₦airaland Forum

wirinet:
First of all, there is no evidence outside the Torah that the Israelites were ever held in slavery in Egypt. The Egyptians were excellent record keepers, they had no record of Joseph, Jewish enslavement, the plagues, Moses, and most ridiculous of all - a whole Pharaoh with his whole army drowning in the red sea.

That's why i trust the Bible with my whole heart!
No nation records their failures nah they only records their victory.
Use your own brain to judge the matter.

It was through Joseph Egypt became the world power in ancient times because people from all inhabited part of the planet came to buy food from Egypt with whatever they can use for exchange.
So slaves, weapons, gold, silver and many more were brought to Egypt in exchange for food.
Who is the master mind behind this success?
Joseph an Israelite.
Now after 400 years the Israelites have become slaves in Egypt only for Moses a runaway criminal with a God from nowhere to come demanding for all the slaves the Egyptians relied upon to do all their works.
Then this single God with Moses an old man fought against all the gods in Egypt and conquered then all and freed the Israelites which led to the death of Egypt's finest warriors and their king.

Ọmọ how do you expect any powerful nation back then to include this in their records nah?

Ask them if they believe in Muhammad because in the Quran their holy book it is written that Moses with God's people defeated Pharaoh.
Abeg which other nations have Pharaoh as their King?
Ọmọ Egypt's national football team is named the Pharaohs of Egypt.
So it's either they trash their Quran or include the story in their records no way out!

MaxInDHouse:
Amalekites attacked the Israelites on their way from Egypt knowing fully well they are not prepared for war {Exodus 17:8} from that day Yahweh told Moses that Amalek will be wiped out from the surface of the earth! Exodus 17:14
So you need to know what prompted this events!

I don’t expect you to do anything less other than defend and justify that…

So your all knowing god, all merciful and loving , chose sides between two human tribes?

Where’s the wisdom?


What did Jericho do to Israel?
What exactly the Jericho do wrong that Israelites went there to destroy them and killed them all… elderly, children, babies

Your Yahweh is a demon! And you the follower are equally evil!

wirinet:
Where did you get the notion that Satan is a blood thirsty demon? Even the Bible did not describe him as such. Satan only killed on person in the whole of the bible - Job, and he got permission from Yahweh. Now compare to Yahweh.

That’s true

Even Satan was not as evil as Yahweh

The same way that evil guy called maxindhouse defends Yahweh is the same way Boko haram defend their acts

Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Maxindhouse, if Yahweh gives you this same order today, would you do it?

wirinet:
Imagine someone saying there is not evidence of evolution in the 21st century, when the complete human genome has been decoded. Genetics can pinpoint every gene in your body. They can use your genes to trace your relatives for many generations. They can reference the closeness to other animals by comparing the genes alone.

Its so ludicrous it leaves me stunned. Like... They barely even grasp the concept itself before deriding it. Something a google/AI/youtube search would educate you on in a few mins. Ignorance is more appealing it seems.

Omoawoke:
I don’t expect you to do anything less other than defend and justify that…
So your all knowing god, all merciful and loving , chose sides between two human tribes? Where’s the wisdom?

All you need is a Bible study.
God only wanted to use Israelites as the nation that will hold pure worship that's why He did all that. So any nation that's fighting against Israel were enemies of pure worship from God's standpoint.
Meanwhile He warned the Israelites that if they misuse the privilege He will wipe them out from the surface of the earth.

Omoawoke:
What did Jericho do to Israel?
What exactly the Jericho do wrong that Israelites went there to destroy them and killed them all… elderly, children, babies. Your Yahweh is a demon! And you the follower are equally evil!

Jericho is on the promised land God swore to give Abraham for the establishment of pure worship.
So after sending a warning message to all the nations on that land of promise their King refused to let go instead he was planning to fight against the Almighty God who defeated the world's most powerful nation of his time without a military force.
Of course Rahab a prostitute in Jericho used her brain to know which side she needs to be.
Ọmọ Jehovah did not just saved Rahab and the people with her but made sure that her name is included in the list of the ancestors of Jesus Christ! Matthew 1:5

MaxInDHouse:
All you need is a Bible study.
God only wanted to use Israelites as the nation that will hold pure worship that's why He did all that. So any nation that's fighting against Israel were enemies of pure worship from God's standpoint.
Meanwhile He warned the Israelites that if they misuse the privilege He will wipe them out from the surface of the earth.


Jericho is on the promised land God swore to give Abraham for the establishment of pure worship.
So after sending a warning message to all the nations on that land of promise their King refused to let go instead he was planning to fight against the Almighty God who defeated the world's most powerful nation of his time without a military force.
Of course Rahab a prostitute in Jericho used her brain to know which side she needs to be.
Ọmọ Jehovah did not just saved Rahab and the people with her but made sure that her name is included in the list of the ancestors of Jesus Christ! Matthew 1:5

Even you should be laughing at what you wrote

You don finally kolo

This has become a comedy session

Omoawoke:
That’s true
Even Satan was not as evil as Yahweh
The same way that evil guy called maxindhouse defends Yahweh is the same way Boko haram defend their acts
Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Maxindhouse, if Yahweh gives you this same order today, would you do it?

You aren't interested in the case so i'm not surprise how you think in Yorùbá land an adage says.

A gbọ́ ejọ́ ẹnìkan dájọ́ àgbà òṣìkà ni.

Meaning:

One who judges based on what one side says is an evil judge.

Yahweh told us why He must destroy all those people so that pure worship could be established.

Today Christ (our spiritual temple) has been established so there is no need for any killing because Yahweh's worshipers are in all places so no place is called sacred again anywhere Christians gather is holy ground! John 4:24

Omoawoke:

Even you should be laughing at what you wrote. You don finally kolo. This has become a comedy session

Leave it for interested persons who may like to know why Yahweh did what He needs to do for the establishment of pure worship.
So i'm not responding just for you o!

@ Omoawoke.

Can you now tell us something we can all verify through records about Ọ̀rúnmìlà after all you disagree with Bible's explanation.

MaxInDHouse:
You aren't interested in the case so i'm not surprise how you think in Yorùbá land an adage says.

A gbọ́ ejọ́ ẹnìkan dájọ́ àgbà òṣìkà ni.

Meaning:

One who judges based on what one side says is an evil judge.

Yahweh told us why He must destroy all those people so that pure worship could be established.

Today Christ (our spiritual temple) has been established so there is no need for any killing because Yahweh's worshipers are in all places so no place is called sacred again anywhere Christians gather is holy ground! John 4:24

You haven’t answered the question

If yawheh appears to you now and tell you to go to a village in Ogun state where they are carrying sacrifices and doing ogun festivals…

And told you to go there and kill everybody there and their children and babies? Would you do it?

As for me, there’s no way anything or anyone on earth can order to me to go slaughter babies with swords…. I will never do it…

So answer, would you?

Omoawoke:
You haven’t answered the question
If yawheh appears to you now and tell you to go to a village in Ogun state where they are carrying sacrifices and doing ogun festivals… And told you to go there and kill everybody there and their children and babies? Would you do it?
As for me, there’s no way anything or anyone on earth can order to me to go slaughter babies with swords…. I will never do it… So answer, would you?

Instead of this aggression you need to calm down and think.
I told you the reason why Yahweh told the Israelites to destroy those nations on the promised land.
They weren't destroyed for whatever religion they practiced but stubborness to leave the land Yahweh gave Abraham for the establishment of pure worship.
Note that there was a nation that left and begged the Israelites for a space the Israelites gave them on the same promised land.
So it totally negates Yahweh's program for anyone or group of people to attack others for the sake of worship.
If anyone hears such today it's the voice of a demon because it has nothing to do with Yahweh's program!

MaxInDHouse:
Instead of this aggression you need to calm down and think.
I told you the reason why Yahweh told the Israelites to destroy those nations on the promised land.
They weren't destroyed for whatever religion they practiced but stubborness to leave the land Yahweh gave Abraham for the establishment of pure worship.
Note that there was a nation that left and begged the Israelites for a space the Israelites gave them on the same promised land.
So it totally negates Yahweh's program for anyone or group of people to attack others for the sake of worship.
If anyone hears such today it's the voice of a demon because it has nothing to do with Yahweh's program!

So imagine if you had been in Israel at that time this happened,
And your were instructed to destroy completely, slaughter women, children and nursing babies…

Would you have done it back then…

Omoawoke:
So imagine if you had been in Israel at that time this happened,
And your were instructed to destroy completely, slaughter women, children and nursing babies…
Would you have done it back then…

Ọmọ that's what people back then does as in all the nations in fact Yahweh was merciful to have send a warning signal ahead.
People back then were fighting for lands as they support one king against another it's only Yahweh that reigns back then as a spirit King all other nations were fighting in support of kings who only rules them with no difference in the form of worship they all practiced.

So YES i will be among the Israelites doing God's will.
But if i happen to be an Egyptian or an inhabitant of Jericho or Amalek i will never fight in support of a human King for any reason whatsoever!

MaxInDHouse:
Ọmọ that's what people back then does as in all the nations in fact Yahweh was merciful to have send a warning signal ahead.
People back then were fighting for lands as they support one king against another it's only Yahweh that reigns back then as a spirit King all other nations were fighting in support of kings who only rules them with no difference in the form of worship they all practiced.

So YES i will be among the Israelites doing God's will.
But if i happen to be an Egyptian or an inhabitant of Jericho or Amalek i will never fight in support of a human King for any reason whatsoever!

So you just said you will draw out a sword and slaughter a nursing baby…


Seun, please let’s find this guy and either luck him up forever in rehab or send him to jail…
He shouldn’t be moving among sane humans
He’s a potential danger to the society

Omoawoke:
So you just said you will draw out a sword and slaughter a nursing baby…
Seun, please let’s find this guy and either luck him up forever in rehab or send him to jail… He shouldn’t be moving among sane humans. He’s a potential danger to the society

Funny clown!
So you can't differentiate between
"i will" and
"i would have"

If you don't have faith that doesn't mean you should bury your brain nah.

Do people still learn war today?
Is there any law that stipulates who they should kill during wars?

Ọmọ you are really a kid.

What occurred back then totally differs from what we have to today.

Back then people fight for lands in support of their human kings but only Yahweh demanded for a land by sending a warning signal to those occupying the land to vacate.

So if i was with the Israelites back then i will destroy anything on the way of pure worship.

I know you are pained with the way i rendered you silence showing that Yahweh has sound reasons for what He did back then.

wirinet:
My brother male and female organs did not just evolve spontaneously. The organs evolved much later. It was the sex cells that first evolved and specialised in reproduction.

According to evolutionary theory, single cell organism lasted for a very long time before aggregating into multicellular. So asexual reproduction was the only means of reproduction. Also well into the early multicellular phase asexual reproduction ruled. It was when cells began to differentiate and organism increased in complexity that organs began to evolve. Complex organism were more vulnerable to environmental changes than simple or single cell organism, and thus a way to speed up evolution was required, this was where sexual reproduction came to the rescue.

It's a more complex process, and I read it quote a while ago, but I just presented you the summary.

It doesn't address the problems. I articulated them in 12 posers above.

wirinet:
Complex organism were more vulnerable to environmental changes than simple or single cell organism, and thus a way to speed up evolution was required, this was where sexual reproduction came to the rescue.

.

You cant just state that "a way to speed up evolution was required" and as such boom! Sexual reproduction appears on the scene.
Sexual reproduction requires the simultaneous evolution in both male and female of complimentary sexual organs in a complete set, including mammary glands and all of this must happen in a single generation - which is impossible.

Lest I have to explain why it must happen in a single generation, it is because no offspring will survive or even come into being at all if the whole complimentary reproductive male and female set is not complete! Is this lost on you?

Can you now see the difficulty?

MaxInDHouse:
Funny clown!
So you can't differentiate between
"i will" and
"i would have"

If you don't have faith that doesn't mean you should bury your brain nah.

Do people still learn war today?
Is there any law that stipulates who they should kill during wars?

Ọmọ you are really a kid.

What occurred back then totally differs from what we have to today.

Back then people fight for lands in support of their human kings but only Yahweh demanded for a land by sending a warning signal for those occupying the land to vacate.

So if i was with the Israelites back then i will destroy anything on the way of pure worship.

I know you are pained with the way i rendered you silence showing that Yahweh has sound reasons for what He did back then.

See who is talking about having a brain 🤣 Ironic

Lucifyre:
See who is talking about having a brain 🤣 Ironic

See what many have said about me:
Traditionalist

Nnamdipapa:
Max, do not descend to the levels of these people, and never let them get to you. I have noticed your interactions on NL for years and I see emotional maturity and the way you carry yourself, I have yet to see in the average Pentecostal Christian.

Atheist

Tayorshd87:
Awesome input 💯
That's true logically

Catholic

Kingsempires:
I know you and I don't agree on the same christain doctrine but I grab point in some of your preaching
I learned something on this your comment

Interested person

SeniorMan715:
The way you explain and answer questions, sometimes i wonder if truly you are a human or an angel. You know everything.

Traditionalist

Questionnaires:
MAXINDHOUSE is The Only Reasonable Christian That I've Come Across On This Forum That Creates Discourse And Debates Without Trying To Hurt The Emotions of Others No Matter How They Don't Agree With His Philosophy.

Questionnaires:
You Are One of The Smartest Christians on Nairaland and in Nigeria At Large.

Interested person

CJStarz:
Guy, I just dey reason your talks.
U dey make sense shaaa.
But ur oda brethren wey dey yarn opata here, I go soon reason im matter.
You're trying to prove me wrong in my assertion which I'm beginning to see but that guy is a complete wacko.
Wetin be im name here sef.
Let me check

CJStarz:
Na you wey just convert from Islam be d correct Witness.
Achorlady just dey yarn off point

Pentecostals

Mayflowa:
Wow! See Bible scholars! So impressive!

naturefellow:
Amazing! Thanks for the input. Knowledge added reading it.

Treborblue:
Wow insightful thanks very much

Atheist

Sojourner2000:
For real... It's hard answering this when I know for sure that the God we are referring to is just an illusion that most humans chose to accept as a reality.
Anyways I wanted to commend you for the hard facts you have been dropping and how you have been tackling responses. I need people like this in real life. Everyone around me is just dumbed down

So it's after beaten all you guys through the power of reasoning that's paining your friend (Omoawoke) you people thought nobody could defend God's word the way i did.
Omoawoke tried insults it failed, he used abusive speeches it failed, he turned to curses i wasn't bothered he then switched to emotional blackmail after everything failed at last he felt this man should be arrested for defending the Bible.
If he's not a clown who are the policemen or politicians in power?
Are they not the same people claiming Christians and Muslims?
In fact they will beat him mercilessly after reading all what he has typed about their God and i will still be the one to plead on his behalf.

DeepSight:
You cant just state that "a way to speed up evolution was required" and as such boom! Sexual reproduction appears on the scene.
Sexual reproduction requires the simultaneous evolution in both male and female of complimentary sexual organs in a complete set, including mammary glands and all of this must happen in a single generation - which is impossible.

Lest I have to explain why it must happen in a single generation, it is because no offspring will survive or even come into being at all if the whole complimentary reproductive male and female set is not complete! Is this lost on you?

Can you now see the difficulty?

My brother, I respect your intellectual and spiritual depth, but I must admit evolution is not one of your strong subjects. Me, I have been studying evolution since the age of 16, especially that of humans. That's close to 4 decades. I started studying evolution before the human genome was decoded. Even though I am not an authority on the subject, I fully understand the process.

So let me explain the evolution of sex and sexual reproduction as best as I can;

The Evolution of Sex

The process of evolution is gradual, not spontaneous or simultaneous. It occurs through minute, often imperceptible changes in genes passed down over many generations. While mutations—sometimes triggered by radiation or chemicals—can introduce rapid genetic changes, most such mutations are harmful. True evolutionary change, especially in complex systems like reproduction, takes time and builds slowly through natural selection and genetic variation.

1. The Origins: Asexual Reproduction

The earliest form of reproduction was asexual, beginning with simple cell division:
- Mitosis: A single cell grows and divides into two identical daughter cells. This method ensured efficient reproduction in unicellular organisms.
- Asexual reproduction still exists today and remains efficient for many simpler organisms, like bacteria and certain protists.

2. The Emergence of Sexual Reproduction

Over time, a more advanced method evolved—sexual reproduction, driven by the need for genetic diversity:
- Meiosis: A special type of cell division that reduces the chromosome number by half, producing specialized reproductive cells (gametes).
- Some bacteria and viruses engage in horizontal gene transfer, a primitive form of genetic exchange that increases variation—laying the foundation for sexual reproduction.

This exchange of genetic material greatly enhanced the adaptability and evolutionary potential of organisms.

3. Development of Sex Cells

As organisms evolved:
- Cells differentiated into specialized sex cells: sperm (male) and eggs (female).
- These gametes carried only half the genetic information, and required fusion (fertilization) to create a new, genetically unique organism.

4. Evolution of Reproductive Organs and Systems

To support the new reproductive strategy:
- Organisms evolved reproductive organs to house and deliver gametes.
- Initially, many organisms were hermaphroditic, possessing both male and female reproductive organs. However, self-fertilization was often avoided to maintain genetic diversity.
- As complexity increased, many species evolved to have separate sexes, each specializing in one type of gamete. This was more efficient and avoided redundancy.

5. Fertilization Methods

- In simpler organisms(e.g., many fish and amphibians), fertilization is often external —females lay eggs and males release sperm over them.
- More complex organisms(e.g., mammals, birds, reptiles) developed internal fertilization, often accompanied by elaborate mating behaviors and specialized reproductive systems to increase the chances of successful reproduction.

6. Evolutionary Records and Continuity

One remarkable aspect of evolution is that it leaves behind traces of its history:
- From RNA to DNA, from simple proteins to cells, and from unicellular to multicellular life, these evolutionary stages are still observable today.
- Asexual and basic sexual reproduction coexist in modern organisms, offering a living window into our evolutionary past.

I'm reading certain comments here and I'm just shaking my head laughing. This thread is becoming hilarious and sad in equal measure. 🤧

I can't imagine the height of delusions it must take to rest on false validations, instead of actual evidence of your claims, to boost your own confidence. Throughout my entire life, I've met many people who are intelligent, or who THINK they're intelligent but when push comes to shove, they woefully show their ignorance to the whole room.

You can string up arguments that sound reasonable and enjoyable to read. Okay? People like to see that. They will clap and sing for it. So what? Does it really prove anything? Does it really contribute to knowledge in a discussion? In many ways, I actually feel pity for this type of people because Dunning Kruger is a serious condition and it has the grip of a metal vice.

Knowledge is power after all, and so is TRUTH. Both infintely superior to opinions, or anything else. I know say I get prick. Even the most astute scientist cannot deny that fact. 💁🏽

So it's funny to watch people here reveling in the euphoria of mass delusion. People love to read sophistry, because sophistry looks pretty and fanciful, even though substantially, it is nonsense. And so it can never be a reliable lead to TRUTH. Evidence will always be the best route.

Okay that's my 2 cents. Carry on, y'all. 👍🏽

wirinet:
My brother, I respect your intellectual and spiritual depth, but I must admit evolution is not one of your strong subjects. Me, I have been studying evolution since the age of 16, especially that of humans. That's close to 4 decades. I started studying evolution before the human genome was decoded. Even though I am not an authority on the subject, I fully understand the process.

So let me explain the evolution of sex and sexual reproduction as best as I can;

The Evolution of Sex

The process of evolution is gradual, not spontaneous or simultaneous. It occurs through minute, often imperceptible changes in genes passed down over many generations. While mutations—sometimes triggered by radiation or chemicals—can introduce rapid genetic changes, most such mutations are harmful. True evolutionary change, especially in complex systems like reproduction, takes time and builds slowly through natural selection and genetic variation.

1. The Origins: Asexual Reproduction

The earliest form of reproduction was asexual, beginning with simple cell division:
- Mitosis: A single cell grows and divides into two identical daughter cells. This method ensured efficient reproduction in unicellular organisms.
- Asexual reproduction still exists today and remains efficient for many simpler organisms, like bacteria and certain protists.

2. The Emergence of Sexual Reproduction

Over time, a more advanced method evolved—sexual reproduction, driven by the need for genetic diversity:
- Meiosis: A special type of cell division that reduces the chromosome number by half, producing specialized reproductive cells (gametes).
- Some bacteria and viruses engage in horizontal gene transfer, a primitive form of genetic exchange that increases variation—laying the foundation for sexual reproduction.

This exchange of genetic material greatly enhanced the adaptability and evolutionary potential of organisms.

3. Development of Sex Cells

As organisms evolved:
- Cells differentiated into specialized sex cells: sperm (male) and eggs (female).
- These gametes carried only half the genetic information, and required fusion (fertilization) to create a new, genetically unique organism.

4. Evolution of Reproductive Organs and Systems

To support the new reproductive strategy:
- Organisms evolved reproductive organs to house and deliver gametes.
- Initially, many organisms were hermaphroditic, possessing both male and female reproductive organs. However, self-fertilization was often avoided to maintain genetic diversity.
- As complexity increased, many species evolved to have separate sexes, each specializing in one type of gamete. This was more efficient and avoided redundancy.

5. Fertilization Methods

- In simpler organisms(e.g., many fish and amphibians), fertilization is often external —females lay eggs and males release sperm over them.
- More complex organisms(e.g., mammals, birds, reptiles) developed internal fertilization, often accompanied by elaborate mating behaviors and specialized reproductive systems to increase the chances of successful reproduction.

6. Evolutionary Records and Continuity

One remarkable aspect of evolution is that it leaves behind traces of its history:
- From RNA to DNA, from simple proteins to cells, and from unicellular to multicellular life, these evolutionary stages are still observable today.
- Asexual and basic sexual reproduction coexist in modern organisms, offering a living window into our evolutionary past.

Many people who think they understand everything about evolution have the same unnecessary arrogance you have displayed here.

If you don't touch upon the point that all of the evolution of complimentary sexual organs must have happened in a single generation then not only do you not understand the issue, but you haven't even started to address it.

You mentioned that the evolution of sex is gradual. This could not be the case for one reason. Just tell me how there would have been successful reproduction during that gradual process with incomplete complementary reproduction systems?

That's all you need to address and not whether you started studying evolution when you were two years old.

This same arrogance of yours is what has caused many professors who have asked these questions to be fired by dogmatic academics in universities who cannot admit that the ToE has problems.

And by the way, this issue of sexual reproduction is just one problem of the ToE. There are other problems.

I told you already I accept the ToE. But if you are one of those who think it has no unresolved issues, then you don't understand it as much as you think you do.

DeepSight:
Many people who think they understand everything about evolution have the same unnecessary arrogance you have displayed here.

If you don't touch upon the point that all of the evolution complimentary sexual organs must have happened in a single generation then not only do you not understand the issue, but you haven't even started to address it.

You mentioned that the evolution of sex is gradual. This is wrong for one reason. Just tell me how there would have been successful reproduction during that gradual process with incomplete complementary reproduction systems?

That's all you need to address and not whether you started studying evolution when you were two years old.

This same arrogance of yours is what has caused many professors who have asked these questions to be fired by dogmatic academics in universities who cannot admit that the ToE has problems.

The theory of evolution has problems, I agree.

Do you have a stronger hypothesis or postulate that is backed up by the evidence?

Knowledge they say is power and power is the ability to do work, that is if you guys haven't updated the definition.

So upon all the knowledge you people have accumulated what do you have that those without such knowledge doesn't have?

As a believer in God's word i can speak boldly about my faith anywhere and at anytime before anybody.
I now have brothers, sisters and families throughout the earth because we share the same line of thought. John 17:22
We have all vowed never to raise weapons against anyone {Isaiah 2:2-4} because our God has taught us to know that supporting wars is taking side with the devil who has no reason other than killing and destroying lives! John 8:44

You are free to say whatever comes to your mind against any religion but never ever think you have what it takes to silence the WITNESSES of JEHOVAH the one and only true God! Isaiah 43:10; 54:17

Farewell!

FiveFootNinja:
The theory of evolution has problems, I agree.

Do you have a stronger hypothesis or postulate that is backed up by the evidence?

It's not really about having a better theory because I accept the fundamentals of the ToE. I just acknowledge that it has unresolved issues.

Being a person who believes in the spiritual though, I am inclined to believe in some sort of guided evolution as opposed to that which is strictly limited to natural selection. That is better able to help us with something as complicated as the evolution of the eye for example.

Many times evolutionists hide behind the large expanses of time they say evolution occurs over in order to gloss over things that will actually be impossible even in an eternity of time without guidance.

Finally let me stress that not even the guided evolution I believe in is perfect. I do not believe that the creators or instigators of this world are perfect either.

Evolutionary Theories On Gender
And Sexual Reproduction

© 2003 Brad Harrub, Ph.D. and Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

Abstract

The origin and maintenance of sex and recombination is not easily explained by natural selection. Evolutionary biology is unable to reveal why animals would abandon asexual reproduction in favor of more costly and inefficient sexual reproduction. Exactly how did we arrive at two separate genders-each with its own physiology? If, as evolutionists have argued, there is a materialistic answer for everything, then the question should be answered: Why sex? Is sex the product of a historical accident or the product of an intelligent Creator? The current article reviews some of the current theories for why sexual reproduction exists today. Yet, as these theories valiantly attempt to explain why sex exists now, they do not explain the origin of sex. We suggest that there is no naturalistic explanation that can account for the origin and maintenance of sex.

Introduction

Biology texts illustrate amoebas evolving into intermediate organisms, which then give rise to amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and, eventually, humans. Yet, we never learn exactly when or how independent male and female sexes originated. Somewhere along this evolutionary path, both males and females were required in order to ensure the procreation that was necessary to further the existence of a particular species. But how do evolutionists explain this? When pressed to answer questions such as, “Where did males and females actually come from?,” “What is the evolutionary origin of sex?,” evolutionists become silent. How could nature evolve a female member of a species that produces eggs and is internally equipped to nourish a growing embryo, while at the same time evolving a male member that produces motile sperm cells? And, further, how is it that these gametes (eggs and sperm) conveniently “evolved” so that they each contain half the normal chromosome number of somatic (body) cells? [Somatic cells reproduce via the process of mitosis, which maintains the species’ standard chromosome number; gametes are produced via the process of meiosis, which halves that number. We will have more to say about both processes later.

The evolution of sex (and its accompanying reproductive capability) is not a favorite topic of discussion in most evolutionary circles, because no matter how many theories evolutionists conjure up (and there are several), they still must surmount the enormous hurdle of explaining the origin of the first fully functional female and the first fully functional male necessary to begin the process. In his book, The Masterpiece of Nature: The Evolution of Genetics and Sexuality, Graham Bell described the dilemma in the following manner:

‘Sex is the queen of problems in evolutionary biology. Perhaps no other natural phenomenon has aroused so much interest; certainly none has sowed as much confusion. The insights of Darwin and Mendel, which have illuminated so many mysteries, have so far failed to shed more than a dim and wavering light on the central mystery of sexuality, emphasizing its obscurity by its very isolation.’[1]

The same year that Bell released his book, well-known evolutionist Philip Kitcher noted: “Despite some ingenious suggestions by orthodox Darwinians, there is no convincing Darwinian history for the emergence of sexual reproduction.”[2] Evolutionists since have freely admitted that the origin of gender and sexual reproduction still remains one of the most difficult problems in biology (see, for example, Maynard-Smith, 1986, p. 35). In his 2001 book, The Cooperative Gene, evolutionist Mark Ridley wrote (under the chapter title of “The Ultimate Existential Absurdity”):

‘Evolutionary biologists are much teased for their obsession with why sex exists. People like to ask, in an amused way, “isn’t it obvious?” Joking apart, it is far from obvious.... Sex is a puzzle that has not yet been solved; no one knows why it exists.

The full and thorough work is here:

http://www.trueorigin.org/sex01.asp

@ wirinet - You can see that this issue is not a matter of anyone not understanding evolution. Those who understand it know that this issue is a problem.

As the article above is too long to be posted in entirety without being banned by the spambot, I post the conclusion.

Conclusion

Lewis Thomas, the highly regarded medical doctor who served for many years as the president and chancellor of the prestigious Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in Manhattan, was unable to contain either his enthusiasm or his praise for the system we know as “sexual reproduction.” In his book, The Medusa and the Snail, he wrote about the “miracle” of how one sperm cell forms with one egg cell to produce the cell we know as a zygote, which, nine months later, will become a newborn human being. He concluded:

‘The mere existence of that cell should be one of the greatest astonishments of the earth. People ought to be walking around all day, all through their waking hours, calling to each other in endless wonderment, talking of nothing except that cell.... If anyone does succeed in explaining it, within my lifetime, I will charter a skywriting airplane, maybe a whole fleet of them, and send them aloft to write one great exclamation point after another around the whole sky, until all my money runs out.’[48]

Dr. Thomas’ money is perfectly safe. No one has been able to explain—from an evolutionary viewpoint—the origin of sex, the origin of the incredibly complex meiotic process that makes sex possible, or the intricate development of the embryo (which is itself a marvel of design). At conception, the chromosomes inherited from the sperm are paired with the chromosomes inherited from the egg to give the new organism its full chromosomal complement. Evolutionary theorists ask us to believe that random, chance occurrences brought about this marvelously interdependent process of, first, splitting the genetic information into equal halves, and, second, recombining it through sexual reproduction. Not only is an intricate process required to produce a sperm or egg cell in the first place via meiosis, but another equally intricate mechanism also is required to rejoin the genetic information during fertilization in order to produce the zygote, which will become the embryo, which will become the fetus, which eventually will become the newborn. The idea that all of this “just evolved” is unworthy of consideration or acceptance, especially in light of the evidence now at hand.

The highly complex and intricate manner in which the human body reproduces offspring is not a matter of mere chance or a “lucky role of the dice.” Rather, it is the product of an intelligent Creator. Albert Einstein said it well when he stated: “God does not play dice with the universe.”

http://www.trueorigin.org/sex01.asp

Do make sure to go through the whole article! It is truly worthy reading!



Oh, and here is the RESUME of the writers:

Brad Harrub is a graduate of Kentucky Wesleyan College, where he earned a B.S. degree in biology. He also earned a Ph.D. in neurobiology and anatomy from the College of Medicine at the University of Tennessee in Memphis. He is a member of the Society for Neuroscience, and was listed in the 2001-2002 edition of Who’s Who Among Scientists and Researchers. He was an invited speaker to the 2003 International Conference on Creationism. He currently serves as the Director of Scientific Information at Apologetics Press, and as associate editor of Reason & Revelation.

Bert Thompson is a graduate of Abilene Christian University, where he earned a B.S. degree in biology. He also is a graduate of Texas A&M University, where he earned both M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in microbiology. Dr. Thompson is a former professor in the College of Veterinary Medicine at Texas A&M, where he taught for several years. While at Texas A&M, he served as Coordinator of the Cooperative Education Program in Biomedical Science. Currently, Dr. Thompson is the Executive Director of Apologetics Press and editor of Reason & Revelation.

These gentlemen are Phd holders in Neurobiology and Microbiology.

And they write and ask questions articulated on same posers as mine.

DeepSight:
It's not really about having a better theory because I accept the fundamentals of the ToE. I just acknowledge that it has unresolved issues.

Fair enough. I appreciate the honesty.

Personally, I'm not too deep in the field of natural sciences so I can't claim full understanding of the ToE. I was bred in the social sciences, so I'll probably have a better shot at debating international policies and legal rights. 🤷🏽

The only gripe I have with people arguing the ToE in this religion section is that most of the time, the theory is often used as a crutch by Christians to attack atheists, and I've never understood that logic because personally I don't give a shít about the theory. It didn't lead me to become an atheist and frankly, it bores me to death.

But somehow Christians think shooting it down automatically validates their Bible stories - a very primitive type of thinking rooted in false dichotomy (an actual logical fallacy). 🤦🏽

I give the atheists a pass on bringing it up because at least they're rightfully juxtaposing it against the Bible's tale of creation, which sounds even more ridiculous and convoluted.

DeepSight:
Being a person who believes in the spiritual though, I am inclined to believe in some sort of guided evolution as opposed to that which is strictly limited to natural selection. That is better able to help us with something as complicated as the evolution of the eye for example.

This is strictly within the realm of subjectivity, so I'm not going to argue this paragraph with you. As for me, I feel no need to accept the existence of a spiritual realm.

I will never drag an argument with someone over how he believes the universe came to be, provided he or she accepts that his belief is entirely his own belief. Where I start to heckle them is if they try to establish their beliefs as an objective truth, like the way some people do here.

Also, this is unrelated to our conversation but I just want to note how profoundly ignorant some people on this thread are that they casually take the word "power" from the axiom "knowledge is power", and equate it with physical capacity.

The same people write nonsensical faith fueled diatribes here to try and disparage the idea of having "knowledge", foolishly thinking that having knowledge doesn't have any practical real world benefits. I mean, the inherent stupidity in that statement should be self evident. Lol. 😂

You seem like a pretty flexible poster in terms of thought and logic, and I respect you for it. Unlike some here who are closed off from reality by their faith, and ironically think that it is a virtue worth extolling.

DeepSight:
Many times evolutionists hide behind the large expanses of time they say evolution occurs over in order to gloss over things that will actually be impossible even in an eternity of time without guidance.

Well, like I said, I don't know jack shít about the ToE. I'm an atheist, not a biologist or "evolutionist" (whatever that means). Also I feel people often conflate "theory of evolution" with "evolution". Those two terms have different connotations.

Furthermore, I don't particularly care about the modus operandi of ToE proponents. However, a scientific theory doesn't necessarily have to be flawless for it to be plausible. Even the theory of gravity has its own limitations when you go deep into quantum mechanics.

DeepSight:
Finally let me stress that not even the guided evolution I believe in is perfect. I do not believe that the creators or instigators of this world are perfect either.

Again, I will not personally accept the idea of there being a "creator or instigator" of this world without convincing evidence. But I will respect it as your belief.

DeepSight:

Just tell me how there would have been successful reproduction during that gradual process with incomplete complementary reproduction systems?

Reproduction as defined by biology is a system of self replication.

Reproduction as defined by biology is fundamentally a system of self-replication, meaning organisms create copies of themselves, ensuring the continuation of species and passing on genetic information. So I don't understand what you mean by successful reproduction.

As I said reproductive systems evolved from simple cell division - mitosis to complex reproductive systems involving defined sex organs and sex. Some animals possess both sex organs while most higher organisms have just one. Some mutations allow people to possess both sex organs.

FiveFootNinja:
Fair enough. I appreciate the honesty.

Personally, I'm not too deep in the field of natural sciences so I can't claim full understanding of the ToE. I was bred in the social sciences, so I'll probably have a better shot at debating international policies and legal rights. 🤷🏽

The only gripe I have with people arguing the ToE in this religion section is that most of the time, the theory is often used as a crutch by Christians to attack atheists, and I've never understood that logic because personally I don't give a shít about the theory. It didn't lead me to become an atheist and frankly, it bores me to death.

But somehow Christians think shooting it down automatically validates their Bible stories - a very primitive type of thinking rooted in false dichotomy (an actual logical fallacy). 🤦🏽

I give the atheists a pass on bringing it up because at least they're rightfully juxtaposing it against the Bible's tale of creation, which sounds even more ridiculous and convoluted.



This is strictly within the realm of subjectivity, so I'm not going to argue this paragraph with you. As for me, I feel no need to accept the existence of a spiritual realm.

I will never drag an argument with someone over how he believes the universe came to be, provided he or she accepts that his belief is entirely his own belief. Where I start to heckle them is if they try to establish their beliefs as an objective truth, like the way some people do here.

Also, this is unrelated to our conversation but I just want to note how profoundly ignorant some people on this thread are that they casually take the word "power" from the axiom "knowledge is power", and equate it with physical capacity.

The same people write nonsensical faith fueled diatribes here to try and disparage the idea of having "knowledge", foolishly thinking that having knowledge doesn't have any practical real world benefits. I mean, the inherent stupidity in that statement should be self evident. Lol. 😂

You seem like a pretty flexible poster in terms of thought and logic, and I respect you for it. Unlike some here who are closed off from reality by their faith, and ironically think that it is a virtue worth extolling.



Well, like I said, I don't know jack shít about the ToE. I'm an atheist, not a biologist or "evolutionist" (whatever that means). Also I feel people often conflate "theory of evolution" with "evolution". Those two terms have different connotations.

Furthermore, I don't particularly care about the modus operandi of ToE proponents. However, a scientific theory doesn't necessarily have to be flawless for it to be plausible. Even the theory of gravity has its own problems when you go deep into quantum mechanics.



Again, I will not personally accept the idea of there being a "creator or instigator" of this world without convincing evidence. But I will respect it as your belief.

Thanks very much for this fair critique. Let me seize the opportunity to point out that religious dogma is far far worse.

I do not subscribe to the myths contained in the Bible or Quoran for this reason.

One more thing. When I say "creators or instigators" of this world, I generally mean that in a possible sense, and not in the sense that I know it for certain. I do not.

Very little about the way this world came to be can be known for certain.

wirinet:
Reproduction as defined by biology is a system of self replication.

Reproduction as defined by biology is fundamentally a system of self-replication, meaning organisms create copies of themselves, ensuring the continuation of species and passing on genetic information. So I don't understand what you mean by successful reproduction.

As I said reproductive systems evolved from simple cell division - mitosis to complex reproductive systems involving defined sex organs and sex. Some animals possess both sex organs while most higher organisms have just one. Some mutations allow people to possess both sex organs.

Let me break this down.

1. In organisms that engage in sexual reproduction, the systems for such reproduction will have to be complete and complimentary in both sexes for any such reproduction to occur.

2. It is argued by evolutionists that the evolution of such systems takes millions of years.

3. During those "millions of years" how was the organism carrying on it's reproduction so as to arrive at the completeness of the very systems that it would have needed to reproduce and evolve during that same period?

Are we clear now?

DeepSight:
Let me break this down.

1. In organisms that engage in sexual reproduction, the systems for such reproduction will have to be complete and complimentary in both sexes for any such reproduction to occur.

2. It is argued by evolutionists that the evolution of such systems takes millions of years.

3. During those "millions of years" how was the organism carrying on it's reproduction so as to arrive at the completeness of the very systems that it would have needed to reproduce and evolve during that same period?

Are we clear now?

I am still at loss as to what you are talking about. Let me ask you one question; do amphibians like toad that just sit on the back of its female as its form of sex have complete reproductive system?

What of plants? Is the movement of male sex gamete to female ones by external factors such as insects or wind complete systems?

Reproductive systems are wide and varied - from simple ones to more complex systems.

It's a pity you have very little knowledge of evolution, and you are making the same false assumptions religious deniers make.
Evolution does not take millions of years, micro evolution takes place between every generation. Its just that the micro evolution are usually too inconsequential to present any difference. It's hundreds or even thousands of these micro evolutions, particularly those that is beneficial to the specie that results in significant changes. This can often lead to the emergence of whole new species.