₦airaland Forum

Ovacoma:
Command to rape??

Sterope:
Was it that if not legalising rape?

We don't have an equivalent of legalising rose in the a Qur'an and not even the command to rape

They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

Ovacoma:
Command to rape, and example of where the commandment was carried out.

Sterope:
The UK parliament is made up of people that don't care about them and hates Islam openly and secretly (how come you lack that awareness) so if they voted against them, it has nothing to do with their faith but could be about they will uncover about themselves as well. You will have to go to them to ask.

Sterope:
The first line is a lie. Can you defend that in front of your Lord?

As for the second one, let me help you with the research you have chosen to ignore

Sex slavery in Islam

This is one very complicated topic, fyi with varying evidence, but I like to focus on the Qur'an. Frankly, it has little to do with the actual faith. By that I mean, do I believe in God according to the Qur'an, and Muhammad is definitely is the messenger? Yes!.

1. In the Qur'an, God referred to sexual relationships with (whom your right hand possesses) for some reason, God did not use the word "your slave" - first complexity on the matter.

2. There are verses of the Qur'an that says free believing men and women can marry slave for example, I can marry my slave, not rape them.

And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess. And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other. Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. (4:25)

Marry those of you that are single, (whether men or women), and those of your male and female slaves that are righteous. 24:32



One of the biggest scholars in Islam says:

Al-Shafi’i said, “If a man forcefully acquired a slave girl and then has intercourse with her thereafter, and he is not ignorant, the slave girl is taken away from him, he is fined, and he is punished for adultery.” (Kitab al-umm)

This is based on narration where Umar commands Khalid bin Walid to stone to death Dirar Ibn al-Azwar who rapes a captured girl.

And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; (4:33)

3. It is disputed whether the prophet Muhammad married the slave he was gifted by one non Muslim ruler from Egypt.



General Slavery in Islam

1. Slaves were mainly from booty of war after fighting. Those that fought in wars or/and where you have a community conspiring together, it includes them

2. Quran doesn't encourage slavery. It doesn't say anyone should take another as a slave. What it rather encourages is freeing slaves for them as part of charity.

3. The prophet actually freed a lot of slaves of war, mostly on non Muslims on humanitarian grounds, as for other slaves he sold the slaves of one tribe that committed treason mainly to their other Jewish tribes.

4. You are to treat them fairly. For example, if your family wears gold and brocade, you must buy same for your slaves.

5. You can't overwork them

6. If you eat 6 ogunfe per meal in your household, the "slaves" will eat the same number of ogunfe with the same food, wear the same clothes, etc

7. They can buy their freedom

8. They get half the punishment of free people. In an lslamic society where you are to flog a person 100 lashes, they get 50 lashes.


Ultimately, Muslsims are expected to obey the law of the land and there were other sexual acts they performed that are contrary to Islamic injunctions so if they did this in a just islamic society, forever in jail or death!!!

Ojuntana:
It is not a lie. There's a quranic verse that supports it.

Your research is not based on the hadith or the Qur'an. It is simply a revisionist approach to Islam. Sexual slavery was permitted by Muhammad in an hadith. A quranic verse also supports it. Both are supreme laws of Islam which have not been abrogated so I don't see how you can make research that contradicts Islamic texts

Ojuntana:
It is not a lie. There's a quranic verse that supports it.

Your research is not based on the hadith or the Qur'an. It is simply a revisionist approach to Islam. Sexual slavery was permitted by Muhammad in an hadith. A quranic verse also supports it. Both are supreme laws of Islam which have not been abrogated so I don't see how you can make research that contradicts Islamic texts

Sterope:
Like I said, read yours first before coming for mine! You won't find an equivalent in the Qur'an despite your wishes.



Numbers 31:7-18




Deuteronomy 20:10-14



Deuteronomy 22:23-24



Judges 5:30



Exodus 21:7-11


Zechariah 14:1-2

@Ojutana

Sterope:
Is it because I mentioned erroneous? A word you will never accord muslims. Well, I like that I am a better person than you and not a hypocrite. I answered your question on slavery in Islam: https://www.nairaland.com/8309906/kemi-badenoch-demands-national-inquiry/6#133678470

If you like to continue being a hypocrite, your headache!

And I am aware of trans saharan slave trade, and no it isn't about Islam.

Sterope:
Like I said, read yours first before coming for mine because you know nothing about Islam. You are sheep influenced by Islamophobia, propaganda!

You won't find an equivalent in the Qur'an despite your wishes and errorenus assumptions.



Numbers 31:7-18




Deuteronomy 20:10-14



Deuteronomy 22:23-24



Judges 5:30



Exodus 21:7-11


Zechariah 14:1-2

@Ojuntana

Ojuntana:
It is not you that labelled the interpretation of the verse erroneous. It was Wilberforce who did and he convinced the Queen of England then. Even in the US, it was a priest who started the campaign against slave holding. I have the facts with me.
Like I already told you, in Islam, you're to follow the teachings and actions of Muhammad and his teachings and actions involved slave holding and slave trade. Are you aware he sold slaves as well? So how can you claim slavery is erroneous is Islam? Do you then agree that Muhammad was erroneous in his ways?
Trans saharan slave trade was carried out by Muslims from Arabia just as trans Atlantic slave trade was carried out by Christians from the West. If you say saharan slave trade was not about islam, what makes you think Atlantic slave trade was about Christianity?

Sterope:
It is funny how slavery of people who fight you or who aim to case you harm is wrong but prison would have been better abi? Or freedom so they can fight you again.

Funny many scholars agreed that was the practical thing to do then except modern people with their acclaimed western values. Lol.

Ovacoma:
Good job! Since u don't understand the meaning of rape.
Even mentally underdeveloped imbeciles won't take these as commandments to rape women. Bye!!

Ojuntana:
It is not you that labelled the interpretation of the verse erroneous. It was Wilberforce who did and he convinced the Queen of England then. Even in the US, it was a priest who started the campaign against slave holding. I have the facts with me.
Like I already told you, in Islam, you're to follow the teachings and actions of Muhammad and his teachings and actions involved slave holding and slave trade. Are you aware he sold slaves as well? So how can you claim slavery is erroneous is Islam? Do you then agree that Muhammad was erroneous in his ways?
Trans saharan slave trade was carried out by Muslims from Arabia just as trans Atlantic slave trade was carried out by Christians from the West. If you say saharan slave trade was not about islam, what makes you think Atlantic slave trade was about Christianity?

Sterope:
Was it that if not legalising rape?

We don't have an equivalent of legalising rose in the a Qur'an and not even the command to rape

Sterope:
Like I said, read yours first before coming for mine because you know nothing about Islam. You are sheep influenced by Islamophobia, propaganda!

You won't find an equivalent in the Qur'an despite your wishes and errorenus assumptions.



Numbers 31:7-18




Deuteronomy 20:10-14



Deuteronomy 22:23-24



Judges 5:30



Exodus 21:7-11


Zechariah 14:1-2

@

Sterope:
If you were in my shoes you won't have mentioned the erroneous, can't see the hypocrisy yet? Lol.

I am pretty sure a lot of other priests disagreed with him. I don't care who it was.

I have done my best to educate you. Good luck.

Sterope:
The quran verse you have chosen not to quote because you know the truth, but I referred to anyway. Whereas I mentioned Quran verses and a scholar who did not belong to this century.

I know what you are. Stay ignorant and if God wills, may he guide you to the truth.


A

Sterope:
It is funny how slavery of people who fight you or who aim to case you harm is wrong but prison would have been better abi? Or freedom so they can fight you again.

Funny many scholars agreed that was the practical thing to do then except modern people with their acclaimed western values. Lol.

@Ojuntana

Sterope:
I like this submission.

Just for emphasis: there is no part of religion that says to grab young girls and groom them. In an islamic country, they will be killed for these crimes.

Jail is too lenient anyways.

Sterope:
If you were in my shoes you won't have mentioned the erroneous, can't see the hypocrisy yet? Lol.

I am pretty sure a lot of other priests disagreed with him. I don't care who it was.

I have done my best to educate you. Good luck.

Ojuntana:
First of all, let me remind you that Christians do not follow the dictates of the OT. All those laws are Jewish laws given to them due to the hardness of their hearts as told them by Jesus himself. Jesus already fulfilled those laws for Christians through his redemptive work which is why no Christian will face Jerusalem to pray no observe the passover or any other Jewish feasts or practices.
That said, none of the verses you quoted above supports rape.
Numbers 31 never said the virgins are to be raped. If you insist that "save or keep for yourselves" means having sex with the virgins then it must mean that the men are also allowed to have sex with "livestock and other plunder" as written in Deuteronomy 20 since same phrase is used.
As for Deuteronomy 22, it is obvious that fornication in the open is what is being prohibited here and not rape. The woman is expected to raise her voice if she's about to be raped and if she doesn't and they got caught, they both die. I believe the penalty for adultery in islam is stoning to death as well.
Judges 5 does not connote rape as well. This is known because of you read Exodus 21, it is obvious that the female slave is brought to work in her master's house not to be a sex slave. That's why the proviso for marrying her is put there if the master so desires.
Lastly, Zechariah 14 is a prophecy of what will come to pass not an invitation to rape. God is foretelling what will befall the Israelites in the hands of their enemies for disobeying him. Surely you can't interpret that as a command to rape.

TV01:
Thank you. I won't gainsay the point you make about what the religion says. Not because I agree, but because from a social POV, what is of interest, especially to the non-religious, who know or care little for the scriptures or doctrines, is the "outworking" of the religion.

The title of this thread in part reads "National Inquiry Into Rape Gangs By Muslim Men". Needless to say, across Europe's liberal western democracies, where there are significant minority populations of Muslims, this rape gang phenom occurs. In the UK, it was mostly Pakistani led given they are the majority of this minority population. But this crime occurs whatever the major national\ethnic background of the Muslim men. In fact, in one UK town (it has been documented as happening in over 50), where Somalis make up the majority of the Muslim population, it was Somali led.

Regardless of claims, as to what the religion says, why is there this dissonance? Why does this occur? Does it not happen in Islamic majority countries due to the different treatment of believing vs. non-believing women? Or due to the harshness of the penalties?


TV

smokinloud:
Oga madam, you don't have any moral ground to stand on because your prophet was a rapist and he preached rape. In surah 4:24 allah actually ordered muslims to rape their captives, you only must marry a free woman

Sterope:
I love it when non Muslims quote hadiths carelessly especially one that doesn't abide with the Quran. What do you know about how Hadiths came to be?

I want you to go through this link very carefully.

https://qurantalkblog.com/2023/01/20/abu-hurayra/

When you are done, now research how hadiths were selected and graded and the troubles we have with hadiths till date.

Sterope:
I understand but I am reiterating that when it comes to minority they make the issues all about their religion or ethnicity. No one does that about white people. Crime is crime with them except the minority!

Sterope:
No UK scholar has come out tell us what and where it is stated in the Qur'an.

Sterope:
More cultural than religion biko.

Sterope:
The general belief that white women are sexually liberal therefore they are game for sexual abuse because their culture is sexually liberal.

TV01:
On the contrary, in this instance the authorities and institutions that should have dealt with this and nipped it in the bud, not wanting to be labelled racist or Islamophobic were all hesitant to act. Going as far as to turn a blind-eye or even cover up the offences. If the perpetrators had been white or other than Muslim, it wouldn't have persisted for as long as 5 decades according to some accounts.


A case from the Islamic scriptures is easily made. My take here is the "social outworking", but if you would like to go there, I or any number of NL Religious thread posters could oblige if so inclined.

We hear the "culture not religion" trope a lot when defending infarctions by Muslims. But that itself is an indictment of Islam. Of all religions, Islam colours, and in many cases hollows out indigenous culture the most. If Islam is what it claims to be and does what it purports to do, regressive cultural behaviours should be extirpated, not live alongside the religion.

Yes, the west and it's people are largely "sexually liberal. How does that make them "game for abuse". And at 11-15 years of age, which was the age range of most of the victims and at which statutory consent cannot be given?

And when you say "white women", is that not racist? What about white Muslim women? Or devout religious white women of any faith? Quick to play the racist Islamophobia card when such clear bigotry permeates your own beliefs and thinking.


TV

Sterope:
Cool off biko

I don't support perpetrators regardless of what they claim or who they claim. If I had an ounce of power, death sentence please

My issue is labelling it "Islam". Majority of the Muslims in the UK are not into it nor would they support them based on religion. Maybe culture and familiar, yes but not religion.

smokinloud:
I quoted the Qur'an 4:24 with the hadiths. The hadiths I quoted are Sahih and the chain are proper. You think you're the only one that knows the science of hadiths. When did Sahih hadiths becomes unauthentic and how's it against the Qur'an. Show me where the Qur'an forbids having sex with sex-slaves. Qur'an 4:24 says you can have sex with whom your right hand posses (your slaves) the exception are free women that you need to marry. Abi this one thinks he's talking to an ignorant?!.

Sterope:
That verse started from verse 22 and was talking about marriage and 24 clearly was talking about conducting marriage. Subtracting married women from that equation is telling you that married women are forbidden however for captives, their married status no longer holds. Now they have joined categories of people you can marry.

You have another verse of the Qur'an that says

Marry those of you that are single, (whether men or women), and those of your male and female slaves that are righteous. 24:32

You know another interesting fact: Bukhari collected over 600 000 hadiths, only 7000+ were graded!!! So no, don't come at me with hadiths ever unless you understand the complexity, the differences amongst Muslims or the Qur'an .

Have a good day sir.

Sterope:
That verse started from verse 22 and was talking about marriage and 24 clearly was talking about conducting marriage. Subtracting married women from that equation is telling you that married women are forbidden however for captives, their married status no longer holds. Now they have joined categories of people you can marry.

You have another verse of the Qur'an that says

Marry those of you that are single, (whether men or women), and those of your male and female slaves that are righteous. 24:32

You know another interesting fact: Bukhari collected over 600 000 hadiths, only 7000+ were graded!!! So no, don't come at me with hadiths ever unless you understand the complexity, the differences amongst Muslims or the Qur'an .

Have a good day sir.