are trying to commit here is the fallacy of Exactness 👀 and I believe you and I know better than this.

Also the bible records of how Satan stood against an high priest and God clothed him by making him victorious. Zechariah3:1-10.

There are some other instances of people overcoming the adversary by shedding of blood and confession.

In fact whenever God wanted to destroy the people what do the prophets say(summary): "repent(confession of one's sins and actions) and cleansing(purification which in the old testament involved shedding of blood)"

And don't get me started on Leviticus!

Where exactly in the book of Zechariah did this high priest conquer Satan by THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB?!

Can you point me to the chapter and verse please?

OkCornel:
Are you telling us Satan wasn’t with the sons of God when they presented themselves before God as written in the book of Job? 🤷

Or are you telling us this never happened in heaven?

Satan according to Job, came along with the sons of God presenting themselves before God.

This simple story depicts
1) He wasn't in heaven but used the occasion to come before God
2) it negates your statement of him being in Heaven!
Why would he need to present himself if he were already there!?

OkCornel:
Where exactly in the book of Zechariah did this high priest conquer Satan by THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB?!

Can you point me to the chapter and verse please?

Read the fallacy of Exactness!

Then you will understand your write-up is filled with it.

I won't go down that road!

The concept or idea is well littered in the bible in fact the high priest once every year slaughters a lamb that takes away the sins of the people!

What is this child saying!

The whole old testament is a parallel of the new testament; blood of the lamb(sacrifice; filled with animal blood shedding are predominant themes in old testament.
The bible even records, "it is the blood that maketh atonement for sin!" ) and confession! (Repentance, confessing their sins before God, doing his will, obeying his word)

If you can't understand this, I wonder how you are a Christian.

You seem to forget that it was the blood of the lamb on the lamp post on the Israelites that spared their firstborns!👀

OkCornel:
Now let’s hear the famous buzzwords “you’re arguing from silence” without answering the questions posed.

It's not a buzzword it shows your fallacy is based on lack of evidence and you are using the existence of lack of evidence to draw an inherent and faulty conclusion!

Now tell me when in the future this is to occur?

Many before you have said "2000s" some even said "2014" where are they now? most of them are dead, with failed statements!

Now with all your wisdom and discernment tell me when this is to occur!!!

You just made a baseless claim, saying "in the future" and yet you have the guts to tell me to provide exactness of when it occurred.

Now to answer the question.
I stated from my initial write-up that the most predominant view is that the woman is Israel although some believe it's mankind.

How the did I change post?
I established it from the beginning.

OkCornel:
Oh wait a minute, are you shifting positions from the woman being Israel to the woman being mankind now? 😂

So God will preserve mankind in the desert for 1,260 days from the reach of the dragon?

This doesn't make any sense!
Your derision is baseless.

And the offsprings of the woman whom the dragon will go after in Revelation 12 v 17 are what exactly?Monkeys? 🤣

Humour me some more

17 alludes to the fact that satan couldn't consume the Son hence he turned his attention towards the "woman" and "the rest of her offspring"!

You act as if since the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ that christians have not been persecuted!

It's just 1260days and if I were to commit your ludicrous fallacies, I might as well say "take out 1260dwys from 2000+years"

That's exactly what you are doing!
The bible doesn't give an exact physical timeframe for all these too occur.

Is it literal 1260days?
or some metaphorical 1260days?

I enumerated this to show you the fallacies you are committing.

From old testaments we see them paint a lovely picture of Lucifer until Corruption was found in him!

And thus the old serpent of old must have fallen from God before man fell.

It's a simple logical consequence.
If the cherub called Lucifer was still good he won't seek the downfall of man but the fact that he sought and accomplished the downfall of man says something about his state!

Yes, most scholars and theologians hold that satan had already fallen but his ultimate fall is yet to come!

That's what you don't understand!

Gabrielshow24:
Read the fallacy of Exactness!

Then you will understand your write-up is filled with it.

I won't go down that road!

The concept or idea is well littered in the bible in fact the high priest once every year slaughters a lamb that takes away the sins of the people!

What is this child saying!

The whole old testament is a parallel of the new testament; blood of the lamb(sacrifice; filled with animal blood shedding are predominant themes in old testament.
The bible even records, "it is the blood that maketh atonement for sin!" ) and confession! (Repentance, confessing their sins before God, doing his will, obeying his word)

If you can't understand this, I wonder how you are a Christian.

You seem to forget that it was the blood of the lamb on the lamp post on the Israelites that spared their firstborns!👀

In other words you can’t show us any Bible verse from the old testament where Satan was conquered by the blood of the lamb and the words of the saints testimony hence you have to fill the gaps with eisegesis, leaps of logic while at the same time accuse me of committing “fallacy of exactness”?


You are really hilarious.


Now show us examples in the old testament where Satan was conquered by the blood of the lamb (Christ) and the words of testimony.


We are patiently waiting.