₦airaland Forum

AngelicBeing:
let me buzz into this discussion, they said that Apostle Peter was the First Catholic Pope, Apostle Peter was married, but how come all the other subsequent Popes that came after Peter till date, were not married, abi na fabricated story, and there's no scriptural backing, to suggest that Apostle Peter was the First Pope, abi this are all man made church doctrine, and again we have just the 5 Fold Ministry, nothing like Cardinal, ArcBishop or Pope etc

btoks:
Yes, Peter was married but he also left everything to follow Jesus(Luke 18:28).

The term "Pope" ( meaning father) wasn’t used for Peter during his lifetime, but he was clearly the cheif Apostle and recognised as such by the early Church. He ended up in the See of Rome( and matryed there) thus his successors there and the office( called Bishop of Rome) became what we now call the papacy.

Clerical celibacy is a separate discipline (not doctrine) that developed later for pastoral and spiritual reasons, especially in the Latin rite. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of Peter’s role or apostolic succession.

Also titles like Pope, Cardinal, Archbishop are part of the Church’s natural development.The early church grew like the mustard seed Jesus spoke about, starting small but gradually developing structure and discipline over time to serve believers.

Jesus established a Church that required continuity.It aas guided by the Holy Spirit, rooted in scripture, Sacred Tradition and apostolic succession.
Obviously, you wouldn't get all this if you go by sola scriptura.

btoks:
you want to discard church father evidence!! ?

btoks:
How exactly do you believe in the bible books?

btoks:
This is where Sola Scriptura falls short. Bible doesn’t claim to give us every single detail historical detail

btoks:
I'll urge you to keep researching with an open mind and you'll find that Christian history is much deeper and richer than Sola Scriptura allows.

AngelicBeing:
let me buzz into this discussion, they said that Apostle Peter was the First Catholic Pope, Apostle Peter was married, but how come all the other subsequent Popes that came after Peter till date, were not married, abi na fabricated story, and there's no scriptural backing, to suggest that Apostle Peter was the First Pope, abi this are all man made church doctrine, and again we have just the 5 Fold Ministry, nothing like Cardinal, ArcBishop or Pope etc

Dtruthspeaker:
Yes.
Exactly how APC is accused of Lying and an APC supporter comes to say that it is not a lie but is true because Oshiomhole said it.
That is a very very bad evidence.



Exactly how we read the posts here and we know those which are true from those which are stories.



It is not reasonable for anyone to imagine that the bible would state every single detail of the lives of the people it reported. Eg that one day Peter had a runny nose or that Joseph had to poop!

We all have the common sense to fill in the gaps. So don't make it look like we are contending based on sola scriptura or ex sola scriptura.

The argument is based on simple ordinary natural and common sense and the validity of the evidence given.

And evidence you have given which is basically hearsay evidence is a very very bad and invalid one.



My mind is open but any claim made must be backed by valid and irrefutable evidence exactly how comments demand proof from posters here before their claims are accepted as true

Dtruthspeaker:
Abraham had a wife when God called him, Christianity is not determined by marital status.

Thus it is reasonable to hindsee and state that Peter and the disciples were married.

But if anyone comes out to say that Judas married one ibo girl from Aguleri, serious solid proof must be shown.

That is the same thing here. Catholics need to show valid proof of how an konk Isrealite born and bred only in Isreal and who speaks only the Jew tongue will now leave the land of his birth and safety to go to his enemy's land to live there.

Exactly like saying that because of Islamization of Nigeria, Lazarus Mouka will now leave Nigeria to go and live in Afghanistan. Is this possible?

Dtruthspeaker:
Abraham had a wife when God called him, Christianity is not determined by marital status.

Thus it is reasonable to hindsee and state that Peter and the disciples were married.

But if anyone comes out to say that Judas married one ibo girl from Aguleri, serious solid proof must be shown.

That is the same thing here. Catholics need to show valid proof of how an konk Isrealite born and bred only in Isreal and who speaks only the Jew tongue will now leave the land of his birth and safety to go to his enemy's land to live there.

Exactly like saying that because of Islamization of Nigeria, Lazarus Mouka will now leave Nigeria to go and live in Afghanistan. Is this possible?

btoks:
Your analogy is very weak here and continues to reveal a very limited understanding of how things worked in early Christianity.and the fact that Peter met our Lord Jesus.

If you insist on “solid proof” for everything, then you’re opening a can of worms that cuts through the very heart of the Christian faith. For example, where’s your “solid proof” that:

Jesus turned water into wine?
Peter walked on water?
Lazarus was raised from the dead?pl
The resurrection happened?
The Holy Spirit descended like tongues of fire?

These are all accepted as truth by faith and supported by historical witness and Church tradition not by modern courtroom style evidence...

AngelicBeing:
Hian, LoL at Judas Iscariot got married to an igbo girl and Lazarous Muoka leaves Nigeria to be the Head of Pentecostal churches in Afghanistan, Hehehehe, una go kill person with laugh for nairaland Hahahaha 😂🤣

Dtruthspeaker:
Exactly! Dat na why the Catholic claim no make sense at all. E no enter.

btoks:
I do hope you'll keep an open mind and research deeply with solid responses, as the "common sense" argument or resorting to modern comparison with APC or saying "bad bad hearsay......" holds absolutely no water against historical fact.
I've given you evidence for why Peter was in Rome, you instead say common sense says he wasn't there. I stated to you that you will find no early church proof of your claim. A strong evidence would be early christians or any groups at the time stating that Peter wasn't in Rome. Even the Eastern Orthodox knows Peter was in Rome.
You've also given a very weak argument as to why you believe the bible books at all!!! I'll just repeat, this book didn't fall out of the sky. Research and find out information.

btoks:
A strong evidence would be early christians or any groups at the time stating that Peter wasn't in Rome.

AngelicBeing:
l concur with you, for instance, l can Walk into any Pentecostal or Charismatic church and receive HOLY COMMUNION but I won't be allowed to receive Holy communion in Catholic Church except l am a Catholic, like seriously,

Dtruthspeaker:
This is you even being honest. I took their holy communion a coupla times even when I never went to catechism classes, and baptism and confirmation.

I felt then that as long as I had chosen Catholic church and I attended mass then I could take it. And I took it. And I never even went for Saturday's confessions.

And funny in my days they did not say those prohibitory words of "if you are not baptized in the Catholic church..."

And in all these, me and my fellow Catholic friends and people remained the same evil people we all know who NO ONE WOULD CALL A CHRISTIAN!

So, in truth, all these are sheets.

The bible makes it clear who a good person is and those who are not.

An open mind does not mean that every thing should enter it.

Logic and Reason dictates that only valid things should enter one's mind.

And hearsay evidence has always been an evidence nobody accepts.

And when a matter is True it is proven by valid and irrefutable evidence.

You gave no evidence. All you did was to say that someone else eg Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Eusebius said that...

And that is classical bad hearsay evidence.

Of which I investigated your Eusebius and did a thread on him, and guess what? He does not exist.

https://www.nairaland.com/8412421/see-catholic-lie-man-said#135173890

So, here we have one of your witnesses who claimed Peter died upside down, yet, no one can find him.

When a person caught with stolen property points out a witness whom nobody can find, no one believes his testimony and he is taking as the thief.

Same thing here

I don't think it has occurred to you that Christ never left the land of Isreal yet His Words have reached Ekwulobia. So also it is not necessary for Peter to leave Isreal before the Roman ruler Constantine decided to subscribe to the little Isrealite religion called Christianity

Dtruthspeaker:
This is you even being honest. I took their holy communion a coupla times even when I never went to catechism classes, and baptism and confirmation.

I felt then that as long as I had chosen Catholic church and I attended mass then I could take it. And I took it. And I never even went for Saturday's confessions.

And funny in my days they did not say those prohibitory words of "if you are not baptized in the Catholic church..."

And in all these, me and my fellow Catholic friends and people remained the same evil people we all know who NO ONE WOULD CALL A CHRISTIAN!

So, in truth, all these are sheets.

The bible makes it clear who a good person is and those who are not.

AngelicBeing:
l concur with you, for instance, l can Walk into any Pentecostal or Charismatic church and receive HOLY COMMUNION but I won't be allowed to receive Holy communion in Catholic Church except l am a Catholic, like seriously,

btoks:
It's a serious matter, Catholic Church views the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ after consecration of bread and wine, not merely a symbol. By receiving it, you're effectively professing belief in that teaching. Therefore, for the sake of maintaining the sanctity of the Eucharist and out of respect for both your own conscience and the Church’s doctrine it’s reserved for those who fully accept that belief.

If you wish to receive in the catholic church, then complete your 1st holy communion sacrament in the Catholic church and you may receive at every mass if you wish (provided you're in a state of grace).Shikena

btoks:
May your gloating not lead you into deeper error. Taking the Body of Christ unworthily is not a light matter, it’s something scripture directly warns against in 1 Cor 11:27–29:

Mocking or dismissing it doesn’t erase the gravity of the act .

btoks:
I laugh cheesy cheesy because what you just called hearsay is exactly what historians call primary and early secondary source material.

btoks:
As you don't know, Eusebius of Caesarea was a real historical figure known as the Father of Church History(260 to 339AD) and was Bishop of Caesarea
His most famous work(Ecclesiastical History) was written around 311AD and specifically mentions Peter’s martyrdom in Rome.
If you're saying Eusebius "does not exist," then I seriously question the integrity of your so-called investigation.

btoks:
Chai see the height of taken events for granted!!
Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world. And they did.

AngelicBeing:
, ,

If you are not a Catholic, they won't allow you to take their communion , nawao

Dtruthspeaker:
That is only of course for persons looking to take the Catholic grace like a person looking for Wike's grace will now go to El Rufai's house.

AngelicBeing:
Hahaha, Wikes Grace but going to Elrufais house, hahaha, Una go kill person with laugh for nairaland Hahahaha 😂

Dtruthspeaker:
My intention is not to gloat but to point out that the Catholic system is not of God. Sorry, it had to be said.

If you remember, it was also preached that you must eat the communion so that a person must be saved, and I wanted to be saved, so no one can say that I took it unworthily.

And the bottom line is that, I saw I was still in hot trouble and still the same person I was even when I had not taken it.

And if not that I already knew that the bible was true and that I have already seen God first hand, this disappointment would have definitely made me stupidly say that there is no God.

Only to grow up and see that the majority of atheists are people who grew up in the Catholic as I also saw it was here in Nairaland too and I even raised a thread on it.

https://www.nairaland.com/7600700/why-catholic-church-evil-majority#121547568

So, you see, any observant person can see that, that church is doing a lot of under ground evil for a place already marked with doing so many evil atrocities, so how can anyone not reasonable think and see that they must also resort to Lying? Of which it is now known that they are capable of Lying eg

The Herald-Mail
https://www.heraldmailmedia.com
Lies and cover-ups: Catholic church in Pennsylvania had ' ...16 Aug 2018 — Lies and cover-ups: Catholic church in Pennsylvania had 'playbook'

So, how can any reasonable person not think that they could be Lying in many other things they said?

Dtruthspeaker:
My investigation took me through the road of Eusebius and Jerome whom because both are bearing Eusebius, I thought that they are the same person. But now I see your Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote ecclesiastical history as different from Jerome who wrote Vulgate.

And it is Jerome who is from Stridon who has that question mark as determined by the Jewish Encyclopaedia.

Meanwhile I was searching for the person (witness) who said that Peter was killed in an upside down cross to see if he answered the questions I have to ask

Thus you have taken me to my target and now the question follows your Eusebius of Caesarea, which is

When and where Peter was arrested?

Before whom (court) was he tried and found guilty of death;

Who and who was there when all these was happening?

How did he get to be there to see all these things he claimed he saw happen?

There is no independent report anywhere else of anyone corroborating any of these things.

So how come he is the only one who said he saw all these things?

And the reports do not say that he is the hangman/execution nor that it was his house or land that was used as the execution grounds, so how did he get a "private viewing" which nobody saw

Like the murder of The LORD, Jesus Christ, executions are always carried out in public, so how come Peter's own was not done in the open public so that there would be many witnesses, if it is to be believed?

Dtruthspeaker:
Did they not already go into the world when Jesus sent them Mathew 10?

Did it take Adeboye to be physically present in every place where the Redeemed Church is before they could establish his church there? Please do not catfish.

btoks:
You can't judge the entire Catholic Church by the failings of a few. With more than 1.3billion members, some do leave and sadly become atheists but that happens in all denominations...

btoks:
Wow, showing up after soup don ready!! Where were the Adeboyes when early missionaries were trekking through deserts, facing beatings, shipwrecks and prison just to preach Christ? There wasn’t modern evangelism. No phones. No planes. No hotels. Just raw faith and fire.

Don’t compare today’s Redeemed convenience to the grind of the early church. The foundation was laid in pain.

btoks:
Come on!! You’re asking for a level of evidence that even the most documented ancient events can’t meet. We’re talking about the 1st century, when written records were rare, mostly lost and controlled by the ruling class. If we applied your standard to all history, we’d have to throw out most of what we know about ancient history...

Dtruthspeaker:
Sorry, I can and do because even before I judged them others have been doing so but I did not think that their judgement was right until I did my own check.

And of course my judgement is not restricted to the Catholic church alone. But the topic is about the Catholic church, so my comments here are restricted to them alone.

And sadly it is the other way round, only a scant few people of whatever religious preference can truly be described as Christ likes. And as people have overflogged every other person falls short

https://www.nairaland.com/7943406/there-almost-no-true-christians#127522939

https://www.nairaland.com/1257876/went-nigeria-could-not-find#15247650