₦airaland Forum

Ken4Christ:
In your common grave, people weep and gnash their teeth?

In your common grave, are there worms that do no die?

Does your common grave have a gate?. Jesus spoke about the gates of hell.

Can Satan who is a spirit being be buried in your common grave? Jesus said that hell was prepared for the devil and his Angels. So how would the devil enter your common grave?

You problem is pride. You have belived lies for so long that you don't want to admit it even in the face of overwhelming evidence of the scriptures that says otherwise.

Keep defending the lies of Russell and Rutherford. You will burn in hell if you don't repent.

Ken4Christ:
In your common grave, people weep and gnash their teeth? In your common grave, are there worms that do no die?
Does your common grave have a gate?. Jesus spoke about the gates of hell.

Ken4Christ:
There is no way the diagram can fully explain the mystery of trinity. It will take a whole book to do that. And, I will come up with one very soon.

Truthseeker10:
Oga kindly come up with your diagram because you are even confusing yourself on this trinity matter. You are just jumping from pillar to post.

Truthseeker10:
Oga kindly come up with your diagram because you are even confusing yourself on this trinity matter. You are just jumping from pillar to post.

MaxInDHouse:
You don't understand idioms so there is no way your brain can work to grasp that but one thing is sure God never talked about anything after death from Genesis to Malachi so whatever you read that contradicts God's word in the New Testament is an Idiom that you need to understand not literal!

immaculatesense:
The concept of hell according to my close study of scriptures have beings well defined by the English translation. The Hebrew did not do well about it too while the Greek did a very good job about it.
1. English (KJV) used Hell for everything.
2. Hebrew used Sheol for everything.
3. Greek used (1) Hades (2) Gehenna (3) Tartarus

So, when a person mentioned Hell (English), before I comment, I ask the question, Which one?
Hebrew - Sheol is used for common grave when all men will end.
Greek (1) Hades is used for the grave where all men will end.
Greek (2) Tartarus is used for a very dark place where disobedient fallen angels are held until the day of judgement.
Greek (3) Gehenna which has been used in two ways both literal and figurative.

Literal because there is Gehenna in Israel during the Second Temple era till the days of Jesus and the Apostles where dead bodies and refuse were dumped and the fire burns continuously and there is always worms.

Figurative because Jesus used this literal place to exemplify the LAKE OF FIRE prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels and also for people who lived wickedly and their names are not found in the book of those who will live forever (book of life).

So, it seems you and Max are speaking two different things. He is speaking about the Grave (Hades) and you are speaking about the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). Both of you are right from your perspective. It is English that sum them all as Hell that brings about the discrepancy.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
You are wicked. When you see any truth that doesn't agree with your lies, you call it an idiom. You are possessed with demon who is bent on standing on lies.

Ken4Christ:
I am very acquainted with all the usage and it's origin. I have a whole book on this. Max problem is that he doesn't believe at all that there's a literal place of torment called hell. He also doesn't believe that those thrown into the Lake if fire will experience unending torment. They are taught to believe that they just go into a state of none existence. They interpret the phrase, second death as none existence. But I have proven to him countless times that it isn't so with evidence of the scripture. But he still holds on to his lies. He will believe in it when he gets there but it will be too late.

Ken4Christ:
I am very acquainted with all the usage and it's origin. I have a whole book on this. Max problem is that he doesn't believe at all that there's a literal place of torment called hell. He also doesn't believe that those thrown into the Lake if fire will experience unending torment. They are taught to believe that they just go into a state of none existence. They interpret the phrase, second death as none existence. But I have proven to him countless times that it isn't so with evidence of the scripture. But he still holds on to his lies. He will believe in it when he gets there but it will be too late.

immaculatesense:
WHAT DO I BELIEVE?
I believe either way may be right. Both can be backed by scriptures.

MaxInDHouse:
Well i strongly believe you have serious issues with biblical understanding.
First of all there was nothing like suffering after death from Genesis to Malachi because God made a clear statement that Adam will cease to exist, if Adam who opened the door to sin and death will cease to exist what is the moral justification for excruciating pains for his descendants who found themselves in compromising situations that's pushing them to commit sin?
The idea of eternal torment is of pagan origin because the demons teaches that God can't make anyone cease to exist {Genesis 3:4} and that's what they have been promoting throughout the world it's only within God's people Israel that it is clearly stated in the scriptures that the dead are unconscious {Ecclesiastes 9:5-10} the idea of having a deal with the dead is prohibited in God's law because there is no living dead it's demons that are pretending to be dead people to further promote their teachings.

Jesus used lots of idioms in his teachings and for anyone to understand what he taught you need to move closer to those who are anointed with holy spirit {Matthew 28:20} or make a thorough research on what you read in the scriptures doing so with two or more individuals who are also sincere. Matthew 18:20

Jesus told his listeners that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood {John 6:54} instead of calmly asking him to expatiate since it's unlawful to do so {Leviticus 17:14} they rashly concluded that Jesus is demonic {John 6:52, 60} so because of this many of his DISCIPLES stopped following him never to have anything to do with him again! John 6:66

So if Jesus is using idioms and parables all we need to ask for is the meaning {Matthew 7:7-8} not to condemn what's in God's word or turning against Jesus.

@ Luke 16:19-31
The torment Jesus is talking about has to do with religious leaders extorting money from people claiming they are God's representatives by the time those common people gets to know Jesus who is the truth the religious leaders found themselves in emotional agony because their mugus has been let loose through Jesus' teachings. John 8:32

This is the meaning of each term Jesus used in that illustration:
*Rich man: Jewish religious leaders.
*Lazarus: Common Jews.
*Table of the rich man: Temple where common Jews go to get spiritual food.
*Gate of the rich man's house: Common Jews always seeking to learn whatever the Jewish religious leaders would say.
*Sour on Lazarus: God's rejection for long.
*Dogs leaking sours: different nations using the opportunity to dominate Jews.
*Death of Lazarus and rich man: change in conditions when Christ arrived.
*Abraham's bosom: Common Jews were favoured by Jesus as he continued to be with them giving them power to perform great signs.
*Excruciating pains for the rich man: the religious leaders became restless because they knew Jesus is surely God's sent but they felt slighted for not being commended at all for their long time service.
*Rich man asked Abraham to command Lazarus to cool his thirst: Jewish religious leaders began running up and down demanding that Jesus' disciples should stop talking about Jesus.
*Lazarus made no statement: Jesus' disciples refused to stop what they were doing.
*Rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers: Jewish religious leaders wants signs from Jesus' disciples but Jesus said that is unnecessary.
*Rich man argued that if Lazarus whose condition has changed should visit his brothers they will repent: Religious leaders are demanding signs from Jesus' true disciples till today claiming whatever we preach if it's not backed with signs they will not accept it.
*Abraham's last statement: If religious leaders refused to learn from what happened to false prophets in the Bible there is no sign for them.

This is the interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich man but if you want to verify go and read from verse one of Luke 16 to know who are the people Jesus was addressing that day!

immaculatesense:
Max
You won't drag me into this debate and your tantrums. I have made my points. Take it or leave it. I have more important things to attend to.
Thanks for your understanding.

immaculatesense:
Ken
Smile. None of the two of you is going to the lake of fire. I don't think anyone of you is wicked enough to be there. I know we have our lapses and our differences but to be cast into the lake of fire, it is for those who totally belong to the devil and I don't think any of you have that lifestyle that can be termed devilish in Bible context.
See Ken. Bible interpretation problems is something that has been in existence since that time of the Pharisees and Sadducees (on resurrection), even among the Apostles (salvation, faith, the Gentiles etc). They will not end until the coming of our Lord.
The confusion arises from three things and it will be difficult to come to an agreement on what this three things means.
1. Eternal which literally means forever.
2. Torment which literally means excruciating pain
3. Death which literally means to still living or existing.

All the three above have been interpreted in different ways.
1. Some believe that the eternal torment is a state of pain, punishment for all ages unending. And this group also interpret second death as a permanent departure from the grace and mercy of God. This group using the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man as their major argument. (I believe you belong to this group).
2. Some others believe that death means to cease to live or exist or to go into extinction,which means they can't feel nor experience anything. They also believe that the use of eternal does not mean forever but for an age. Thereby interpreting eternal torment to be a temporary state of eternal regrets (probably of the live they had live and the judgement being passed on them)before they finally go into extinction. This group uses Romans 6:7 as there argument.(I believe Max holds this view).

WHAT DO I BELIEVE?
I believe either way may be right. Both can be backed by scriptures. So therefore, since I live my life through the grace of God, I do not need to bother about the state of the wicked. Whether or not they will suffer forever or they will cease to exist. It doesn't matter to me since my portion won't be with them because I will be living forever with Christ.
So, when people ask me. I just present the two views to them and tell them that none of the two is good or preferred to the other, why not choose eternal life.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
I don't agree with you on who is cast into the Lake of fire or not. The scripture is very clear on the subject of eternal destiny. It's not about how wicked one is. So many good people are in hell and many more will go to hell. And so many so called wicked people made heaven and many more will make heaven if they embrace the grace of our Lord Jesus that brings salvation.

First, I don’t think you know much about the doctrines of JW which Max is heralding. They are anti Christ. They are not Christians. They oppose every truth of God's word and derail people away from the path of salvation. Let me give you a few example:

1. They don't believe Jesus rose from the dead bodily which the scripture clearly teaches. They assert in an earlier publication that God melted his body with chemical that it disappeared. In their recent publication, they said that God took the body.
2. They don't believe that salvation is obtained by grace alone. They emphasise work.
3. They don't believe that Jesus is God. They call Jesus a god and an angel.
4. They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They call him a force or wind.
7. They don't believe Jesus is coming back to rapture the church. They said he already came back 1914.
8. They don't believe every believer in Christ will go to heaven. They teach that only 144,000 is destined for heaven.

I could go on and on.

Concerning the subject of Lake of fire or hell, I repeat; it's not about how wicked you are. Anyone who rejects Jesus as Lord and Saviour will be cast there.

Our Lord Jesus said that those who don't believe in him are already condemned- John 3:18.

Max is an agent of darkness; teaching doctrines of devils. I have been studying the doctrines of Jehovah Witness for about 40 years now. They are a false religious cult.

Ken4Christ:
I don't agree with you on who is cast into the Lake of fire or not. The scripture is very clear on the subject of eternal destiny. It's not about how wicked one is. So many good people are in hell and many more will go to hell. And so many so called wicked people made heaven and many more will make heaven if they embrace the grace of our Lord Jesus that brings salvation.

First, I don’t think you know much about the doctrines of JW which Max is heralding. They are anti Christ. They are not Christians. They oppose every truth of God's word and derail people away from the path of salvation. Let me give you a few example:

1. They don't believe Jesus rose from the dead bodily which the scripture clearly teaches. They assert in an earlier publication that God melted his body with chemical that it disappeared. In their recent publication, they said that God took the body.
2. They don't believe that salvation is obtained by grace alone. They emphasise work.
3. They don't believe that Jesus is God. They call Jesus a god and an angel.
4. They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They call him a force or wind.
7. They don't believe Jesus is coming back to rapture the church. They said he already came back 1914.
8. They don't believe every believer in Christ will go to heaven. They teach that only 144,000 is destined for heaven.

I could go on and on.

Concerning the subject of Lake of fire or hell, I repeat; it's not about how wicked you are. Anyone who rejects Jesus as Lord and Saviour will be cast there.

Our Lord Jesus said that those who don't believe in him are already condemned- John 3:18.

Max is an agent of darkness; teaching doctrines of devils. I have been studying the doctrines of Jehovah Witness for about 40 years now. They are a false religious cult.

immaculatesense:
Ken
1. I don't have issues with any denomination. If we hold everything against ourselves, we will all be guilty. What matters to me is not what a person professes or confesses but the life the person lives. That's all.
2. I am a strong believer of Jesus and a full fledge Christian, but I do not believe that everyone who do not believe in Jesus will go into the lake of fire.
A. We have people who have never heard about Jesus. How will God judge them.
B. We have people who believe in Jesus but they live a wicked life. How will God judge them.
C. If God judges every man by what they believe and not what they do, how will that be a fair judgement from a just God.
D. When the rich young man asked Jesus what he can do to be saved. Why didn't Jesus say, believe in me? Why did he say, keep the law. But when the rich man justified himself, thought Jesus was happy with him, but the response of Jesus was that if the rich man wants to be PERFECT, then he should follow him.
D. From the conversation of the young rich man and Jesus, I can deduce that living right place a role in eternal life while faith in Christ brings a perfect life that is worthy of being a leader and ruler in the world to come.
E. My submission. In the world to come, every good man from every tribe and religion of good intent will be there, while believers in Christ will reign and rule in leadership over them in a way that everyone will know and accept that God is a just God.

You may disagree, and if you do, you are right. But I do not agree that everyone who is not a Christian will go to the lake of fire.

Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
You just wrote your opinion and not scriptures.

The scripture addresses those who have never heard about Christ. God will judge them according to the natural law placed in their conscience.

But those who hear and do not believe will be dawned. Jesus said so. The Apostles affirmed it.

Those who believe and commit sins without repenting will also be damned.

JW is not a denomination. It's an organisation set up to oppose the truth of God's word.

immaculatesense:
IF A MUSLIM HEARD OF CHRIST BUT DID NOT ACCEPT BUT DECIDED TO LIVE RIGHT WITH HIS NEIGHBORS. HE MAY NO BE IN THE MILLENNIAL REIGN WITH CHRIST WHICH IS MEANT FOR ONLY THOSE WHO ARE ELECTED, BUT HE WILL AT THE WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT BE JUDGED BY HIS WORKS AND IF HE HAS BEEN FOUND TO LIVE RIGHT WITH HIS NEIGHBORS, HE WILL BE IN THAT KINGDOM TO COME ETERNALLY.

MaxInDHouse:
No Muslim can see God's Kingdom unless he or she becomes a Christian!
The only opportunity such a person has is if he conscientiously practice his faith without getting the sense of what Jesus taught he will be resurrected as one of the UNRIGHTEOUS and during Christ's 1,000 year reign he will have the opportunity to learn from Christians when all false religions are no more, by that time only Jehovah's Witnesses will be preaching and teaching throughout the earth so if after his resurrection and seeing with his own eyes that his former religion has been destroyed with all its features yet he maintained that he will not practice true Christianity then he will be judged by what the Christians preach to him {Revelations 20:11-12} in fact he only has just a hundred years to live {Isaiah 65:20} unlike others who are fighting hard to put away their old personality due to what they have learned about Christ. Ephesians 4:22-24

So don't think any religionist apart from Christians can survive the judgement day, no matter what you think you're doing as good if it's not in line with Jesus' teaching they are as useless as filthy rags! Isaiah 64:6

immaculatesense:
Max
I have heard you. I have made my point.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
No wahala, your point is unscriptural that is what you need to know!

MaxInDHouse:
Is the new testament a requirement for Salvation?
YES!
The New Testament is the only means of salvation.
From Abel to John the baptist all lived by what they knew as good or written in the laws given to Moses but God told Moses himself that salvation is yet attainable not until the prophet who will come in the manner of Moses seal the second covenant {Deuteronomy 18:18-19} if salvation was attainable through the law or lifestyle of God's friends who live before the law what further need should there be for someone else to bring another covenant? Hebrews 7:11; Jeremiah 31:33
So while all servants of God from Abel to John the baptist were declared righteous for hope of resurrection they are not yet fit for everlasting life which is salvation that's what Jesus meant when he said:

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it." Matthew 11:11-12

So before John the baptist people like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Elijah, Daniel and others (all born through women) none is as great as John the baptist before God but the least person in God's memory for salvation (everlasting life) is greater than John the baptist.

Why?
Because from the day John the baptist baptized Jesus the race for everlasting life began as Jesus the way, the truth and the life began his earthly ministry so only his followers as in those practicing what he taught are adequately qualified for everlasting life.
That's why Jesus told a man who has kept all the laws of God that the only thing that could hinder him from entering God's Kingdom (everlasting life) is to forgo worldly pursuit and become a disciple of Christ! Luke 18:18-23
So the same goes to all those mentioned in the Bible before John the baptist whoever refuses to become a Christian among them can't be saved!

Ken4Christ:
JW doctrines has damaged your brain and keep you blind. Your brain will reset when you see yourself in hell.

Janosky:
LYING pastor wey no know him Bible.

immaculatesense:
I have heard you sir
Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
So, in a context, Jesus is equal with God. In another context, the Father is greater than Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:3
" But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman. and God is the head of Christ"

LYING pastor wey no know him Bible.
Always LYING & deceiving himself.

Ken4Christ:
I said it will require a book and not a diagram

Truthseeker10:
😂😂😂😂when is this book coming out? Until then I don't believe in Trinity cause your explanation is contradictory.

immaculatesense:
Good sir.
We have agreed sir. But let us look at the three verses you quoted because it seems they you did not look at them deeply sir. But I understand you perspectives which is good but let us look at the interpretation of those verses you mentioned.
1. John 10:30.
In this verse, Jesus was talking about unity in that verse sir. The oneness he mentioned about him and the father was about the unity that exists between him and the father. He is not saying that he is the Father but that him and the father are united (one). Remember John 17:21 that Jesus said "Make all of the (the church) one just as we (the Father and the son) are one." So, the oneness is about unity.

2. John 10:33.
The people were accusing Jesus of calling himself God because he called himself the son of God. Just like if a goat for instance called itself the son of a man, the goat is indirectly calling itself man. So, the Jews understand that Jesus calling himself the son of God shows that he claimed to be God. Jesus also confirm this in verse 36 where he rebuked them for being angry for calling himself the son of godt.
Jesus always call himself the son of God but the Jews understand that calling himself the son of God is the same as calling himself God.

3. Philippians 2:6
Form of God, meaning there is a God (Father) that Jesus has his form.
Equal with God which means that there is a God Jesus can be compared with.
So, this verse, Paul was trying to show the Philippians that this Jesus is the replica and image and fullness of the Father and that Jesus is not an ordinary being but one who has been exalted to the right hand of the day to receive the same honor and glory.

So, we agree on all these.
Thanks.

Ken4Christ:
Sure. You forgot one
The Father is equal to the Son in a context.

Jesus said, I and my Father are one.- John 10:30.

Ken4Christ:
The Jews knew what he meant. So they said:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

When they accused Jesus of making himself God, he didn't say that he was not. Rather, his further comment affirmed that Jesus is God. And he is one with him.

Ken4Christ:
Even Paul wrote in his letter to the Philippian church that Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God - Philippians 2:6.

.

Janosky:
Bill Mounce is a staunch Trinitarian & Greek scholar.
Bill Mounce Greek interlinear bible @ Philippians 2:6 is very very different from your Trinitarian tinted version.

MaxInDHouse:
I remember a brother who became one of Jehovah's Witnesses due to the false doctrine of Trinity.
This man sincerely told us that in their theology school they said it's compulsory they teach Trinity to people but up till the day he met us his conscience has been disturbing him because he doesn't understand the concept and they never taught them in the theology school all they told them is that God is Trinity so each pastor should develop his own explanation with the help of the Holy Ghost.
That's why you're seeing contradictions everywhere all in the name of TRINITY!