₦airaland Forum

QuinQ:
➜The main charge against Christ was that He was king of the Jews
➜and that's what Pilate ask him "Are you you king of the Jews?)

The charges against Jesus Christ of Israel were fabricated by the High Priest and his cohorts though, since Jesus Christ never in fact told them that He was the King of the Jews. However, by claiming to be the Messiah, it means He is the promised Forever King of Israel(Jews included).

2. My mistake! He did say to Pilate that he was right.

Kobojunkie:
I recall asking you a question earlier, which you conveniently refused to answer.
This is really simple!

Oga, it was illegal to advocate any religion that ran counter to Rome! That's also why even Christ himself was crucified!

Kobojunkie:
2. My mistake! He did say to Pilate that he was right.

Now we're finally getting somewhere. Now if even Christ was crucified for his beliefs how much more the apostles?
Do you now accept they were indeed persecuted right from the begining

QuinQ:
➜Oga, it was illegal to advocate any religion that runs counter to Rome! ➜That's also why even Christ himself was crucified!

Unlawful customs were against the law, and so it was not persecution.

2. Jesus Christ of Israel was not crucified for that purpose at all. Rather, the high priest and his gang fabricated lies against Jesus Christ of Israel, and then handed Him over to Rome as one who sought to usurp the Jewish throne. Pilate and Herod did not find Jesus Christ guilty of the crimes leveled against Him and deserving of the death penalty.

13 Pilate called all the people together with the leading priests and the Jewish leaders.
14 He said to them, “You brought this man to me. You said he was trying to change the people. But I judged him before you all and have not found him guilty of the things you say he has done.
15 Herod didn’t find him guilty either. He sent him back to us. Look, he has done nothing bad enough for the death penalty.
16 So, after I punish him a little, I will let him go free.”
17
18 But they all shouted, “Kill him! Let Barabbas go free!”
19 (Barabbas was a man who was in jail for starting a riot in the city and for murder.)
20 Pilate wanted to let Jesus go free. So again Pilate told them that he would let him go.
21 But they shouted again, “Kill him! Kill him on a cross!”
22 A third time Pilate said to the people, “Why? What wrong has he done? He is not guilty. I can find no reason to kill him. So I will let him go free after I punish him a little.”
23 But the people continued to shout. They demanded that Jesus be killed on a cross. Their shouting got so loud that
24 Pilate decided to give them what they wanted.
25 They wanted Barabbas to go free—the one who was in jail for starting a riot and for murder. Pilate let Barabbas go free. And he handed Jesus over to be killed. This is what the people wanted. - Luke 23 vs 13 - 25

With Jesus Christ of Israel, there was no religion. His accusers were the Jews. They simply used Rome to accomplish their hateful acts against Him.

QuinQ:
➜Now we're finally getting somewhere. Now if even Christ was crucified for his beliefs how much more the apostles?
➜ Do you now accept they were indeed persecuted right from the begining

Try to stay on track! Recall instead that the argument has been that Jesus Christ of Israel and His disciples were persecuted, not by Rome, but by their fellow Jews.

2. You seem to have lost track of your argument if you indeed asking me this. 😂😂😂😂

Kobojunkie:
Unlawful customs were against the law, and so it was not persecution.

2. Jesus Christ of Israel was not crucified for that purpose at all. Rather, the high priest and his gang fabricated lies against Jesus Christ of Israel, and then handed Him over to Rome as one who sought to usurp the Jewish throne. Pilate and Herod did not find Jesus Christ guilty of the crimes leveled against Him and deserving of the death penalty.
With Jesus Christ of Israel, there was no religion. His accusers were the Jews. They simply used Rome to accomplish their hateful acts against Him.

This guy! Can't you understand that anything can be made illegal?? The illegality or legality is NOT what makes persecution!. If they pass a law you can't practice your religion, that's persecution despite it's against the law!

QuinQ:
➜This guy! Can't you understand that anything can be made illegal??
➜ The illegality or legality is NOT what makes persecution!.
➜ If they pass a law you can't practice your religion, that's persecution despite it's against the law!

1. Nonsense!

2. The legal codes in Rome were not easily cooked up like what you have today in Nigeria.

3. The law was in place before Paul and Silas showed up in Philippi. There was no persecution.

Kobojunkie:
1. Nonsense!

2. The legal codes in Rome were not easily cooked up like what you have today in Nigeria.

3. The law was in place before Paul and Silas showed up in Philippi. There was no persecution.

Kobojunkie:
Try to stay on track! Recall instead that the argument has been that Jesus Christ of Israel and His disciples were persecuted, not by Rome, but by their fellow Jews.

2. You seem to have lost track of your argument if you indeed asking me this. 😂😂😂😂

Oga, why not do some research instead of these baseless arguments. At least just use GOOGLE.
Local persecution of Christians (as with Paul and Silas) were already rife before Claudius ordered Jews out of Rome about 40 AD due to someone named "Chrestus" (Jesus). Then Nero intensified it starting 54 AD.
Do some research just for your own knowledge not for argument.

Another thing, you keep writing "Jesus of Israel" when it has been clearly shown to you that it is actually "Jesus of the Jews". If you must write "Jesus of the" then you must write that, otherwise leave it as just "Jesus", which is what he truly is - Jesus of mankind!

I feel like you guys are just arguing semantics.
Two differing opinions:
Kobo junkie's is that it's already against the law so it's not persecution with the underlying assumption that persecution simply means people are doing their thing which is not against the law yet you're harassing/killing/jailing people for it.

another is the other guy that roman making practicing Christianity against the law so they can be punished is just persecution.

But who's right? According to ICC persecution simply means you because it goes against their fundamental human right of freedom of identity and religion. even if that go against the national law or not.

now back to the time of roman. Well roman actually don't really have strict rules on what religion the citizen practice. we know they even allowed Judaism to exist and didn't persecute them. Perhaps because Judaist were not going about looking for followers among roman citizens. I think they allowed Christianity to exist without making it unlawful for a while when it's just small sect but later make it unlawful to practice.
I don't know if it's already unlawful or not during that bible scene. But if we are to follow the meaning of persecution as we know it now, then the other guy is right. It's persecution because it goes against their fundamental right of identity and religion irrespective of whether it's against roman law or not.

I guess it all depends on whether you personally believe the fundamental human right should be superior to the national law. Or even if any human has any innate fundamental right to begin with.

broIZ:
I guess it all depends on whether you personally believe the fundamental human right should be superior to the national law. Or even if any human has any innate fundamental right to begin with.

These are 21st-century ideas you are spewing, abeg!

broIZ:
I feel like you guys are just arguing semantics.
Two differing opinions:
Kobo junkie's is that it's already against the law so it's not persecution with the underlying assumption that persecution simply means people are doing their thing which is not against the law yet you're harassing/killing/jailing people for it.

another is the other guy that roman making practicing Christianity against the law so they can be punished is just persecution.

But who's right? According to ICC persecution simply means you because it goes against their fundamental human right of freedom of identity and religion. even if that go against the national law or not.

now back to the time of roman. Well roman actually don't really have strict rules on what religion the citizen practice. we know they even allowed Judaism to exist and didn't persecute them. Perhaps because Judaist were not going about looking for followers among roman citizens. I think they allowed Christianity to exist without making it unlawful for a while when it's just small sect but later make it unlawful to practice.
I don't know if it's already unlawful or not during that bible scene. But if we are to follow the meaning of persecution as we know it now, then the other guy is right. It's persecution because it goes against their fundamental right of identity and religion irrespective of whether it's against roman law or not.

Thank you, not only that, EVERYONE calls it persecution as in below. Mr Kobojunkie cannot be the only one right while everyone else is wrong!

QuinQ:
➜Oga, why not do some research instead of these baseless arguments. At least just use GOOGLE.
Local persecution of Christians (as with Paul and Silas) were already rife
➜ before Claudius ordered Jews out of Rome about 40 AD due to someone named "Chrestus" (Jesus).
➜ Then Nero intensified it starting 54 AD. Do some research just for your own knowledge not for argument.
➜ Another thing, you keep writing "Jesus of Israel" when it has been clearly shown to you that it is actually "Jesus of the Jews". If you must write "Jesus of the" then you must write that, otherwise leave it as just "Jesus", which is what he truly is - Jesus of mankind!

1. I already posted the research for you to see for yourself. Paul and Silas were accused of being troublemaker Jews, not Christians, telling people that which is unlawful by Roman law.

2. The statement on Claudius says Jews, not Christians, were expelled from Rome. We know that Priscilla and her husband, written of in the Book of Acts, were among those who were expelled during that time. And according to them, it was not a Jesus Christ of Israel situation but a Jewish squabble that led to their eviction.

1 Later, Paul left Athens and went to the city of Corinth.
2 There he met a Jewish man named Aquila, who was born in the country of Pontus.[color=#990099] But he and his wife, Priscilla, had recently moved to Corinth from Italy.[/color] They left Italy because Claudius had given an order for all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to visit Aquila and Priscilla.
3 They were tentmakers, the same as Paul, so he stayed with them and worked with them.-Acts 18 vs 1 - 3

As Jewish Christians were considered a part of the Jewish community at the time, they were also expelled along with the other Jews.

2. As for the fire that razed Rome, it occurred in 64 AD, and if we follow closely the accounts from people such as Tarcitus, himself a Roman official a the time, we arrive at the Christians being chosen as scapegoats for Nero's punishment, not for their belief but for the fact that they were the most hated among the population at the time. It was a case of a bully choosing the most hated of the weak people to pin crimes on.

To get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Chrestians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
- Tacitus' Annals

This isn't persecution. According to Tacitus, they were thrown under the bus because they were the most hated by the other people.

3. All you made clear was your ignorance of Jesus Christ of Israel by your continuous assertion of such ideas like Jesus Christ of Israel only approached Jews, which we have so far shown was not true. Even some among His disciples were likely not even Jews. Jesus Christ of Israel made clear He was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel and not to mankind.

QuinQ:
➜Thank you, not only that, EVERYONE calls it persecution as in below. Mr ... cannot be the only one right while everyone else is wrong!

I am not everyone, and I am not easily fooled by the many religious spins— clearly political propaganda, and attempts made to rewrite history itself— that have been pushed out there for so long on events.

Kobojunkieee:
1. I already posted the research for you to see for yourself. Paul and Silas were accused of being troublemaker Jews, not Christians, telling people that which is unlawful by Roman law.

2. The statement on Claudius says Jews, not Christians, were expelled from Rome. We know that Priscilla and her husband, written of in the Book of Acts, were among those who were expelled during that time. And according to them, it was not a Jesus Christ of Israel situation but a Jewish squabble that led to their eviction.
As Jewish Christians were considered a part of the Jewish community at the time, they were also expelled along with the other Jews.

2. As for the fire that razed Rome, it occurred in 64 AD, and if we follow closely the accounts from people such as Tarcitus, himself a Roman official a the time, we arrive at the Christians being chosen as scapegoats for Nero's punishment, not for their belief but for the fact that they were the most hated among the population at the time. It was a case of a bully choosing the most hated of the weak people to pin crimes on.
This isn't persecution. According to Tacitus, they were thrown under the bus because they were the most hated by the other people.

3. All you made clear was your ignorance of Jesus Christ of Israel by your continuous assertion of such ideas like Jesus Christ of Israel only approached Jews, which we have so far shown was not true. Even some among His disciples were likely not even Jews. Jesus Christ of Israel made clear He was sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel and not to mankind.

Funny guy, still arguing settled matter. You at least concede Christians were hated. So why were Christians hated? And when did this hatred start? And what did this hatred lead to locally. Let me see how you avoid the p-word.

As for your (VERY ANNOYINGLY) always writing Jesus as "Jesus of Israel", you've been shown how he was infact "Jesus of the Jews", how he dealt with the Samaritan woman, and how he spoke to her. Yet you say his dealing with her at all is proof he was also sent to Samaritans - you forget he not only also dealt with the Centurion and the Cananite woman, both gentiles, he performed miracles for them but none for the Samaritan.

Gabrielshow24:
what's your basis for "your truth"? 🤨

There are two kinds of people you'll meet in life. Those who are thirsty for knowledge and are curious to know and those who just wanna bore you with their sophistry for the sole purpose of getting under your skin or make you doubt your stance and beliefs. I just explained a very simple reason for my answer and you're asking me something unrelated. Kinda like the devil asking Eve "has God said...."
Young man I have no answer to your question.

QuinQ:
➜Funny guy, still arguing settled matter.
➜ You at least concede Christians were hated. So why were Christians hated? And when did this hatred start? And what did this hatred lead to locally. Let me see how you avoid the p-word.
➜ As for your (VERY ANNOYINGLY) always writing Jesus as "Jesus of Israel", you've been shown how he was infact "Jesus of the Jews", how he dealt with the Samaritan woman, and how he spoke to her.
➜ Yet you say his dealing with her at all is proof he was also sent to Samaritans -
➜ you forget he not only also dealt with the Centurion and the Cananite woman, both gentiles, he performed miracles for them but none for the Samaritan.

1. What is clear is you seem desperate to claim a win when there is no such thing to be had in this for you, given the lack of evidence.

2. Again, what I have said up to this point, something that has yet to change even now, is that the followers of Jesus Christ — derogatively referred to as Christians at the time and all of them Jews/Israelites— were persecuted, NOT by the Romans but by their fellow JEWS. You keep thinking that ignoring this aspect of my argument would somehow give you the win, but it won't.

The Roman persecution of the Christians happened only after the movement was hijacked by the non-Israelites(mostly Romans) and turned into a religio-political movement, resulting in infighting between the many factions within the movement, and eventually in the state moving in to control their power until it no longer could.

3. Stop lying already! You showed no such thing, given that it is untrue and you know it yourself. 🙄

4. But Jesus Christ did not only did with a Samaritan woman but rather the community of Samaritans in the area. This is clearly documented in John 4 for all to read.

5. The centurion was a Gentile from his own accounts, however, the Canaanite woman was not a Gentile, and she knew this well. This is why she, the Canaanite woman, asked, not for the food meant for the children of the Master, but rather for the crumbs that fell from the Master's table as the Master's children ate their food — miracles are some of these.

broIZ:
I feel like you guys are just arguing semantics. Two differing opinions: Kobo junkie's is that it's already against the law so it's not persecution with the underlying assumption that persecution simply means people are doing their thing which is not against the law yet you're harassing/killing/jailing people for it.
another is the other guy that roman making practicing Christianity against the law so they can be punished is just persecution....

This shows you have not been paying attention to the details of the conversation at all.

https://www.nairaland.com/8433825/jesus/5#135507100

Note here that there are two different groups:
➜ The Israelites-only movement created by Jesus Christ of Israel back in Jerusalem of Judah
➜ and then the non-Israelites led movement, which was a plagiarized(terribly flawed) copy of the original movement.

The original followers of Jesus Christ of Israel, all of them Israelites— beginning with Jesus Christ Himself— were persecuted, not by the Romans but by their fellow Jews. That is what is indicated in Scripture. There is no record that any of the members of this group survived beyond the Last Day of YHWH's Judgement against the nation of Israel(Judah) back in the 1st century AD.

However, after 70 AD and the eventual destruction of Judah around 130 AD, the plagiarized movement, led by non-Israelites mostly of Roman descent, gained ground and adopted for themselves the formerly derogatory term "Christian", and grew their numbers through the spreading of diverse doctrines and traditions in Rome. They were eventually persecuted by others within their movement and eventually by the Roman State.

Kobojunkie:
1. What is clear is you seem desperate to claim a win when there is no such thing to be had in this for you, given the lack of evidence.

2. Again, what I have said up to this point, something that has yet to change even now, is that the followers of Jesus Christ — derogatively referred to as Christians at the time and ALL OF THEM Jews/Israelites— were persecuted, NOT by the Romans but by their fellow JEWS. You keep thinking that ignoring this aspect of my argument would somehow give you the win, but it won't.

The Roman persecution of the Christians happened only after the movement was hijacked by the non-Israelites(mostly Romans) and turned into a religio-political movement, resulting in infighting between the many factions within the movement, and eventually in the state moving in to control their power until it no longer could.

3. Stop lying already! You showed no such thing, given that it is untrue and you know it yourself. 🙄

4. But Jesus Christ did not only did with a Samaritan woman but rather the community of Samaritans in the area. This is clearly documented in John 4 for all to read.

5. The centurion was a Gentile from his own accounts, however, the Canaanite woman was not a Gentile, and she knew this well. This is why she, the Canaanite woman, asked, not for the food meant for the children of the Master, but rather for the crumbs that fell from the Master's table as the Master's children ate their food — miracles are some of these.

Huh? @capitalised/coloured, all of them Jews/Israelites?? So who were Paul and Peter arguing about wether they needed to be circumcised??
Please leave this point, you've lost it. It's been established that early Christians were greatly persecuted by Rome and Romans, nationally and locally. It didn't start after anybody hijacked anything!

Please define Gentile again for us and explain how the centurion was not a Gentile but the Canaanite woman was.

Was how Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman how he spoke to fellow Jews? (Since he was equally sent to them all) - "You Samaritans don't know what you worship, we Jews know what we worship". Was he in the habit of speaking to Samaritans and the woman was surprised he spoke to her? Did you read the part where they said: "...we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.” Note: THE WORLD!!!

QuinQ:
What I mean is, ALL were started and guided by a founder who stayed alive until they were somewhat established, only Christianiy. If you know any denomination or religion that wasn't let's have it.

I don't see how leaving an organised group and possibly a building where they regularly met runs counter to being ascetic.



I just started this thread in Romance section: "Is this man being scammed?":
https://www.nairaland.com/8434719/he-being-scammed#135502582

Will check it sir.
Not being online actively until now

LordReed:
Which organised religion did Krishna leave behind at his death?

Help me ask him Oga mi

QuinQ:
➜Huh? All of them Jews/Israelites??
➜ So who were Paul and Peter arguing about wether they needed to be circumcised??
➜ Please leave this point, you've lost it. It's been established that early Christians were greatly persecuted by Rome and Romans, nationally and locally. It didn't start after anybody hijacked anything!
➜ Please define Gentile again for us and explain how the centurion was not a Gentile but the Canaanite woman was.
➜ Was how Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman how he spoke to fellow Jews (since he was equally sent to them all)? - "You Samaritans don't know what you worship, we Jews know what we wirship". Was he in the habit of speaking to Samaritans and the woman was surprised he spoke to her?
➜ Did you read the part where they said: "...we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.” Note: THE WORLD!!!

Yes, Jews are Israelites after all. And there were also Gentiles— non-Jewish Israelites— also.

2. Their argument has nothing to do with anything since Jesus Christ of Israel never said anything about the need for circumcision. It's like arguing whether one will eat meat or no meat. It means nothing.

3. It is only established for those who prefer the plagiarized religious narratives. There is no evidence that the Romans persecuted the Jesus Christ of Israel movement.

4. The definition of the word comes from Scripture itself, and the term Gentile is used to refer to members of the same family/clan/bloodline inhabiting other nations or homes away from their fatherland. The many examples of the use of the term established beginning in Genesis 10 vs 2 - 5, provide you with all you need to know of the term and its application.

By centurion, I assumed you meant the one spoken of in the book of Acts, to whom an angel appeared, and all the rest. He was an Israelite. The Canaanite woman, however, made certain to expose the fact that she was not one of the Master's children but rather a dog— a non-Israelite —cattempting to eat from the crumbs that fell from the Master's table as His children ate their food. If you have been paying attention, you would note that Jesus Christ of Israel warned His followers not to give that which is Holy — the Gospel — to the dogs, aka the non-Israelites.

The very etymology of the word itself reveals that at its roots, it was used to refer to people of the same family/clan/bloodline, etc. That information has survived to this day despite the many campaigns by those of the religion of Christianity to see it vanish.

5. It is your religious delusions that fuel your biased take on the conversation between Jesus Christ of Israel and the Samaritan woman. I don't see anything remotely wrong with the way He spoke to them. The fact that He went on to spend days with the community further reveals that He held no particular grudge or disdain for them, as your religious glasses would have you believe.

6. That is the same world which in John 3 vs 14 - 18, Jesus Christ had described as the same world that Moses raised the bronze snake to in the Wilderness in Numbers 21. That world is comprised only of the bloodline of Jacob, condemned to die by YHWH.

QuinQ:
😅 I'm sure even you yourself can see you're NOT making sense.
First of all you initially said there was no persecution!
So, Paul and all his inspired letters were made up by Rome. Why again exactly?😆
Then Rome was trying to hijack them but couldn't, (you initially said Rome hijacked them o) so they started persecuting them (you said there was no persecution o) but they kept gaining political power (where and how exactly?). Wow!

This is the acid test for spotting and exposing a lie. When you can't be consistent with your points without bending it to suit your purpose. It's exactly what happened in the garden with Eve when the serpent asked her "had God said...
Hmm
Keep proving him wrong sir

QuinQ:
No mind am. It is because I posted things like this below about his Jehovah's Witnesses cult

Upon all your arguments here all your so called "CHRISTIANS" have run away to leave you with the OP with whom you spoke against JWs.

And by the end instead of agreeing with you OP is better acquainted with an atheist who doesn't even believe in whatever is written in the Bible.

AngelahFlo:
Help me ask him Oga mi

See individuals who have discussed or reasoned with MaxInDHouse in the past:

Nnamdipapa:
Max, do not descend to the levels of these people, and never let them get to you. I have noticed your interactions on NL for years and I see emotional maturity and the way you carry yourself, I have yet to see in the average Pentecostal Christian.

Tayorshd87:
Awesome input 💯
That's true logically

Kingsempires:
I know you and I don't agree on the same christain doctrine but I grab point in some of your preaching
I learned something on this your comment

SeniorMan715:
The way you explain and answer questions, sometimes i wonder if truly you are a human or an angel. You know everything.

Questionnaires:
MAXINDHOUSE is The Only Reasonable Christian That I've Come Across On This Forum That Creates Discourse And Debates Without Trying To Hurt The Emotions of Others No Matter How They Don't Agree With His Philosophy.

Questionnaires:
You Are One of The Smartest Christians on Nairaland and in Nigeria At Large.

CJStarz:
Guy, I just dey reason your talks.
U dey make sense shaaa.
But ur oda brethren wey dey yarn opata here, I go soon reason im matter.
You're trying to prove me wrong in my assertion which I'm beginning to see but that guy is a complete wacko.
Wetin be im name here sef.
Let me check

CJStarz:
Na you wey just convert from Islam be d correct Witness.
Achorlady just dey yarn off point

Mayflowa:
Wow! See Bible scholars! So impressive!

naturefellow:
Amazing! Thanks for the input. Knowledge added reading it.

Treborblue:
Wow insightful thanks very much

shinaola21:
Perfectly said bro 💯

Sojourner2000:
For real... It's hard answering this when I know for sure that the God we are referring to is just an illusion that most humans chose to accept as a reality.
Anyways I wanted to commend you for the hard facts you have been dropping and how you have been tackling responses. I need people like this in real life. Everyone around me is just dumbed down

These aren't JWs o not to talk of JWs who love and cherish me as their fellow believers.

Where are your friends who were quoting me back and forth as if they are interested in the topic of discussion?

QuinQ:
This is beyond laughable. "All Gentiles are Israelites"! What Nonsense! See below.
At least from now on you know not to keep harping "Jesus of Israel" when in actuality if you insist on that, it is "Jesus of Jews"!

Thanks for making him see his folly. In all honesty his kind has been given to delusions that he can't see the truth. Left for me I'll leave him at this point. You've proved your point. You gave him the bait and he took it. How can Gentiles be Israelites? Wow
Again thank you sir
I tried making him see but he kept sticking to his Jesus of Israel ideology.

QuinQ:
Bros, I hope you are not totally dense.
Just being a Christian was against the law, talkless of preaching it. Christianity was illegal, AGAINST THE LAW!!! And you were punished for it, up to execution. That's what persecution means!! jeez!!

This is no different from the analogy of a snake swallowing it's tail. Because they retain not the truth and the Gospel lest the light should shine on them, He (God) gave them over to a reprobate mind.
His mind is given to delusions. No matter how much you argue with the brother, he'll continue to spin yarn after yarn after yarn of delusions thinking he's making sense.
So sad. If he comes at me
I'll just read his reply and not respond.