Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims - Islam (4) - Nairaland
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| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 5:29am On Jun 05, 2025 |
JimRohn:The bottom line is that 1. Every Jew already knew the Holy Spirit as the manifest Everpresent power of God. 2. Every Jew knew that The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent 3. Every Jew knew that the Holy Spirit is NOT an Angel 4. The purpose of Jesus is not to systematically explain Trinity BUT to give us Salvation 5. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to every Believer as a Seal , as a Teacher and an ever-abiding Comforter. Unfortunately, Islam attributes Jibril to be God the Holy Spirit. A clear error of ignorance. Even the heretical JW doesn't think that the Holy Spirit is Jibril BUT an expression for the Power of God. No single Jew believe that the Holy Spirit is an Angel. JimRohn:1. Does it make sense to you that EVERY sin against God has forgiveness EXCEPT Blasphemy against an Angel? Don't forget that Blasphemy against God is also a sin 2. You think it is Normal to associate the name of an Angel with the name of God? 3. So, post resurrection account isn't a real account exactly as your prophet's visit to heaven and seen post living account of Moses and the other prophets account. You forgot that part of Allah's deception was to give a fake resurrected Jesus to the disciples so that they would believe that it was the real Jesus crucified. You will need to prove explicitly that the Holy Spirit both in the Old testament and the New Testament is Jibril to convince even yourself, otherwise, you are in error. JimRohn:Yes, Spirit in Hebrew is synonymous to Air or Wind and it describes an entity that is unseen but exists because of his power to change things. And this is used as a Description for God's presence and power as you cannot see God but you feel and experience His power and presence. Even Angels are made of spirit (Gods nature). Only that they are limited, thus the distinction "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit of God" representing the infinite God. Does the spirit moving over the water mean that at creation, Jibril was moving over the waters? So, In Islam, with evidence, what is the Spirit? JimRohn:Just be truthful to yourself: Is there any creature in Islam either Man, Angels, Animals, Jinn or things that has even one of the three attributes of Omnipresence, Omnipotence and Omniscience? JimRohn:Both Quran verses you quoted NEVER said anywhere that Jibril was the Holy Spirit. This was an assumption by interpolation of Muslim scholars in both Qur'an 16:192 and Qur'an 2:87 that spirit is Jibril. Isn't it obvious to you? Is there a single verse that called Jibril the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an? Secondly, with evidence from the Qur'an Are Angels Spirit in Islam? Ps 104:4: "Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" If angels are not spirits, how can Jibril be a spirit? JimRohn:No sir, The phrase is copy of the bible which was misunderstood by Mohammed the Ummi. Qur'an 15:29 "And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down prostrating yourselves before him." Qur'an 38:72 "So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down to him prostrate." Did Allah breathe Jibril into Adam? JimRohn:So. We see that even though Mohammed didn't know what the spirit is AND Jibril was not stated by Allah to be a spirit, the only Spirit clearly stated in the Qur'an is Jesus. Forget about divinity! How is Jesus who is a Man also a Spirit? Who else did Allah explicitly describe as a spirit in the Qur'an. Is this not a proof that your understanding is abysmal with respect to spiritual things? Quran 10:94 says: "So if you (O Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters." But you refuse to ask, why wouldn't you mix up spiritual things? JimRohn:Tell me the truth, Is Christianity taken ONLY from Jesus or ALL the prophets of God including Jesus? What is the two powers of heaven according to early Jewish Rabbis ? How can you ask me to leave 1. The infinity Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient God for Allah who isn't . Does Allah have the power to Enter his creation without creasing to be Almighty? Can Allah be in heaven and the earth equally simultaneously? 2. Guarantee for paradise for a guarantee for at least a time in Hell Fire Quran 19:71-72 says that ALL Muslims must enter hell as a decree of Allah at least temporarily 3. The Way and Truth for one who doesn't know what will befall him Quran 46:9 "Say, 'I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am only a clear warner.'" compared with John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Satanists are monotheistic (their God is satan) Muslims are monotheistic (their God is Allah) Judaism are monotheistic (their God is YHWH) Christians are monotheistic (their God is YHWH) Exodus 3:14-15 “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ And he said, ‘Say this to the people of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.’ God also said to Moses, ‘Say to the Israelites, “YHWH, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob— has sent me to you.” This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation.’” Mohammed seems not know that the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is YHWH! Is any of Allah's 99 names YHWH? |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by gohf(op): 10:10am On Jun 05, 2025 |
JimRohn:it doesn't justify you questioning the authenticity of what is written because of your observation of the some ambiguous theological claims which doesn't align with what's written. What you call foundational tenet is a mere fabrication that is obvious to those who read the text and research what the first church believed and taught, except one is too lazy to do that. But are you different from them, they take part of what is written and accept that to be true and you do the same, in directly calling it all into question. They claim Jesus is God which is an error, you claim that Jesus isn't the son of God which is also an error, non of which the Tanakh nor the Bible agree to. Proving a lie is a lie doesn't make another lie true |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 11:19am On Jun 05, 2025 |
TenQ:Thank you for your detailed reply. I will address your points in a structured manner, maintaining clarity, mutual respect, and fidelity to the sources. 1. On What “Every Jew Knew” About the Holy Spirit You claim: > "Every Jew knew the Holy Spirit as the manifest, ever-present power of God" "Every Jew knew the Holy Spirit is NOT an angel" This is an assertion, not a demonstrable historical fact. Let’s clarify: The Hebrew term ruach (רוּחַ) means breath, wind, or spirit—and has a wide semantic range, often referring to God's power or influence, not a distinct person of a divine Trinity. Ancient Jews did not interpret ruach as a divine person co-equal with God. Jewish theology remains strictly Unitarian to this day. Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is the Holy Spirit described as a person or as God Himself in a separate identity. Even respected Trinitarian scholars concede that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Old Testament, and certainly not in explicit form from Jesus. If "every Jew" supposedly knew the Holy Spirit is divine, then why did no Jewish sect—not Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes—ever teach a triune God? 2. Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit ≠ Proof of Divinity You asked: > “Does it make sense to you that EVERY sin against God has forgiveness EXCEPT blasphemy against an Angel?” Let’s clarify what Jesus actually said: > “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven...” (Matthew 12:32) First, not all unforgivable sins imply divinity of the offended party. In Islam, hypocrisy (nifāq) and attributing lies to God’s messenger are considered grave and possibly unforgivable—yet we do not say the Prophet is divine. Jesus himself is said to be insultable (“a word against the Son of Man”), yet the Holy Spirit is not. That does not make the Holy Spirit superior to Jesus, let alone divine. It simply underscores the gravity of rejecting divine inspiration, not the divinity of the agent. This is a functional warning about resisting revelation—not a doctrinal proof of the Trinity. 3. Matthew 28:19 – Is Listing Names Equal to Equality in Essence? You said: > “You think it is normal to associate the name of an angel with the name of God?” The verse states: > “…baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Here’s the issue: Merely mentioning three entities together does not prove they are equal in essence. One could say “in the name of God, the King, and the Prophet,” and that would not imply ontological unity or divinity of all three. No verse from Jesus ever says “The Holy Spirit is God,” “Worship the Holy Spirit,” or “God is Three-in-One.” That is a post-biblical formulation, not a teaching of Christ. Furthermore, the authenticity of this Trinitarian baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 is widely questioned by scholars, as early Christian baptism in Acts was done only in Jesus’ name (e.g., Acts 2:38). Many scholars see the Trinitarian wording as a later editorial addition. 4. The Islamic Understanding of the Holy Spirit: Who Is Jibril? You claim: > “No single verse in the Qur’an calls Jibril the Holy Spirit.” Let’s present the evidence directly: Qur’an 2:97 > “Say, the Holy Spirit (Rūḥ al-Qudus) has brought it down from your Lord in truth…” Qur’an 2:97 > “Whoever is an enemy to Jibril—it is he who has brought it [the Qur’an] down upon your heart by permission of Allah…” From this, classical scholars (e.g., Al-Ṭabarī, Ibn Kathīr) conclude that Jibril is the Holy Spirit, because both are described as the one who brings revelation. If: Rūḥ al-Qudus brings down revelation Jibrīl brings down revelation Then: Rūḥ al-Qudus = Jibrīl. This is not "ignorant interpolation" but logical inference from explicit text. 5. Are Angels “Spirit” in Islam? You cite Psalm 104:4: “He makes His angels spirits...” In Islam: Angels are created from light (ḥadīth: Muslim 2996). The Qur’an describes Jibril as Rūḥ al-Amīn (The Trustworthy Spirit) in 26:193, and Rūḥ in 78:38 and 19:17. So while not every angel is labeled “spirit” (rūḥ), Jibril is repeatedly called both angel and spirit—fitting the role of Holy Spirit (Rūḥ al-Qudus). Thus, your objection that "if angels are not spirits, Jibril cannot be a spirit" is both biblically and Qur’anically inconsistent. 6. “Breathed into Adam My Spirit” – Is Jibril Breathed into Adam? You ask: > “Did Allah breathe Jibril into Adam?” Of course not. The Qur’anic phrase: > “…breathed into him from My Spirit (min rūḥī)” (15:29, 38:72) This does not mean a piece of God or Jibril entered Adam. In classical Arabic, “My” (rūḥī) is an honorific possessive, not literal possession. The Ka‘bah is called “My House” (Baytī), yet no Muslim believes God resides there. It means Adam was honored with a special soul created by God, not that he shares God's nature. 7. Jesus as “Spirit from God” – Does That Make Him Divine? > “…and His Word which He directed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him…” (Qur’an 4:171) This simply means Jesus was created directly by God’s command (kun). Even Adam is referred to as being created by God’s command, yet no Muslim (or Jew) claims Adam is divine. In Islam, the term “Spirit from Him” does not imply divinity but honor. Everything is from God, yet not everything is part of God. 8. On Qur’an 10:94 – “Ask the People of the Book” This verse does not indicate doubt. It addresses hypothetical uncertainty for the Prophet’s audience as a rhetorical device. Even Ibn Kathīr and Al-Qurtubī explain: this is not a command of reliance on Jews/Christians, but a confirmation that the Qur'an is in harmony with previous revelation. 9. On Hell, Salvation, and God’s Nature You said: > “Christians have a guarantee of paradise, Muslims go to hell (Qur’an 19:71)” Let’s clarify: Qur’an 19:71–72 does not say all Muslims stay in Hell. It says everyone passes over it (the Sirāt), but the righteous are saved: > “Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees.” As for Christianity, the guarantee of paradise is only given in Pauline theology, not from Jesus. Jesus warned even believers: > “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 7:21) 10. Is Allah = YHWH? You stated: > “Is any of Allah’s 99 Names YHWH?” The word “YHWH” is a specific Hebrew proper name; “Allah” is the universal Arabic name for the One God, used by Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians to this day. The Qur’an refers to God as Ilāhukum wāḥid — "Your God is One" — consistent with the Shema of Judaism. Names differ linguistically across cultures. Even English speakers say "God" instead of "YHWH." If a name must be phonetically identical across languages to refer to the same God, then non-Hebrew speakers have never worshipped the God of Abraham—a clearly flawed claim. 11. Final Remarks You ask: > “Should I leave the omnipotent, omnipresent God of Christianity for Allah?” Let’s be frank: The Trinity was never taught explicitly by Jesus. The divinity of the Holy Spirit is not declared by Jesus. Monotheism in Islam is crystal-clear, unambiguous, and consistent with all previous prophets. Islam teaches God is above His creation, not bound by space, and has full knowledge, power, and mercy—without becoming a man or entering the world physically. We invite you to return to the pure monotheism of Abraham—worshiping the One, Eternal God without division, partners, or incarnation. > Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Absolute. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him. (Qur’an 112:1–4) Let us continue in respectful dialogue, seeking truth—not victory. BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 1:07pm On Jun 05, 2025 |
gohf:Dear gohf, Thank you for your response. I value thoughtful dialogue, and I appreciate your willingness to continue this exchange. However, there are a few critical points in your reply that deserve closer examination, both theologically and logically. 1. You Say I Shouldn't Question What’s Written — But Then You Do Exactly That You criticized me for questioning the Trinity and the divinity of the Holy Spirit, stating that I am "calling into question" what is written. Yet in the same breath, you yourself deny what mainstream Christianity holds to be written doctrine — namely, that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is divine. You even call these “errors.” So let us be clear: I am not arbitrarily rejecting Scripture. I am asking for clarity and consistency: If the Trinity is a revealed truth, why is it never clearly stated by Jesus? If the Holy Spirit is God, why did Jesus never explicitly say so? If you, like me, reject man-made theological fabrications, then we are on common ground in affirming that truth must be based on what God's messengers actually taught, not what later councils or theologians formulated. 2. I Do Not Cherry-Pick or Misrepresent Scripture — I Question Interpretations You implied that Muslims “take part of what is written” and ignore the rest. Respectfully, this is inaccurate. What we question is not the text itself, but certain interpretations that conflict with reason, internal consistency, and the words of Jesus himself. For example: Jesus prays to God (Matthew 26:39). If he is God, to whom is he praying? He says the Father is greater than him (John 14:28). How can God be lesser than God? He says he does not know the hour (Mark 13:32). Can God be ignorant? These are not minor theological quibbles. They go to the heart of divine identity and the coherence of Christian doctrine. 3. You Deny the Trinity and Say Others Are in Error — So What Do You Believe? You stated that the claims that Jesus is God and that he is not the Son of God are both errors. This is confusing. If Jesus is not God, but also not merely a servant or prophet of God, then what is he? Are you saying he is the Son of God but not divine? Or that he is a special being without divinity? If so, then where do you ground that view scripturally? As Muslims, our view is consistent and grounded in both reason and revelation: > “Indeed, the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of God… So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say ‘Three.’ Stop — it is better for you. God is only one God.” (Qur’an 4:171) We affirm what Jesus taught: worship of the One, indivisible God, the same God of Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets. 4. One Lie Does Not Make Another True — But Truth Must Be Distinct from Both I completely agree with your final statement: “Proving a lie is a lie doesn’t make another lie true.” That’s a valid and important principle. But the Islamic position is not simply a "rejection" of Christian theology — it is a positive affirmation of a pure monotheism that is: Rational Consistent with the prophetic tradition Free from internal contradiction Reaffirmed and clarified in the final revelation, the Qur’an. We are not trading one “fabrication” for another. We are calling for a return to what all prophets preached: the worship of the One true God, without partners, persons, or incarnations. Final Thought If you believe that later Christian theology misunderstood or distorted the original message, then perhaps we can agree that something purer, simpler, and more consistent must have come before. And that is precisely what Islam claims to restore — the original, unambiguous monotheism of Jesus and all the prophets. I welcome further discussion if it can be based on Scripture, reason, and mutual respect. Warm regards, Jimrohn BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by gohf(op): 6:28pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
Dear jimrohn, You are confused, Warm regards BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse 1 Like |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 6:50pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
I am sorry, I didn't know how I missed this post of yours JimRohn:The point is: Starting from Moses to Isaiah, to David to Solomon, which among the Jews remotely thought that the Holy Spirit was an Angel? Islam is wrong! JimRohn:This wasn't the point. The point is: Does it make sense that Blasphemy against an Angel has no forgiveness either in this world or the next to come? JimRohn:If I understand you, it is Halal to say: In the Name of Allah, Mohammed and Jibril do your good deeds? Jesus is supposed to be a Muslim, remember! JimRohn:I challenged you to supply me verses from Allah that Jibril is the Holy spirit and the best you could do was to refer not even to Mohammed but prophet Al-Tabari and prophet Ibn Kathir!? Please listen to yourself. Do you take your religion from Allah and Mohammed or from Ibn Kathir and Al-Tabari. My challenge remains. Otherwise, define in consistency terms "the spirit"! Why? Allah breathe of his spirit into Adam Jesus is a Spirit from Allah Jibril is also a spirit! JimRohn:My question was simple and direct! Are Angels Spirits in Islam? It's a YES or NO question! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by honesttalk21: 7:01pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
gohf:I wonder why your view of Jimrohn's state of mind necessitates my mention. I am not a psychologist or authority in mental analysis. Why don't you clear up what you feel is his confusion directly? |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 7:39pm On Jun 08, 2025*. Modified: 9:45pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
Continuation: I have to break some of your replies into two to avoid a ban JimRohn:Sorry sir. If Jibril is the Holy Spirit, then necessarily a spirit is a living being. This, Jibril is a spirit AND Jesus is a spirit from Allah. Since you would never agree that Jesus was breathe into Adam, I ask again. Did Allah breathe Jibril into Adam? JimRohn:The question wasn't to to claim that Jesus was devine. Your prophet actually got it right: Jesus is Ruhullah (spirit of God) BUT trust islamic scholars, such nonsensical words even from your prophet must be re-interpreted into "honour"? Let's take the literal words of Allah over that of Mohammed. Jesus is the Spirit FROM Allah! It means that Jesus was a Spirit With Allah! And if you doubt me, Ask yourself the Question: Where is Jesus after Allah deceived the Jews, the Romans, Mary, the Apostles of Jesus and all the Disciples of Jesus? Is it UNTRUE that Allah took Jesus up to HIMSELF? So, you see why I said that Jesus was a Spirit With Allah! JimRohn:Do you see the wisdom of Allah in asking Mohammed to ask the Cursed Jews and the Lost Christians who both have corrupted both their books and religion!? Do you think this makes any sense? Let's accept that it is a rhetorical question: would it be a sin if Mohammed carried out this instruction to ASK the people of the book? JimRohn:Unfortunately, you do not have the right to decide what I accept and what I reject from the Bible. Just as I don't have the right to confined you to Qur'an verses revealed in Medina alone. John 11:25: "Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 10:27-28: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 3:36: "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." John 6:40: "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." JimRohn:So, what is the linguistic equivalence of YHWH amongst the 99 names of Allah? Muslims can tell lies for Africa. How do you know that YHWH is a translated name. Jews don't even try to pronounce the name as it is too Holy and Jews do not call their Father by name. Exo 6:3: "And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them." Exo 3:15: "And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial to all generations." So, again: Which of the 99 names of Allah is YHWH? JimRohn:At least, you understand how YHWH can be Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient according to the doctrine of Trinity. God can be on earth and in heaven at the same time. Let me give you an example Gen 19:24: "Then YHWH (on earth) rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;" Secondly, Allah is NOT a Spirit, thus he cannot be Omnipresent. This is impossible for Allah to do: thus my rhetorical question remains Should I leave the omnipotent, omnipresent God of Christianity for Allah?” Let me ask you: According to the Torah 1. Did the God of Abraham visit him as an Angel? Can Allah visit anyone as an Angel? 2. Did the God of Jacob visit him as man? Can Allah visit anyone as a Man? 3. Did the God of the Children of Israel see YHWH their God? Can Allah enter his creation? 4. Did YHWH appear to Moses? Can Allah appear to anyone on earth? If your answer is not consistent with this, then Allah cannot be YHWH! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 9:53pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
TenQ:Thank you for your reply. I will address your comments with clarity and consistency, grounded in the Qur’an and reasoned logic. 1. Did Ancient Jews Believe the Holy Spirit Was an Angel? You asked: > “Starting from Moses to Isaiah to David to Solomon, which among the Jews remotely thought that the Holy Spirit was an Angel?” This question presupposes that the Jewish conception of the ruach (spirit) was identical to the Christian Trinitarian view, which it was not. The Old Testament does not present the Holy Spirit as a distinct divine person, nor does it present Him as God co-equal with Yahweh. The ruach is often presented as God's power, breath, or presence—not a person. Furthermore, no pre-Christian Jewish sect (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, or any group from the Second Temple period) ever formulated or taught a Trinitarian concept of God. That alone should give pause to the claim that belief in the divinity of the Holy Spirit was normative. So the Muslim claim is not that Jews believed the Holy Spirit was an angel—but rather, that neither Jews nor Jesus preached the Holy Spirit as a third co-equal divine person. And Islam affirms that the Holy Spirit refers to Gabriel (Jibrīl), the angel of revelation—based on Qur’anic internal evidence. 2. Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit: Does Forgiveness Prove Divinity? You asked: > “Does it make sense that blasphemy against an angel has no forgiveness…?” Let’s revisit the actual verse again: > “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven…” (Matthew 12:32) This passage highlights the severity of rejecting divine revelation—not the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Jesus clearly says He Himself can be spoken against, yet that does not make Him inferior in essence. In Islam, certain crimes such as hypocrisy or denying revelation after knowledge may be unforgivable in the Hereafter—not because the recipient is divine, but because the offense is a willful rejection of truth. So the logic fails: Severity of punishment ≠ proof of divinity. 3. “In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl”? You asked: > “Is it halal to say: In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl…?” This is a false analogy. The formula in Matthew 28:19 includes the Holy Spirit with the Father and Son, implying ontological equality. But nowhere does the Bible define what that equality means, nor does Jesus clarify that the Holy Spirit is God Himself. In Islam, there is no such phrase pairing Allah, the Prophet, and Jibrīl in worship or invocation. Worship belongs solely to Allah. Jibrīl and Prophet Muhammad ﷺ are servants of Allah—one an angelic messenger, the other a human messenger. So your analogy fails because Islam preserves strict monotheism (Tawḥīd), while Trinitarianism conflates roles with essence. 4. Qur’anic Identification of Jibrīl as the Holy Spirit You dismissed my earlier point: > “You didn’t quote the Qur’an but Al-Ṭabarī and Ibn Kathīr…” Actually, I did quote the Qur’an—multiple times. Let me clarify again: Qur’an 2:97 – “Whoever is an enemy to Jibrīl—for indeed he brought it (the Qur’an) down to your heart by Allah’s permission…” Qur’an 16:102 – “Say: The Holy Spirit has brought it (the Qur’an) down from your Lord in truth…” From these two verses, the conclusion is clear: The Qur’an was revealed by Jibrīl. The Qur’an was revealed by the Holy Spirit. Conclusion: Jibrīl is the Holy Spirit. This is not blind reliance on scholars—it is a direct logical inference from the Qur’an itself. Scholars like Al-Ṭabarī and Ibn Kathīr simply explain what the Qur’an already says. 5. Are Angels “Spirits” in Islam? Yes or No? You wrote: > “Are Angels Spirits in Islam? It’s a YES or NO question!” The correct answer: Some angels—such as Jibrīl—are called “spirit” in the Qur’an. But not all angels are spirits. The Qur’an uses terms with precision: Jibrīl is called Rūḥ al-Qudus (Holy Spirit), Rūḥ al-Amīn (Trustworthy Spirit), and simply Rūḥ (Spirit), e.g., in 26:193, 16:102, 2:97, 78:38. Other angels (e.g., the angel of death) are not called "Rūḥ." So in Islam: Jibrīl is both an angel and a spirit, as described explicitly in the Qur’an. Not all angels are spirits, and not all spirits are divine. Thus, the term rūḥ (spirit) in Islam has multiple usages: God’s creative command (e.g., Qur’an 17:85), A special creation like Jesus (Qur’an 4:171), The angel Jibrīl, who brings revelation (e.g., Qur’an 16:102), The soul (Qur’an 39:42). Consistency in Islam is achieved through contextual usage and precise definition, not by flattening all terms into one meaning. Final Thought Islam does not claim the Holy Spirit is “just an angel.” Rather, it defines him as Jibrīl, a noble messenger entrusted with divine revelation—distinct from God, not divine, and not a partner in Godhead. That is pure monotheism: God is One, not three. Now I return the challenge: Can you provide a single verse where Jesus explicitly says: > “The Holy Spirit is God,” or “Worship the Holy Spirit,” or “God is three in one”? If not, then the doctrine of the Trinity remains a post-biblical formulation, not a teaching of Christ himself. Let us debate with truth, clarity, and mutual respect. Peace be upon those who follow the guidance. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 10:08pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
gohf:Dear gohf, Your reply says more about your lack of substance than mine does about confusion. When I ask whether God—according to your belief—is capable of ignorance, hunger, or being tempted, that is a theological question, not a confusion. You believe Jesus is fully God and fully man—so I am asking a direct and necessary question: Can God be tempted (as Jesus was), feel hunger (as Jesus did), or be ignorant (as Jesus confessed when he said only the Father knows the Hour)? If your answer is yes—then your "God" is no longer omniscient, self-sufficient, or above human limitations. If your answer is no—then Jesus cannot be fully God. Calling this “confusion” doesn’t answer the problem—it evades it. If your faith cannot withstand direct and honest scrutiny, perhaps it is not the questioner who is confused—but the one offering empty platitudes in place of answers. Warm regards, A Muslim who believes in a God who does not hunger, sleep, forget, or get tempted by Satan. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 11:18pm On Jun 08, 2025 |
JimRohn:Why is it difficult to respond to a direct question! The Jews do not believe in Trinity. The question is : Do the Jews believe that the Holy Spirit is any Angel? It's a YES or NO question! JimRohn:I didn't ask you to re-interprete the verse or my question. Does it make sense that the Blasphemy against angel has no forgiveness either I. This world or the world to come? It is a YES or NO question sir! JimRohn:Please answer my direct question: “Is it halal to say: In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl…in Islam?” Or Is it Halal to say: "Do your Ablution in the name of Allah, Mohammed and Jibril?" Is it difficult answering direct questions? JimRohn:Allah spoke of Ruh -Al-Qudus BUT never once said Jibril was the Ruh Al-Qudus. You want me to accept prophet Ibn Kathir and prophet Al-Tabari re-interpretations of your Qur'an. Are you aware that From Muhammad (570 CE) to Al-Ṭabarī (808 CE) is about 238 years. From Muhammad (570 CE) to Ibn Kathīr (1300 CE) is about 730 years. From Al-Ṭabarī (808 CE) to Ibn Kathīr (1300 CE) is about 492 years. If this is where you get your deen, I can imagine why you have swallowed so much lies that you are becoming the lie. JimRohn:If I understand you, Jibril was not created from Light Jibril is NOT an Angel!? JimRohn:After you provide a verse in the Qur'an ran where Jesus explicitly said "I am the Messiah!" Or show explicitly where Allah says "I am Not a Trinity" Then we will debate with truth and clarity. Islam is a religion of amalgamation of many religions: Idolatry, Christianity, Judaism, Sabean etc and the relics about. Unfortunately, it is a deception by the Al-Makr as ALL Muslims will enter the fire only that it will not be temporary. 1 Like |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 12:33am On Jun 09, 2025 |
TenQ:Thank you again for your reply. I will respond respectfully and clearly—but also directly—because this conversation is now cycling through the same set of previously addressed questions without acknowledgment of the answers given. If we cannot move forward with intellectual sincerity, then continuing the discussion serves no purpose. 1. Do Jews Believe the Holy Spirit Is an Angel? You insisted on a simple yes or no. The honest answer is: Jews do not believe the Holy Spirit is a distinct divine person or an angel. In Jewish theology, the ruach ha-qodesh (Holy Spirit) is understood primarily as a manifestation of God's power or presence, not a person or angel. That is precisely the point I made earlier. Your attempt to force Islamic theology to depend on Jewish angelology or Christian logic is flawed from the outset. Islam teaches that the Holy Spirit (Rūḥ al-Qudus) is Jibrīl, based on internal Qur’anic evidence (see Qur’an 2:97 and 16:102). The Qur’an, not Jewish or Christian belief, defines the role and identity of the Holy Spirit in Islam. You’re asking a question rooted in Jewish theology, then using it to reject Islamic theology. That’s a category error. 2. Is Blasphemy Against an Angel Unforgivable? You demanded a yes or no again. The answer is: Blasphemy against any creature, angel or prophet, is not unforgivable—unless it involves knowingly rejecting divine truth after it has been made clear. > The verse in question (Matthew 12:32) is from your own scripture, and Jesus Himself says that blasphemy against Him is forgivable, but not against the Holy Spirit. That undermines the argument that unforgivability proves divinity. Islamic theology, again, does not base the nature of divinity on how unforgivable an act is. So your conclusion is based on Christian logic, which is not binding on me. 3. Is It Halal to Say: “In the Name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibrīl”? Your question is irrelevant to Islamic theology. No, it is not halal, nor is it even a recognized phrase in Islam. Worship and invocation are reserved solely for Allah. That is exactly why Muslims reject the Trinitarian formula of invoking God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Your question fails as an analogy. You are comparing a phrase in Christianity that implies divinity and equality (Matthew 28:19) to a hypothetical phrase in Islam that does not exist and would in fact be considered shirk (polytheism). So we reject it entirely. In short: No, the phrase is not halal, and your analogy is invalid. 4. “Jibrīl Is Not Called Rūḥ al-Qudus in the Qur’an” — False Claim You said: > “Allah never said Jibrīl is the Rūḥ al-Qudus.” This is demonstrably false. Let’s review the Qur’anic logic again: Qur’an 2:97 – “Whoever is an enemy to Jibrīl—it is he who brought it (the Qur’an) down to your heart...” Qur’an 16:102 – “Say: The Holy Spirit has brought it (the Qur’an) down from your Lord in truth...” The same act (bringing the Qur’an) is attributed to Jibrīl in one verse and to the Holy Spirit in the other. This is not a reinterpretation; this is simple deduction. So yes, the Qur’an equates Jibrīl with Rūḥ al-Qudus. And Islamic scholarship affirms this with consensus—not because they “made it up centuries later,” but because they understood the Arabic language and Qur’anic context far better than your polemics allow. 5. Is Jibrīl an Angel or Not? You misrepresented my statements. Nowhere did I deny that Jibrīl is an angel. Islam teaches clearly: Jibrīl is the chief angel assigned to deliver revelation (Qur’an 2:97, 26:193). He is also referred to as Rūḥ, because of his role in bringing the divine message. He was created, like all angels, and is not divine in any sense. There is no contradiction in this Islamic teaching. 6. Where Does Jesus Say: “I Am the Messiah”? > You challenged: “Show where Jesus says ‘I am the Messiah.’” That’s easy. John 4:25–26 – The Samaritan woman says: “I know that Messiah is coming...” Jesus replies: “I who speak to you am he.” So yes, Jesus calls himself the Messiah. But calling himself Messiah is not the same as calling himself God. 7. Where Does Allah Say: “I Am Not a Trinity”? > You asked for an explicit statement that Allah says: “I am not a Trinity.” Here you go: Qur’an 4:171 – “Do not say ‘Three’—desist! It is better for you. Indeed, Allah is only One God. Far exalted is He above having a son.” Qur’an 5:73 – “They have certainly disbelieved who say: ‘Allah is the third of three.’” These are unambiguous rejections of the doctrine of the Trinity. 8. Final Observation: Are We Going in Circles? You continue to: Repeat the same questions, ignoring the answers, Demand “yes/no” answers to complex theological matters, Shift between Jewish theology, Christian logic, and Islamic terms without consistency. If your goal is mutual understanding, then let us proceed respectfully, acknowledging responses and debating sincerely. But if the aim is simply to ignore answers, distort positions, and recycle fallacies—then I must respectfully end this exchange. ✅ Summary: Yes: Jibrīl is the Holy Spirit in Islam. No: Muslims don’t invoke Jibrīl or the Prophet in worship. Yes: Jesus called himself Messiah but never called himself God. Yes: The Qur’an explicitly rejects the Trinity. No: Severity of blasphemy ≠ proof of divinity. Yes: You are repeating questions already answered. If you wish to continue this discussion, please respond directly to the core Islamic arguments rather than repeating mischaracterizations. If not, then I respectfully close by saying: > “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (Qur’an 109:6) Peace be upon those who follow the guidance. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 6:08am On Jun 09, 2025 |
JimRohn:The answer is, God is anything he is and whatever that happens to be is what Jesus Christ is. God is NOT limited to human definitions, limitations, and logic. If what happened about Christ happens about another person I'd also belive that person is God {"God the 2nd Son"} |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 12:01pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you for your reply. However, your response does not address the theological dilemma I raised but instead dismisses it by appealing to God’s transcendence of human logic. While I agree that God is not bound by human limitations, this does not resolve the inherent contradiction within the doctrine of the Incarnation. My question was precise: If Jesus, as fully God, experienced human limitations—such as hunger, temptation, or ignorance—does this mean God, in His divine nature, is subject to these limitations? If so, this contradicts the classical attributes of God (omniscience, self-sufficiency, and perfection). If not, then Jesus cannot be fully God in the same unqualified sense. Your answer—"God is anything He is"—is not a substantive reply but a deflection. It does not clarify how divine nature reconciles with human frailty in Christ. Muslims believe in a God who is transcendent (free from all limitations) and does not enter into His creation in a way that compromises His perfection. This is why we reject the notion of God becoming man, as it introduces logical and theological inconsistencies that remain unresolved in Christian doctrine. If faith requires suspending logical coherence when addressing core tenets, then it is not the question that is flawed—but the doctrine that cannot withstand scrutiny. I welcome a direct engagement with the dilemma if you have one. Warm regards, 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 1:12pm On Jun 09, 2025*. Modified: 2:01pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your polite response. Your thesis is so easily dismissible it is almost laughable. You say God is free from all limitations yet you limit him by saying he lacks the capacity to become man! Which is at the core of everything you're saying - "God CANNOT CHOOSE to be fully man if he wanted to, yet he can do anything he chooses to do"! That is the real contradiction not all these other minutae you're obsessed with. "Classical attributes of God", as determined by who?? YOU! Let's look at who this "you" is in real world practical terms. If our galaxy were shrunk to the size of the earth, then the earth will be smaller than a grain of salt! But that's not all, there are more than two trillion (Trillion!) such galaxies in our universe. That's FACT. Then there is the theory that our universe is only one in a limitless sea of universes. Add to that "you" can only see, hear, feel, perceive only a minuscule percentage of what's there, and has no way of knowing if what he's perceiving is real. That's the "you" that determined "classical attributes of God"! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 1:32pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
JimRohn:Modern Jews do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God as a person but they say that the Holy Spirit is the manifest power of God's presence that creates and inspire the prophets. My argument is simply this: Can you find any prophet of God apart from Mohammed who thinks the Holy Spirit is a created being like an Angel. If you cannot find one, we have every reason to reject your Islamic theology as fraudulently wrong. Do you have any support that Jibril is the Holy Spirit other than Islam? Do you agree that even to the Jews, the notion that an Angel called Jibril is the Holy Spirit is an insult. Don't forget that Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit and NOWHERE is He less than the Power of the Presence of God Himself. JimRohn:So, if indeed Jesus was correct about the Holy Spirit, then He cannot be an Angel. The least you can think of the Holy Spirit is that He cannot be an Angel (if Jesus was correct). If Jesus was correct about this, Islam is wrong! JimRohn:I am satisfied with the fact that you admit that such statement is NOT Halal in Islam. This, if Jesus is correct about this, Islam is false calling Jibril an Angel! JimRohn:Let me accept your evidence here. Indirectly, the Holy Spirit is Jibril in the Qur'an. JimRohn:The question was to find out if Jibril was an Angel or not. If Jibril was an Angel, why did Allah say Qur'an 78:38 "The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand in rows, they will not speak except for one whom the Most Merciful permits, and he will say what is correct." Who is this spirit as Jibril is an Angel? The day the Senator and the soldiers will stand in rows help us know that the Senator is NOT one of the soldiers! Islam doesn't know what the Spirit is! JimRohn:I just flipped your question back to you. I needed categorical statements like you asked me to provide. Was any of these a direct statement in the Qur'an? JimRohn:All I have done is to show you that not one prophet agrees with you that the Holy Spirit is an Angel. The worst interpretation you can give about the Holy Spirit is that He is the Power of God's Presence and not God Himself. If the Holy Spirit is NOT God BUT the Power of God's presence, tell me How it is Possible that an Angel is the Power of God's presence? Don't forget, your prophet was asked a simple Question by the Jews. Every Jewish prophet interacted with the Spirit of God as not everyone spoken to by an Angel is a prophet. Qur’an 17:85 "And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Spirit. Say, 'The Spirit is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind has not been given of knowledge except a little.' If the Spirit was Jibril, Why didn't Allah just reply that the Spirit is Jibril? Till today, no Muslim knows what the Spirit is: do you!? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 1:36pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
Mr JimRohn You forgot this https://www.nairaland.com/8421569/make-sense-number-things-heard/3#135673985 |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 10:49pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
TenQ:Thank you for your response. I will reply to your claims in a structured and respectful manner, with the aim of clarity—not repetition. But first, a brief note: many of your points are repeated from your earlier message, without new evidence or development. Repeating an assertion does not make it true. If we are to engage fruitfully, we must go beyond rhetorical restatement and focus on evidence-based reasoning. 1. "Every Jew Knew..." – An Unsupported Generalization You’ve repeated: > “Every Jew knew the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, omnipotent, and not an angel.” Respectfully, this is still a sweeping claim with zero citation from Jewish scripture, Second Temple Jewish writings, or rabbinic sources. Judaism to this day does not affirm the Holy Spirit as a “person” or a member of a Trinity. The Ruach Elohim (Spirit of God) in the Hebrew Bible is not understood as a co-equal person within God. If “every Jew” knew the Holy Spirit was omnipotent and divine, why did no Jewish sect in history affirm a Triune God? The Dead Sea Scrolls, Talmud, and apocryphal Jewish writings do not describe the Holy Spirit as a distinct divine being or object of worship. Please provide actual sources from Jewish literature rather than rhetorical generalizations. 2. Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit ≠ Proof of Divinity Your reply: > “Does it make sense that blasphemy against an angel is worse than blasphemy against God?” This assumes your interpretation is the only one. But as stated earlier: In both Islam and the Bible, not all unforgivable sins imply divinity. Rejection of divine revelation (blasphemy against the Spirit) is a serious matter—but that does not make the agent divine. Jesus said insults against himself could be forgiven—does that mean he was inferior to the Spirit? By your logic, yes—but surely even Christians would reject that implication. This passage is about resisting divine guidance, not the ontological status of the Spirit. 3. Matthew 28:19 – Still Not a Proof of Trinity You asked again: > “Is it normal to associate the name of an angel with God’s name?” As answered before: Being mentioned in the same sentence is not proof of divinity. The verse does not say “The Holy Spirit is God” or “God is Three-in-One.” The baptismal formula’s authenticity is questioned even by many Christian scholars. It does not appear in the earliest baptismal practices in Acts (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16). Mentioning three names in a statement does not equate them in nature. You must demonstrate ontological equality, not assert it by proximity. 4. Is Jibril (Gabriel) the Holy Spirit in the Qur’an? You claim: > “No verse calls Jibril the Holy Spirit.” This is incorrect. Let’s again compare two direct verses: Qur'an 2:97 – Jibril brings down the Qur’an Qur'an 16:102 – The Holy Spirit brings down the Qur’an Qur'an 26:193 – The “Trustworthy Spirit” brings it down Classical tafsīr (Ibn Kathīr, Al-Ṭabarī, Al-Qurṭubī) all affirm that Jibril is the Rūḥ al-Qudus, based on cross-referencing these ayahs. This is not “ignorant interpolation.” It is textual correlation and scholarly consensus. > "No single Jew believed the Holy Spirit is an angel." That is irrelevant to Islam. We don’t derive our theology from Jewish speculation, but from the Qur’an. 5. Are Angels Spirit in Islam? You quote Psalm 104:4 and ask: > “If angels are not spirits, how can Jibril be a spirit?” In Islam: Angels are created from light (Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2996). Jibril is called Rūḥ al-Amīn (26:193), Rūḥ al-Qudus (16:102), and Rūḥ (19:17) – repeatedly. He is a unique angel who brings revelation. So yes, Jibril is both an angel and a spirit, by Qur'anic description. 6. “Breathed into Adam from My Spirit” – Still Not Jibril You asked again: > “Did Allah breathe Jibril into Adam?” This was already addressed. No. "My Spirit" is an honorific possessive, not a literal part of God, nor is it Jibril. Just like: “My House” (Baytī) doesn’t mean God lives in the Ka‘bah. “My servant” doesn’t mean the servant shares God’s nature. This language reflects honor, not ontological fusion. 7. Jesus as “a Spirit from God” ≠ Divinity You write: > “Jesus is the only one called a spirit in the Qur’an.” Incorrect. Jibril is also repeatedly called Rūḥ (spirit). Every soul is “from God” in the sense of being created by Him (Qur’an 32:9) Being “a spirit from God” does not imply divinity. It signifies origin, not nature. Otherwise, Adam—who had no father—would be even more divine. 8. Qur’an 10:94 – Addressing Doubt? This verse says: > “If you (O Muhammad) are in doubt…” You quote it as if it is literal doubt. But as Ibn Kathīr, Al-Rāzī, and Qurtubī explain: this is a rhetorical address to the audience, not to the Prophet himself. Allah says elsewhere: > “Do not be in doubt of it.” (Qur’an 32:23) There is no contradiction. It’s a stylistic form to affirm the truth of revelation, not an admission of doubt. 9. “Jesus Knew His Fate, Muhammad Didn’t” You compare: > Qur’an 46:9 vs John 14:6 Again, this is a false equivalence. The Qur’an verse shows humility and submission to God’s decree—consistent with the prophetic mission. The Bible has many verses where Jesus says he doesn’t know the Hour (Mark 13:32), or expresses weakness. Omniscience is not consistently applied to Jesus in the NT either. So using Qur'an 46:9 as proof of inferiority is flawed. 10. Islam and Hell You said: > “Muslims must enter Hell.” Again, a half-quote: > “There is none of you except he will pass over it…” (Qur’an 19:71) “Then We will save those who feared Allah…” (Qur’an 19:72) This refers to crossing over (the Sirāt), not remaining in Hell. It is not a punishment for the righteous, but a test and passage. 11. Is Allah YHWH? You asked again: > “Is any of Allah’s 99 Names YHWH?” This question has been answered. “YHWH” is a proper name in Hebrew, not a description or title. “Allah” is the universal Arabic name for God used by Christians, Jews, and Muslims in Arabic. The Qur’an affirms God's oneness, eternality, and unchanging nature—consistent with the God of Abraham. Names vary by language. “Theos” in Greek, “Dios” in Spanish, “Khuda” in Persian—none of these invalidate the reference to the same One God. 12. Final Clarification Your theological claims are rooted in post-biblical doctrine, not teachings of Jesus himself: Jesus never said “God is three.” Jesus never taught the Holy Spirit is a person to be worshiped. Jesus never said “I am God.” The Qur’an calls people back to the unambiguous monotheism of all prophets: > “Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Absolute. He begets not, nor was He begotten.” (Qur’an 112:1–3) This is the monotheism of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus—not the innovation of church councils centuries later. Request for Intellectual Honesty Let’s elevate the conversation. Please avoid: Repeating the same objections without responding to the refutations. Making claims without citation or evidence. Misrepresenting Islamic belief through loaded rhetoric. Let us engage with sincerity and evidence, not emotion and repetition. If you would like to continue, please address specific points with referenced sources, not assumptions or generalizations. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 11:06pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your engagement, but I must point out that your response, while rhetorically passionate, does not resolve the actual dilemma I presented. Instead, it shifts the focus away from theological consistency and substitutes it with an emotional appeal to divine mystery and human insignificance. Let me clarify my position precisely: 1. The Core Dilemma Is Not God’s Power, But His Nature You claim I am "limiting" God by asserting that He cannot become man. Respectfully, this is a misunderstanding of the Islamic objection. In Islam, we affirm that God can do all things consistent with His nature and perfection. But to say that God can do anything—even things that contradict His own essence—is not omnipotence; it is incoherence. For example: Can God cease to be God? Can God be ignorant? Can God be created? Can God die? If you answer yes to these questions in the name of “divine freedom,” then you have destroyed the very concept of God as necessarily eternal, self-sufficient, and perfect. If you answer no, then you already acknowledge that divine power operates within the boundaries of divine nature. That is exactly the Islamic view. So, the problem is not with God's ability but with the logical coherence of a claim that God can become limited, ignorant, tempted, or mortal—while still claiming to be fully divine. This is not a limitation on God; it is a defense of His perfection. 2. Appealing to God’s Transcendence Doesn’t Solve a Logical Contradiction You said: “Your thesis is laughable... you're obsessed with minutiae.” But what you call minutiae are, in fact, the heart of Christian theology: the Incarnation and nature of Christ. I am not asking speculative or irrelevant questions; I am asking: How can the infinite become finite without ceasing to be infinite? This is not rhetorical—it’s a real theological contradiction. If Jesus was God: Was he omniscient while also learning like a human? Was he immortal while dying on the cross? Was he all-powerful while being beaten and crucified? If you answer that this is a “mystery,” you are not solving the contradiction—you are merely shelving it. 3. Your Cosmological Analogy Is a Red Herring You brought up the vastness of the universe and our insignificance as humans. I do not deny this. The Qur'an itself invites us to reflect on the majesty of the cosmos as a sign of God's power. But this proves God’s transcendence, not His incarnation. Your analogy inadvertently supports the Islamic view: God is unimaginably beyond creation, and thus is not subject to its limitations. Why would such a God become a man who eats, sleeps, and suffers? If anything, the vastness of creation demonstrates how absurd it is to confine the Eternal Creator to a mortal body in a single time and place, as Christian doctrine teaches. 4. On the “Classical Attributes” of God You asked who determined these "classical attributes." The answer: they are derived from revelation and reason. Even Christian philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas, Anselm, and Church Fathers have consistently defined God as: Eternal All-Knowing All-Powerful Self-Sufficient Unchanging If Jesus contradicts these, then either: 1. Jesus is not fully God, or 2. The doctrine of the Incarnation compromises God’s classical attributes. Islam simply preserves the unity and perfection of God without these contradictions. 5. In Conclusion: Logic Is Not the Enemy of Faith You imply that raising these questions shows arrogance. On the contrary, the Qur’an itself says: > “Do they not reflect upon the Qur’an? If it were from other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.” (Qur’an 4:82) God invites us to use reason to distinguish truth from falsehood. If a doctrine contradicts both revelation and reason, it deserves critical scrutiny—not blind acceptance. I am not asking whether God can become man. I am asking: Can a being who is mortal, ignorant, and limited still be God by definition? If your answer is yes, then you’ve redefined God into something logically incoherent. If your answer is no, then you have affirmed the Islamic position. Let us continue respectfully, but let us not confuse mystery with contradiction. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 11:29pm On Jun 09, 2025 |
TenQ:Thank you again for your response. However, your reply continues to repeat questions that have already been answered clearly and scripturally. For the sake of clarity, I will respond once more—logically, directly, and with respect. But I also urge you to engage with the actual points raised, rather than recycling objections that have already been addressed. 1. Jewish Views Do Not Define Islam You continue to assert that Islamic theology must be validated by Jewish or Christian prophetic views. This is categorically false. Islam has its own revealed framework. Just as you do not subject your Trinitarian beliefs to Jewish theology for approval, I am under no obligation to seek Jewish agreement on Qur’anic terms. Moreover, your argument is inconsistent: You argue that the Holy Spirit cannot be an angel because Jewish prophets never described Him as such. Yet Jews also never taught that the Holy Spirit is a separate divine person, let alone part of a Trinity. So by your own logic, Christianity would be “fraudulent” too. You are using Jewish theology selectively—when it suits you. 2. The Qur’an Identifies the Holy Spirit as Jibrīl You said: "Do you have any support that Jibrīl is the Holy Spirit other than Islam?" This question is irrelevant. Islam is an independent revelation, not a commentary on the Bible. It stands on its own scripture—the Qur’an—and authentic prophetic tradition. But for the record: Qur’an 2:97 identifies Jibrīl as the one who brought down the Qur’an. Qur’an 16:102 says the Holy Spirit brought it down. These are not metaphorical verses—they speak of the same act of revelation. Basic deduction confirms that Rūḥ al-Qudus = Jibrīl. Early Islamic scholars—masters of Arabic and Qur’anic exegesis—understood this unanimously. So yes, the Qur’an does support this identity directly, and no, we don’t need Jewish or Christian approval to affirm it. 3. Misuse of Qur’an 78:38 You claimed that since “the Spirit and the angels” are mentioned separately in Qur’an 78:38, this proves the Spirit is not Jibrīl. But that is a flawed and superficial reading of the text. Jibrīl can be referred to by multiple titles: Rūḥ, Rūḥ al-Qudus, Rūḥ al-Amīn, and Malak (angel). The distinction in Qur’an 78:38 is not ontological (as in different species), but functional—just as we might say “the general and the soldiers stood in rank,” without denying that the general is a soldier in category. This verse simply highlights Jibrīl’s special role on that Day—it does not contradict his angelic nature. 4. Qur’an 17:85 Does Not Contradict Jibrīl’s Identity You cite Qur’an 17:85: > “They ask you concerning the Spirit (al-Rūḥ). Say: The Spirit is of the affair of my Lord...” This verse does not mean Muslims are clueless about the Spirit’s identity. Rather, it emphasizes that its full nature is beyond human comprehension—just as many metaphysical realities are. It’s also worth noting: The verse came in response to Jewish polemic questions, meant to test the Prophet ﷺ. It affirms that knowledge of al-Rūḥ is a divine affair, not that it is undefined or unknowable. The Qur’an elsewhere does identify the Rūḥ in the role of revelation—which Jibrīl fulfills. So this verse does not disprove that Rūḥ = Jibrīl—it simply emphasizes divine discretion over metaphysical matters. 5. No Prophet Called the Holy Spirit an Angel? You asked: > “Can you find any prophet apart from Muhammad who called the Holy Spirit an angel?” That’s a misplaced challenge. No prophet before Jesus called the Holy Spirit a divine person either. The Old Testament portrays the Spirit as God’s active force—not as a distinct being or person. No verse says “the Holy Spirit is God” or “a divine person.” Likewise, nowhere do earlier prophets mention “God the Son.” By your own reasoning, then: > If no prophet before Jesus called the Holy Spirit a divine person, the Trinitarian doctrine must be rejected. Islam actually preserves the biblical pattern—understanding the Holy Spirit as a means of divine action, not divinity itself. 6. Misusing “Power of God's Presence” You keep repeating: > “If the Holy Spirit is the power of God’s presence, how can it be an angel?” Let me clarify: In Islamic understanding: Angels carry out God’s commands. They are vehicles of divine action, but not divine in themselves. Saying Jibrīl is the “Holy Spirit” means he is the agent through whom God’s Word is revealed—not that he is the power of God’s being. Just as Moses split the sea by God’s permission, yet was not divine, Jibrīl delivers God’s Word by His command—not by divine essence. 7. Let Us Not Circle the Same Ground With respect, you are now: Repeating already answered questions. Jumping between Jewish, Christian, and Islamic frameworks inconsistently. Demanding categorical verses while refusing to apply the same standard to your own beliefs. Declaring “if Jesus is right, Islam is false” as if that settles anything—when Islam does not affirm your version of Jesus to begin with. If you want a productive conversation, let’s move forward—not in circles. ✅ Final Summary: Yes: Islam teaches the Holy Spirit is Jibrīl—the angel of revelation. No: Islam does not derive its theology from Jewish or Christian traditions. Yes: The Qur’an identifies Jibrīl and the Holy Spirit as the same in multiple verses. No: Your misuse of isolated Qur’anic verses doesn’t undo this. Yes: Islam preserves pure monotheism and consistent theology about God, revelation, and the unseen. I now respectfully ask: Do you intend to respond to these points directly—or will you continue repeating what’s already been answered? If no sincere engagement follows, then with all respect: > “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (Qur’an 109:6) May God guide us all to the truth. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 12:46am On Jun 10, 2025*. Modified: 1:24am On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks 4 your polite and detailed response. The problem with your thesis is that you start from a FALSE position. You start with the position that man knows the nature of God, you then present things that contradict that nature. The HONEST, REAL-LIFE position to start with is that man knows almost nothing, talkless of knowing the nature of God. Man, in real-life, practical terms, is almost blind, deaf, doesn't know where he is, doesn't know why he is there, and doesn't even know if he is really there. So you MUST start with the position that we know almost nothing, talkless of the nature of God. So that if things happen as they happened with Christ, we MUST accept that he is indeed God, the Son of God, because we are INCAPABLE of formulating any argument against it, because we know almost nothing, talkless of knowing the nature of God! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 7:28am On Jun 10, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the tone of sincerity in your response, and I will address your core claim directly. You argue that my position is false because it begins with an assumption that humans can know something about the nature of God. You then assert that because humans are profoundly limited in knowledge, we are “incapable of formulating any argument” against claims such as the Incarnation. With respect, I believe this position, while sounding humble, ultimately undermines the foundations of theology itself—Christian or otherwise. Allow me to explain why: 1. Without Some Knowledge of God, Faith Itself Collapses If we truly know nothing of God’s nature, as you suggest, then we have no basis to say that anything is true or false about Him. That would include: That God is One That God is eternal That God is all-powerful That God is loving or just That Jesus is God If we follow your logic consistently, then we must also admit that we cannot even know whether Jesus is divine—because that would require knowing something about what divinity is. Thus, your argument does not support the Incarnation; it nullifies the very claim that Jesus is divine. On the contrary, both the Bible and the Qur’an repeatedly call humans to reason and to recognize basic truths about God through reflection and revelation. > “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord.” (Isaiah 1:18) > “Do they not reflect?” (Qur’an 88:17) Therefore, while our knowledge of God is certainly limited, it is not non-existent. We know enough about God—through revelation and reason—to identify contradictions when they arise. 2. Absolute Skepticism Is Self-Defeating Your position leads to an epistemological contradiction. If humans are too ignorant to judge claims about God, then we are also too ignorant to affirm that Jesus is God. You said: > “We must accept that he is indeed God... because we are incapable of formulating any argument against it.” But if we are incapable of formulating arguments against it, then we are equally incapable of formulating arguments for it. Total ignorance cuts both ways. This radical skepticism is not a stable foundation for theology—it is a surrender of reason altogether. 3. The Islamic Approach: Affirming Revelation, Not Speculation Islam affirms that God is beyond full human comprehension—but not beyond all understanding. God has revealed His names and attributes, and they are not arbitrary labels. They are coherent, meaningful, and non-contradictory. God is not like creation. He is: Eternal, not born or dying All-Knowing, not learning or growing Self-Sufficient, not hungry or in need These are not “human inventions” or philosophical constructs. They are divinely revealed attributes that even Christian thinkers like Anselm, Augustine, and Aquinas accepted. So when someone claims, “God became a baby, learned to walk, and died,” we are not being arrogant by asking, “How is that consistent with eternal, self-sufficient divinity?” We are doing exactly what the Bible and Qur’an tell us to do: examine, reflect, and reject contradiction. 4. Faith Is Not Blind Submission to Contradiction Faith does not mean accepting what contradicts reason. Even in Christian theology, the Church has long used reason to defend doctrines—consider the entire field of Christian apologetics. To quote C.S. Lewis: > “Nonsense remains nonsense, even when we talk it about God.” Islam affirms this approach: God is beyond us, but never absurd. He does not reveal to us that which contradicts His own essence. And if a doctrine requires throwing logic out the window, then it is not humility to accept it—it is confusion mistaken for faith. 5. Conclusion: Humility Requires Discernment, Not Despair You are right to emphasize human limitation. But from limitation does not follow irrationality. A blind man may not see everything, but he can still recognize the difference between fire and water. Likewise, we may not grasp the fullness of God, but we can still affirm what God has clearly told us: that He is One, Eternal, Absolute—and that He does not become flesh, suffer, and die. The Qur’an offers this clarity: > “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.” (Surah Ash-Shura 42:11) So I repeat my earlier point in a spirit of respect: If Jesus was ignorant, limited, and mortal—then by definition, he cannot be the eternal, all-knowing, immortal God. This is not arrogance; this is theological consistency. Let us continue this dialogue with mutual respect, but let us not hide contradiction behind the veil of mystery. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 8:53am On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your polite abd erudite response. This is really a VERY simple matter that doesn't require too much talk. You try to confuse it by throwing in Bible and Quiran and Church fathers, etc. Here's a succinct summary of it. We know something must have created us. That something we call God. That God exists in a different dimension that is totally beyond our comprehension (hence "one God" to us may not necessarily be same as "one God" over there). Beyond these we have no way of knowing the full nature of this God. We MUST believe Jesus Christ is God if we believe those things in OT written about him and things said and done by him. This is so because we don't have the capacity to formulate an argument against it being so! You keep talking of contradiction, you can’t say something is contradiction when 1) you don't know what it is supposed to be contradicting 2) You really don't know exactly what's going on |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 12:02pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you again for your response. I appreciate the attempt at simplicity, but I must respectfully point out that oversimplification—especially in theology—can obscure rather than clarify. Let me respond directly and clearly to the core of your argument: 1. Appealing to Mystery Does Not Eliminate Contradiction You say that we cannot speak of contradiction because we “don’t know exactly what’s going on.” But this approach confuses mystery with incoherence. Let me illustrate: It is one thing to say we do not fully comprehend God's essence. It is another to say God became mortal, ignorant, and died, while still being immortal, all-knowing, and eternal—at the same time. These two sets of qualities are not merely mysterious—they are mutually exclusive. A being cannot logically be all-knowing and ignorant, eternal and mortal, self-sufficient and in need, all in the same sense and at the same time. This is not a matter of "not knowing what's going on." This is a matter of logical coherence. [b]A square cannot also be a circle. [/b]And claiming that it is so “in another dimension” is not an explanation—it’s an evasion. 2. You Cannot Claim Knowledge and Deny It at the Same Time Your argument contains a deep contradiction. You say: > “We have no way of knowing the full nature of this God.” Yet you also say: > “We MUST believe Jesus Christ is God.” But if we “have no way of knowing,” then you cannot also claim certainty about Jesus’s divinity. One cannot affirm a claim while denying the epistemological tools necessary to verify it. You’re effectively saying: “We don’t know what God is, or what divinity means, but we do know Jesus is divine.” This is not humility. It is selective reasoning—asserting divine mystery when challenged, and certainty when convenient. 3. True Simplicity Does Not Mean Ignoring Reason You mentioned that this is a “VERY simple matter.” Simplicity, however, does not mean ignoring complexity where it genuinely exists. The question of God's nature is not a trivial one—it is central to all theology. If I were to say: > “God cannot be three persons in one because that's contradictory—case closed.” You would likely accuse me of dismissing too quickly, and rightly so. But when you say: > “Jesus is God because we can’t argue otherwise—end of story,” That is not a reasoned defense. That is intellectual resignation. 4. Islamic Consistency: Transcendence Without Absurdity Islam does not claim to fully comprehend God. But it does affirm that God is: Absolutely One—not composed of persons or parts Eternal—not subject to time or death Self-sufficient—not in need of food, rest, or protection This is not speculative philosophy. It is what God Himself revealed. The Qur’an asserts: > “There is nothing like unto Him.” (Qur’an 42:11) This gives us a standard to test claims about God. If someone claims that God became a man, was tired, bled, and died, then we are not being arrogant to say: [/b]this contradicts what we know of God’s revealed nature. 5. Conclusion: Mystery Cannot Override Logic Let me summarize the issue with clarity: You claim we must accept that Jesus is God because we lack the capacity to reject it. [b]But if we lack that capacity, then we also lack the capacity to affirm it. Therefore, your argument defeats itself. Appealing to mystery cannot justify accepting what contradicts God’s revealed attributes. True faith is not belief in logical contradictions, but trust in what is consistent with both revelation and reason. So again, I say respectfully: If Jesus was born, limited, and subject to death—then he cannot be the eternal, unlimited, immortal God. That is not confusion. That is coherence. Let us continue our discussion with sincerity—but let us do so without hiding contradiction behind the veil of mystery. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 12:42pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:So, why do you adopt their scriptures but reject it at the same time. Isn't it because Islam is contrary to the reports of the prophets you claim you believe? Islam believes in 144,000 prophets but all the ones you know by name are the ones mentioned in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians. There are just TWO views of the Holy Spirit by Jews, Christians and Jehovah's witnesses 1. That the Holy Spirit is the Divine Power of God manifested in His Presence 2. That the Holy Spirit is God Himself In rabbinic tradition, the Holy Spirit, also known as "Ruach ha-Kodesh," is understood as a divine attribute or power, not a separate person or entity, like in Christian theology. It's viewed as a manifestation of God's presence, enabling individuals to prophesy or experience spiritual insight. In some rabbinic interpretations, the Holy Spirit is used as a metonym for God, signifying His presence and power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_in_Judaism Not ONE of the Monotheistic Religion see the Holy Spirit as an Angel. It is a Blasphemous ERROR in Islam that an Angel is the Holy Spirit If you still feel that this is an overgeneralization, then I challenge you to present just one disagreement amoungs t the Jews or Christians on this. JimRohn:Oh, I see, Islam is clearly independent Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet (ﷺ) let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it. Speaking about removing the ladder you used after climbing the stairs. JimRohn:There is no justification for bad grammar! Why is it that you are quick to come to the defence of Allah whenever he speaks? Doesn't Allah speak perfect grammar? How do we even know if the spirit in question is NOT Jesus: was Jesus not explicitly said to be a Spirit from Allah? How many Spirits do you know in Islam? JimRohn:If Mohammed and Allah do not know what the spirit is, would it be you that know what it is? JimRohn:Let us assume that all the prophets meant that the Holy SPirit was not God Himself BUT He is the Manifest Presence of God's Power or the divine attribute or metonym for God, rather than a distinct entity. Is this an Angel? JimRohn:So, Jibril was part of creating the Universe? You don't understand that to cover your doctrinal failures, you have to invent many things! LOL! JimRohn:You give the dumbest response to my questions (Im sorry, its not supposed to be an insult but I lack better words) and you think they are good answers to the questions. Like I said: If Allah speaks and Mohammed Speaks, do you think both are bad communicators that require you to re-interpret what has been said clearly? Like I said: Allah guarantees you hell fire (at least temporarily) but you think he means otherwise. Allah says that he is the best of the deceivers, but you interpreted it to mean that Allah guides you. If your aim is to find the truth, the same Jewish prophets you despise their words, you have to look at it WHY! Allah says that "He revealed our Scriptures AND our scriptures are with us" unfortunately, the Quran contradicts our scriptures. thus you have a dilemma If Islam is TRUE about our Scripture, then Islam is FALSE for our Scriptures contradict Islam. On this falsehood you hold your doctrine. If Jesus came indeed to be our Ransom from Hell Fire, you are in serious trouble. If there exist just one lie or falsehood or error in the Quran, it cannot be from God! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 1:18pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your polite response. For the sake of brevity and to not type too much I've tried NOT to repeat things I already said elsewhere or say things that should be obvious. But I see that doesn't really work. So I'll instead use an analogy from Quantum Mechanics. In QM a particle is able to appear on the other side (pass through) a barrier it can't possibly pass through. Now, it can't possibly pass through the barrier BUT it did pass through it. We don’t come and use Bible and Quiran and logic to say it didn't pass through the barrier. We can ONLY say we don't fully understand what's going on. Likewise with Christ, we start with the certainty that he is God, the Son of God, based on EVIDENCE - same way we started with the certainty that the particle passed through the barrier based on evidence. The only way you can "prove" the particle didn’t pass through the barrier is to deny that it happened. Likewise, the only way you can "prove" Jesus is NOT God is by saying the Bible is false or is made-up. You can't accept that Bible is true and at same time try to use etremely limited human logic to say Christ is NOT God - because his being God is based on evidence NOT logic! Just as the case in QM, you can’t say something didn't happen because it can't. The fact is, it DID happen. God DID come to earth. The fact that your extremely limited human logic tells you it could not have happened does not mean it did not happen! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 2:56pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
TenQ:Thank you again for your response. However, your latest message reflects a shift from substantive dialogue to polemical rhetoric and ridicule. For a fruitful exchange, I invite you to return to clear, logically sound reasoning and respectful engagement. I will now address your objections systematically. 1. “Why Adopt Their Scriptures but Reject Them?” – A Misframing Islam does not “adopt” the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. It affirms that previous revelations were originally divine (e.g., the Torah and the Injīl) but have been corrupted or altered over time (Qur'an 2:79, 5:13). The Qur’an explicitly claims to confirm what remains true and correct what has been distorted (Qur’an 5:48). > Claiming that Islam must fully agree with today’s Jewish or Christian texts to be legitimate is like arguing Christianity is false because it doesn't conform to Judaism. This is a category error. You also cited the number of prophets (124,000) and asked why most known by name are also mentioned in Judeo-Christian scriptures. The answer is simple: > The Qur’an states that some prophets are named, and many are not (Qur’an 40:78). Islam’s naming of past prophets is not “borrowing” but affirmation of true prophethood where it occurred—while rejecting theological distortions that evolved afterward. 2. Misunderstanding the Nature of Revelation Your citation of Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 about the Prophet ﷺ following certain customs of the People of the Book is unrelated to theological doctrine. It concerns non-religious social customs, such as hair styles, which Islam neither prohibits nor mandates unless divine command exists. Copying a harmless cultural practice is not equivalent to theological borrowing. This analogy fails logically and theologically. 3. “Not One Monotheistic Religion Sees the Holy Spirit as an Angel” – Argument from Consensus Fallacy You argue: > “No monotheistic religion sees the Holy Spirit as an angel. Therefore, Islam is wrong.” This is a fallacious appeal to consensus (argumentum ad populum). Truth is not determined by popularity or the number of religions agreeing on a point. Otherwise: The Trinity would be false, since Judaism unanimously rejects it. Christianity’s divinization of Jesus would be invalid, since both Jews and Muslims reject it. Furthermore, Islam is not Judaism 2.0 nor Christianity 1.5. It is a separate, final revelation. You are insisting Islam conform to a Judeo-Christian consensus while simultaneously defending doctrines Judaism rejects—which is a contradiction in your own method. 4. Islamic Identification of the Holy Spirit as Jibrīl (Gabriel) Is Scripturally and Linguistically Sound You never addressed the actual textual correlation I provided: Qur’an 2:97 — Jibrīl brought down the Qur’an Qur’an 16:102 — Rūḥ al-Qudus brought it down These are not ambiguous metaphorical references. They are direct and consistent. In Arabic grammar and Qur’anic context, Jibrīl is identified as Rūḥ al-Qudus. Rejecting this without any refutation of the semantic, textual, and exegetical basis is not a rebuttal—it is dismissal. 5. “Is the Spirit Not Jesus?” – A Misconstrual You ask: “Was Jesus not called a spirit from Allah?” Yes, the Qur’an calls Jesus “Rūḥun minhu” (a Spirit from Him) (Qur’an 4:171). This does not mean Jesus is the Holy Spirit. The phrase means Jesus was created by God's command, as was Adam, and given a spirit from Him, just as all humans are (Qur’an 15:29, 32:9). The phrase “spirit from God” does not imply divinity or identity with the Holy Spirit. It refers to origin and divine creation—not essence. 6. “How Many Spirits Are There?” – Equivocation Fallacy You conflate different uses of the word “spirit” (Arabic: rūḥ) without distinction: Human spirit: The soul breathed into man (Qur’an 32:9) Revelatory agent: Jibrīl, also called Rūḥ al-Qudus Jesus: Described as a “spirit from God” in a metaphysical, not ontological, sense. > Just as “word” in the Bible has various meanings (e.g., God’s speech, Jesus as the Logos, or ordinary speech), “spirit” in Arabic and scripture also has contextual meanings. Failing to distinguish these is a category mistake. 7. Qur’an 17:85 – What Does “You Know Not About the Spirit” Mean? You mockingly state: “If Mohammed and Allah do not know what the Spirit is, would it be you that know?” That’s a gross misreading. The verse does not say Muhammad ﷺ does not know the Spirit’s identity, only that its full metaphysical nature is beyond human comprehension. Likewise, you don’t claim to know the full nature of God’s essence—but that doesn’t mean you know nothing about Him. This is an epistemological distinction between: Identification (what something is called) Essence (what something is in full metaphysical nature) 8. “Was Jibrīl Involved in Creation?” – A Strawman You ask sarcastically: “So Jibril was part of creating the universe?” Nowhere does Islam claim this. Jibrīl is a servant of God who delivers revelation—not a co-creator or divine power. This is like saying the postman wrote the letter he delivered. It's a false attribution of divine agency to an angelic intermediary. 9. “Allah Is the Best of Deceivers” – Out-of-Context Polemic This is a frequently debunked polemical attack. The Arabic word used is makr, which refers to strategic planning or counter-planning, especially against the plots of enemies. God “deceives” only deceivers—those who scheme against the truth (Qur’an 3:54). The same applies in the Bible: > “With the pure You show Yourself pure, and with the crooked You make Yourself seem tortuous.” (Psalm 18:26) Your objection reflects a misunderstanding of classical Arabic idiom. 10. Final Logical Fallacy: “If Our Scriptures Contradict the Qur’an, Then the Qur’an Is False” This is your closing assertion: > “If Islam is TRUE about our Scripture, then Islam is FALSE, for our Scriptures contradict Islam.” This is a false dilemma. Islam does not affirm the current text of the Bible as fully preserved. It accuses your scriptures of: Corruption (taḥrīf) in content Omission and addition Misinterpretation of symbols and prophecy So, if your scripture today contradicts the Qur’an, it is not Islam that is internally inconsistent—it is your assumption that your scripture has remained unaltered. ✅ Conclusion: Your response was not a logical rebuttal but a series of: Fallacies (appeals to consensus, false dilemmas, category mistakes) Misreadings of Islamic scripture Mockery and emotionally charged language, not rational refutation Once again, I invite you to focus on sincere, rational engagement, not rhetorical jabs. If you reject the Qur’anic view, do so based on a coherent argument, not selective outrage. > “Say, O People of the Scripture, do not exaggerate in your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the inclinations of people who went astray before.” (Qur’an 5:77) If you're willing to continue respectfully and rationally, I am open. If not, I leave you with: > "To you your religion, and to me mine." (Qur’an 109:6) May God guide us all to the truth. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 3:14pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you once again for your response. I appreciate your attempt to use an analogy from quantum mechanics to address the perceived paradoxes in Christian theology. However, with respect, your analogy—while imaginative—is flawed both in scope and category. Let me explain why, and respond directly to the claims you’ve made: 1. Category Error: Physics ≠ Theology Quantum tunneling, as observed in quantum mechanics, describes a physical phenomenon occurring under specific probabilistic laws of subatomic behavior. It is not a logical contradiction, even if it defies classical intuition. Physicists do not say: > “A particle is in two logically opposite states at once (e.g., dead and alive in the same sense)” They say: “Our classical intuitions don't apply at quantum scales, but the event remains mathematically consistent within a testable framework.” Now compare that to Trinitarian claims: God is immortal and died. God is omniscient and grew in knowledge. God is unchanging and took on a new nature. These are not merely counterintuitive—they are internally contradictory if taken literally in the same sense at the same time. So the analogy to quantum mechanics misrepresents the nature of the contradiction. A mystery is not the same as a logical impossibility. One is unknown; the other is incoherent. 2. Evidence Cannot Justify Logical Absurdity You said: > “We start with the certainty that Jesus is God based on evidence.” This raises an important question: What kind of evidence? If the evidence you cite is scriptural, then we must ask: Does that scripture consistently and clearly teach the divinity of Jesus, without contradiction? But even if one claims to have overwhelming textual evidence, it still does not resolve the issue. For example: If someone says, > “Here is strong textual evidence that 2+2=5,” we do not accept the conclusion simply because it’s “evidenced.” We test it against logic and coherence. Likewise, if a text asserts that God is both mortal and immortal, both omniscient and ignorant, both all-powerful and subject to death, we must ask whether the conclusion is logically tenable, not merely whether it's “claimed.” Your assertion that logic is too “limited” to test such claims is self-defeating. Because your very appeal to “evidence” requires the use of logic to assess it. If human logic is truly too limited to assess the claim “Jesus is God,” then you cannot also use human logic to argue that the “evidence” proves it. 3. We Must Distinguish Mystery from Incoherence It is not arrogance to test theological claims with reason—it is essential. God, in all monotheistic traditions, is the author of both revelation and reason. To suspend one in favor of the other is to divide what God has unified. Islam does not claim full knowledge of God's essence, but it affirms what God has revealed about Himself: > “There is nothing like unto Him.” (Qur’an 42:11) That is not speculation—it is revelation. And that revelation creates a logical boundary: If God is eternal, He does not die. If God is self-sufficient, He does not hunger. If God is all-knowing, He does not grow in knowledge. To say otherwise is to affirm contradictions—not mysteries. 4. A False Dilemma: Deny the Bible or Accept Contradiction You stated: > “The only way you can prove Jesus is not God is by denying the Bible.” Respectfully, this is a false dilemma. I do not have to deny every verse of the Bible to reject the doctrine of the Trinity or Jesus’s divinity. I can: Recognize that the Bible contains authentic teachings of past prophets, Acknowledge that it has undergone textual evolution and human interpretation, And conclude that certain later theological claims—such as the full divinity of Christ—are not part of the original message of monotheism. The Qur’an confirms earlier revelations but also corrects distortions introduced by people over time: > “They distort the words from their places…” (Qur’an 5:13) Thus, Islam neither rejects all of the Bible nor blindly accepts later theological innovations that contradict the message of pure monotheism taught by all prophets. 5. Conclusion: Faith Must Be Reasonable Let me summarize respectfully: Quantum mechanics describes physical mysteries—not logical contradictions. Appealing to evidence does not override logic—it must be consistent with it. Mystery does not license incoherence. Faith in God does not require suspension of reason—it invites its use. If the claim “Jesus is God” leads to a collapse of logical categories, then it is not the mystery that needs defending—but the claim itself that needs re-examination. Islam teaches: > “Say: He is Allah, [who is] One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent.” (Qur’an 112:1–4) That is not irrational simplicity—it is divine clarity. Let us continue our discussion not by dismissing reason, but by honoring the very faculty God gave us to seek the truth. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 4:30pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Once again, thanks for your erudite response. With respect, what you fail to grasp is the enormous limitations of human reasoning and logic. That's what my QM analogy is meant to illustrate. Remember, QM is still within this our dimension and within our microscopic spec of part of the universe, yet it doesn't make sense to us! But the really big deal is that you selectively (actually deceptively) apply your insistence on detailed vigorous logical coherence and consistency, when in fact religion as a whole cannot withstand such test. Otherwise explain to us how: * Allah can be in one place and everywhere at same time * Allah can simultaneously listen to one person and every person at same time * Never shows himself * Is inside everyone yet separate in one place * Starts creating when he never changes * Should care about your extremely microscopoc spec of a world and minutae of your life when there are trillions of galaxies Etc. So you see, we instinctively know certain things though they can't stand logical scrutiny. We know God can and did take on human form and visit planet earth. If you must subject that to rigorous logical examination, then subject religion itself to same, and you'll also conclude it doesn't make sense. Yet we instinctively know it is true. Respectfully, this should be the end of the discussion. I don't see how you can have anything to say after this |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 4:41pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Tell me, did Allah say these in the Quran? Qur'an 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone. Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not, So, you have to fabricate lies to re-interpret what was clearly said by Allah. When was the Scriptures of the Jews and that of the Christians distorted? I need dates or period! JimRohn:So, Mohammed was copying HARMLESS RELIGIOUS PRACTICES!? Okay! Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 was correct after all but needs re-interpretation by modern Muslims! Tell me where your propjet first heard of the Torment of the Grave! JimRohn:Islam is a continuation of the Religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Solomon and Jesus BUT not even one of them says that the Holy Spirit is any Angel. As they Treated the Holy Spirit either as the Person of God Himself or as the Power of God! It means you tell lies! Otherwise, I challenge you to give me one example any of your prophets hinted that the Holy Spirit was an Angel! JimRohn:Unfortunately, these are LIES 1. Jibril is as tall as a mountain 2. Jibril is identical to Mohammed's boyfriend Dihyah al-Kalbi 3. Jibril is the only Angel that squeezes prophets and never says "Peace be unto you" to them! The day the Spirit (singular) and the Angels shall stand in rows: but Jibril is an Angel! JimRohn:Is it illegal to Quote Allah? What is the essence of the Quran when you have to inject yourself between Allah and his speech? Admit that Allah either doesn't understand Arabic or he is the worst communicator alive! Jesus is a "Spirit from Allah" and your prophet even went higher to call him "Ruhullah" (spirit of Allah) : BUT According to you Allah and Mohammed actually do not mean what they said: they means something else! SMH!! JimRohn:So, you have to tell lies to resolve your problem RUH=NAFS! Islamic dictionary 101 Jibril is Nafs Al- Qudus According to you, the quran mean "The day the Nafs and the Angels will stand in rows..."! Your conclusion is that Allah's arabic doesn't know the difference between Soul and Spirit, so you have to help him re-explain his words. Thank you! JimRohn:Okay then If Allah or Mohammed knew what the spirit is, why didn't they just say it when the Jews began pestering with their questions? Let me help you with two answers that would have help Allah and his prophet 1. The Ruh is Jibril the Angel of Allah 2. The Ruh is Prophet Isa 3. The Ruh is Nafs the Soul And we would have been satisfied! BUT, what Allah doesn't know, he gives excuses about it. JimRohn:Moses says so in the Taurat in case you don't know! Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. JimRohn:Did not Allah say that he is the Best Deceiver!? Sorry: I forgot that in Arabic, the word Deceive mean to Guide aright! JimRohn:Allah never said these in his Quran Qur'an 2:41, Qur'an 2:89 , Qur'an 2:101 Secondly, Allah claims that no one can change his words Quran 6:115, Quran 10:64, Quran 15:9: Thirdly, According to the Quran itself, this Reminder also includes the previous Scriptures which God sent down for mankind. Case in point: Quran 21:7 And We sent not before you (O Muhammad) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder (ahla al-thikri) [Scriptures - the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know. cf. Quran 21:48, 105; Quran 40:53-54 Quran 15:9: Lo! We, even We, reveal THE Reminder (al-thikra), and lo! We verily are its Guardian. Did Allah fail to keep his books? So, the Muslims are in a dilemma. If the Quran confirms the Bible, then Islam is FALSE for the Bible contradicts it. JimRohn:Sorry, I wasn't mocking Islam, I was stating exactly what Allah and your prophet said: To Muslims, many sound stupid and irrational and this is why Muslims have to reinterpret the Quran or the Hadiths to make sense! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 6:29pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
TenQ:Your latest reply once again abandons calm, logical reasoning for sarcasm, misquotations, and intellectually dishonest polemics. Let me dismantle your claims step by step, using your own Bible, Islamic scripture, and consistent logic—not emotional outbursts. 🔹 1. Misuse of Verses About the Bible Being “With Them” You quote verses such as Qur’an 7:157 and 2:41–101 to claim that Islam affirms the current Torah and Gospel as they exist today. This is a shallow misreading. When the Qur’an refers to what is “with them,” it is referring to: The original revelations that existed among them Remnants of truth still preserved amidst corruption > Qur’an 2:79 explicitly says: “So woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say, ‘This is from Allah.’” It is not a contradiction to say the Qur’an confirms the original Torah and Gospel and simultaneously rejects the current corrupt versions. Your Bible includes anonymous authors, editorial insertions, contradictory accounts, and centuries of redaction—all documented by Christian scholarship itself (see Bart Ehrman, “Misquoting Jesus”). So your question, “When were the scriptures distorted?” is like asking when milk became sour—it spoils over time. Historical clues: The Council of Nicaea (325 CE): major doctrinal decisions on the divinity of Jesus. The Synod of Laodicea (4th century): canon formation, many books excluded. Gospel authors are anonymous; earliest complete manuscripts are centuries after Jesus. Ask your own scholars about textual corruption (e.g., interpolated endings in Mark, the Johannine Comma, etc.). Your demand for a “date stamp” on distortion is a red herring. 🔹 2. The Fallacy About Confirming the Scriptures = Approving All Their Content You commit a category error by assuming that the Qur’an “confirming” the scriptures means affirming all of their current content. This is false. “Tasdiq” (تَصْدِيق) in Qur’anic Arabic means to affirm the truth that remains and expose deviations. Qur’an 5:48 says: > “And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming what came before it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it...” If the Qur’an is a criterion, it judges, not blindly affirms. Your assumption is like saying: > “If a teacher confirms a student’s original essay had value, he must affirm every later edit and forgery made to it.” This is simply illogical. 🔹 3. Jibrīl (Gabriel) as the Holy Spirit – You Ignored the Qur’anic Evidence You ignored direct Qur’anic evidence equating Rūḥ al-Qudus with Jibrīl: Qur’an 2:97: “Say, whoever is an enemy to Gabriel—for he is the one who brings it (the Qur’an) down...” Qur’an 16:102: “Say, the Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord…” Same task, same revelation, same role = same identity. Your childish mockery (“So Allah doesn’t understand Arabic?”) shows desperation, not argumentation. You quote Genesis 1:2 about “the Spirit of God,” but fail to prove it is a distinct divine person. Where does Genesis say, “The Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with God and deserves worship”? Answer: Nowhere. Your theology is retroactively injected into the text, just like your forced Trinitarian readings into ambiguous verses. 🔹 4. Your Challenge: “Show One Prophet Who Called the Holy Spirit an Angel” Here’s your logical trap: you assume that if no prophet called the Holy Spirit an angel explicitly, it cannot be true. Where did Moses, Jesus, or David explicitly say: “The Holy Spirit is God”? > Give a verse where any prophet says: “Worship the Holy Spirit.” You won't find it. That’s why your standard fails you. Islam is not bound to Jewish or Christian post-biblical definitions. Gabriel is called the Spirit in Christian apocryphal texts too. Moreover, if the Qur’an clearly names the Holy Spirit as Gabriel, your appeal to what Jewish rabbis or early Christians thought is irrelevant to Islam. 🔹 5. You Mock “Harmless Religious Practices” You continue to beat a strawman. No Muslim said the Prophet ﷺ copied theological beliefs from the People of the Book. Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 refers to harmless customs, like hairstyles—not divine doctrines. Your attempt to conflate imitation of neutral customs with doctrinal borrowing is logically laughable. Also, mocking traditions like “Torment of the Grave” ignores the fact that this is found in authentic hadith, not fabricated legends. If you want to debate hadith authenticity, come with proper isnād analysis, not rhetorical jabs. 🔹 6. The “Best of Deceivers” Canard You dishonestly twist Qur’an 3:54 (makr) as “deceit.” > Makr in Arabic = strategic planning in response to the enemy’s schemes. God foils plots of plotters. If you call that “deception,” then your Bible should be condemned too: Ezekiel 14:9: “If a prophet is deceived, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.” 2 Thessalonians 2:11: “God sends them a powerful delusion…” Your double standard is exposed. You mock makr in Islam but ignore deceit attributed to God in your Bible. 🔹 7. “Qur’an Says No One Can Change Allah’s Words” – Another Misuse When the Qur’an says: > “None can change His words” (6:115, 10:64), It refers to His decrees and promises, not the integrity of past scriptures preserved in human hands. Even your Bible says: > “The scribes have lied” (Jeremiah 8:  ,“How can you say, ‘We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,’ when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” So do you reject Jeremiah too? 🔹 8. Your Final Fallacy: “If the Bible Contradicts the Qur’an, the Qur’an Must Be False” That is absurd logic. By that same logic: Judaism proves Christianity false—since Jews reject your Trinitarian doctrines. Hindus could claim your rejection of reincarnation proves your religion false. Contradiction does not mean falsity—unless you first prove the authority of your source. Islam does not grant the Bible that authority in its current form. You must first demonstrate: That your current Bible is unaltered That Jesus taught the Trinity That the Holy Spirit is a divine person co-equal with God You’ve proven none of these—just repeated slogans and mockery. ✅ Final Response: Your replies are full of: Fallacious arguments (appeal to consensus, strawmen, red herrings) Mockery and sarcasm in place of serious theology Scriptural misreadings and forced Christian dogma Islam does not need reinterpretation—you need intellectual consistency. The Qur’an remains internally coherent, linguistically unmatched, and theologically unshaken by shallow polemics. If you wish to continue, I suggest you elevate your discourse. Otherwise: > “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (Qur’an 109:6) May the truth prevail. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 6:47pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you for your reply and for engaging with the topic so candidly. While I appreciate your sincerity and the intent behind your comments, I believe your response unintentionally illustrates the very dilemma I was highlighting—namely, the conflation of mystery with logical incoherence. Let me address your points clearly and respectfully. 1. Quantum Mechanics Does Not Justify Theological Contradictions You’ve reiterated that quantum mechanics (QM) defies our understanding, suggesting that, similarly, theological contradictions should be acceptable. However, this comparison fails in a critical way. Quantum mechanics may be counterintuitive, but it is not incoherent. It functions within a rigorous and mathematically consistent framework. Scientists may not intuitively understand wave-particle duality or quantum entanglement, but these concepts do not violate the law of non-contradiction. They are observable, testable, and mathematically predictable. Contrast that with theological statements such as: God is omniscient and grew in knowledge God is immortal and died God is immutable and became flesh These are not mysteries—they are logical contradictions if affirmed in the same sense and at the same time. And no appeal to scientific mystery can resolve a formal contradiction. The issue is not that we don’t understand how these things work—it’s that they are logically impossible when taken literally. 2. Misrepresenting Islamic Theology Does Not Justify Trinitarian Contradictions You proposed several rhetorical challenges to Islamic beliefs, such as: “How can Allah be in one place and everywhere at once?” “How can He hear all people at the same time?” “How can He act while being unchanging?” But these are not contradictions; they are theological questions that fall within the realm of divine attributes. Islam holds that: Allah is not limited by space or time. He is not "in" a place; He is beyond all spatial and temporal constraints (Qur’an 6:103). Allah hears and knows all things, not sequentially or through physical mechanisms, but by His timeless, attribute of knowledge and will (Qur’an 2:255). Allah acts without undergoing change in His essence, because His will is eternal, and His actions manifest in creation without altering His being. These are mysteries of transcendence, not violations of logic. But the claim that God is simultaneously fully God (immortal, all-knowing, omnipotent) and fully man (mortal, ignorant, limited) in the same person at the same time is a category error that collapses under logical scrutiny. 3. Reason Is Not the Enemy of Faith You stated: > “We instinctively know certain things though they can't stand logical scrutiny.” But if that principle is consistently applied, then every theological claim—true or false—becomes equally valid simply because someone “instinctively” believes it. A Hindu could say, "I instinctively know there are many gods," or a polytheist might say, "I instinctively believe in divine incarnations." Does that make their beliefs true? If we abandon logic as the filter, then all truth claims become equally unverifiable and indistinguishable. Ironically, your very appeal to instinct or experience still relies on reason to argue that those instincts are valid and should be trusted. One cannot say, “Logic fails,” and then use logic to argue for that conclusion. 4. Faith Must Be Reasonable, Even If Not Exhaustive No Muslim claims that God is fully comprehensible. Islam affirms God's transcendence and mystery. But it distinguishes clearly between what is beyond reason and what is against reason. God’s essence may be incomprehensible. But His revealed attributes must be logically coherent: Eternal = not subject to death All-knowing = not ignorant Independent = not in need Islam never says “God became a man.” Because that would entail that the Unlimited became limited, the Eternal entered time, and the Dependent became Independent—which are mutually exclusive. 5. Ending a Conversation Doesn’t End the Inquiry You concluded by saying: > “Respectfully, this should be the end of the discussion. I don't see how you can have anything to say after this.” I understand that theological discussions can be intense, and you are of course free to disengage. But truth is not a matter of who gets the last word—it is a matter of coherence, consistency, and sincerity in seeking it. As Muslims, we believe in using the mind God gave us to test claims, weigh evidence, and avoid affirming contradictions—because the One who revealed Himself is also the One who created reason. > “Will they not reflect?” (Qur’an 59:21) If a claim demands that we suspend the very tools God gave us for discernment, then it is not a divine mystery—it is a human fabrication. Conclusion I don’t say this to win a debate, but to clarify a principle: Mystery is not a license for incoherence. Faith begins where reason ends, but it must never begin against reason. Let us not confuse reverence with irrationality. Islam’s message remains: > “He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent.” (Qur’an 112) This is not evasive simplicity—it is sublime coherence. I remain open to sincere discussion should you choose to continue. With respect and clarity! |
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