₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
So Jesus and the father have two different identities(God)?

So please where does John 1:18 mention essence(God)?

Since there's a God was with God statement in John 1:1, he's telling us one person was with another person. 2 identities. And in same breadth, John tells us the word was God. He's telling us that the word is no different from God he was with.


What essence are you looking for in John 1:18?
You're looking for the word Essence?

LordReed:
External confirmation with hard evidence. Like evidence of a global catastrophic flood (which we don’t have) or repeatability of some miracle, like someone turning water to wine in a controlled setting (which I bet someone will say you can't test god). This is in general, all evidence must be evaluated on their own merits on a case by case basis.

Asking for hard evidence of a global flood in the same manner as we ask for evidence of the Big Bang highlights a parallel in terms of scientific inquiry and the limits of empirical evidence.

Big Bang evidence includes cosmic background radiation, the expansion of the universe, and observations of distant galaxies. These provide indirect evidence that supports the Big Bang theory, but the event itself cannot be directly observed, as it occurred billions of years ago.

Similarly, evidence for the global flood could include regional geological changes or ancient flood myths from various cultures, but definitive proof of a global event like the flood as described in Genesis is not present. The event itself is not observable, and much of the evidence would be indirect, if it exists.

Science is simply limited to understand realms outside it, and evolving.

Nachmonides:
Balderdash, I'll first tackle the method you have mentioned, which is, it has to be scientific. That's a dishonest thing to do.

Science is limited to the physical realm and is not equipped to evaluate or prove concepts that are outside of it, such as faith, morality, or divine inspiration. These are not always testable or repeatable in a laboratory setting.

For instance, the existence of God, the purpose of life, or the afterlife are metaphysical or philosophical questions that go beyond the purview of scientific experimentation.

Truth is not limited to only what can be scientifically proven; some truths exist in experience, relationships, and faith that cannot be captured through empirical means.
The main problem with looking for scientific truth in religious matters is that science and religion operate in different realms. Science seeks to explain the physical world using observation and evidence, while religious truths often deal with spiritual, moral, and metaphysical questions that are not always measurable or observable. This doesn't mean that scientific truth is irrelevant, but it does highlight that there are different kinds of truth that require different approaches to understanding.

The balderdash is from you because we are not discussing if the god exists but the truth of the Bible.

The so called truths of the Bible have very obvious physical effects which should have been very evident. So miss me with that nonsense about religious truth BS.

MaxInDHouse:
That's exactly what no atheist or agnostic can deny not just quoting LETTERS out of a book that's not revered by all.

Paul said in his letter to Christians in Corinth:


He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. ‭2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV‬

What's the import of this statement?

Paul knew how each Judaist used to ARGUE using the scriptures to back his personal opinion so it's like LETTER or CODE that each person holds so dear yet they keep fighting and killing one another over the CODE but what of God's SPIRIT?
This is what unites believers to WORK together as ONE {John 17:22} so that no atheist or agnostic can deny the evidence that's obvious to everyone not just what is read in a book to back the same book but FINE WORKS that's SEEN globally {Matthew 5:14-16} everywhere true Christians are doing what Jesus taught them Unitedly! Act 1:8

All of you are quoting the scriptures for sure but you can never ever find one person to join you in doing what Jesus commanded his disciples.

I remember my friend in Deeperlife back then he asked me:
"How do you (Jehovah's Witnesses) keep the preaching and teaching work at heart so that you're always doing it? I tried to organize my people in Deeperlife but each time we start it doesn't last more than a week or two before everyone gets tired but you Jehovah's Witnesses never gets tired of the work. Please what is the secret?"
Back then i was still new among the JWs and i'm not good in sighting the scriptures but today i know why no other group can WORK together no matter how much you people try it always end up in arguments and each person will go his or her own way justifying himself or herself while the assignment Jesus gave his disciples is left only for Jehovah's Witnesses! Matthew 10:11-13; 28:19-20; Luke 10:6

The Bible is the only book in the world that has the audacity to hang its credibility and authenticity on its record of recording history before it happens.

Nachmonides:
Since there's a God was with God statement in John 1:1, he's telling us one person was with another person. 2 identities. And in same breadth, John tells us the word was God. He's telling us that the word is no different from God he was with.


What essence are you looking for in John 1:18?
You're looking for the word Essence?

So was John telling us in John 1:1 that there are two seperate identities(God) or that the two identities(God) were the same?


Below in the screenshot was your previous submission. Kindly compare it to what you wrote up there.

Was John talking of 2 identities or 2 persons?

LordReed:
The balderdash is from you because we are not discussing if the god exists but the truth of the Bible.
The so called truths of the Bible have very obvious physical effects which should have been very evident. So miss me with that nonsense about religious truth BS.

The truth of the Bible never change just that you people don't want the truth!

Before the first ever miracles performed through the hands of a human God never promised the descendants of Abraham that he will use one of them to perform miracles rather what God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is that their descendants will inherit the land of Canaan so when Moses got to Egypt and started performing miracles people thought he will always perform miracles each time they need anything but is that what God promised their forefathers?

NO!

So it's only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephuneh that got to the promised land out of millions of Israelites who were above 20 years when they left Egypt.

What did God promised in the Bible that can't work except due to divine intervention?

You people will ignore that demanding what God never promised you as if without you His plans will not work.
As long as we have people like Joshua and Caleb today JEHOVAH will work with them and as for the rest they are on their own!

Truthseeker10:
So was John telling us in John 1:1 that there are two seperate identities(God) or that the two identities(God) were the same?


Below in the screenshot was your previous submission. Kindly compare it to what you wrote up there.

Was John talking of 2 identities or 2 persons?

Persons: In the context of John 1:1, the Father and the Son are two persons within the Trinity. They have distinct personhoods but share the same essence or divinity.

Identities: Identity can be seen as the way one perceives or understands a person or being. In the case of John 1:1, while the Father and Son are distinct persons, they share the same identity in that they are both fully God—they share the same essence. The Father is not the Son, but the Son is fully divine, and thus, they share the same divine identity.

John 1:1 speaks of two persons—God the Father and God the Son—but they share the same divine essence or identity.

Nachmonides:
The Bible is the only book in the world that has the audacity to hang its credibility and authenticity on its record of recording history before it happens.

Ọmọ don't be deceived the Quran also have the same thing Muhammad prophesy many things that's happening today and he called it "END TIME EVENTS"
So if we are to go by your criteria both books are authentic, shey?

Nachmonides:
Persons: In the context of John 1:1, the Father and the Son are two persons within the Trinity. They have distinct personhoods but share the same essence or divinity.

Identities: Identity can be seen as the way one perceives or understands a person or being. In the case of John 1:1, while the Father and Son are distinct persons, they share the same identity in that they are both fully God—they share the same essence. The Father is not the Son, but the Son is fully divine, and thus, they share the same divine identity.

John 1:1 speaks of two persons—God the Father and God the Son—but they share the same divine essence or identity.

I'm not wrong when I say 2 identities, or 2 persons


2 identities in that they are distinct persons.

I can also say 1 identity in that they both are God.

Nachmonides:
Persons: In the context of John 1:1, the Father and the Son are two persons within the Trinity. They have distinct personhoods but share the same essence or divinity.

Identities: Identity can be seen as the way one perceives or understands a person or being. In the case of John 1:1, while the Father and Son are distinct persons, they share the same identity in that they are both fully God—they share the same essence. The Father is not the Son, but the Son is fully divine, and thus, they share the same divine identity.

John 1:1 speaks of two persons—God the Father and God the Son—but they share the same divine essence or identity.

You are very funny oo....were you not the one claiming that essence and identity is not the same and that Jesus is not the same identity as the father?

Look at your submission below in the screenshot. You are very funny oo.

MaxInDHouse:
Ọmọ don't be deceived the Quran also have the same thing Muhammad prophesy many things that's happening today and he called it "END TIME EVENTS"
So if we are to go by your criteria both books are authentic, shey?

I said recording history before it happens, not prophesying what is going to happen.



Let me explain:

Recording history before it happens refers to the Bible’s ability to prophesy and describe events that would occur many years later with remarkable accuracy. This is especially significant because it implies a higher perspective of reality, where God, being outside of time, can reveal future events in the present.

Isaiah 46:9-10: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.”

This verse emphasizes that God can declare the end from the beginning, a clear affirmation of divine omniscience and control over history. And he can also say what is to come (prophecy)


While many religious texts, including the Quran, contain prophecies, the Bible's ability to describe history in advance, often with intricate details that later align with historical events.

The Quran, for example, has prophetic teachings about the end times and events to come, but it doesn’t emphasize the concept of recording history before it happens in the same way the Bible does. The Bible contains specific instances where future historical events, like the rise and fall of nations, were written down well in advance, which adds a layer of credibility to the divine inspiration of the Bible.

Truthseeker10:
You are very funny oo....were you not the one claiming that essence and identity is not the same and that Jesus is not the same identity as the father?

Look at your submission below in the screenshot. You are very funny oo.

Yes, I can see it.

Jesus and the father share the same identity, and they don't share the same identity at the same time.


1 identity: They both are God

2 identities: Jesus is the Son, God is the Father.


Identity is different from Persons, and Essence.

Nachmonides:
Asking for hard evidence of a global flood in the same manner as we ask for evidence of the Big Bang highlights a parallel in terms of scientific inquiry and the limits of empirical evidence.

Big Bang evidence includes cosmic background radiation, the expansion of the universe, and observations of distant galaxies. These provide indirect evidence that supports the Big Bang theory, but the event itself cannot be directly observed, as it occurred billions of years ago.

Similarly, evidence for the global flood could include regional geological changes or ancient flood myths from various cultures, but definitive proof of a global event like the flood as described in Genesis is not present. The event itself is not observable, and much of the evidence would be indirect, if it exists.

Science is simply limited to understand realms outside it, and evolving.

There is no evidence of a global catastrophic flood. Simple. The attempt to equate evidence for the Big Bang with an ancient tale is flat out rubbish. All it takes is a tiny bit of reasoning to know that any ancient civilisation that developed near a body of water will experience flooding and therefore have stories about floods. To leap from that to all flood stories are about some great global flood is absurditiy pro max.

MaxInDHouse:
The truth of the Bible never change just that you people don't want the truth!

Before the first ever miracles performed through the hands of a human God never promised the descendants of Abraham that he will use one of them to perform miracles rather what God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is that their descendants will inherit the land of Canaan so when Moses got to Egypt and started performing miracles people thought he will always perform miracles each time they need anything but is that what God promised their forefathers?

NO!

So it's only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephuneh that got to the promised land out of millions of Israelites who were above 20 years when they left Egypt.

What did God promised in the Bible that can't work except due to divine intervention?

You people will ignore that demanding what God never promised you as if without you His plans will not work.
As long as we have people like Joshua and Caleb today JEHOVAH will work with them and as for the rest they are on their own!

Oga there is no evidence of a global catastrophic flood.

Nachmonides:
Yes, I can see it.

Jesus and the father share the same identity, and they don't share the same identity at the same time.


1 identity: They both are God

2 identities: Jesus is the Son, God is the Father.


Identity is different from Persons, and Essence.

Ah....where did you get the interpretation in bold from? Kindly quote a verse.

You Said Jesus is the son, God is the father. Is God no longer Jesus? What kind of confusion is this?

Were you not the one that just said that Jesus and the father share the same essence or identity?


Why are you just contradicting yourself up and
down?

Nachmonides:
I said recording history before it happens, not prophesying what is going to happen.



Let me explain:

Recording history before it happens refers to the Bible’s ability to prophesy and describe events that would occur many years later with remarkable accuracy. This is especially significant because it implies a higher perspective of reality, where God, being outside of time, can reveal future events in the present.

Isaiah 46:9-10: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.”

This verse emphasizes that God can declare the end from the beginning, a clear affirmation of divine omniscience and control over history. And he can also say what is to come (prophecy)


While many religious texts, including the Quran, contain prophecies, the Bible's ability to describe history in advance, often with intricate details that later align with historical events.

The Quran, for example, has prophetic teachings about the end times and events to come, but it doesn’t emphasize the concept of recording history before it happens in the same way the Bible does. The Bible contains specific instances where future historical events, like the rise and fall of nations, were written down well in advance, which adds a layer of credibility to the divine inspiration of the Bible.

So can you point out any recorded history the Bible mentioned that's happening today that's not also found in the Quran?

Note what the atheist told you:

"You are using the book to authenticate itself"

So we don't need something that's recorded and happened in the Bible because it's not in our own time to verify but if something is recorded in the Bible and is happening today everyone will know that it is not manipulated!

LordReed:
There is no evidence of a global catastrophic flood. Simple. The attempt to equate evidence for the Big Bang with an ancient tale is flat out rubbish. All it takes is a tiny bit of reasoning to know that any ancient civilisation that developed near a body of water will experience flooding and therefore have stories about floods. To leap from that to all flood stories are about some great global flood is absurditiy pro max.

I only gave my perspective on the scientific side, to appeal to your senses.

The Bible is not meant to be a book to be scientifically proven. It's meant to pass a message across. It may therefore include things that may or may not be able to be scientifically proven.

LordReed:
Oga there is no evidence of a global catastrophic flood.

That will only amount to endless arguments but what of prophecies found written in the Bible that's being fulfilled today?

MaxInDHouse:
So can you point out any recorded history the Bible mentioned that's happening today that's not also found in the Quran?

Note what the atheist told you:

"You are using the book to authenticate itself"

So we don't need something that's recorded and happened in the Bible because it's not in our own time to verify but if something is recorded in the Bible and is happening today everyone will know that it is not manipulated!

I say that to appeal to their senses.

If they want the physical, the bible has it. It wrote about Jesus and his death and resurrection before he appeared in his incarnation to fulfill it.
The existence of Jesus can also be verified from outside the Bible through various writings and archaeological findings.

Truthseeker10:
Ah....where did you get the interpretation in bold from? Kindly quote a verse.

You Said Jesus is the son, God is the father. Is God no longer Jesus? What kind of confusion is this?

Were you not the one that just said that Jesus and the father share the same essence or identity?


Why are you just contradicting yourself up and
down?

Go and do your research on what identity, person, essence means.


They both share the same identity in that they are both God


They both have different identities in persons.

Nachmonides:
Go and do your research on what identity, person, essence means.


They both share the same identity in that they are both God


They both have different identities in persons.

Oga you said Jesus and God the father don't have the same identity na...why the contradiction?
.
You also said that John 1:1 talks of 2 persons being linked to the God identity. So where are you getting your 'different identities in person' from?

Na wa for you oo.

Truthseeker10:
Oga you said Jesus and God the father don't have the same identity na...why the contradiction?
.
You also said that John 1:1 talks of 2 persons being linked to the God identity. So where are you getting your 'different identities in person' from?

Na wa for you oo.

Yes they don't have the same identity in person, in that Jesus is the Son, God is the Father.

Truthseeker10:
Oga you said Jesus and God the father don't have the same identity na...why the contradiction?
.
You also said that John 1:1 talks of 2 persons being linked to the God identity. So where are you getting your 'different identities in person' from?

Na wa for you oo.

I thought I was communicating to one who understands what identity, essence, and person is.


I'm not wrong in my statement.

They share the same identity in Essence.

They don't share the same identity in Person.

Nachmonides:
They share the same identity in Essence.

They don't share the same identity in Person.

Identity asks, who are they?

Who are they? - They both are God

Who are they? - Jesus the Son, God the Father.

Who are you? - You're a human being
Who are you? - You are the president
Who are you? - You are Donald Trump

Nachmonides:
Yes they don't have the same identity in person, in that Jesus is the Son, God is the Father.

Is God no longer Jesus?

Did you not say that person and identity is different, that John 1:1 is talking of 2 persons linked to the God identity.....so why the contradiction now?

Nachmonides:
I say that to appeal to their senses.
If they want the physical, the bible has it. It wrote about Jesus and his death and resurrection before he appeared in his incarnation to fulfill it.
The existence of Jesus can also be verified from outside the Bible through various writings and archaeological findings.

So is the evidence of Ṣàngó from Ọ̀yọ́.

What we need is not the stories buy what it has to do with our time now?

Nachmonides:
Who are you? - You're a human being
Who are you? - You are the president
Who are you? - You are Donald Trump

Use this example to describe 'God' in John 1:1.

Truthseeker10:
Is God no longer Jesus?

Did not say that person and identity is different, that John 1:1 is talking of 2 persons linked to the God identity.....so why the contradiction now?

There are no contradictions.
I have explained it, Jesus is God, and he is the Son.

Truthseeker10:
Use this example to describe 'God' in John 1:1.

Who is He? - He is God
Who is He? - He is the Son
Who is He? - He is the Word

Nachmonides:
There are no contradictions.
I have explained it, Jesus is God, and he is the Son.

Oga John said no one has seen 'God'. What 'God' identity was he referred to?