₦airaland Forum

This is a very serious question and should not be taken with levity whatsoever because everything in Islam rises and falls with this claim.

Let me reiterate the question once more to my beautiful Muslim readers here: If a lying, top-ranked spirit impersonates the angel Gabriel (Jubril) claiming that he is, in fact, angel Gabriel, the holy one sent from God, how would Muhammad tell the difference? Or what if the spirit that communicated with Muhammad had been sent by the devil to disrupt God's earthly government and is claiming to be God's, how would you know? Or what if the spirit is, in fact, sent (from God) as a lying spirit for other purposes?

If a man I had never seen before claims he is Donald Trump, how would I tell he is telling the truth or he is lying? Well, that would be easy peasy since I have seen Donald Trump's images and portraits on many occasions, but spirits might be virtually indistinguishable to humans, not just because we do not have senses that correctly identify them (maybe by their name as the case may be) independent of what the spirit says or claims he is, but for many reasons beyond us.

If a man comes forward on this thread claiming that he is Joshua Bidemi; well, how would I know that he is telling me the truth or he is lying irrespective of what his username or his previous comments says? Well, the truth is, I would not know. I would have to be under some "powers" sort of to correctly identify factual claims of this sorts. Maybe the more important question then is, how do we know that Muhammad isn't under some demonic influence to tell apart a factual information that cannot be known by the senses? If God or the devil did, in fact, possessed him to identify this angel, how would he or even us know who's doing the possession? even in this day and age, people get demon possessed a lot, quite a lot. What if he was demon possessed to correctly or incorrectly identify the angel?

A claim of revelation from a specific angel is a very, very, very tall claim.

If angel Gabriel does, in fact, appear to me right now as I type this, and says he is angel Gabriel, how would I know? To be quite frank, I would not know and neither would you. I would have to take him at his words, accepting in blind faith whatever he says about himself because there is no way to scrutinize or examine a metaphysical being or examine the claims they make. If he is lying I wouldn't know. If he is telling the truth, I wouldn't know. I would just have to believe whatever he says.

Believing whatever he says is not as important as who he is, in fact. We have to be cleared on who he is first before believing whatever he says since impersonation is quite a real possibility.

I would appreciate responses.

You see, a claim of revelation from a prophet is not enough because even the devil could reveal himself to whom he wants to deceive as is evident from demon possessed humans who do evil stuff at the behest of the devil.

Some throw themselves into the fire, into water; some eat sand, eat poo, and do other unthinkable things at the devil's command or under his influence. How can it be said that the spirit that possessed Muhammad is not one of them?

@OP, I understand what you are trying to do but I hope I am able to convince you to desist from this line of thought after reading my comment. This is going to be a long one, so get a chair .

1. Theological Evidence (Qur’an & Hadith)

The Qur’an explicitly states that the revelations Muhammad (PBUH) received were from God via Angel Gabriel not a lying spirit

Surah Al-Baqarah 2:97:

“Say, ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, it is he who has brought the Qur’an down upon your heart, O Muhammad, by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers.’

The Qur’an consistently affirms its divine origin:
Surah Al-Najm 53:3-4: “Nor does he (Muhammad) speak from his own inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.”

If the revelation had come from a lying spirit (Satan), the Qur’an would not have repeatedly condemned falsehood and deception. In fact, Surah Al-Haqqah 69:44-47 states that if Muhammad (PBUH) had fabricated anything about God, he would have been punished immediately.

2. Muhammad’s (PBUH) Character and Integrity

Before receiving revelation, Muhammad (PBUH) was known as Al-Amin (the Trustworthy) by his people. A person known for honesty and integrity would not suddenly fabricate divine claims.

Even his enemies admitted that he never lied. Abu Sufyan, a leader of the Quraysh who opposed Islam, was questioned by the Roman Emperor Heraclius about Muhammad’s honesty and admitted that Muhammad never lied.

3. The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards

The Qur’an’s teachings are deeply moral, advocating justice, kindness, and truthfulness. If a lying spirit inspired it, why would it command worship of the one true God and prohibit falsehood?

Unlike deceitful spirits that promote corruption and chaos, the Qur’an guides humanity towards righteousness, which aligns with divine revelation rather than deception.

4. The Transformative Impact of the Revelation

The Qur’an revolutionized Arabian society, abolishing practices like female infanticide, tribal vengeance, and economic exploitation. Falsehood does not produce a civilization based on justice, compassion, and learning.

The rapid spread of Islam and its lasting influence show the power of truth, as deceit does not lead to long-term positive change.

5. Biblical Precedents: Angel Gabriel’s Role in Revelation

Angel Gabriel (Jibreel) is a well-known messenger of God in the Bible, appearing to Mary (Luke 1:26-38) and Daniel (Daniel 9:21-23). If Gabriel was truly sent by God before, why would his role be questioned in Islam?

Conclusion

All the evidence scriptural, historical, moral, and logical supports that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation from God through Angel Gabriel, not a lying spirit. His character, the Qur’an’s teachings, and the transformative impact of his message affirm its divine origin.

harqinhola:
@OP, I understand what you are trying to do but I hope I am able to convince you to desist from this line of thought after reading my comment. This is going to be a long one, so get a chair .

1. Theological Evidence (Qur’an & Hadith)

The Qur’an explicitly states that the revelations Muhammad (PBUH) received were from God via Angel Gabriel not a lying spirit

Surah Al-Baqarah 2:97:

“Say, ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, it is he who has brought the Qur’an down upon your heart, O Muhammad, by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers.’

The Qur’an consistently affirms its divine origin:
Surah Al-Najm 53:3-4: “Nor does he (Muhammad) speak from his own inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.”

If the revelation had come from a lying spirit (Satan), the Qur’an would not have repeatedly condemned falsehood and deception. In fact, Surah Al-Haqqah 69:44-47 states that if Muhammad (PBUH) had fabricated anything about God, he would have been punished immediately.

2. Muhammad’s (PBUH) Character and Integrity

Before receiving revelation, Muhammad (PBUH) was known as Al-Amin (the Trustworthy) by his people. A person known for honesty and integrity would not suddenly fabricate divine claims.

Even his enemies admitted that he never lied. Abu Sufyan, a leader of the Quraysh who opposed Islam, was questioned by the Roman Emperor Heraclius about Muhammad’s honesty and admitted that Muhammad never lied.

3. The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards

The Qur’an’s teachings are deeply moral, advocating justice, kindness, and truthfulness. If a lying spirit inspired it, why would it command worship of the one true God and prohibit falsehood?

Unlike deceitful spirits that promote corruption and chaos, the Qur’an guides humanity towards righteousness, which aligns with divine revelation rather than deception.

4. The Transformative Impact of the Revelation

The Qur’an revolutionized Arabian society, abolishing practices like female infanticide, tribal vengeance, and economic exploitation. Falsehood does not produce a civilization based on justice, compassion, and learning.

The rapid spread of Islam and its lasting influence show the power of truth, as deceit does not lead to long-term positive change.

5. Biblical Precedents: Angel Gabriel’s Role in Revelation

Angel Gabriel (Jibreel) is a well-known messenger of God in the Bible, appearing to Mary (Luke 1:26-38) and Daniel (Daniel 9:21-23). If Gabriel was truly sent by God before, why would his role be questioned in Islam?

Conclusion

All the evidence scriptural, historical, moral, and logical supports that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation from God through Angel Gabriel, not a lying spirit. His character, the Qur’an’s teachings, and the transformative impact of his message affirm its divine origin.

Using civilization, justice and compassion and Islam in one sentence is a travesty.

In the Bible God declared Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob {Exodus 3:15} no nation got information from God without the connection of Israel (Jacob)
So it's impossible for anyone from any other nation to receive any information from this same God unless such a person is connected in one way or another to Israel!

Baldwretch:
This is a very serious question and should not be taken with levity whatsoever because everything in Islam rises and falls with this claim.

Let me reiterate the question once more to my beautiful Muslim readers here: If a lying, top-ranked spirit impersonates the angel Gabriel (Jubril) claiming that he is, in fact, angel Gabriel, the holy one sent from God, how would Muhammad tell the difference? Or what if the spirit that communicated with Muhammad had been sent by the devil to disrupt God's earthly government and is claiming to be God's, how would you know? Or what if the spirit is, in fact, sent (from God) as a lying spirit for other purposes?

If a man I had never seen before claims he is Donald Trump, how would I tell he is telling the truth or he is lying? Well, that would be easy peasy since I have seen Donald Trump's images and portraits on many occasions, but spirits might be virtually indistinguishable to humans, not just because we do not have senses that correctly identify them (maybe by their name as the case may be) independent of what the spirit says or claims he is, but for many reasons beyond us.

If a man comes forward on this thread claiming that he is Joshua Bidemi; well, how would I know that he is telling me the truth or he is lying irrespective of what his username or his previous comments says? Well, the truth is, I would not know. I would have to be under some "powers" sort of to correctly identify factual claims of this sorts. Maybe the more important question then is, how do we know that Muhammad isn't under some demonic influence to tell apart a factual information that cannot be known by the senses? If God or the devil did, in fact, possessed him to identify this angel, how would he or even us know who's doing the possession? even in this day and age, people get demon possessed a lot, quite a lot. What if he was demon possessed to correctly or incorrectly identify the angel?

A claim of revelation from a specific angel is a very, very, very tall claim.

If angel Gabriel does, in fact, appear to me right now as I type this, and says he is angel Gabriel, how would I know? To be quite frank, I would not know and neither would you. I would have to take him at his words, accepting in blind faith whatever he says about himself because there is no way to scrutinize or examine a metaphysical being or examine the claims they make. If he is lying I wouldn't know. If he is telling the truth, I wouldn't know. I would just have to believe whatever he says.

Believing whatever he says is not as important as who he is, in fact. We have to be cleared on who he is first before believing whatever he says since impersonation is quite a real possibility.

I would appreciate responses.

You see, a claim of revelation from a prophet is not enough because even the devil could reveal himself to whom he wants to deceive as is evident from demon possessed humans who do evil stuff at the behest of the devil.

Some throw themselves into the fire, into water; some eat sand, eat poo, and do other unthinkable things at the devil's command or under his influence. How can it be said that the spirit that possessed Muhammad is not one of them?

I believe in God, and you question is truly a weighty one but may I ask you, have you ever read the contents of "Muhammad's revelation" I for one haven't, but I believe it is from the content that one may see if it's false or not. Does it contradict what Gabriel said to Daniel, Zecharias and Mary?

One thing I do not agree with that I have heard from some Muslim interpreters of their scriptures is that Muhammad is the last prophet or that he is the promised comforter from Jesus.

I believe that if indeed Muhammad received a divine revelation from God it is also highly possible for men to also corrupt such said prophecy.

And I would like harqinhola, to comment on this as well. I do consider his response if truly accurate as I do not know for sure, but if indeed Muhammad was such a man it would be unlikely for him to lie about such an incident as what was he to gain. Well he did conquer nations which is very opposite from every other prophet recorded in the scriptures.

Now "The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards" is a valid point but such would also be the case for Buddhism as well shouldn't it, from the little I have heard about it. Justice, kindness and the like. Preaching morals as been a norm in many religions but actually achieving it, ah well.

I know there are those who purposely try to paint Muslims in a bad light, but since the question is focused on if the spirit that spoke to Muhammad was from God or from the devil, I believe we can only answer it this way. What was the purpose of the revelation?

Was it praising Muhammad or was it saying that only God can save us as long as we obey Him? And does obeying God entail we being wicked to others and doing evil as an excuse for our religious beliefs.

Abraham called the first prophet in the Bible and the focus of the revelation through him was about the promise of salvation from God.

Now I also heard that the Quran states that God already forgave Adam and Eve therefore there's no need for any reconciliation back to God, maybe not exactly written that way but some teach that as well. Now if forgiveness was already given, it nullifies the very purpose of the promise given to Abraham about blessing all the nations through his seed.

Now I do not put it past the devil to fabricate a very brilliant very detailed lie that removes the one thing that truly brings salvation, God's word and promise. Devil is capable of making people jump off roof tops based on misunderstanding Psalm 91.


There as to be an explanation from the revelation that reveal God's plan for salvation of which we can say it is genuinely from God or not.

harqinhola:
@OP, I understand what you are trying to do but I hope I am able to convince you to desist from this line of thought after reading my comment. This is going to be a long one, so get a chair .

1. Theological Evidence (Qur’an & Hadith)

The Qur’an explicitly states that the revelations Muhammad (PBUH) received were from God via Angel Gabriel not a lying spirit

Surah Al-Baqarah 2:97:

“Say, ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, it is he who has brought the Qur’an down upon your heart, O Muhammad, by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers.’

The Qur’an consistently affirms its divine origin:
Surah Al-Najm 53:3-4: “Nor does he (Muhammad) speak from his own inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.”

If the revelation had come from a lying spirit (Satan), the Qur’an would not have repeatedly condemned falsehood and deception. In fact, Surah Al-Haqqah 69:44-47 states that if Muhammad (PBUH) had fabricated anything about God, he would have been punished immediately.

2. Muhammad’s (PBUH) Character and Integrity

Before receiving revelation, Muhammad (PBUH) was known as Al-Amin (the Trustworthy) by his people. A person known for honesty and integrity would not suddenly fabricate divine claims.

Even his enemies admitted that he never lied. Abu Sufyan, a leader of the Quraysh who opposed Islam, was questioned by the Roman Emperor Heraclius about Muhammad’s honesty and admitted that Muhammad never lied.

3. The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards

The Qur’an’s teachings are deeply moral, advocating justice, kindness, and truthfulness. If a lying spirit inspired it, why would it command worship of the one true God and prohibit falsehood?

Unlike deceitful spirits that promote corruption and chaos, the Qur’an guides humanity towards righteousness, which aligns with divine revelation rather than deception.

4. The Transformative Impact of the Revelation

The Qur’an revolutionized Arabian society, abolishing practices like female infanticide, tribal vengeance, and economic exploitation. Falsehood does not produce a civilization based on justice, compassion, and learning.

The rapid spread of Islam and its lasting influence show the power of truth, as deceit does not lead to long-term positive change.

5. Biblical Precedents: Angel Gabriel’s Role in Revelation

Angel Gabriel (Jibreel) is a well-known messenger of God in the Bible, appearing to Mary (Luke 1:26-38) and Daniel (Daniel 9:21-23). If Gabriel was truly sent by God before, why would his role be questioned in Islam?

Conclusion

All the evidence scriptural, historical, moral, and logical supports that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation from God through Angel Gabriel, not a lying spirit. His character, the Qur’an’s teachings, and the transformative impact of his message affirm its divine origin.

Sorry, for some reasons beyond me, my response took longer than normal because I have been offline since I last made this post. Apologies! Give it to me woto-woto!

A liar repeatedly reminds his listeners that what he is saying is the truth. Try to cross-examine a cheat and a liar and you would sooner find out that he's repeatedly reinforcing the false idea that all the facts on ground as presented by himself is true. It's all smoke and mirrors. It happens all the time. Unfortunately, that is not very much different from what we have here.

You start off your argument based on what the Quran says about itself. Have you ever met a vendor who would honestly admit that his wares is very terrible, and below quality? Not very many! Most men think others are bad and vile, but themselves. Why should Muhammad be any different?

How very convenient to use the Quran to prove that it is God who inspired Muhammad to write it! How very convenient to use the words of Muhammad to prove that it is God who possessed him in the writing of it! I have to ask you again though, is that how you argue to the truth of this question I asked? Namely, that the spirit that possessed Muhammad is of God and not from other sources?

You are not appealing to the truth; your appeal is more to the claims the Quran makes about itself which is independent of the truth. Experience should teach you that claims are not necessarily true and even your claims are very unfalsifiable. Very, very circular argument.

You state a premise. Draw an argument that is independent of the premise and then use the premise to prove that your argument is true. Which kind thing be this na!


Could we verify that a particular angel is of God or is of the Devil by the metaphysical powers or influence surrounding how they were revealed to us? NO! If the devil sent his entourage, a company of angels, he would also exercise a mighty metaphysical grip upon you that is just enough to make you believe whatever.

Could we know whether the angel before us is of God or is of the devil by the great powers that enabled us to identify them? NO! Metaphysical influence can be terribly strong and not find its source in God. Just because you find yourself grappling under great powers does not mean it is necessarily of God. The Devil has great powers too. When God performed mighty miracles before Pharaoh shortly before he was destroyed, Pharaoh's magicians did the same. Could you identify God's snake or the Devil's snake as they lay on the floor? NO! Are both of divine origin? YES! Is it easy to mistake one for the other? Yes. Why? They both exercise metaphysical influence. I could go on and on with countless examples.

The Quran's teaching are not deeply moral. They are not. They are at variance with the bible. They tend to contradict what moral codes has been laid down for God's worshipers as it pertains to our obligations to God. And besides, morality is worthless if God is not the source of the morality. Two folks might agree on certain etiquette for different reasons. It is a common phenomenon. For instance, the Quran seems to agree with the Torah on one ceremonially unclean animal, the pig. Both scriptures agree, but for different reasons. It seems to me that the Quran forbids the pig due to its perceived uncleanliness (the pig, you know what I mean) whereas the Bible forbids it for an entirely different reasons - not chewing the cud.

Here, you can see that both scripture agree but they do not really agree.

What is preventing men from wife-sharing if the Quran says - yes, a man can re-marry his divorced wife even if she had remarried whereas the bible forbids it. It seems to me that the justice, kindness, and ethical standards you are talking about is all in your head. This is chaos-violence pro-max. I created a thread on God's order and counter order using two creatures - the sea creatures and the camel. No Muslim has been able to refute me. Maybe you can do that in the thread here since you think God is a deity who contradicts himself.

The Quran would definitely command worship of a monotheistic, sovereign God because the human psyche naturally frowns at the idea of multiple gods or the idea of the gods having a son. Our psyche frowns at that. We cherish the idea of a powerful, all-wise, omniscient deity. This cringey attitude from the Quran is very much expected just as it cringes at the consumption of pork (pig meat). That doesn't make it true, though. The truth is independent of what we think. It's just like sports lovers who would tell you that the losing team, Team Y, would not want to lose the return leg of a football match because they lost the first leg. However, what they want is irrelevant and doesn't conclusively determine the outcome of the game. Even if the Quran forbids falsehood, it is for different reason than the God of the bible.The Quran might forbid falsehood because it creates a rippling disturbance in the community; meanwhile, the Jewish God would do same for different reasons.

Spreading of Islam, you say. Lol. How many people have to believe a lie for it to become true? One hundred, or maybe one thousand, a million, a trillion? It doesn't matter that many people believe it or spread its claims. All of them can still be guilty of spreading the wrong religion. Appealing to popularity is not so wise.

Sorry, I could not quote your write-up piece by piece because I am running out of time.

Baldwretch:
Sorry, for some reasons beyond me, my response took longer than normal because I have been offline since I last made this post. Apologies! Give it to me woto-woto!

A liar repeatedly reminds his listeners that what he is saying is the truth. Try to cross-examine a cheat and a liar and you would sooner find out that he's repeatedly reinforcing the false idea that all the facts on ground as presented by himself is true. It's all smoke and mirrors. It happens all the time. Unfortunately, that is not very much different from what we have here.

You start off your argument based on what the Quran says about itself. Have you ever met a vendor who would honestly admit that his wares is very terrible, and below quality? Not very many! Most men think others are bad and vile, but themselves. Why should Muhammad be any different?

How very convenient to use the Quran to prove that it is God who inspired Muhammad to write it! How very convenient to use the words of Muhammad to prove that it is God who possessed him in the writing of it! I have to ask you again though, is that how you argue to the truth of this question I asked? Namely, that the spirit that possessed Muhammad is of God and not from other sources?

You are not appealing to the truth; your appeal is more to the claims the Quran makes about itself which is independent of the truth. Experience should teach you that claims are not necessarily true and even your claims are very unfalsifiable. Very, very circular argument.

You state a premise. Draw an argument that is independent of the premise and then use the premise to prove that your argument is true. Which kind thing be this na!


Could we verify that a particular angel is of God or is of the Devil by the metaphysical powers or influence surrounding how they were revealed to us? NO! If the devil sent his entourage, a company of angels, he would also exercise a mighty metaphysical grip upon you that is just enough to make you believe whatever.

Could we know whether the angel before us is of God or is of the devil by the great powers that enabled us to identify them? NO! Metaphysical influence can be terribly strong and not find its source in God. Just because you find yourself grappling under great powers does not mean it is necessarily of God. The Devil has great powers too. When God performed mighty miracles before Pharaoh shortly before he was destroyed, Pharaoh's magicians did the same. Could you identify God's snake or the Devil's snake as they lay on the floor? NO! Are both of divine origin? YES! Is it easy to mistake one for the other? Yes. Why? They both exercise metaphysical influence. I could go on and on with countless examples.

The Quran's teaching are not deeply moral. They are not. They are at variance with the bible. They tend to contradict what moral codes has been laid down for God's worshipers as it pertains to our obligations to God. And besides, morality is worthless if God is not the source of the morality. Two folks might agree on certain etiquette for different reasons. It is a common phenomenon. For instance, the Quran seems to agree with the Torah on one ceremonially unclean animal, the pig. Both scriptures agree, but for different reasons. It seems to me that the Quran forbids the pig due to its perceived uncleanliness (the pig, you know what I mean) whereas the Bible forbids it for an entirely different reasons - not chewing the cud.

Here, you can see that both scripture agree but they do not really agree.

What is preventing men from wife-sharing if the Quran says - yes, a man can re-marry his divorced wife even if she had remarried whereas the bible forbids it. It seems to me that the justice, kindness, and ethical standards you are talking about is all in your head. This is chaos-violence pro-max. I created a thread on God's order and counter order using two creatures - the sea creatures and the camel. No Muslim has been able to refute me. Maybe you can do that in the thread here since you think God is a deity who contradicts himself.

The Quran would definitely command worship of a monotheistic, sovereign God because the human psyche naturally frowns at the idea of multiple gods or the idea of the gods having a son. Our psyche frowns at that. We cherish the idea of a powerful, all-wise, omniscient deity. This cringey attitude from the Quran is very much expected just as it cringes at the consumption of pork (pig meat). That doesn't make it true, though. The truth is independent of what we think. It's just like sports lovers who would tell you that the losing team, Team Y, would not want to lose the return leg of a football match because they lost the first leg. However, what they want is irrelevant and doesn't conclusively determine the outcome of the game. Even if the Quran forbids falsehood, it is for different reason than the God of the bible.The Quran might forbid falsehood because it creates a rippling disturbance in the community; meanwhile, the Jewish God would do same for different reasons.

Spreading of Islam, you say. Lol. How many people have to believe a lie for it to become true? One hundred, or maybe one thousand, a million, a trillion? It doesn't matter that many people believe it or spread its claims. All of them can still be guilty of spreading the wrong religion. Appealing to popularity is not so wise.

Sorry, I could not quote your write-up piece by piece because I am running out of time.

You have done well, nice write up.

There's no empirical way for them to conclude but looking at the tales of how Gabriel used to grip Muhammad it's in stark contrast to the Gabriel of the bible.

The identity of both are truly different.

And to add to the confusion some of them also say Gabriel is the spirit(Holy spirit)🤕.

Infact it's a mumbo jumbo of lies and pervasion of Jewish scripture and text

Baldwretch:
Sorry, for some reasons beyond me, my response took longer than normal because I have been offline since I last made this post. Apologies! Give it to me woto-woto!

A liar repeatedly reminds his listeners that what he is saying is the truth. Try to cross-examine a cheat and a liar and you would sooner find out that he's repeatedly reinforcing the false idea that all the facts on ground as presented by himself is true. It's all smoke and mirrors. It happens all the time. Unfortunately, that is not very much different from what we have here.

You start off your argument based on what the Quran says about itself. Have you ever met a vendor who would honestly admit that his wares is very terrible, and below quality? Not very many! Most men think others are bad and vile, but themselves. Why should Muhammad be any different?

How very convenient to use the Quran to prove that it is God who inspired Muhammad to write it! How very convenient to use the words of Muhammad to prove that it is God who possessed him in the writing of it! I have to ask you again though, is that how you argue to the truth of this question I asked? Namely, that the spirit that possessed Muhammad is of God and not from other sources?

You are not appealing to the truth; your appeal is more to the claims the Quran makes about itself which is independent of the truth. Experience should teach you that claims are not necessarily true and even your claims are very unfalsifiable. Very, very circular argument.

You state a premise. Draw an argument that is independent of the premise and then use the premise to prove that your argument is true. Which kind thing be this na!


Could we verify that a particular angel is of God or is of the Devil by the metaphysical powers or influence surrounding how they were revealed to us? NO! If the devil sent his entourage, a company of angels, he would also exercise a mighty metaphysical grip upon you that is just enough to make you believe whatever.

Could we know whether the angel before us is of God or is of the devil by the great powers that enabled us to identify them? NO! Metaphysical influence can be terribly strong and not find its source in God. Just because you find yourself grappling under great powers does not mean it is necessarily of God. The Devil has great powers too. When God performed mighty miracles before Pharaoh shortly before he was destroyed, Pharaoh's magicians did the same. Could you identify God's snake or the Devil's snake as they lay on the floor? NO! Are both of divine origin? YES! Is it easy to mistake one for the other? Yes. Why? They both exercise metaphysical influence. I could go on and on with countless examples.

The Quran's teaching are not deeply moral. They are not. They are at variance with the bible. They tend to contradict what moral codes has been laid down for God's worshipers as it pertains to our obligations to God. And besides, morality is worthless if God is not the source of the morality. Two folks might agree on certain etiquette for different reasons. It is a common phenomenon. For instance, the Quran seems to agree with the Torah on one ceremonially unclean animal, the pig. Both scriptures agree, but for different reasons. It seems to me that the Quran forbids the pig due to its perceived uncleanliness (the pig, you know what I mean) whereas the Bible forbids it for an entirely different reasons - not chewing the cud.

Here, you can see that both scripture agree but they do not really agree.

What is preventing men from wife-sharing if the Quran says - yes, a man can re-marry his divorced wife even if she had remarried whereas the bible forbids it. It seems to me that the justice, kindness, and ethical standards you are talking about is all in your head. This is chaos-violence pro-max. I created a thread on God's order and counter order using two creatures - the sea creatures and the camel. No Muslim has been able to refute me. Maybe you can do that in the thread here since you think God is a deity who contradicts himself.

The Quran would definitely command worship of a monotheistic, sovereign God because the human psyche naturally frowns at the idea of multiple gods or the idea of the gods having a son. Our psyche frowns at that. We cherish the idea of a powerful, all-wise, omniscient deity. This cringey attitude from the Quran is very much expected just as it cringes at the consumption of pork (pig meat). That doesn't make it true, though. The truth is independent of what we think. It's just like sports lovers who would tell you that the losing team, Team Y, would not want to lose the return leg of a football match because they lost the first leg. However, what they want is irrelevant and doesn't conclusively determine the outcome of the game. Even if the Quran forbids falsehood, it is for different reason than the God of the bible.The Quran might forbid falsehood because it creates a rippling disturbance in the community; meanwhile, the Jewish God would do same for different reasons.

Spreading of Islam, you say. Lol. How many people have to believe a lie for it to become true? One hundred, or maybe one thousand, a million, a trillion? It doesn't matter that many people believe it or spread its claims. All of them can still be guilty of spreading the wrong religion. Appealing to popularity is not so wise.

Sorry, I could not quote your write-up piece by piece because I am running out of time.

The Qur'an serves not just as a religious scripture but also as a deep well of moral guidance for its adherents. Its teachings emphasize key virtues such as justice, honesty, compassion, humility, patience, gratitude, forgiveness, charity, modesty, and the importance of refraining from slander, all of which play a crucial role in shaping the personal and social behavior of a believer.

Quran 5:8:
O believers! Stand firm for Allah and bear true testimony. Do not let the hatred of a people lead you to injustice. Be just! That is closer to righteousness. And be mindful of Allah. Surely Allah is All-Aware of what you do.

Interesting you turn your bald retching to questioning if Angel Gabriel;Jibril a. s, who brought the Quran to Muhammad pbuh being an impostor. How would you rather authenticate his identity?

Have you yourself actually ever seen an angel?

Ohyoudidnt:
Quran 5:8:
O believers! Stand firm for Allah and bear true testimony. Do not let the hatred of a people lead you to injustice. Be just! That is closer to righteousness. And be mindful of Allah. Surely Allah is All-Aware of what you do.

Interesting you turn your bald retching to questioning if Angel Gabriel;Jibril a. s, who brought the Quran to Muhammad pbuh being an impostor. How would you rather authenticate his identity?

Have you yourself actually ever seen an angel?

I am not actually questioning how Muhammad figured the angel's identity as Gabriel; I am asking how he could tell that the angel who appeared to him is from God and not from other sources. These are two different, but inter-related questions.

Granted, an angel appeared to him; granted, the angel identified his name as Gabriel; granted, there was a metaphysical influence around the events that indicates that the experience is more than natural, but how do we know that this angel and the experience he had is of God and not from the Devil, or from other sources? An impostor spirit claiming to emanate from and speak for the one true God with a terribly strong metaphysical influence is possible.

That is the state of the question.

Let me use an example. When the angel of God appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush; the bush was burning but was never burning up. Moses was like - wow, what in the world is going on here. How can a bush be burning for this long and not get burnt up, so he goes over and takes a very good look. Turns out, it is of God.

Ah w,ait a seconds, did I just say that it is of God? Well, hold on for a minute. It might not be. Suppose someone who wasn't there when the events happened or suppose some who witnessed the event turn around and claims that the bush did in fact burn and never got burnt up as alleged. Suppose the person's conclusions on the events is polar opposite to Moses' conclusions that the metaphysical influence on Moses and all the circumstances surrounding the events are from the Devil, not from God. It happened yes, but it is just not from God.

Would it be a reasonable and credible arguments he's making? Yes, it would be.

But why? To some degrees, the Devil is also able to replicate the same. So how could we convince this doubting Thomas that the events and the metaphysical influence and all that as experienced by Moses the servant of God is from God and not from the Devil?

That is the state of the question.

You see the thing is, no matter how much evil spirits like to wander and disrupt the divine government, they are still under God's authority and have been restrained from doing certain things. I would like to think that it is not just that they have been restrained, but they are incapable, by virtue of God's overreaching power, of doing certain things they would naturally want to do.

Do evil spirits exist? YES! But if an evil spirit wants to appear to maybe thousands or millions today as God did before the sight of all the Israelite, would he be able to accomplish or replicate the same? NO! Why not? He doesn't have that authority. God is still on the throne and he very much restrains them.

If Muhammad claims that an angel from God appeared to him with strong metaphysical influence; he might be right and he might be wrong, we would need more than his claims to believe. This spirit would have to convince not just him but us by the authority he spirit possess. The spirit would have to prove the authority he possess by appearing, in part, to some of us (or to some of the people who lived in Arabia during the time of Muhammad).

If the devil or his angels wanted to appear to all of us or to all Nigerians today, they couldn't. They do not have such authority!

Only God with the ultimate authority over everyone including the devil is able to do that. God is also able to commute some of those powers to his angels. The devil is absolutely unable to. He has been stripped of this power. No evil spirit or spirit from other sources posses that authority.

You see where I am going: only Muhammad saw the angel Gabriel. Only Muhammad came under his metaphysical influence. Only Muhammad! It's only Muhammad!

If that doubting Thomas doubted the theophany, the Burning Bush that I mentioned earlier, Moses could just say, okay your skepticism is justified. Wait. Just be patient. Don't worry. You would see the glory of God with your own two korokoro eyes and then you'd believe.

In the book of Surah Al-Torah chapter 1 verse 1 and chapter 25, 72, and 1000 of the holy Quran of that Surah, in my own translation, the New Living Translation of the holy Quran, it says:

And the glory of the Lord appeared to all the Israelite as they grumbled in their tents.

In another Surah, Surah Al-Exodus, it says,

To the Israelite at the bottom of the mountain, the glory of the Lord appear like glittering fire while the summit appears like gleaming amber.

There are just so many Surahs that says that God proved himself or his angels for other people to witness in the physical plain besides Moses indicating his absolute authority. That is how we differentiate the good from the bad, the righteous from the unrighteous, by the authority they possess. Not necessarily by the powers they exercise because (in that department) we do not have the ability to conclusively tell the difference. I wish I could meet you in person and talk sense into our head. Maybe, just maybe, if you are sincere you would renounce Islam and do a deeper introspection.

Ohyoudidnt:
The Qur'an serves not just as a religious scripture but also as a deep well of moral guidance for its adherents. Its teachings emphasize key virtues such as justice, honesty, compassion, humility, patience, gratitude, forgiveness, charity, modesty, and the importance of refraining from slander, all of which play a crucial role in shaping the personal and social behavior of a believer.

Unfortunately, all of these attributes you mentioned do not indicate conclusively that God is the source. Contrary to what many think, the devil is not terribly bad who wants nothing but bloodshed, murder, thievery, slander, and all sorts of vices, unhinged and unabated. He could make demands of these and even more from those who might believe in him for different reasons than God's, for different purposes, to different ends, and if he would be the authority on the subject. It all boil down to authority wars. Doing what you think is right because "He said so" is far more important than doing the "right thing." If a man would come under metaphysical influence that is not of God, all of these demands and more would be demanded, with absolute strictness in the details, provided it is done because of him. The idea of a depraved, degenerate deity that commands and allows all sorts of vices and crimes have never been a human idea. It only exist in the imagination.

harqinhola:
@OP, I understand what you are trying to do but I hope I am able to convince you to desist from this line of thought after reading my comment. This is going to be a long one, so get a chair .

I will tell you unapologetically that you have swallowed up deception line hook and sinker. This is what you want to believe and is not necessarily the truth.

harqinhola:
1. Theological Evidence (Qur’an & Hadith)

The Qur’an explicitly states that the revelations Muhammad (PBUH) received were from God via Angel Gabriel not a lying spirit

Surah Al-Baqarah 2:97:

“Say, ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, it is he who has brought the Qur’an down upon your heart, O Muhammad, by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers.’

The Qur’an consistently affirms its divine origin:
Surah Al-Najm 53:3-4: “Nor does he (Muhammad) speak from his own inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.”

If the revelation had come from a lying spirit (Satan), the Qur’an would not have repeatedly condemned falsehood and deception. In fact, Surah Al-Haqqah 69:44-47 states that if Muhammad (PBUH) had fabricated anything about God, he would have been punished immediately.

This is what is called circular reasoning.
Mohammed claims he saw angel Gabriel, he claimed his writing (the Qur'an) is from angel Gabriel.
Tell me, how can this be a proof?

Secondly,
1. Can you show us anyone else who can attest to the fact that an Angel spoke to Mohammed?
2. Did this Angel ever once introduced himself to Mohammed as Angel Gabriel?
3. Is it true that Angel Gabriel has 600 wings (not 600 feathers)?

harqinhola:
2. Muhammad’s (PBUH) Character and Integrity

Before receiving revelation, Muhammad (PBUH) was known as Al-Amin (the Trustworthy) by his people. A person known for honesty and integrity would not suddenly fabricate divine claims.

Even his enemies admitted that he never lied. Abu Sufyan, a leader of the Quraysh who opposed Islam, was questioned by the Roman Emperor Heraclius about Muhammad’s honesty and admitted that Muhammad never lied.

1. Will you call any Muslim man who enters the house of a married Muslim man when he is not at home trustworthy?
2. Will you call a married Muslim man who have sex with the house girl of his wife trustworthy (especially when the wife is at home nor in agreement with him?
3. Do you consider a person who can tell lies in the name of Taqqiya trustworthy?

harqinhola:
3. The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards

The Qur’an’s teachings are deeply moral, advocating justice, kindness, and truthfulness. If a lying spirit inspired it, why would it command worship of the one true God and prohibit falsehood?

Unlike deceitful spirits that promote corruption and chaos, the Qur’an guides humanity towards righteousness, which aligns with divine revelation rather than deception.

1. Would you consider a leader who allows Mutah (Prostitution) for his followers a symbol of morality?
2. Do you think a leader who was accused of illegally taking a red underwear from the war booty ethical
3. Would you consider it a betrayal of a leader who found refuge with Christians when Meccans were after his life but when he ultimately triumph over them he says Christians must be forced to Pay Jizyah in other to live?

harqinhola:
4. The Transformative Impact of the Revelation

The Qur’an revolutionized Arabian society, abolishing practices like female infanticide, tribal vengeance, and economic exploitation. Falsehood does not produce a civilization based on justice, compassion, and learning.

The rapid spread of Islam and its lasting influence show the power of truth, as deceit does not lead to long-term positive change.

1. Don't you consider that the transformative power in Islam is that which is raising Terrorists and Suicide killers all over the world?
2. Is this transformative power in Islam what has caused the Sunni-Shia divide to which they have fought to kill one another over the ages?

harqinhola:
5. Biblical Precedents: Angel Gabriel’s Role in Revelation

Angel Gabriel (Jibreel) is a well-known messenger of God in the Bible, appearing to Mary (Luke 1:26-38) and Daniel (Daniel 9:21-23). If Gabriel was truly sent by God before, why would his role be questioned in Islam?

Conclusion

All the evidence scriptural, historical, moral, and logical supports that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation from God through Angel Gabriel, not a lying spirit. His character, the Qur’an’s teachings, and the transformative impact of his message affirm its divine origin.

Indeed Angel Gabriel appears a few times in the Bible BUT he is extremely different from the Angel Jibril of Mohammed.

1. Every time Gabriel appears to people in the Bible, he appears as a man and not an angel with 600 wings
2. Every time Gabriel appears to People in the Bible he says "Peace be to you!" or "Do not be Afraid!". This is because, even though he appears as a man, there is something frightening about his presence.

Did Jibril say "Peace be to you" to Mohammed when he met with him?
3. The story of An Angel squeezing Mohammed has no resemblance in any of the scriptures of the Jews or Christians.

4. The description of Jibril by Mohammed is a bundle of contradictions and impossibilities.
How many wings (not feathers ) has Gabriel?
How tall is Gabriel?




Finally, there is no single time when Gabriel appeared to people that he wasn't introduced.
Who told Mohammed that the personage that appeared to him was Gabriel?

Ohyoudidnt:
The Qur'an serves not just as a religious scripture but also as a deep well of moral guidance for its adherents. Its teachings emphasize key virtues such as justice, honesty, compassion, humility, patience, gratitude, forgiveness, charity, modesty, and the importance of refraining from slander, all of which play a crucial role in shaping the personal and social behavior of a believer.
Quran 5:8:
O believers! Stand firm for Allah and bear true testimony. Do not let the hatred of a people lead you to injustice. Be just! That is closer to righteousness. And be mindful of Allah. Surely Allah is All-Aware of what you do.

Here in quote are what Buddhists Believe

The Five Precepts
-Not killing any living thing, including animals
-Not stealing or taking what isn't yours
-Not misusing the senses or having too much sensual pleasure
-Not lying or gossiping about others
-Not misusing alcohol or drugs

The Noble Eightfold Path
Right understanding, Right thought, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, and Right concentration.

Buddhist truth for living
-Everything in life is impermanent and always changing
-A life based on possessing things or people doesn't make you happy
-There is no eternal, unchanging soul

Are these mostly bad virtues to have?
Are these from God?
The fact that a religion serve as a deep well of moral guidance for its adherents does not mean that it is from God

Ohyoudidnt:
Interesting you turn your bald retching to questioning if Angel Gabriel;Jibril a. s, who brought the Quran to Muhammad pbuh being an impostor. How would you rather authenticate his identity?

Have you yourself actually ever seen an angel?

Did Anyone other that Muhammad see Jibril in his lifetime?
Did Jibril ever once introduce himself to Mohammed?
Do you no any other prophet that receives revelation like Mohammed?

How can we be sure that Jibril is not Dihya bin Khalifa?



If the hadith below is true
mishkat:3895
He reported God’s Messenger as saying, “The bell is the devil’s pipes.”
OR
Riyad as-Salihin 1691
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The bell is one of the musical instruments of Satan."

Can you explain why this Jibril speaks with the instrument of satan from the hadith below?
Sunan an-Nasa'i 933
It was narrated that Aishah said:
"Al-Harith bin Hisham asked the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): 'How does the Revelation come to you?' He said: 'Like the ringing of a bell, and when it departs I remember what he (the Angel) said, and this is the hardest on me. And sometimes he (the Angel) comes to me in the form of a man and gives it to me.






There is one more disturbing fact which any Christian would see as an evidence of demonic possession in Mohammed

Sahih Muslim 1180a
Ya'la b. Umayya reported on the authority of his father (Allah be pleased with them) that a person came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as he was at Ji'rana and he (the person) had been putting on a cloak which was perfumed, or he (the narrator) said:
There was a trace of yellowness on it. He said (to the Holy Prophet): What do you command me to do during my Umra? (It was at this juncture) that the revelation came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and he was covered with a cloth, and Ya'la said: Would that I see revelation coming to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Would it please you to see the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) receiving the revelations 'Umar lifted a corner of the cloth and I looked at him and he was emitting a sound of snorting. He (the narrator) said: I thought it was the sound of a camel. When he was relieved of this he said: Where is he who asked about Umra? When the person came, the Prophet (ﷺ) said: Wash out the trace of yellowness, or he said: the trace of perfume and put off the cloak and do in your 'Umra what you do in your Hajj.

Is this a bout of Epilepsy or Demonic possession otherwise, show us a single prophet of old that manifested this nature of Mohammed?

This issue - particularly in it's wider sense - is why Islam fails for me at the point of its supposed inception.

The Bible is clear "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, let every word be established". There are no witnesses as to whom or what Islam claims occurred in the cave of Hira.

The being did not self-identify. The entity supposedly went on to man-handle Muhammed after instructing him to do something that it must have known he was incapable of? Identification was finally by a 3rd party - Khadija's cousin Waraqa, who was old and blind - not actually present, and according to the narrative based on "his knowledge of the Christian scriptures".

Narrated 'Aisha (the mother of the faithful believers): The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright daylight, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food likewise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists), created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
(Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim)

Fortunately we still have the bible with us and the very first chapter of Luke recounts appearances of the Angel Gabriel, culminating in self-identification in verse 19, when sent to the Father of John the Baptist, and reassurance in verse 26 when sent to Mary the mother of Jesus (who is the Christ). Totally apposite to the Islamic narration.

Here Luke 1:19 from the NKJV - And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.
Here Luke 1:30 from the NKJV - Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

All attempts to witness this narrative are self-referencing or circular (the revelation validates the person who received the revelation, who validates the revelation he received). Not meeting the basic evidential criteria. Then, unfounded assertions and claims are made in support, which I find is pretty much the whole of the narrative construct around Islam. Very little is historical, factual or even accurate.

Claiming it was the Angel Gabriel as he appears in the bible is presupposing that Jibreel is Gabriel, the God of the Bible is the same as the god of the Koran and that Christianity affirms Islam, which is "no actually" in all cases.

Muslims please, come to Christ - He is The Way, The Truth and The Life.


TV

Baldwretch:
I am not actually questioning how Muhammad figured the angel's identity as Gabriel; I am asking how he could tell that the angel who appeared to him is from God and not from other sources. These are two different, but inter-related questions.

Granted, an angel appeared to him; granted, the angel identified his name as Gabriel; granted, there was a metaphysical influence around the events that indicates that the experience is more than natural, but how do we know that this angel and the experience he had is of God and not from the Devil, or from other sources? An impostor spirit claiming to emanate from and speak for the one true God with a terribly strong metaphysical influence is possible.

That is the state of the question.

Let me use an example. When the angel of God appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush; the bush was burning but was never burning up. Moses was like - wow, what in the world is going on here. How can a bush be burning for this long and not get burnt up, so he goes over and takes a very good look. Turns out, it is of God.

Ah w,ait a seconds, did I just say that it is of God? Well, hold on for a minute. It might not be. Suppose someone who wasn't there when the events happened or suppose some who witnessed the event turn around and claims that the bush did in fact burn and never got burnt up as alleged. Suppose the person's conclusions on the events is polar opposite to Moses' conclusions that the metaphysical influence on Moses and all the circumstances surrounding the events are from the Devil, not from God. It happened yes, but it is just not from God.

Would it be a reasonable and credible arguments he's making? Yes, it would be.

But why? To some degrees, the Devil is also able to replicate the same. So how could we convince this doubting Thomas that the events and the metaphysical influence and all that as experienced by Moses the servant of God is from God and not from the Devil?

That is the state of the question.

You see the thing is, no matter how much evil spirits like to wander and disrupt the divine government, they are still under God's authority and have been restrained from doing certain things. I would like to think that it is not just that they have been restrained, but they are incapable, by virtue of God's overreaching power, of doing certain things they would naturally want to do.

Do evil spirits exist? YES! But if an evil spirit wants to appear to maybe thousands or millions today as God did before the sight of all the Israelite, would he be able to accomplish or replicate the same? NO! Why not? He doesn't have that authority. God is still on the throne and he very much restrains them.

If Muhammad claims that an angel from God appeared to him with strong metaphysical influence; he might be right and he might be wrong, we would need more than his claims to believe. This spirit would have to convince not just him but us by the authority he spirit possess. The spirit would have to prove the authority he possess by appearing, in part, to some of us (or to some of the people who lived in Arabia during the time of Muhammad).

If the devil or his angels wanted to appear to all of us or to all Nigerians today, they couldn't. They do not have such authority!

Only God with the ultimate authority over everyone including the devil is able to do that. God is also able to commute some of those powers to his angels. The devil is absolutely unable to. He has been stripped of this power. No evil spirit or spirit from other sources posses that authority.

You see where I am going: only Muhammad saw the angel Gabriel. Only Muhammad came under his metaphysical influence. Only Muhammad! It's only Muhammad!

If that doubting Thomas doubted the theophany, the Burning Bush that I mentioned earlier, Moses could just say, okay your skepticism is justified. Wait. Just be patient. Don't worry. You would see the glory of God with your own two korokoro eyes and then you'd believe.

In the book of Surah Al-Torah chapter 1 verse 1 and chapter 25, 72, and 1000 of the holy Quran of that Surah, in my own translation, the New Living Translation of the holy Quran, it says:

And the glory of the Lord appeared to all the Israelite as they grumbled in their tents.

In another Surah, Surah Al-Exodus, it says,

To the Israelite at the bottom of the mountain, the glory of the Lord appear like glittering fire while the summit appears like gleaming amber.

There are just so many Surahs that says that God proved himself or his angels for other people to witness in the physical plain besides Moses indicating his absolute authority. That is how we differentiate the good from the bad, the righteous from the unrighteous, by the authority they possess. Not necessarily by the powers they exercise because (in that department) we do not have the ability to conclusively tell the difference. I wish I could meet you in person and talk sense into our head. Maybe, just maybe, if you are sincere you would renounce Islam and do a deeper introspection.



Unfortunately, all of these attributes you mentioned do not indicate conclusively that God is the source. Contrary to what many think, the devil is not terribly bad who wants nothing but bloodshed, murder, thievery, slander, and all sorts of vices, unhinged and unabated. He could make demands of these and even more from those who might believe in him for different reasons than God's, for different purposes, to different ends, and if he would be the authority on the subject. It all boil down to authority wars. Doing what you think is right because "He said so" is far more important than doing the "right thing." If a man would come under metaphysical influence that is not of God, all of these demands and more would be demanded, with absolute strictness in the details, provided it is done because of him. The idea of a depraved, degenerate deity that commands and allows all sorts of vices and crimes have never been a human idea. It only exist in the imagination.

The initial revelation in the Cave of Hira marks a monumental event, demonstrating the profound nature of divine selection. When the Prophet Muhammad pbuh encountered the angel Jibril, the command to "recite" was both a challenge and an invitation to engage with the divine message. The Prophet's initial hesitation, stemming from his unlettered state, highlights the humility inherent in spiritual receptiveness.

The physical manifestation of Jibril a. s encompassing the horizon with his six hundred wings, reinforces the magnitude of this revelation. Such an overwhelming sight instills a sense of awe and certainty in the Prophet about the authenticity of his experience. This was further validated by Waraqah ibn Nawfal, whose recognition of Jibril's role confirms the continuity of divine communication through angels across prophets.

Continued revelations through Jibril cemented this relationship, indicating that the Prophet pbuh was not merely a passive recipient but an active participant in the dissemination of divine wisdom. The Quran explicitly acknowledges Jibril’s pivotal role, affirming him as the "Trustworthy Spirit." Thus, the narrative of Jibril embodies the assurance of divine guidance in a world rife with uncertainty, compelling both believers and skeptics alike to acknowledge his significance as the messenger of Allah.

Ohyoudidnt:
The initial revelation in the Cave of Hira marks a monumental event, demonstrating the profound nature of divine selection. When the Prophet Muhammad pbuh encountered the angel Jibril, the command to "recite" was both a challenge and an invitation to engage with the divine message. The Prophet's initial hesitation, stemming from his unlettered state, highlights the humility inherent in spiritual receptiveness.

The physical manifestation of Jibril a. s encompassing the horizon with his six hundred wings, reinforces the magnitude of this revelation. Such an overwhelming sight instills a sense of awe and certainty in the Prophet about the authenticity of his experience. This was further validated by Waraqah ibn Nawfal, whose recognition of Jibril's role confirms the continuity of divine communication through angels across prophets.

Continued revelations through Jibril cemented this relationship, indicating that the Prophet pbuh was not merely a passive recipient but an active participant in the dissemination of divine wisdom. The Quran explicitly acknowledges Jibril’s pivotal role, affirming him as the "Trustworthy Spirit." Thus, the narrative of Jibril embodies the assurance of divine guidance in a world rife with uncertainty, compelling both believers and skeptics alike to acknowledge his significance as the messenger of Allah.

1. Jibril is so big he fits the horizon yet he was able to squeeze Mohammed
2. Jibril so big he fits the horizon, yet he fit perfectly into the cave
3. You've not told us how an angel with 600 wings look like.

You are just repeating the same lies you have heard from Mohammed.

Let me remind you of what Mohammed saw

Sahih al-Bukhari 3
Narrated 'Aisha (the mother of the faithful believers):
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright daylight, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food likewise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists), created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

1. Is it that Jibril didn't know that Mohammed cannot read?
2. Was Mohammed given anything to read by Jibril?
3. How come after Jibril commanded Mohammed to read three times, he still couldn't read?

Impersonation is possible in every religion no matter what you claim whether Christian or Muslim.

The only way to uncover impersonation in religion is what God promised.

What are the promises of God regarding His worshipers or prophets that Muhammad fulfilled?

What obvious blessings has it brought to mankind?

If a demon disguised as Gabriel Muhammad can only know if he's familiar with knowledge about the true God and His promises. In the absence of that Muhammad has no blame!

Ohyoudidnt:
The initial revelation in the Cave of Hira marks a monumental event, demonstrating the profound nature of divine selection. When the Prophet Muhammad pbuh encountered the angel Jibril, the command to "recite" was both a challenge and an invitation to engage with the divine message. The Prophet's initial hesitation, stemming from his unlettered state, highlights the humility inherent in spiritual receptiveness.

Nicely worded, but easily spotted as a "just so" story. Way below a parable, which affords real spiritual insight. Not even at the level of a fable, which at least has moral import. More akin to tales by moonlight .

Ohyoudidnt:
The physical manifestation of Jibril a. s encompassing the horizon with his six hundred wings, reinforces the magnitude of this revelation. Such an overwhelming sight instills a sense of awe and certainty in the Prophet about the authenticity of his experience. This was further validated by Waraqah ibn Nawfal, whose recognition of Jibril's role confirms the continuity of divine communication through angels across prophets.

Sorry tpo burst your bubble, but Waraqah would not have been able to validate a 600 winged being as being Angel Gabriel of the bible - and definitely not from the bible itself. Perhaps there is some gnostic gospel or extra-biblical text to be referenced? And with what writ or from whom did Waraqah have the authority to validate the divine which he did not or could not see?

Ohyoudidnt:
Continued revelations through Jibril cemented this relationship, indicating that the Prophet pbuh was not merely a passive recipient but an active participant in the dissemination of divine wisdom. The Quran explicitly acknowledges Jibril’s pivotal role, affirming him as the "Trustworthy Spirit." Thus, the narrative of Jibril embodies the assurance of divine guidance in a world rife with uncertainty, compelling both believers and skeptics alike to acknowledge his significance as the messenger of Allah.

Whoever or whatever it was, it was not Angel Gabriel, who is not Jibril. I was not validated by the Bible and is certainly not of divine imprimatur.
Sorry, not sorry !


Please come to Christ - who will judge the living and the dead at His coming.


TV

TV01:
Nicely worded, but easily spotted as a "just so" story. Way below a parable, which affords real spiritual insight. Not even at the level of a fable, which at least has moral import. More akin to tales by moonlight .

Sorry tpo burst your bubble, but Waraqah would not have been able to validate a 600 winged being as being Angel Gabriel of the bible - and definitely not from the bible itself. Perhaps there is some gnostic gospel or extra-biblical text to be referenced? And with what writ or from whom did Waraqah have the authority to validate the divine which he did not or could not see?

Whoever or whatever it was, it was not Angel Gabriel, who is not Jibril. I was not validated by the Bible and is certainly not of divine imprimatur.
Sorry, not sorry !


Please come to Christ - who will judge the living and the dead at His coming.


TV

Perhaps my narrative could have been structured differently though I doubt you tried to understand.

1. Jibril who you know as angel Gabriel appeared to prophet many times not just once.

2. Waraqah ibn Nawfal did not validate the angel appearing with 600 wings rather it was solely in the case of the prophet's encounter in the cave.

Waraqah was a learned man with deep knowledge of the scriptures and Gnostic traditions. His understanding of religious texts and prophetic signs allowed him to uniquely validate Muhammad's experiences in the cave of Hira. He saw parallels between the prophet's experience in the grave and those of previous prophets.

Waraqah passed away in 610AD

When Jibril appeared to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the Cave of Hira during the first revelation, he did not show all of his wings. Instead, he took on a human form to convey the message of revelation to the Prophet.

The way angels present themselves to prophets can differ depending on the situation and the wisdom of Allah.

Come to Christ to do what and in what manner? Christ will judge not God? I don't get it, are the former and latter the same with the former definitely stating the latter is greater than him?

Ohyoudidnt:
The initial revelation in the Cave of Hira marks a monumental event, demonstrating the profound nature of divine selection. When the Prophet Muhammad pbuh encountered the angel Jibril, the command to "recite" was both a challenge and an invitation to engage with the divine message. The Prophet's initial hesitation, stemming from his unlettered state, highlights the humility inherent in spiritual receptiveness.

The physical manifestation of Jibril a. s encompassing the horizon with his six hundred wings, reinforces the magnitude of this revelation. Such an overwhelming sight instills a sense of awe and certainty in the Prophet about the authenticity of his experience. This was further validated by Waraqah ibn Nawfal, whose recognition of Jibril's role confirms the continuity of divine communication through angels across prophets.

Continued revelations through Jibril cemented this relationship, indicating that the Prophet pbuh was not merely a passive recipient but an active participant in the dissemination of divine wisdom. The Quran explicitly acknowledges Jibril’s pivotal role, affirming him as the "Trustworthy Spirit." Thus, the narrative of Jibril embodies the assurance of divine guidance in a world rife with uncertainty, compelling both believers and skeptics alike to acknowledge his significance as the messenger of Allah.

Ex-kiss me sir! Ex-kiss me sir! You have not said anything. Ex-kiss me sir! Ex-kiss me sir! All you did is assume and then proceed to talk in detail about what you have just assumed. WOW! How convenient? Oh no, not very convenient!

I wish I could explain this stuff to you like a man explains basic arithmetic to a five-year-old.

He was inspired in the Cave of Hira which had caves insides caves inside caves - ten thousand caves embedded in total, I agree!

He was asked to recite the Quran when he had no mouth, I agree. It's true.

He met the holy one, the great Jubril, a fearsome and terrible angel with ten million wings, it's true. Muhammad saw him and I can relate!

These claims and many more are not up for dispute. I agree with these claims and more. You are right. I do not argue these with you. After all, it's not as if we are talking of natural events here.

What I am arguing is that this so-called angel that appeared to him might be an impostor. I mean, an angel from the devil or from other sources claiming to be an angel from God. And since he is claiming to be who he is not, the so-called angel would have to be very consistent (in words and in deed) with the persona which he claims to represent - an angel from God. An angel who claims to be Jubril in words, but who is not, would try as much as he can to be the angel Jubril in deeds. That is speaking definitionally.

Then, I proceeded to posit that we cannot know (and neither can Muhammad) if this fearsome angel is from God or from the devil just by the staggering powers he exercises on Muhammad, or by the rules and laws he enacts from his Lord or by... and more. We cannot know things that are beyond us. We can, however, identify sources by the authority they possess. Unfortunately, the angel that appeared to him couldn't prove the authority they posses.

For instance, an angel who has authority over the waters would exercise his overreaching power over the waters in a way that angels who do not have authority over the waters do not and could not. All Godly angels whether the lower or higher ranked ones have been commuted some authority that evil angels do not enjoy. One of such is the ability to be made manifest in the physical plain to humans. Unfortunately, the angel that appeared to Muhammad could not demonstrate this authority. That is what evil angels can not do.

Since the angel revealed himself to Muhammad and to only him, he is definitely not from God.

This is actually one of the ways God restrains them otherwise they would screw his government since their appearance would justify man's proclivity to unbelief. If you saw the devil in his glory today and you tow his path worshiping and praying to him, wouldn't that warrant what could be called - justified unbelief, or do you think that it's a coincidence that animals cannot talk?

His eloquent words, sharp rebuke, threats of Hell, his immense glorification of God, his detailed code of conduct for the believers and many more are not definitive proofs that God sent him. These, in and of themselves, are not definitive proofs of the angel's authority.

That being said, It seems false prophets have a knack for usurping authority and claiming to be a co-central authority by contradicting what has been made plain and prescribing their own laws. The devil can replicate the exact same command that God gave to Moses word for word if he is going to be the authority on the subject.

Do you get the objection now?

The fact of a matter should be established by more than one witness. He cannot be the only witness to a divergent path that God has prepared for his people. If Muhammad (and us) would tow a radical path that has not been towed before, then this calls for a greater witness. Extraordinary demands calls for extraordinary evidence.

Baldwretch:
The fact of a matter should be established by more than one witness. He cannot be the only witness to a divergent path that God has prepared for his people. If Muhammad (and us) would tow a radical path that has not been towed before, then this calls for a greater witness. Extraordinary demands calls for extraordinary evidence.

Muhammad cannot be blamed!
In the Arab world do they believe in the idea of two to three witnesses to establish facts? Deuteronomy 19:15
For instance God's law is that Israelites shouldn't believe what only a single witness said so to establish the case of Jesus of Nazareth four witnesses (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) penned down what they knew about this man. All of them confirmed that he was given great powers and he had disciples to whom he also transferred the power but the leaders of the Jews brainwashed their people not to accept this young man as a prophet of God.
But regarding Muhammad this is not the case, his followers only heard everything from his mouth nobody saw him perform any signs neither did they witness any angel speak to him!

So we can only blame someone who is from a far distant land who believe such a story without verification not Muhammad who claimed to have first hand experience with a strange spirit.

Baldwretch:
Ex-kiss me sir! Ex-kiss me sir! You have not said anything. Ex-kiss me sir! Ex-kiss me sir! All you did is assume and then proceed to talk in detail about what you have just assumed. WOW! How convenient? Oh no, not very convenient!

I wish I could explain this stuff to you like a man explains basic arithmetic to a five-year-old.

He was inspired in the Cave of Hira which had caves insides caves inside caves - ten thousand caves embedded in total, I agree!

He was asked to recite the Quran when he had no mouth, I agree. It's true.

He met the holy one, the great Jubril, a fearsome and terrible angel with ten million wings, it's true. Muhammad saw him and I can relate!

These claims and many more are not up for dispute. I agree with these claims and more. You are right. I do not argue these with you. After all, it's not as if we are talking of natural events here.

What I am arguing is that this so-called angel that appeared to him might be an impostor. I mean, an angel from the devil or from other sources claiming to be an angel from God. And since he is claiming to be who he is not, the so-called angel would have to be very consistent (in words and in deed) with the persona which he claims to represent - an angel from God. An angel who claims to be Jubril in words, but who is not, would try as much as he can to be the angel Jubril in deeds. That is speaking definitionally.

Then, I proceeded to posit that we cannot know (and neither can Muhammad) if this fearsome angel is from God or from the devil just by the staggering powers he exercises on Muhammad, or by the rules and laws he enacts from his Lord or by... and more. We cannot know things that are beyond us. We can, however, identify sources by the authority they possess. Unfortunately, the angel that appeared to him couldn't prove the authority they posses.

For instance, an angel who has authority over the waters would exercise his overreaching power over the waters in a way that angels who do not have authority over the waters do not and could not. All Godly angels whether the lower or higher ranked ones have been commuted some authority that evil angels do not enjoy. One of such is the ability to be made manifest in the physical plain to humans. Unfortunately, the angel that appeared to Muhammad could not demonstrate this authority. That is what evil angels can not do.

Since the angel revealed himself to Muhammad and to only him, he is definitely not from God.

This is actually one of the ways God restrains them otherwise they would screw his government since their appearance would justify man's proclivity to unbelief. If you saw the devil in his glory today and you tow his path worshiping and praying to him, wouldn't that warrant what could be called - justified unbelief, or do you think that it's a coincidence that animals cannot talk?

His eloquent words, sharp rebuke, threats of Hell, his immense glorification of God, his detailed code of conduct for the believers and many more are not definitive proofs that God sent him. These, in and of themselves, are not definitive proofs of the angel's authority.

That being said, It seems false prophets have a knack for usurping authority and claiming to be a co-central authority by contradicting what has been made plain and prescribing their own laws. The devil can replicate the exact same command that God gave to Moses word for word if he is going to be the authority on the subject.

Do you get the objection now?

The fact of a matter should be established by more than one witness. He cannot be the only witness to a divergent path that God has prepared for his people. If Muhammad (and us) would tow a radical path that has not been towed before, then this calls for a greater witness. Extraordinary demands calls for extraordinary evidence.

Indeed I understand you somewhat better now however no matter how pretentious an impostor is the true nature eventually reveals.

Perhaps previous 'good' actions were to lure you in and gain your trust then the true 'bad' nature reveals when you're too far gone to think otherwise.

So tell which bad actions did the alleged impostor angel perform. I am sure you have quite a number to share. The scene is yours now. Give us a show!

Ohyoudidnt:
So tell which bad actions did the alleged impostor angel perform. I am sure you have quite a number to share. The scene is yours now. Give us a show!

Is it true that this angel told Muhammad God has approved his taking over the young wife of his adopted son?

Ohyoudidnt:
Indeed I understand you somewhat better now however no matter how pretentious an impostor is the true nature eventually reveals.

Perhaps previous 'good' actions were to lure you in and gain your trust then the true 'bad' nature reveals when you're too far gone to think otherwise.

[b]So tell which bad actions did the alleged impostor angel perform. I am sure you have quite a number to share. The scene is yours now. [/b]Give us a show!

Okay, good. We are getting there. We might be on the same page soon.

An impostor spirit (or prophet) would eventually reveal himself, yes. You are very right.

He did eventually reveal his true self not just by different accounts of historical account. That can be taken.

He did reveal himself by the laws he countered. Sorry, by the laws he gave. Clearly, proving his lack of authority.

I started a thread

https://www.nairaland.com/8313525/gods-orders-counter-order-proves-muhammmad

Proving that he is who he is - an impostor. I would encourage you to read it. We started off the discussion with one law - the sea creature.

And then I capped it off with another, the camel. I rounded off the post with this biting comment:

Baldwretch:
A man who lived with, used, ate, and especially touched what the Torah calls an unclean animal thereby making himself unclean by this act wants to instruct us on what is clean? Is this not an irony!"

In the thread I am directing you to, I summarized my post in twelve lines. Let me share it here.

Baldwretch:
1. God gave commandments, instructions, regulations to the tribe of Israel through his prophet Moses.

2. These instructions or commands can also be likened to an order and should be seen as such. All God's commands are actually divine orders. And since we are expressly instructed not to add to or subtract from them, it can well be inferred that all divine orders are orders of perpetual injunction that cannot be modified or broken. We are required to just obey them, not modify or tinker with them.

3. An order implies a prohibition by default. That is what is implied. An order should be prohibitive by its very nature. Yes, orders can also be instructive - saying what you should do. But we don't nitpick a prohibitive order since it is what it is by default. I am not even started about corruption of these divine orders or what have you. I am not even talking about that yet. I am just talking about the nature of orders. "They said we should" can be nitpicked, but "they said we should not" cannot be nitpicked since even honest men agree that we need to be gag quite often . Only contentious people do. It's just like Pascal's Wager where he argues thus: "if God exist, you gain everything and if he doesn't exist, then you lose nothing. Wager then that he exist."

4. Like every sphere of rationale and sentient existence, governance requires a chain of authority. Usually, the highest chain of authority (or perceived to be) is the authority that is first in line (not always the case, though) or the authority that God chooses. I would even argue that the authority that God Almighty chooses is usually the first in line for central succession, for how else would we know and identify God's scale of preference among other authorities prophesying in his name at the same time?

We don't start a relay race with a weak athlete. God agrees and confirms this truth to be the case because this authority (I am talking about) is privileged to receive these instructions at the highest and most loftiest level of prophecy - face-to-face as a man talks to a friend, or between the whirling Cherubims in the Holy Of Holies cheesy grin grin grin, or from the pillar of Cloud and Fire, or through a theophany, or through an Angel (which happens rarely). It was the highest a man could ever get with God. Nothing can be loftier, nothing can be higher, and nothing can be better. God himself proves his authority with instant judgment when naysayers disagreed with this authority.

5. These instruction was given to the Israelite, a Semitic tribe, which God would use to pull mankind to himself either through acts of warfare or through some other means. The Torah as a body of instruction is not meant for ancient Israel alone, but for all of mankind. The Torah, in several isolated passages, makes it very clear that foreigners are subject to the same decrees, instructions, and commands as the natives are and even makes provisions for (certain non-Jewish race) admittance into the temple.

6. In time, other authorities appeared, gave their prophecies as revealed by God, and then they disappeared. These authorities who came in quick succession have the same objectives - namely, to establish the divine government. I was supposed to call them prophets, but since prophets carry divine authority, no expatiation is needed.

Then comes a "righteous" man who claims to have had a revelation from the same God that appeared to the first authority - Moses. This authority would be renowned for starting off the groundwork for belief in the most "mischievous" of claims; namely, that one authority needs to confirm another authority or that one authority needs to confirm the messages given to another authority by the same God. Also, this authority, as the last authority of his unsubstantiated claim, would cleverly bar his own revelation from thorough "spiritual" scrutiny (not physical examination) since other authorities after him have not been sent. grin grin grin grin

6. Human government is a terrible mimicry of divine government. There is often wranglings, disagreements, discontents, jostling for power, hijacking for royal successions and more, but that is not so with divine government. Divine government with God on the throne is the most perfect there could ever be of any kind of government. All the delegated authorities agree with each other; respect each other, have the same message regardless of their location or where they live, do not pry into the little details of the contents given to one of them.

No authority re-tells or re-echoes what messages or contents that God the Almighty has revealed to other authorities before him. I didn't have to mention that, but that is actually the case. God glorifies himself immensely and shows the depth of his justice, his power, and especially his love for each of his authorities by hiding from each of the authorities what was disclosed to any of them. We see this at play over and over again. Divine government with the Devil on the throne, even though not as perfect, still show that human government need to be propped with a very long rope. Our government still pales in comparison and far more so. A study of divine government with the Devil on the throne should (or might) educate us on how perfect government is supposed to be run.

7. Also, a study of all the prophets before the authority being referred to is supposed to enlighten us on how perfect government is run.

8. The said authority usurps the role of the first authority, claiming to be a co-central authority and talks about making a couple of instructions "lawful" and "permitted/permissible"- of course, in writing and in deed as the case may be.

9. The said authority claims he has been sent to confirm all the revelations before him and then contradicts the first authority.

10. The contradiction is not a case of textual corruption.

11. Regardless of human locale, environment, or settings, God does not contradict or modify his laws which are the foundation of his government. Even the Devil doesn't. tongue tongue God would not go back on his words which he made to one of his servants when he calls another. That is everything God is not. And even if he does go back on his words, the first of his flock would be the unlikeliest to fall victim because he would not undermine his authority.

12. The said authority cannot be trusted to be an oracle of the Most High, and the problem is not with God, but with the messenger.

The conclusion is therefore necessary and obvious: He is not a prophet sent by God. He is a prophet of his own imagination; he concocted everything.

Please go through that thread or only the comments I made in the thread. There is just so much for you to ponder and think over if you are sincere. Clearly, an angel who inspires a law that contradicts laid down instruction for all of mankind given even before we have the Lawgiver, Moses, is an impostor spirit.

Ohyoudidnt:
Perhaps my narrative could have been structured differently though I doubt you tried to understand.

I of all people admire wordsmithery. But when deployed solely to lend credence to assertions that cannot otherwise be validated, it has to be decried. Shouldn't all reading be primarily to understand?

Ohyoudidnt:
1. Jibril who you know as angel Gabriel appeared to prophet many times not just once.

But there is no record of this entity ever confirming who it was directly to the person who claimed to have received divine revelation from it. And, i do not agree that Jibril of the koran is angle Gabriel of the bible. The name Gabriel has a clear meaning ascribing to God - what does Jibril mean?

Ohyoudidnt:
2. Waraqah ibn Nawfal did not validate the angel appearing with 600 wings rather it was solely in the case of the prophet's encounter in the cave.

Which Waraqah neither saw, nor had the authority to confirm.

Ohyoudidnt:
Waraqah was a learned man with deep knowledge of the scriptures and Gnostic traditions. His understanding of religious texts and prophetic signs allowed him to uniquely validate Muhammad's experiences in the cave of Hira. He saw parallels between the prophet's experience in the grave and those of previous prophets.

Again, I don't want to come off as simply jibing, but all these claims and assertions about Waraqah are essentially baseless, and make your submission mere storytelling and not a fact based narrative. With "deep knowledge? Relative to whom or what? Where is the record of his instruction or learning? Who were Waraquah' academic antecedents. We know Paul learnt at the feet of Gamaliel for example.

God, who had revealed Himself firstly to the Jews having expressly chosen them as the conduit for His message, would switch to unlearned and unsighted Arabs to continue His unfolding revelation. With no clear transition or prophecy to validate the change?

Ohyoudidnt:
When Jibril appeared to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the Cave of Hira during the first revelation, he did not show all of his wings. Instead, he took on a human form to convey the message of revelation to the Prophet.

No issues with this necessarily - although it appears to be yet another assertion, I stand to be corrected.

Ohyoudidnt:
The way angels present themselves to prophets can differ depending on the situation and the wisdom of Allah.

Hmm...debatable, but again, no real quibbles here. But biblically, Angels typically appear to humans in human form and as men.

Ohyoudidnt:
Come to Christ to do what and in what manner? Christ will judge not God? I don't get it, are the former and latter the same with the former definitely stating the latter is greater than him?

Let's not divert from the point of this discussion. Happy to have that convo elsewhere. Please come to The Alpha & The Omega.


TV

TV01:
I of all people admire wordsmithery. But when deployed solely to lend credence to assertions that cannot otherwise be validated, it has to be decried. Shouldn't all reading be primarily to understand?
TV

The understanding can vary as we perceive things differently

TV01:
But there is no record of this entity ever confirming who it was directly to the person who claimed to have received divine revelation from it. And, i do not agree that Jibril of the koran is angle Gabriel of the bible. The name Gabriel has a clear meaning ascribing to God - what does Jibril mean?
TV

An initial look in the Qur'an for proof on the identity of Jibril reveals:

1. In Quran 26:192 Indeed this is a revelation from the Lord of the Universe;
:193 which [b]the truthful spirit[/b]has carried down
:194 to your heart that you might become one of those who warn (others on behalf of Allah

Now you may argue that Jibril isn't mentioned here specifically? If you read further into Quran 2:97 further understanding should be attained.

2. Quran 2:97 Say (O Muhammad): Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel)(let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Quran) down to your heart by Allah’s Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers

I leave you to study the hadiths where Jibril came in the form of a man while the Prophet pbuh was in company of his companions to teach them about the fundamentals of Islam.

جبريل; Jibril, is directly translated to Gabriel in English which derives from Hebrew.

It derives from the Arabic root “jabar” meaning to heal or to restore,and it refers to might from Allah.

He is described as Shadeed al-Quwa; Possessor of Great Strength in Surah Al-Najm (53:5-6). - Taught to him by one intense in strength (Shadeed al-Quwa), one of soundness. And he rose to [his] true form while he was on the higher horizon-

TV01:
I of all
Which Waraqah neither saw, nor had the authority to confirm.

Again, I don't want to come off as simply jibing, but all these claims and assertions about Waraqah are essentially baseless, and make your submission mere storytelling and not a fact based narrative. With "deep knowledge? Relative to whom or what? Where is the record of his instruction or learning? Who were Waraquah' academic antecedents. We know Paul learnt at the feet of Gamaliel for example.
TV

Well even if Jibril was physically present before Waraqah, I wonder how well he would have been seen being that the latter's sight was already waining.

Waraqah was known amongst the Arabian Christians as he translated and transcribed their books. He was recognized by the then Arabs as a man of learning and great understanding.

Baldwretch:
Okay, good. We are getting there. We might be on the same page soon.

An impostor spirit (or prophet) would eventually reveal himself, yes. You are very right.

He did eventually reveal his true self not just by different accounts of historical account. That can be taken.

He did reveal himself by the laws he countered. Sorry, by the laws he gave. Clearly, proving his lack of authority.

I started a thread

https://www.nairaland.com/8313525/gods-orders-counter-order-proves-muhammmad

I should have gone with my initial conviction to reply to you first but felt it better to slow down to holistically reply to you.

I have seen your previous post which you nicely included here but fail to identify the laws countered. Could I implore you to specifically state these?

Baldwretch:
Please go through that thread or only the comments I made in the thread. There is just so much for you to ponder and think over if you are sincere. Clearly, an angel who inspires a law that contradicts laid down instruction for all of mankind given even before we have the Lawgiver, Moses, is an impostor spirit.

Could you clarify how the laws of Moses were contradicted in prophethood of Muhammad ; peace be on both of them.

Ohyoudidnt:
Could you clarify how the laws of Moses were contradicted in prophethood of Muhammad ; peace be on both of them.

You are deceiving your own soul!

I asked you a question but you ignored now you're asking how the laws God gave Moses proved Muhammad is false.

MaxInDHouse:
Is it true that this angel told Muhammad God has approved his taking over the young wife of his adopted son?

Well the law of God given to Moses says:

“You must not desire your fellow man’s house. You must not desire your fellow man’s wife nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his donkey nor anything that belongs to your fellow man.” Exodus 20:17

Muhammad DESIRE to have his adopted Son's wife that contradicted the prophethood of your Muhammad.

The same thing happened to David but God punished him for it because it's AGAINST GOD'S LAWS GIVEN TO MOSES!

Ohyoudidnt:
I should have gone with my initial conviction to reply to you first but felt it better to slow down to holistically reply to you.

I have seen your previous post which you nicely included here but fail to identify the laws countered. Could I implore you to specifically state these?




Could you clarify how the laws of Moses were contradicted in prophethood of Muhammad ; peace be on both of them.

Baldwretch:
Okay, good. We are getting there. We might be on the same page soon.

An impostor spirit (or prophet) would eventually reveal himself, yes. You are very right.

He did eventually reveal his true self not just by different accounts of historical account. That can be taken.

He did reveal himself by the laws he countered. Sorry, by the laws he gave. Clearly, proving his lack of authority.

I started a thread

https://www.nairaland.com/8313525/gods-orders-counter-order-proves-muhammmad

Proving that he is who he is - an impostor. I would encourage you to read it. We started off the discussion with one law - the sea creature.

And then I capped it off with another, the camel. I rounded off the post with this biting comment:



In the thread I am directing you to, I summarized my post in twelve lines. Let me share it here.




Please go through that thread or only the comments I made in the thread. There is just so much for you to ponder and think over if you are sincere. Clearly, an angel who inspires a law that contradicts laid down instruction for all of mankind given even before we have the Lawgiver, Moses, is an impostor spirit.

I now see it or some of it.

The prohibition of alcohol is consistent with Mosaic Law as it upholds the principle of preventing harm. The Bible includes examples where intoxication resulted in adverse outcomes such as Genesis 9:
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard.
21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

Additionally, certain interpretations of Jewish law advise against excessive drinking.

In Luke 21:34 Jesus is said to have cautioned
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap."

Therefore, Islam's position is in harmony with the wider biblical ethic that encourages self-restraint and the avoidance of harm.

harqinhola:
@OP, I understand what you are trying to do but I hope I am able to convince you to desist from this line of thought after reading my comment. This is going to be a long one, so get a chair .

1. Theological Evidence (Qur’an & Hadith)

The Qur’an explicitly states that the revelations Muhammad (PBUH) received were from God via Angel Gabriel not a lying spirit

Surah Al-Baqarah 2:97:

“Say, ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, it is he who has brought the Qur’an down upon your heart, O Muhammad, by permission of Allah, confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers.’

The Qur’an consistently affirms its divine origin:
Surah Al-Najm 53:3-4: “Nor does he (Muhammad) speak from his own inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.”

If the revelation had come from a lying spirit (Satan), the Qur’an would not have repeatedly condemned falsehood and deception. In fact, Surah Al-Haqqah 69:44-47 states that if Muhammad (PBUH) had fabricated anything about God, he would have been punished immediately.

2. Muhammad’s (PBUH) Character and Integrity

Before receiving revelation, Muhammad (PBUH) was known as Al-Amin (the Trustworthy) by his people. A person known for honesty and integrity would not suddenly fabricate divine claims.

Even his enemies admitted that he never lied. Abu Sufyan, a leader of the Quraysh who opposed Islam, was questioned by the Roman Emperor Heraclius about Muhammad’s honesty and admitted that Muhammad never lied.

3. The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards

The Qur’an’s teachings are deeply moral, advocating justice, kindness, and truthfulness. If a lying spirit inspired it, why would it command worship of the one true God and prohibit falsehood?

Unlike deceitful spirits that promote corruption and chaos, the Qur’an guides humanity towards righteousness, which aligns with divine revelation rather than deception.

4. The Transformative Impact of the Revelation

The Qur’an revolutionized Arabian society, abolishing practices like female infanticide, tribal vengeance, and economic exploitation. Falsehood does not produce a civilization based on justice, compassion, and learning.

The rapid spread of Islam and its lasting influence show the power of truth, as deceit does not lead to long-term positive change.

5. Biblical Precedents: Angel Gabriel’s Role in Revelation

Angel Gabriel (Jibreel) is a well-known messenger of God in the Bible, appearing to Mary (Luke 1:26-38) and Daniel (Daniel 9:21-23). If Gabriel was truly sent by God before, why would his role be questioned in Islam?

Conclusion

All the evidence scriptural, historical, moral, and logical supports that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation from God through Angel Gabriel, not a lying spirit. His character, the Qur’an’s teachings, and the transformative impact of his message affirm its divine origin.

Note the bolded.

Tell me five good characters of Mohammed (SAW) worthy of a prophet and I will follow him.

Ohyoudidnt:
I should have gone with my initial conviction to reply to you first but felt it better to slow down to holistically reply to you.

I have seen your previous post which you nicely included here but fail to identify the laws countered. Could I implore you to specifically state these?




Could you clarify how the laws of Moses were contradicted in prophethood of Muhammad ; peace be on both of them.

I am currently low on data. I wouldn't be able to pull up Quranic verses on websites for fear of running out of data completely. . This new data hike, my eyes have seen wien.

That being said, this is the first order to the world of mankind:

Baldwretch:
:

Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14:

9 “Of all the marine animals, these are ones you may use for food. You may eat anything from the water if it has both fins and scales, whether taken from salt water or from streams. 10 But you must never eat animals from the sea or from rivers that do not have both fins and scales. They are detestable to you. This applies both to little creatures that live in shallow water and to all creatures that live in deep water. 11 They will always be detestable to you. You must never eat their meat or even touch their dead bodies. 12 Any marine animal that does not have both fins and scales is detestable to you.

46 “These are the instructions regarding land animals, birds, marine creatures, and animals that scurry along the ground. 47 By these instructions you will know what is unclean and clean, and which animals may be eaten and which may not be eaten.”

Meanwhile, the spirit that inspire Muhammad inspired him to say this:

AntiChristian:
:

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Lawful to you is (the pursuit of) water-game and its use for food – for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel…” [al-Maidah 5:96]. So with this all animals that live only in the sea are permissible to eat.

You cannot defend this. Doing so would be like trying to have your cake, eating everything at once, and then putting it in the refrigerator for show at a later time. Oga, your cake is in your stomach, not in your refrigerator.

In the first command and just like reptiles and animals that walk on all four, sea creatures, most of them, are forbidden including the crab, periwinkles, Oysters of all kinds, the sea-snakes (lol), Molluscs of all kinds, etc, etc. In fact, this command is rigid only certain kinds of fishes can be eaten. God is covertly saying that only certain kind of fishes, of all sea creatures that live in the water, can be eaten.

Muhammad is saying quite the opposite. Both cannot be true. He could NOT have been inspired by the real Gabriel to contradict what has been made clear. An impostor spirit does not need to (or have to) contradict every command that was given. One command, just one, is more than enough to expose him. This command is more than a sad commentary of what Moses thinks of sea animals. It is a command from God himself. Read the very first verse of that chapter.

Another one:

God says of the camel in that same chapter. Verse 4.

Baldwretch:
:

You may not, however, eat the following animals that have split hooves or that chew the cud, but not both. The camel chews the cud but does not have split hooves , so it is ceremonially unclean for you.

In the Quran Muhammad repeatedly (in several Surahs) talks of the camel as pack animals to cherish, to eat in a sacred place, and to handle lightly. The God who instructed us not to eat this animal (with clearly stated reasons) could not have inspired his angel to contradict his earlier position. That is thinking the unthinkable. Perish the thought!

And like I said, an impostor spirit does not have to contradict every law that God had given. One contradiction is enough. I would not be able to pull up Quranic verses on websites which might be data-zapping due to data constraints to prove Muhammad's approval of the camel, but they are right there on Google. Google it.

And then we have the subject of men re-marrying the women they have once divorced even if these women had married someone else after the first husband divorced them. The Bible says no, don't do it. It is detestable before God, but the Quran permits it.

Let me quote two verses of the bible that forbids it:

Jeremiah three verse one. Also, Deuteronomy 24. Verse 3. I have omitted verse one and two.

Deu. 24 vs. 3.

Baldwretch:
:

But if the second husband also turns against her and divorces her, or if he dies, the first husband may not marry her again, for she has been defiled. That would be detestable to the LORD. You must not being guilt upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as a special possession.

The book of Jeremiah chapter three and verse one reiterates this sentiment differently.

In the Quran, Muhammad cheers you on, saying yes you can re-marry her even if another man had married her.

These are not abstract laws like in the field of Mathematics where the questioner is asking you to prove Minkowsky's inequality or Pythagoras theorem. These laws were made to tackle real-life situations that humans often find themselves enmeshed in. Two contradictory laws cannot be both true.

Clearly, if God would send angels, the angel would say what the Lord his God has instructed him to say and nothing more. God would not send an angel to counter what he sent an earlier angel to say. NO! God would never screw his government in the most debased of ways. He always upholds his laws, being the foundation of his government.

I have not bothered to read the Quran but I am quite sure that if I did, I would find many more worms and filth that indicate an impostor spirit.

Ohyoudidnt:
The understanding can vary as we perceive things differently

True!

Ohyoudidnt:
An initial look in the Qur'an for proof on the identity of Jibril reveals:

1. In Quran 26:192 Indeed this is a revelation from the Lord of the Universe;
:193 which [b]the truthful spirit[/b]has carried down
:194 to your heart that you might become one of those who warn (others on behalf of Allah

Now you may argue that Jibril isn't mentioned here specifically? If you read further into Quran 2:97 further understanding should be attained.

How is the descriptor "the truthful spirit" to be understood? I know that some Islamic scholars equate Jibril with the Holy Spirit, who is also known as "The Spirit of Truth" in Christianity. Just an aside though, as this is not the main thrust here.

Ohyoudidnt:
2. Quran 2:97 Say (O Muhammad): Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel)(let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Quran) down to your heart by Allah’s Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers

In some ways this poses more questions around the claimed prophethood. Firstly, as confirming the torah and gospel, serves only to falsify the koran, and secondly, why if this prophet was the last and the seal, did God not speak to him directly a lá Moses, Joshua, David etc. all the way to The Lord Jesus Christ (who the bible notes as the summary and end of patriarchal prophethood)? Again, not central to this question on the "identity of the entity", but building up the wider case.

Ohyoudidnt:
I leave you to study the hadiths where Jibril came in the form of a man while the Prophet pbuh was in company of his companions to teach them about the fundamentals of Islam.

Sure, once this identity of this entity is confirmed.

Ohyoudidnt:
جبريل; Jibril, is directly translated to Gabriel in English which derives from Hebrew.

It derives from the Arabic root “jabar” meaning to heal or to restore,and it refers to might from Allah.

He is described as Shadeed al-Quwa; Possessor of Great Strength in Surah Al-Najm (53:5-6). - Taught to him by one intense in strength (Shadeed al-Quwa), one of soundness. And he rose to [his] true form while he was on the higher horizon-

The name Gabriel, as with all angelic names (and those of the patriarchal prophets), specifically reference (in an anthropomorphic sense so to speak) The God of the said torah and gospel. The name Jibril does not follow this pattern.

Ohyoudidnt:
Well even if Jibril was physically present before Waraqah, I wonder how well he would have been seen being that the latter's sight was already waining.

Pertinent, but only in part. The recognition was supposedly based on Waraqah' "learning and great understanding" - there is no reading of the bible that would suggest an unidentified being, who manhandled the one it appeared too and whom himself considered it dark and demonic, could be angel Gabriel of the Christian scriptures. A more reasonable, if speculative position may be that Wraqah was primarily concerned about Mohammed' wellbeing, given the traumatic nature of the encounter.

Ohyoudidnt:
Waraqah was known amongst the Arabian Christians as he translated and transcribed their books. He was recognized by the then Arabs as a man of learning and great understanding.

Recognition by "the then Arabs", does not provide us with a relative or absolute measure of learning and understanding, nor divine writ to speak on the matter.


TV

gohf:
I believe in God, and you question is truly a weighty one but may I ask you, have you ever read the contents of "Muhammad's revelation" I for one haven't, but I believe it is from the content that one may see if it's false or not. Does it contradict what Gabriel said to Daniel, Zecharias and Mary?

One thing I do not agree with that I have heard from some Muslim interpreters of their scriptures is that Muhammad is the last prophet or that he is the promised comforter from Jesus.

I believe that if indeed Muhammad received a divine revelation from God it is also highly possible for men to also corrupt such said prophecy.

And I would like harqinhola, to comment on this as well. I do consider his response if truly accurate as I do not know for sure, but if indeed Muhammad was such a man it would be unlikely for him to lie about such an incident as what was he to gain. Well he did conquer nations which is very opposite from every other prophet recorded in the scriptures.

Now "The Message’s Consistency and Ethical Standards" is a valid point but such would also be the case for Buddhism as well shouldn't it, from the little I have heard about it. Justice, kindness and the like. Preaching morals as been a norm in many religions but actually achieving it, ah well.

I know there are those who purposely try to paint Muslims in a bad light, but since the question is focused on if the spirit that spoke to Muhammad was from God or from the devil, I believe we can only answer it this way. What was the purpose of the revelation?

Was it praising Muhammad or was it saying that only God can save us as long as we obey Him? And does obeying God entail we being wicked to others and doing evil as an excuse for our religious beliefs.

Abraham called the first prophet in the Bible and the focus of the revelation through him was about the promise of salvation from God.

Now I also heard that the Quran states that God already forgave Adam and Eve therefore there's no need for any reconciliation back to God, maybe not exactly written that way but some teach that as well. Now if forgiveness was already given, it nullifies the very purpose of the promise given to Abraham about blessing all the nations through his seed.

Now I do not put it past the devil to fabricate a very brilliant very detailed lie that removes the one thing that truly brings salvation, God's word and promise. Devil is capable of making people jump off roof tops based on misunderstanding Psalm 91.


There as to be an explanation from the revelation that reveal God's plan for salvation of which we can say it is genuinely from God or not.

There was a time our prophet SAW said somethings that he later renounced that it wasn't from his Allah.

Another incident is a Christian man who writes the current recitation (Qur'an) for Muhammad, but he later left Muhammad and he was gruesomely killed by our prophet.

The issue of receiving so called revelations that goes contrary to sanity.. collecting his Adopted son's wife, infact at a point Aisha the 9 year old wife said is like the so called revelations is meant to favour you.

Baldwretch:
I am currently low on data. I wouldn't be able to pull up Quranic verses on websites for fear of running out of data completely. . This new data hike, my eyes have seen wien.

That being said, this is the first order to the world of mankind:



Meanwhile, the spirit that inspire Muhammad inspired him to say this:

It is interesting you take this stand point but ignore your own books.

Acts 10:
13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.

And also Mark 7:
18 Are you so dull? he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.).
.
Perhaps you can explain a little more the position of these verses as to if it takes precedence over Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.