₦airaland Forum

immaculatesense:
His point is the position of the scriptures sir.
If a goat calls itself the son of a man, it means that goat is claiming to be a man.
Jesus said he is the son of God thereby making himself equal with God (John 5:18)
John 5:18
[18]So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, [/b]thereby making himself equal with God.[b]

Therefore Jesus is god in his nature and essence lower and inferior only to the Father who alone is the One and True God of all.

Thanks.

Jesus is God. Please, don't use small letter g for Jesus.

He is not inferior to his Father. He is only subject to Him.

The fact that you have a boss in the office doesn't make you inferior to your boss.

MaxInDHouse:
Context is the answer because people did Obeisance to Moses, Saul, David so because a language doesn't have another way to express two different things shouldn't blind a real scholar from differentiating such words.

Smile.
It's you trying to prove that Obeisance is different from Worship now, as though the scriptures was originally written in English.
And you know you can't corner me.
Max, I have always advised you to study the scriptures in its originality so that you will avoid being boxes.
Now you are talking about context.
You have never answered any of my questions because you know that I bring scriptures from their original Greek and Hebrew and it's difficult to dispel.
Three questions I have asked you and you have been unable to answer and now you added one to it.

1. What is Jehovah in Greek? Or does it not exist in Greek?
2. What is the Biblical proof that Jesus sits on a different throne from his Father as against his claim in Revelation 3:21.
3. Which apostle worked for government and was under the pay of the evil government they opposed was not from God (Herod, Caesars or Pharisees)? And why should Jehovah's Witnesses work for Government they claim was not God ordained?
4. Since the Greek word for worship and obeisance are the same, how is it right to say one cannot be used in exchange for another in the English form since the Greek is the same and there is not distinction in the usage?

Thanks.

delkuf:
still truth have answered the question. Why the asking me.

😂😂So Jesus is no longer equal with the Father? He is no longer the Almighty God?

immaculatesense:
Max.
Don't be clever by half sir.
Let my quote from your Bible. I have almost all versions of scriptures on my phone. So, let me quote yours and you will answer my question on Obeisance and Worship as used in your own version.
1. Hebrewz 1:6
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do [/b]obeisance[b] to him.”

2. Revelation 5:14
The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and [/b]worshipped.[b]

Max, this is your JW version.
My Question.
Can you tell me the Greek word(s) used for both Obeisance and Worship?

I put it to you that both are the same Greek word [/b]proskuneo[b] and that they are not different words but for ulterior motive your translators used two different words.

Note: I have the original Greek and Hebrew Bible.

Thanks.

Below is Matthew 18:26. Why does the New King James Version Not use Worship?

King James Bible
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

New King James Version
The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’

Truthseeker10:
😂😂So Jesus is no longer equal with the Father? He is no longer the Almighty?

guy stop all this your hide and seek. The Lord Jesus is God and we have God the Father

Ken4Christ:
Jesus is God. Please, don't use small letter g for Jesus.

He is not inferior to his Father. He is only subject to Him.

The fact that you have a boss in the office doesn't make you inferior to your boss.

So is Jesus the Almighty God?

delkuf:
guy stop all this your hide and seek. The Lord Jesus is God and we have God the Father

So The Lord Jesus is not the Almighty God. So he has a God greater than Him.

Does Jesus Worship the Almighty God?

Ken4Christ:
Jesus is God. Please, don't use small letter g for Jesus.

He is not inferior to his Father. He is only subject to Him.

The fact that you have a boss in the office doesn't make you inferior to your boss.

Smile
Sir, there is not different between small g and big g because the Greek and Hebrew do not have Capital letters, so whenever you see small or big g, it is all and the same.

Sir, Jesus is God or god anyone is the same "Elohim" or "theos".
The subjectivity of the son to the Father shows that he is Inferior to the Father but superior to all other beings.
The fact that I say the Jesus is inferior to His father does not diminish him at all, it only exalts the Father to be above all including his son.
Let me put it like this.
The word inferior means "less" or "subject" like you put it. So, whether you use Subject or less or inferior, it is one and the same sir, not reduces nor increases the status of the Father's only begotten son.
Jesus himself said it "My Father is greater than I am." Which means in the reverse "I am lesser than my Father."

So sir, using inferior does not reduce Jesus, it only shows that Jesus is supreme over all things except his Father who is supreme over all things including his son. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.

Thanks.

immaculatesense:
Smile.
It's you trying to prove that Obeisance is different from Worship now, as though the scriptures was originally written in English.
And you know you can't corner me.
Max, I have always advised you to study the scriptures in its originality so that you will avoid being boxes.
Now you are talking about context.
You have never answered any of my questions because you know that I bring scriptures from their original Greek and Hebrew and it's difficult to dispel.
Three questions I have asked you and you have been unable to answer and now you added one to it.

1. What is Jehovah in Greek? Or does it not exist in Greek?
2. What is the Biblical proof that Jesus sits on a different throne from his Father as against his claim in Revelation 3:21.
3. Which apostle worked for government and was under the pay of the evil government they opposed was not from God (Herod, Caesars or Pharisees)? And why should Jehovah's Witnesses work for Government they claim was not God ordained?
4. Since the Greek word for worship and obeisance are the same, how is it right to say one cannot be used in exchange for another in the English form since the Greek is the same and there is not distinction in the usage?

Thanks.

Below is Matthew 18:26. Why does the New King James Version Not use Worship?

King James Bible
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

New King James Version
The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’

immaculatesense:
Smile
Sir, there is not different between small g and big g because the Greek and Hebrew do not have Capital letters, so whenever you see small or big g, it is all and the same.

Sir, Jesus is God or god anyone is the same "Elohim" or "theos".
The subjectivity of the son to the Father shows that he is Inferior to the Father but superior to all other beings.
The fact that I say the Jesus is inferior to His father does not diminish him at all, it only exalts the Father to be above all including his son.
Let me put it like this.
The word inferior means "less" or "subject" like you put it. So, whether you use Subject or less or inferior, it is one and the same sir, not reduces nor increases the status of the Father's only begotten son.
Jesus himself said it "My Father is greater than I am." Which means in the reverse "I am lesser than my Father."

So sir, using inferior does not reduce Jesus, it only shows that Jesus is supreme over all things except his Father who is supreme over all things including his son. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.

Thanks.

Do you agree with the diagram below.

Truthseeker10:
Below is Matthew 18:26. Why does the New King James Version Not use Worship?

King James Bible
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

New King James Version
The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’

Lol.
What is my business with KJV. If you know me, you know I am not Version biased. I look into the original and the original used "worship" and not "fell down."

Humans worship humans, children worship the parents etc.
You are the one that have issue with "worship". I do not have any issues with the word and it is generally used across the scriptures both for men, spirits, angels, the son and the father. So, what concerns me with the biasness of KJV?

immaculatesense:
Lol.
What is my business with KJV. If you know me, you know I am not Version biased. I look into the original and the original used "worship" and not "fell down."

Humans worship humans, children worship the parents etc.
You are the one that have issue with "worship". I do not have any issues with the word and it is generally used across the scriptures both for men, spirits, angels, the son and the father. So, what concerns me with the biasness of KJV?

😂😂😂so the bible teaches that everyone including Jesus and his father should be worshipped?

MaxInDHouse come and see oo.

Truthseeker10:
Do you agree with the diagram below.

No, I don't.
From scriptures, the Father was called god. I have quoted relevant scriptures on that in previous discussions.
From scriptures, the son was called god. I have also quoted relevant scriptures on that in previous discussions.

But, I have never read in the scriptures where the Holy spirit was called god. So, it is not in my place to add or remove form scriptures.

So, I rather stick to calling the holy spirit the spirit of god sent in Christ name as seal upon believers. I do not add or subtract from scriptures. No Sentiments.

Does that answer you question.

immaculatesense:
No, I don't.
From scriptures, the Father was called god. I have quoted relevant scriptures on that in previous discussions.
From scriptures, the son was called god. I have also quoted relevant scriptures on that in previous discussions.

But, I have never read in the scriptures where the Holy spirit was called god. So, it is not in my place to add or remove form scriptures.

So, I rather stick to calling the holy spirit the spirit of god sent in Christ name as seal upon believers. I do not add or subtract from scriptures. No Sentiments.

Does that answer you question.

So you don't believe that God is three persons(The father, the son, the holy spirit)?

Truthseeker10:
😂😂😂so the bible teaches that everyone including Jesus and his father should be worshipped?

MaxInDHouse come and see oo.

If you don't understand Greek and Hebrew you can't understand what I wrote there. Don't you obey (obeisance) your parents? The Greek words is the same as worship. So, don't be surprised when I say you worship your parents, it is still the same words "worship."

Or
Do you think when Jesus said in Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your Father." Do, you think it is a sin to call you Dad, Father? Same thing with worship you parents, do you think and meant serve them like you would God?

Lol.

immaculatesense:
If you don't understand Greek and Hebrew you can't understand what I wrote there. Don't you obey (obeisance) your parents? The Greek words is the same as worship. So, don't be surprised when I say you worship your parents, it is still the same words "worship."

Or
Do you think when Jesus said in Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your Father." Do, you think it is a sin to call you Dad, Father? Same thing with worship you parents, do you think and meant serve them like you would God?

Lol.

Oga I am not arguing with you.
Does the Bible say we should worship everyone including Jesus and his father? Yes or no sir?

Truthseeker10:
So you don't believe that God is three persons(The father, the son, the holy spirit)?

I told you to go read my write up on Trinity and what it really meant. The problem is that you don't wanna dig it out and that is why Max knows my standpoint and he respect me but you don't.
I will be a fool and sentimental to called the holy spirit God when there is no Bible reference to that regard. And I will be a bigger fool to say the son is not god when there are many Bible verses to that regard and I will be the biggest fool to say the Father is not god when there are many Bible verses to that regard.

Thanks.

immaculatesense:
I told you to go read my write up on Trinity and what it really meant. The problem is that you don't wanna dig it out and that is why Max knows my standpoint and he respect me but you don't.
I will be a fool and sentimental to called the holy spirit God when there is no Bible reference to that regard. And I will be a bigger fool to say the son is not god when there are many Bible verses to that regard and I will be the biggest fool to say the Father is not god when there are many Bible verses to that regard.

Thanks.

Ok....no problem.

Truthseeker10:
Oga I am not arguing with you.
Does the Bible say we should worship everyone including Jesus and his father? Yes or no sir?

By everyone you would mean? Be specific sir. Because Satan is also part of everyone. So, it's a no. But, everyone like my Father and Mother, my older siblings and adults. Yes, I worship them on a daily basis. Take note that I stick to the Greek word "proskuneo" which means either "to knew before", "to pay obeisance" or "to worship."

Thanks.

immaculatesense:
By everyone you would mean? Be specific sir. Because Satan is also part of everyone. So, it's a no. But, everyone like my Father and Mother, my older siblings and adults. Yes, I worship them on a daily basis. Take note that I stick to the Greek word "proskuneo" which means either "to knew before", "to pay obeisance" or "to worship."

Thanks.

Explain Matthew 4:10.

King James Bible
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

New King James Version
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve

Is there a difference in the three words("to knew before", "obeisance" and "worship" ) or they all mean the same thing?

immaculatesense:
Smile.
It's you trying to prove that Obeisance is different from Worship now, as though the scriptures was originally written in English.

Some languages have boundaries which makes it difficult for translators to work on the correct interpretation of what the original author meant.
For instance the Greek language you keep talking about has several rendition for one English word "LOVE"
EROS~ romantic
PHILIA~ friendly
AGAPE~ unconditional
LUDUS~ playful relationship
STORGE~ family relationship
PHILAUTIA~ self worth or esteem
PRAGMA~ has outgrown challenges
Do you think it can make sense to a Greek reading your article if you apply EROS to the love you have for a car?

So if the Greek translating what you wrote before his friend now apply LUDUS then suddenly another person insisted that in English (language of the original author) there is no separate rendering for LOVE but choose to us EROS instead how does that sound to you?

Jesus never ask anyone to worship him instead he consistently emphasize on obedience to what he says because it's from his father who dearly loves and trusted him. So a reasonable translator will make use of his own initiative while choosing the best English rendition to drive home the message which is OBEISANCE!

MaxInDHouse:
Some languages have boundaries which makes it difficult for translators to work on the correct interpretation of what the original author meant.
For instance the Greek language you keep talking about has several rendition for one English word "LOVE"
EROS~ romantic
PHILIA~ friendly
AGAPE~ unconditional
LUDUS~ playful relationship
STORGE~ family relationship
PHILAUTIA~ self worth or esteem
PRAGMA~ has outgrown challenges
Do you think it can make sense to a Greek reading your article if you apply EROS to the love you have for a car?

So if the Greek translating what you wrote before his friend now apply LUDUS then suddenly another person insisted that in English (language of the original author) there is no separate rendering for LOVE but choose to us EROS instead how does that sound to you?

Jesus never ask anyone to worship him instead he consistently emphasize on obedience to what he says because it's from his father who dearly loves and trusted him. So a reasonable translator will make use of his own initiative while choosing the best English rendition to drive home the message which is OBEISANCE!

Max.
You know you are being clever by half.

The example you cited about love is in direct opposite of worship we are discussing and u shot urself in the leg.

Now, both errors come from English and you made both errors yourself. See the error you made.
1. Greek has many words for love but your English used love for all the Greek word and they are all different.

2. Greek used ONE word alone for worship, but your English version used two different words.

Can you see clearly that the error is NEVER in the Greek words but in your English in both case you raised that are even different in the first place.

Love in Greek are different and diverse but your English made it one.
Worship in Greek is one and the same but you English made it different. LOL.

THANKS.

immaculatesense:
Max.
You know you are being clever by half.

The example you cited about love is in direct opposite of worship we are discussing and u shot urself in the leg.

Now i know the type of person you really are!

Are you saying all languages have a way to interpret each word?

If Greeks rendered the word LOVE alone in almost 7 different ways whereas English uses the same word LOVE that shows you can't always translate languages word for word to drive home the message of an author who speaks another language.

Jesus keep talking about OBEDIENCE to the son of God not worship so if we can use both words then whenever that Greek word is used for Jesus it could only mean OBEISANCE NOT WORSHIP!

Truthseeker10:
Do you agree with him?

I asked you: you don't agree with him?

Truthseeker10:
Explain Matthew 4:10.

King James Bible
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

New King James Version
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve

Is there a difference in the three words("to knew before", "obeisance" and "worship" ) or they all mean the same thing?

They all mean the same thing in Greek which is the original. So English interpretation is inconsequential in this case.
Back to your Matthew 4:10.
1. What was Satan asking Jesus to do? Simple, Satan was asking Jesus to "BOW/FALL DOWN" (pipto) in Greek to "worship or pay obeisance" (proskuneo) in Greek but Jesus refused.
Note two things Jesus said in verse 10.
1. Worship
2. Service

Note: These two things are also done to men but not in totality just like you call your dad "father" but not in the context Jesus forbids.
Or
Will you say it is wrong to tell a servant to SERVE his master? Or would you say it is wrong for a citizen to BOW DOWN before the king of his town?
But we know that in both occasions we are not regarding that to absolute worship, service or fatherhood as we would to god.

Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Now i know the type of person you really are!

Are you saying all languages have a way to interpret each word?

If Greeks rendered the word LOVE alone in almost 7 different ways whereas English uses the same word LOVE that shows you can't always translate languages word for word to drive home the message of an author who speaks another language.

Jesus keep talking about OBEDIENCE to the son of God not worship so if we can use both words then whenever that Greek word is used for Jesus it could only mean OBEISANCE NOT WORSHIP!

No sir.
The English translation is inconsequential in comparison to the Greek because the Greek is the original language of the writer.
When the Greek uses different words for a thing, then we should abide by it and if our language cannot accommodate the diversity, then we should maintain the exact words as in a borrowed word instead of using the same word for different words in the original.
Also, it is wrong to use different words for a unanimous word used in the original. It is a distortion of the original language that did not make provision for two different words to be used for the same word.

Thanks.

immaculatesense:
No sir.
The English translation is inconsequential in comparison to the Greek because the Greek is the original language of the writer.

NO!
The original language of Bible writers is Hebrew not Greek they borrowed this language because it's the common language most people back then understands.
So if they had to use Hebrew no one was worshiped by faithful people except the only true God but because they used another language that's why you want to argue now that someone else apart from the only true God should be worshiped.

MaxInDHouse:
NO!
The original language of Bible writers is Hebrew not Greek they borrowed this language because it's the common language most people back then understands.
So if they had to use Hebrew no one was worshiped by faithful people except the only true God but because they used another language that's why you want to argue now that someone else apart from the only true God should be worshiped.

Ahhhh...Max.
The New Testament was never written in Hebrew sir. No sir. Only the Old Testament was written in Hebrew.
Jesus never spoke Hebrew. Paul never spoke Hebrew. None of the Apostles spoke Hebrew language.
They all were born to Speak Greek and Aramaic language. All the New testament were ALL written in Greek from Matthew to Revelation with few elements of Aramaic (especially in Jesus statement).
Max. I have always tell you to give yourself to learning in order to annex your full potential.

MaxInDHouse:
Some languages have boundaries which makes it difficult for translators to work on the correct interpretation of what the original author meant.
For instance the Greek language you keep talking about has several rendition for one English word "LOVE"
EROS~ romantic
PHILIA~ friendly
AGAPE~ unconditional
LUDUS~ playful relationship
STORGE~ family relationship
PHILAUTIA~ self worth or esteem
PRAGMA~ has outgrown challenges
Do you think it can make sense to a Greek reading your article if you apply EROS to the love you have for a car?
So if the Greek translating what you wrote before his friend now apply LUDUS then suddenly another person insisted that in English (language of the original author) there is no separate rendering for LOVE but choose to us EROS instead how does that sound to you?

MaxInDHouse: Jesus never ask anyone to worship him

oh duh lost false jw mad max

Jesus never asked for worship so with that you think He shouldn't be worshipped,
this Christian worships Jesus Christ Who sacrificed Himself for me, that i may have eternal life with Him

MaxInDHouse: instead he consistently emphasize on obedience to what he says because it's from his father who dearly loves and trusted him. So a reasonable translator will make use of his own initiative while choosing the best English rendition to drive home the message which is OBEISANCE!

obedience and obeisance are not related, obedience means to obey, obeisance is a gesture such as a bow showing respect

the angel said; proskuneo/worship God
Rev 19:10  Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; proskuneo/worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

God said; let all the angels proskuneo/worship Him (Jesus)
Heb_1:6  And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD proskuneo/WORSHIP HIM."





worship: show reverence and adoration
obeisance: a gesture such as a bow showing respect

^^ also worship and obeisance meaning is similar,
but angel said: proskuneo/worship God,
God said: proskuneo/worship Jesus

immaculatesense:
They all mean the same thing in Greek which is the original. So English interpretation is inconsequential in this case.
Back to your Matthew 4:10.
1. What was Satan asking Jesus to do? Simple, Satan was asking Jesus to "BOW/FALL DOWN" (pipto) in Greek to "worship or pay obeisance" (proskuneo) in Greek but Jesus refused.
Note two things Jesus said in verse 10.
1. Worship
2. Service

Note: These two things are also done to men but not in totality just like you call your dad "father" but not in the context Jesus forbids.
Or
Will you say it is wrong to tell a servant to SERVE his master? Or would you say it is wrong for a citizen to BOW DOWN before the king of his town?
But we know that in both occasions we are not regarding that to absolute worship, service or fatherhood as we would to god.

Thanks.

So in what context is it wrong to call dad "father"?

What do you mean by absolute worship? What's the Greek word for "worship" and what's the Greek word for "absolute worship"?

Truthseeker10:
So in what context is it wrong to call dad "father"?

What do you mean by absolute worship? What's the Greek word for "worship" and what's the Greek word for "absolute worship"?

1. Father in Greek means "someone who gives life (to the child). So, what Jesus meant was to let us know that it is only Almighty God who gives life to all men and that occurred should not be given to anyone else.

2. I obey my parents as a child should but I don't obey them in all things but I obey god in all things. I worship my parents but I don't worship them in absolute but I worship God in absolute.

3. The Greek word is [/b]pas[b] which means all, everything, fullness.
So, absolute worship means, to worship in all fullness and in everything. I don't do that to my parents, my worship of them is not absolute but my worship to God is absolute in all fullness and in everything.

Thanks.

immaculatesense:
Ahhhh...Max.
The New Testament was never written in Hebrew sir. No sir. Only the Old Testament was written in Hebrew.

Which Bible writers was Greek by birth?
Thank you!