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Noah, Abraham, Melchizedek, and the rest all lived before the law was given to Moses. What laws did they obey?

tctrills:
Noah, Abraham, Melchizedek, and the rest all lived before the law was given to Moses. What laws did they obey?

Good question.

God's Law called Natural Law.

And it is those same Laws that God got Moses to write down.

And it is on these Laws man made laws called legal steal their power from.

Which is why they say there is no law, the lie they call lacuna they deep their dirty crooked and unlawful hands into Natural Law to bring down The Law there.

So God's Law commonly known as Natural Law was the Law in force even before Moses and Hammurabi and even before Adam.

Which is why Egypt's king had no right to take Abraham's wife. And when he took her erroneously and wrongfully, he paid Damages to Abraham for his breach.

Which is why The Laws on contracts and marriages and inheritances were already in place even before bandits started making themselves rulers and kings. And it is under this Law that you would see that government and their constitutions are unlawful and fake.

Let me stop you in case you are not interested.

tctrills:
Noah, Abraham, Melchizedek, and the rest all lived before the law was given to Moses. What laws did they obey?

God YHVH has been our judge since before the mosaic laws and even for those who did not have the mosaic law

Rom.2.14 - Even when Gentiles(the uncircumcised), who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.
Rom.2.15 - They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.

To Noah and Abraham who were recorded as righteous, Noah among the wicked men of his day probably didn't go around hurting people and was chosen to save lives. Abraham believed God, and showed himself to be compassionate to interceed and intervene when Sodom, were lot who left Abraham was, was under threat of destruction.

So even though God hadn't written his law into the hearts of men, he gave them the intelligence and conscience to be able to tell what is evil and wickedness, because we all feel pain and know what we hate so why do so to others as well. But many of their hearts insisted on going for their own pleasures.

Abram said, Sarai say you are my sister because I fear that the men of this place do not fear God and may kill me to have you. God had to rebuke Pharaoh who knew what was wrong but was ignorant of his own mistakes, not because there was an established law in that regard but because good men have said it was wrong to take what belonged to others. Remember Job who lived before Moses.

Joseph learnt of his Father's anger towards Reuben and didn't sleep with Potiphars wife.

Jacobs sons killed men because of their anger they claimed was justified but Jacob saw it as wrong and evil what they did, so you see that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong, that's why Paul explained that the laws reveal our sins. So if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know and some even when they get to know they still disobey and continue anyway.

gohf:
God YHVH has been our judge since before the mosaic laws and even for those who did not have the mosaic law

Rom.2.14 - Even when Gentiles(the uncircumcised), who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.
Rom.2.15 - They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.

To Noah and Abraham who were recorded as righteous, Noah among the wicked men of his day probably didn't go around hurting people and was chosen to save lives. Abraham believed God, and showed himself to be compassionate to interceed and intervene when Sodom, were lot who left Abraham was, was under threat of destruction.

So even though God hadn't written his law into the hearts of men, he gave them the intelligence and conscience to be able to tell what is evil and wickedness, because we all feel pain and know what we hate so why do so to others as well. But many of their hearts insisted on going for their own pleasures.

Abram said, Sarai say you are my sister because I fear that the men of this place do not fear God and may kill me to have you. God had to rebuke Pharaoh who knew what was wrong but was ignorant of his own mistakes, not because there was an established law in that regard but because good men have said it was wrong to take what belonged to others. Remember Job who lived before Moses.

Joseph learnt of his Father's anger towards Reuben and didn't sleep with Potiphars wife.

Jacobs sons killed men because of their anger they claimed was justified but Jacob saw it as wrong and evil what they did, so you see that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong, that's why Paul explained that the laws reveal our sins. So if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know and some even when they get to know they still disobey and continue anyway.

Your short answer is that these men of old followed the ways God through their intelligence and not through revelation?
Are you saying that with just our intelligence and without revelation, man can discover the one true God, know his ways and serve him?

Your last point is that until the coming of the law, men did not know right from wrong. But then what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit?

tctrills:
Your short answer is that these men of old followed the ways God through their intelligence and not through revelation?
Are you saying that with just our intelligence and without revelation, man can discover the one true God, know his ways and serve him?

Your last point is that until the coming of the law, men did not know right from wrong. But then what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit?

first off all like I wrote, God, "he gave them the intelligence" and I also stated that God revealed to them, "if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know"

So your first question is NO, that's not my answer, and also to your second question as well.


For your third question I wrote, "until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong" and not like you understood it to be that men didn't know right from wrong and that's why we have intelligence and know what pain is.

Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong and besides the fruit Adam and Eve ate did give that to them, it just brought them death. God already told Adam what was wrong to do. God's word and revelation is what gives us the ability to discern but if man doesn't listen, it is akin to rejecting wisdom and remaining a fool.

gohf:
first off all like I wrote, God, "he gave them the intelligence" and I also stated that God revealed to them, "if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know"

So your first question is NO, that's not my answer, and also to your second question as well.


For your third question I wrote, "until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong" and not like you understood it to be that men didn't know right from wrong and that's why we have intelligence and know what pain is.

Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong and besides the fruit Adam and Eve ate did give that to them, it just brought them death. God already told Adam what was wrong to do. God's word and revelation is what gives us the ability to discern but if man doesn't listen, it is akin to rejecting wisdom and remaining a fool.

Let's start from your last response. You are right when you say Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong. But then you also wrote that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong. Not realizing wrong means that such a person doesn't know wrong and right. It's just a play of words.
Now to the first part, you seem to be saying that the holy men of old received revelation from God.
If so, what was revealed to them, the laws of Moses or the higher laws that Christ taught?

tctrills:
Your short answer is that these men of old followed the ways God through their intelligence and not through revelation?
Are you saying that with just our intelligence and without revelation, man can discover the one true God, know his ways and serve him?

Your last point is that until the coming of the law, men did not know right from wrong. But then what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit?

Do you not see that through Nature no one dare kill Cain even though they felt like doing so?

God's Law which is known as Natural Law was The Law in force even when Adam female and male ate the fruit to wit what we call The Law of Fair hearing and criminal Law was fully applied.

Eg Right to Fair Hearing.
To be informed promptly and in a language he understands and in detail, the nature of the offence for which he is to be charged.

LEGAL SAFEGUARDS TO ENSURE FAIR TRIAL OF AN ...
267(1) ACJA an accused person charged with an offence is entitled to either defend himself ...

Do you not see that these Laws were applied in the case of God vs. Adam?

And remember there was nothing like legal and constitutions and Acts, (they say Hammurabi is the first codification of Law) so where did all these Laws come from since legal was not in existence?

Answer: Natural Law which is God's Law.

So, you see everyone knew God back then and could have known God if they wanted to for unlike today, His Presence was very well felt which is why the whole world was full of pagans and naturality

tctrills:
Let's start from your last response. You are right when you say Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong. But then you also wrote that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong. Not realizing wrong means that such a person doesn't know wrong and right. It's just a play of words.
Now to the first part, you seem to be saying that the holy men of old received revelation from God.
If so, what was revealed to them, the laws of Moses or the higher laws that Christ taught?

Yes they didn't realize, they were brought up to do and practice certain things which were evil as though they were good, it's kind of like blindness. If someone doesn't see something wrong as wrong they cant know that it is wrong. So the basis of my statement is that it was a heart problem not necessarily a head one.
E.g a person lies to another to get what they want, the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want so there mindset is that what they have done is right. So for them to realize they have to become aware of what they did that was wrong. So apart from perception that comes from intelligence we have revelation. So while we can know from our conscience and feelings that we have hurt someone at times we may not even be aware of it, speak less of knowing.

So can a person know something is wrong and be blind to it at the same time, yes because they are focused on the benefit. They are not ignorant. Like a person who knows the truth and bears false witness against another. They know they twisted the truth but they don't realize what they have done is evil because they justify on their standard of how it benefits them.

Realization is a person coming to terms and not denying that what they do is wrong.

God has one basic command which is love, be kind to others be good, don't be proud and envious and covetous be content. Adam and Eve were not content, and so over the years men because of their covetousness and lack of contentment killed, stole, like Cain killed Abel, and the like. The greed and desire to want more. Cain for instance was told by God that the desire in his heart was wrong, there was sin and he ignored it and ended up killing his brother. God told Noah he was going to flood the earth and for a 100+yrs Noah was said to not only build but also preach to his generation.

And to answer your question what was revealed to them? It was salvation the way back to God, from Noah's ark to Abraham's Isaac and the chosen nation Israel to the prophets the basis of the revelation was to reveal to men the wrong way they are going and the way back and the person who can bring them back, the son of God Jesus.

In the book of Job it says that God may cause sufferings to a man so as to speak to him and teach him the wrong of his ways, especially if such a man doesn't pay attention to the dreams given to him as warnings.

gohf:
Yes they didn't realize, they were brought up to do and practice certain things which were evil as though they were good, it's kind of like blindness. If someone doesn't see something wrong as wrong they cant know that it is wrong. So the basis of my statement is that it was a heart problem not necessarily a head one.
E.g a person lies to another to get what they want, the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want so there mindset is that what they have done is right. So for them to realize they have to become aware of what they did that was wrong. So apart from perception that comes from intelligence we have revelation. So while we can know from our conscience and feelings that we have hurt someone at times we may not even be aware of it, speak less of knowing.

So can a person know something is wrong and be blind to it at the same time, yes because they are focused on the benefit. They are not ignorant. Like a person who knows the truth and bears false witness against another. They know they twisted the truth but they don't realize what they have done is evil because they justify on their standard of how it benefits them.

Realization is a person coming to terms and not denying that what they do is wrong.

God has one basic command which is love, be kind to others be good, don't be proud and envious and covetous be content. Adam and Eve were not content, and so over the years men because of their covetousness and lack of contentment killed, stole, like Cain killed Abel, and the like. The greed and desire to want more. Cain for instance was told by God that the desire in his heart was wrong, there was sin and he ignored it and ended up killing his brother. God told Noah he was going to flood the earth and for a 100+yrs Noah was said to not only build but also preach to his generation.

And to answer your question what was revealed to them? It was salvation the way back to God, from Noah's ark to Abraham's Isaac and the chosen nation Israel to the prophets the basis of the revelation was to reveal to men the wrong way they are going and the way back and the person who can bring them back, the son of God Jesus.

In the book of Job it says that God may cause sufferings to a man so as to speak to him and teach him the wrong of his ways, especially if such a man doesn't pay attention to the dreams given to him as warnings.

Are you trying to be controversial? You say that you know you have done something wrong yet you are not aware of it? That statement makes no sense sir. To know something is to be aware of it.
Again, you speak about a heart problem and not a head one. Please explain?
Then you gave the example with lying and you said the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want.
I am yet to see an adult who doesn't know it is wrong to tell lies. Every time I have told lies, I was fully aware that I was in the wrong.

tctrills:
Are you trying to be controversial? You say that you know you have done something wrong yet you are not aware of it? That statement makes no sense sir. To know something is to be aware of it.
Again, you speak about a heart problem and not a head one. Please explain?
Then you gave the example with lying and you said the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want.
I am yet to see an adult who doesn't know it is wrong to tell lies. Every time I have told lies, I was fully aware that I was in the wrong.

not being controversial sir. Can't a person know yet pretend not to know, that's why men are liars deceiving themselves.

Paul writes they know in their hearts, yet those same hearts are very wicked as if blinded by their own greed.
Know something is wrong and knowing you have done something wrong are they the same, be honest with yourself. How many times have you admitted ah I have done something wrong.

You say to know something is to be aware of it, awareness is perception, understanding. Haven't you ever written an exam and later be like ah and I know this thing o, maybe because you didn't understand the question or you forgot.

Realization is like understanding, you may know something but you do not realize nor understand the full implications of it. Didn't Adam and Eve know they should not eat, why is it that after eating they realized their own stupidity.

Knowledge comes because a person is told or they heard, but realization is when you become aware or understand. Ever heard someone say I have heard I have heard yet they don't understand what they have heard.


Does it still make no sense to know something and yet not understand it?

Has your heart never told you you have done wrong or you felt you have done wrong but you don't understand exactly what you did wrong. Your conscience never pricked you before and until you see that what you have done is wrong you may never admit it to be wrong.

So knowledge being in someone is the same as intelligence given to them or a book given to you, if you don't realize it, it's because your eyes is closed to it. So you don't realize nor are you aware of what you have.

"Again, you speak about a heart problem and not a head one. Please explain?"

Let me use what you said about yourself, because if I go on about "I am yet to see an adult who doesn't know it is wrong to tell lies".
You are assuming everyone is like that, you haven't actually dealth with people that convince themselves that a lie is true, till they forget it was a lie in the first place so slowly they kill their conscience and their heart.

"Every time I have told lies, I was fully aware that I was in the wrong." Your case is better, you might find that strange but it is. You are aware because you realize and admit, you understand what you did.

"the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want."

Something is wrong because there is bad result of it
Something is right and good because it results in good

"So can a person know something is wrong and be blind to it at the same time,.."

So a person can know something is wrong because of how they feel inside of them and yet they are not aware of what it is.

There's this thing I call rationalization of evil, when you come across certain people and you tell them this you are doing is wrong and they don't admit, usually it's because they are not seeing that it is wrong. That's where the heart and head problem comes in.

When a person's mind defends and denies their own conscience and heart.

A new heart and a renewed mind. There is knowledge in the heart and knowledge in the head.

In their hearts like Paul said they show that they know what is right and wrong through their actions.

Now a person's mind processes who they decide to be, to refuse their conscience and heart and end up being foolish or to look and admit what it says. A fool says in their heart their is no God, because they deny and refuse to listen to the voice of reason within them.


When God makes something he instructs it to do good and that instruction is in you, expect the person because crafty chooses ignorance and the like. The Hebrews define the soul has emotions, feelings and intelligence and that's what Adam became and obviously humans in general now though they don't have the spirit of God, the wisdom of God in them. They still have the intelligence from God. Revelation comes to give instructions provide correction.

To say a person knows or has knowledge is to admit God formed us, and though we form in a womb, the original intent still remains. A person either becomes aware or blind to the instructions put in them.

Why do you think God judges the heart, because he put a conscience in everyone even before anyone becomes born again and has the Spirit of God in them.

Jesus made a statement anyone who does my Father's will can verify that my words are from Him.

Now this statement isn't about being educated to read a book, it's about how they react to their own hearts, to the intelligence the breath that is in them that will return back to God when they die.

So you see that those who react positively and struggle with their nature, meaning they are aware that what they do is wrong, they agree, they become more willing to go to Jesus. You know Jesus said my Father brings them to me.

God can write, He wrote the 10 commandments but He didn't write a whole book, Jesus also didn't write or give us a book, the Holy Spirit was given to teach us all things.


Honestly I hope you understand because will saying more help.

Okay how about this you realize you have done something wrong like lying because you still have a conscience and intact one, but then someone who doesn't even if they know, can you say they still have one? No, that doesn't mean they never had one, so though they know they can't realize it's wrong because what would help them do so, is probably lost and dead.