Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims - Islam (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 7:50pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:When I said Islam cannot survive without lies, it is an understatement. Muslims must re-interprete Allah's clear words as if he is incapable of making clear conscise statements. Let me address your erroneous defences. 1. You said: When the Qur’an refers to what is “with them,” it is referring to: The original revelations that existed among them AND Remnants of truth still preserved amidst corruption You see, like helping a toddler just learning to speak, you have to help the meaning of the words of Allah which to me is a complete disrespect for Allah by you. The sarcasm isn't at Allah but at you until you learn to respect him and take him by his words. Qur'an 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. 1. What are the names of the two Books of Allah in this verse? 2. Who are these two books of Allah with? (Who are the them in this verse?) 3. Where is the name of this unlearned Messenger whose name is found in the corrupted Torah and Injeel? Let's look at the second and third verses Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone. Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 1. Let's assume the Torah and Injeel are corrupted: your argument is that the Qur'an confirms the corrupted revelations that was with the Jews and Christians? 2. Do you affirm that If the Qur'an confirms a corrupted revelation that is in the possession of Jews and Christians, then the Qur'an MUST logically also be also corrupted? Let's look at the fourth verse of the Qur'an: Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not, 1. Is it untrue that Even though Mohammed cannot read nor write (according to the standard Islamic Narrative), he confirms our scriptures? 2. When Allah says: "a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not" , what does it mean ? So, you have to fabricate lies to re-interpret what was clearly said by Allah. When was the Scriptures of the Jews and that of the Christians distorted? I need dates or period! You then went to expose the fact that Allah was ignorant of the fact that some people in 325 AD rewrote the Torah and Injeel which was in use 300 years after, during the time of Mohammed. Unfortunately, Allah either didn't know of the Council of Nicea / Laodicea and their corruption so, This corrupted scripture of the Jews and Christians in 630 AD was confirmed by both Allah and his prophet Mohammed! Does this even make sense to you!? You quoted Qur’an 2:79 “So woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands, then say, ‘This is from Allah.’” Tell me, 1. Was the Qur'an written with hands of men or by the finger of God? I will answer you, up to 1924, the Qur'an was written by Hands? 2. Who are the people who claims that their handwritten scripture is from Allah? Is it the Jews, or the Christians or the Muslims? What does it even mean by the word "CONFIRM" in the phrase "Confirming a Book"!? Do you see how your answers make you look hilarious!? Like I said, I wasn't mocking Islam, I was stating exactly what Allah and your prophet said: But to Muslims, many sound stupid and irrational and this is why Muslims have to reinterpret the Quran or the Hadiths to make sense! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 8:31pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thank God for prophet Internet , do you know him? Let me ask him to explain the meaning of the word (تَصْدِيق) from Arabic My prophet says the dictionary meaning of (تَصْدِيق) Is 1. To attest to 2. To confirm something 3. To validate something 4. To Ratify an information Let me attach the dictionary for your from prophet Google! LOL! Then you went on to use another word which you assumed I wouldn't know from Qur’an 5:48 “And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming what came before it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it...” 1. Is it untrue that Linguistically, "Furqan" means "that which separates or distinguishes," and it can apply to anything that differentiates right from wrong, not just a specific book. 2. Can you say that the Furqan is only the Qur'an or affirm that every scripture is the Furqan! Qur'an 2:53 "And [recall] when We gave Moses the Scripture and the Furqān, that perhaps you would be guided." Qur'an 21:48 "And We had already given Moses and Aaron the Furqān, and a light and a reminder for the righteous." 3. According to the Quran itself, this Reminder also includes the previous Scriptures which God sent down for mankind. Quran 21:7 And We sent not before you (O Muhammad) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder (ahla al-thikri) [Scriptures - the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know. cf. Quran 21:48, 105; Quran 40:53-54 Quran 15:9: Lo! We, even We, reveal THE Reminder (al-thikra), and lo! We verily are its Guardian. Tell me, Did Allah fail to protect his books? This is what you are trying hard to prove sir.
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| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 9:18pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:You are the one who makes a mockery of the words of Allah and not me. How, by re-interpreting every thing he says that you don't like? Is it UNTRUE that Your Standard Islamic Narrative says that Abraham, Moses, David. Solomon and Jesus are Muslims? If they are, show us where ANY of them remotely says that the Holy Spirit is an Angel? Did the Jews and Christians erase those from their scriptures? JimRohn:Let me show you one of those harmless traditions which was a lie believed by your prophet. If you disagree that the tradition of the Jews is true, show us one source of the Jews where they taught of the torment of the grave. Sahih Muslim 586 a 'A'isha reported: There came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and said: The people of the grave are tormented in their graves. I contradicted them and I did not deem it proper to testify them. They went away and the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came to me and I said to him: Messenger of Allah I there came to me two old women from the old Jewesses of Medina and asserted that the people of the graves would be tormented therein. He (the Prophet) said: They told the truth; they would be tormented (so much) that the animals would listen to it. She ('A'isha) said: Never did I see him (the Holy Prophet) afterwards but seeking refuge from the torment of the grave in prayer. 1. Two old Jewish women told fables about the torment of the grave 2. Mohammed became so scared that he incorporated it into his Deen and 3. Believed it so much that he couldn't pray without seeking refuge from this torment Here is your prophet who was supposed to be praying in his grave as the most beloved prophet of Allah, afraid of the torment of the grave! Does this make sense to you? Compare with Jesus: John 14:5-6: "Thomas said to him, Lord, we know not where you go; and how can we know the way?" "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." I invite you to the Messiah for your salvation and deliverance from the punishment of Hell Fire! JimRohn:1. I have attached the dictionary meaning of the word Makr please judge 2. According to Muslim, is the Qur'an, Taurat and Injeel Allah's words? If they are Can someone change the words of Allah? Don't forget that even the Torah was written by Allah for Moses. Tell me, is this the words of Allah or not? Qur'an 7:145 "And We wrote for him on the Tablets [al-alwāḥ] something of all things — instruction and explanation for all things — [saying], 'Take them with determination and order your people to take the best of it.'" 3. You then gave an absurd and Illogical analogy and said: Judaism proves Christianity false—since Jews reject your Trinitarian doctrines. NO sir, it is more like Judaism confirms the New Testament but then Rejects both the New Testament and Christianity Exactly like Islam confirms the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians but then Rejects the Bible and Judaism with Christianity Sorry, Islam breaks down terribly under scrutiny,,,.
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| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 9:32pm On Jun 10, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your Politeness. Once again my analogy using QM is to illustrate just a little bit how limited man's logic is. We still don't know the why of QM, we just know it is the way it is. Naming something or using mathematics to describe it doesn't mean you understand why it is so. Can't you see you can't win this argument? Because if you apply logic to religion as a whole it will also collapse. You can't selectively apply logic. You touched on it when you said that'd mean other religions are also right. YES, they are also "right"! It's all about belief NOT logic! You keep using the word "truth". Just because you believe something doesn't make it the truth! If you don't mind, please address only this paragraph in your next response, to keep things short and simple. Thanks. Please, in simple language, clearly tell us the difference between your logical objections to incarnation and these: * God knows everything (meaning everything is predetermined), yet man has free will * God is in Heaven yet same exact God is everywhere and in everyone * God never changes yet at some point same God changed and started creating things * God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all good, yet evil exists. * God is all-loving yet pain, disease, and natural disasters exist * God is just, yet injustice exists and destinies seem alloted arbitrarily not based on merit Add yours |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 2:11am On Jun 11, 2025 |
TenQ:Your entire reply is a parade of arrogance, willful ignorance, and circular reasoning cloaked in mock sincerity. Let’s strip it down piece by piece and expose the intellectual bankruptcy of your claims. 🔹 1. “You are disrespecting Allah by interpreting His words” This is perhaps the most laughable part of your entire rant. You pretend to be so concerned about the “honor of Allah” while denying the Qur’an and His final Prophet (ﷺ). Your sudden piety is hypocrisy in its purest form. If you think quoting a verse means no contextual or linguistic understanding is needed, then your entire religion is a house of cards. Are you suggesting that every verse—no matter the audience, timeframe, or usage—is to be read like a fortune cookie? That’s not reverence. That’s biblical literalism gone mad. The Qur’an does not confirm the corrupted Bible, it confirms what originally came from Allah—not what you have today, filled with human insertions, contradictions, and missing authors (your own scholars say this, not us). Quoting verses like 7:157 and 2:89 in isolation and pretending they affirm the modern Bible is either delusion or dishonesty—likely both. 🔹 2. You ask: “What are the names of the two Books of Allah in 7:157?” Answer: Torah and Injeel. The Qur’an does not deny that these books were originally revealed. But you conveniently ignore Qur’an 2:79, which you couldn’t even refute: > “Woe to those who write the book with their hands and then say, ‘This is from Allah.’” This exposes you. The Qur’an directly accuses people of fabricating scripture and falsely labeling it divine. So yes, it acknowledges the names of the books while condemning their altered content. That’s not contradiction—it’s divine precision. If you can’t grasp that, go back and read again—slowly this time. 🔹 3. “If the Qur’an confirms what they have, does it confirm corruption?” Absolutely not. Your error lies in your failure to grasp the difference between “tasdiq” (confirmation) and “tafsil” (full validation). 🔸 Tasdiq means confirmation of truths that are still present—not blind acceptance of everything between your man-made covers. Even Christian scholars like Raymond Brown admit the textual corruption of your scriptures. So your demand that Islam accept the entirety of a corrupted text or reject all of it is a false dichotomy—a logical fallacy unworthy of a serious discussion. 🔹 4. “When were the scriptures distorted? I want dates!” You're asking “when” something occurred that your own scholars can’t precisely date. Are you denying that biblical textual corruption exists unless we can timestamp every edit? By that logic, if I don’t know the exact day Judas betrayed Jesus, then it never happened. Let me educate you: The ending of Mark (16:9–20) is a later forgery. Christian scholars agree. The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) is a Trinitarian fabrication. The Book of Hebrews is anonymous and contradicts Levitical Law. The Council of Nicaea (325 CE) established divinity doctrines never preached by Jesus. This is documented history—not Muslim conspiracy. So don’t play dumb. The corruption is cumulative. Like spoiled milk, it decays over time. 🔹 5. “The Qur’an was written by hand too!” This is an attempt at false equivalency. Yes, the Qur’an was written by hands—but under direct supervision, memorization, and transmission from the Prophet ﷺ and his Companions. The Qur’an is mutawatir—mass transmitted, verified by thousands, recited word-for-word across the globe for 14 centuries. No council voted it into existence. No Roman emperor dictated its canon. No one inserted verses centuries later. Now contrast that with: Gospel of Mark: Anonymous Gospel of Matthew: Anonymous Gospel of Luke: “It seemed good to me also…” – Luke 1:3 (your author admits he’s writing his own version) So don’t compare divinely preserved oral and written revelation with your patchwork quilt of Greco-Roman hearsay. 🔹 6. “The Prophet confirms the Scripture they had!” Yes—he confirms what was originally from Allah, not your Greek-influenced, Pauline-tinged gospel according to anonymous scribes. Even your own book says the Jews corrupted the scripture: > Jeremiah 8:8 – “How can you say, ‘We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,’ when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” You quote verses from the Qur’an with zero comprehension. You pretend every reference to “Torah” or “Injeel” means endorsement of the exact books sitting on your shelf—as if Allah didn’t warn about corruption, tampering, and hiding the truth. 🔹 7. You accuse Muslims of lying to defend the Qur’an? Projection at its finest. The lies are yours: You lie about what “confirm” means. You lie about the Qur’an affirming your entire book. You lie about the Qur’an being like the Bible. You lie about early Church councils being irrelevant to scriptural distortion. Islam doesn’t need to lie. The Qur’an exposes you. You’re just upset it doesn’t bend to your manipulated scriptures and man-made dogmas. 🔚 Final Words: You demand “clear words” from Allah, yet when He says “Woe to those who write the book with their hands,” you play dumb. You treat the Qur’an like it should validate your man-altered texts—but Allah doesn't submit to Rome or the pen of Paul. > You want confirmation for your corruption? That’s like asking a judge to endorse a forged contract. Until you can prove: that your Gospels were written by eye-witnesses (you can’t), that your canon was divinely preserved (it wasn’t), and that your scripture was not edited by councils (it was), you are in no position to lecture Muslims on “truth” or “clarity.” May Allah guide those who seek truth, and expose those who hide it. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 2:29am On Jun 11, 2025 |
TenQ:Your reply is yet another display of mockery dressed up as theology, memes replacing meaning, and sarcasm substituting scholarship. So let me respond without the emojis and playground taunts—with Quranic clarity and unapologetic truth. 🔹 1. You Mock the Word “Tasdīq” — and Expose Your Own Ignorance Congratulations on Googling a dictionary. But you’ve once again misunderstood the difference between dictionary meaning and Qur'anic usage (istilāh)—a basic distinction in every field of study, including Biblical exegesis. Let me teach you the part your “Prophet Google” forgot: Yes, “tasdīq” lexically means "confirmation, attestation, ratification." But Qur’anic usage is contextual, not wooden literalism. > Qur'an 5:48: “And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming (muṣaddiqan) what was before it and **as a criterion (muhayminan) over it...” Here’s the key point your sarcasm failed to notice: 🔸 The Qur’an doesn’t just confirm—it also oversees (مُهَيْمِنًا) and judges previous scriptures. That means it corrects, clarifies, and discards falsehoods that people added over time. So the tafsir (explanation) of scholars like Ibn Kathir and Al-Tabari is crystal clear: > The Qur’an confirms the original truth that came before—not the corrupt versions Jews and Christians altered. This destroys your claim that tasdīq = blind ratification. You’re either unable to understand context, or unwilling. Either way, you’re wrong. 🔹 2. You Confuse the “Furqan” with the Whole Bible — That’s Desperation You appeal to the word “Furqan” being applied to Moses and Aaron’s scripture. So what? > Yes — the Torah was Furqan before it was corrupted. Yes — the Qur’an is Furqan and remains uncorrupted. The designation of “Furqan” doesn’t mean every scripture today is still Furqan. By your logic, since a torch was once lit, it must still be burning. Nonsense. Here’s what you ignored: Qur’an 2:75 – “Do you (Muslims) still expect them to believe you while a group of them used to hear the Word of Allah and then knowingly distort it after understanding it?” Qur’an 2:79 – “Woe to those who write the book with their own hands and say ‘This is from Allah.’” If the earlier scriptures are still protected and unaltered, explain why Allah accuses people of writing fake scripture. You can’t. You just pick random words (“Reminder,” “Furqan”) and use them without context like buzzwords in a meme war. 🔹 3. “Did Allah Fail to Protect His Books?” No—Allah protected the original revelations when they were revealed. But He never promised to preserve all scriptures forever—until the Qur’an. Let’s quote the verse you twisted: > Qur’an 15:9 – “Indeed, We have revealed the Reminder (al-dhikr), and We will certainly preserve it.” This verse is explicitly about the Qur’an, not the Bible or Torah. All classical tafsir agree. So your question—“Did Allah fail to protect His books?”—is like asking: > “If you had an older version of software that was corrupted, and now you release the final secure version with protection, did you fail before?” No—the earlier versions were provisional, meant for a time and people, and corrupted by those people. Only the final version—the Qur’an—was promised eternal protection. You conflate different revelations, time periods, and audiences—because that’s the only way to cling to your failing argument. 🔹 4. “Ask the People of the Reminder (Qur’an 21:7)” Another classic Christian misquote. The verse says: > “So ask the people of the Reminder (Ahl al-Dhikr) if you do not know.” This doesn’t mean affirm everything they say. It means to ask those who were informed previously if you are ignorant—about what came before, not as a confirmation of current corrupt texts. Moreover, the “Reminder” in their possession was what remained of God’s message, not the corrupted volumes Christians today parade around. Even then, Qur’an 2:101 says: > “A party of those who were given the Scripture threw the Book of Allah behind their backs…” So stop cherry-picking verses. The Qur’an doesn’t trust all of them. It exposes many of them for corruption. 🔚 Final Blow: Your Whole Foundation Is Built on a Fallacy You keep screaming: > “See! It says Torah and Gospel! So your Qur’an affirms our Bible!” No. That’s like saying: > “You said ‘Jesus’! That must mean you accept everything we say about him!” Not at all. The Qur’an refers to: The original Torah (Tawrat) revealed to Moses, The original Gospel (Injeel) given to Jesus, Not your current canon chosen by Roman councils and tampered by scribes over centuries. So let me be crystal clear: 🔸 The Qur’an confirms the revelation sent to Moses and Jesus. 🔸 It does not confirm the current Bible which contains: Dozens of forged letters (like 2 Peter), Anonymous Gospels contradicting each other, Roman Trinitarian theology invented long after Christ. Your entire argument collapses under scrutiny. All you’re left with are cheap jokes, dictionary screenshots, and out-of-context verses. If your religion were so strong, you wouldn’t need mockery and manipulation to defend it. But Islam stands unshaken, because the Qur’an exposes corruption and preserves truth. > May Allah humiliate falsehood and elevate the truth, even if the disbelievers hate it. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 2:52am On Jun 11, 2025 |
TenQ:Your reply once again displays more sarcasm than substance, more emotion than exegesis, and more memes than theology. Let’s clean up the intellectual mess you’ve left behind. 🔹 1. "Abraham, Moses, Jesus Were Muslims – But Where Did They Say the Holy Spirit is an Angel?" You’re confusing yourself with your own flawed logic. Islam teaches that every prophet submitted to God (Allah)—this is the definition of a Muslim. It doesn't mean they all spoke Arabic or used later terminologies. Now you ask: > "Where did Abraham or Jesus say the Holy Spirit is an angel?" Here’s the rebuttal: Where did ANY prophet say the Holy Spirit is God? > Did Abraham say: “Worship the Holy Spirit”? Did Moses say: “The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity”? No prophet ever did. So by your own criteria, your belief is crushed. The Qur’an is the final clarification, and it states explicitly: > “The Holy Spirit brought it down from your Lord” (Qur’an 16:102) “Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel... it is he who brought it down” (Qur’an 2:97) Same task. Same role. Same identity. The conclusion is obvious. The real issue is this: You’re trying to force Trinitarian dogma onto scripture that never teaches it. That's not exegesis—that’s doctrinal colonization. 🔹 2. The “Torment of the Grave” Hadith – Your Strawman Burns Again Let’s break it down since you clearly didn’t read your own citation. You quote: > "Two old Jewish women said the dead are tormented… The Prophet ﷺ said: They spoke the truth." And then you mockingly say: > "See? He copied it from them!" What a lazy and self-defeating argument. First, the Prophet ﷺ corrected his own assumption after revelation confirmed the reality. That’s called honesty—not blind copying. Second, if a Jewish woman says 2+2=4, and the Prophet agrees—does that mean he copied her? No. Truth remains truth regardless of who states it. Third, this tradition matches Islamic theology, not Jewish mythology. Just because remnants of truth survive in other religions doesn’t mean Islam borrows from them. > “They told the truth…” This doesn’t mean: “They invented it and I’ll adopt it.” It means: “What they said happens to be true, and Allah has confirmed it.” Your desperate attempt to turn an incidental overlap into doctrinal plagiarism only exposes your shallow reasoning. 🔹 3. Mocking the Prophet’s Fear of the Grave Torment – But Jesus Cried and Sweated Blood? You mock the Prophet ﷺ for fearing the torment of the grave. Yet your Bible says: > Hebrews 5:7 – “Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to Him who was able to save him from death…” Luke 22:44 – “And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly; and His sweat became like drops of blood…” So let’s apply your own mockery: > "Jesus was so afraid, He begged God not to die and sweat blood. How can He be divine if He was so terrified?" Be consistent. If fear invalidates prophethood or truth, your theology collapses on itself. 🔹 4. Makr (Divine Planning) – Your Hypocrisy is Blinding You said: > "Here's the dictionary definition of makr—so it means deceit." Stop playing the dictionary game when it suits you. Here’s the full truth: 🔸 Makr in Arabic means strategic planning, often in response to enemy schemes. It can be used positively or negatively based on the context. In the Qur’an: > “They planned, and Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.” (3:54) It clearly refers to Allah outwitting evil schemers—not lying. Now compare with YOUR Bible: Ezekiel 14:9 – “If the prophet is deceived, I, the LORD have deceived that prophet.” 2 Thessalonians 2:11 – “God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.” That’s actual deception, not strategy. So again: double standard exposed. 🔹 5. “Can Someone Change the Words of Allah?” – You Misunderstood the Qur’an, Again You asked: > “If the Torah and Injeel are Allah’s words, can they be changed?” Answer: Yes, Allah's revealed messages can be corrupted by people, but His ultimate decree and final revelation (the Qur’an) cannot. Let’s be precise: Qur’an 6:115 – “None can change His words…” Refers to Allah’s decrees, not every past scripture written down by humans. Qur’an 2:79 – “Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and say, ‘This is from Allah.’” That’s your answer: Yes, people tampered with Allah’s previous revelations—the Qur’an says so. Even your own Bible agrees: > Jeremiah 8:8 – “The lying pen of the scribes has falsified it.” So if you trust the Bible, start by believing it when it admits the text has been tampered. 🔹 6. You Butchered the Analogy You claimed: > “Judaism confirms the New Testament but then rejects it… just like Islam.” Wrong. That’s historical and theological nonsense. Judaism does NOT confirm the New Testament. They reject Jesus as Messiah, period. Islam, however, affirms: Jesus was born miraculously He was a prophet He brought the Injeel He will return But rejects fabricated divinity, crucifixion myths, and Pauline distortions. Islam clarifies and completes previous revelations—not contradicts them without basis like Christianity did with Jewish monotheism. 🔚 Final Verdict: Your Argument Is Nothing But Strawmen, Cherry-Picking, and Mockery You bring: ✗ No proof that Jesus taught the Trinity ✗ No proof the Holy Spirit is a divine person ✗ No proof that the current Bible is unaltered ✗ No explanation of Biblical contradictions ✗ No consistent theological method Just mockery, memes, and misquotes. If this is how you defend your faith, you’ve already lost. Islam doesn’t tremble before sarcastic missionaries or recycled polemics. It stands on: ✅ Clear revelation ✅ Rational theology ✅ Historical preservation ✅ Prophetic integrity If your only method is mockery, then: > “Let them mock—indeed, Allah is the One who has the last laugh.” (cf. Qur’an 9:79) And as Allah says: > “To you your religion, and to me mine.” (109:6) But remember: > “Indeed, the religion with Allah is Islam.” (Qur’an 3:19) |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 3:09am On Jun 11, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you again for your continued engagement and for narrowing the focus of the discussion. I appreciate your desire for clarity and simplicity, so I will address the core of your paragraph as requested. The Key Distinction: Paradox vs. Contradiction You asked: What is the difference between my objection to the doctrine of Incarnation (God becoming man) and theological questions such as: God knows everything, yet man has free will God is beyond space yet present everywhere God never changes yet began creating God is all-good, yet evil exists God is all-loving, yet suffering exists God is just, yet injustice exists This is a fair and important question, and the answer lies in a critical distinction between mystery and logical contradiction—or more precisely: paradox vs. impossibility. 1. Islamic Theology Affirms Divine Mystery Without Logical Contradiction In all the examples you listed, there is tension or mystery, but not an outright logical contradiction. Let me illustrate: a. Divine Knowledge and Human Free Will > Apparent paradox: If God knows all future actions, how can humans be free? Response: Islam acknowledges this as a profound mystery. But it is not a contradiction unless you assert that God’s knowledge causes human action in a deterministic sense. Islam holds that God's foreknowledge does not negate human freedom—He knows what we will choose, but we are still the agents of those choices. The two can coexist without logical contradiction, even if the mechanism is mysterious. b. God Being Beyond Space Yet Present Everywhere Response: Islam teaches that God is not a body, not in a place, and not subject to spatial constraints. His “being everywhere” refers to His knowledge, power, and authority—not physical presence. There is no contradiction here, only a distinction between transcendence and immanence. c. God Never Changes Yet Created Response: Creation is not a change in God’s essence, but a manifestation of His eternal will. God’s will to create is eternal, but the effects of that will manifest in time. There’s no change in God Himself—only in the created world. d. The Problem of Evil and Suffering Response: This is an emotional and philosophical problem, not a formal contradiction. God may allow evil and suffering for purposes that include testing, purification, moral growth, or wisdom beyond human grasp. While we may not fully understand why, the existence of suffering does not logically contradict God’s attributes unless we define “goodness” in a limited, human-centric way. 2. The Incarnation Is a Logical Contradiction Now contrast this with the doctrine of Incarnation—that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time and in the same person. This is not a paradox or mystery—it is a formal contradiction: God is immortal – cannot die Man is mortal – does die God is all-knowing – cannot be ignorant Man is limited in knowledge – learns and forgets God is independent – needs nothing Man is dependent – eats, sleeps, suffers To say Jesus is 100% God and 100% man simultaneously is to say: He is mortal and immortal Limited and unlimited Created and uncreated These are not mysteries—they are mutually exclusive attributes. It’s not that we don’t understand how this works; it’s that it cannot logically work by definition. To affirm both at the same time is to affirm that A = not-A, which violates the principle of non-contradiction—the foundation of all rational thought. 3. Conclusion: Logical Boundaries Matter So, to answer your challenge directly: > The difference is that your list includes paradoxes, which are difficult but not logically impossible. > The doctrine of the Incarnation is a contradiction—affirming two opposite truths in the same respect, at the same time. Islam respects mystery, but it does not affirm the logically absurd. Belief does not require rejecting reason. Rather, true belief integrates heart and mind. If belief asks us to affirm that the unlimited became limited or the unchangeable changed, we are not dealing with mystery—we are dealing with incoherence disguised as faith. Thank you for the thoughtful exchange. I remain open to continuing the conversation. > “Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth… are signs for those who reflect.” (Qur’an 3:190) |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 6:18am On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:Islam teaches that Every prophet is a Muslim, it question was obvious AT least ONE of them will insinuate that Jibril is the Holy Spirit! Who amongst them: just one is enough? This is the question. JimRohn:Didn't I show you evidence from your Qur'an that Mohammed used to copy from the Jews? You said they were harmless traditions he copied! But then I showed you that shaped your theology and Mohammed's own Show us prior times when Mohammed prayed for refuge from the torment of the grave before hearing these old women? Can you show us any Rabbinic narrative that affirms the torment of the grave!? JimRohn:Jesus was fully human too and humans do not enjoy pain: it is understandable. Your Prophet is supposed to be guaranteed of paradise. He is the first to be resurrected! Yet, he is afraid of torments of the grave. If your prophet is not to experience Pain in the grave, what is he afraid of? Even the small me is NOT afraid of death: how much more the greatest prophet of Allah! JimRohn:In modern Arabic, the word "makr" (مكر) is always negative. It means deceit, cunning, trickery, or scheming — typically with malicious or manipulative intent. Otherwise, give me just 5 positive sentences in Arabic showing makr in any positive sense? Ezekiel said God deceived him into giving a message to the Israelite when He already knew that God's word will not result in any change in them. Read the book again. Here Allah gives himself the TITLE the very best Al-Makr. This is an Identity rather than an activity. Eg. One can kill without being a Killer One can get drunk without being a Drunk Here is a serious Identity Problem: Allah himself is the Al-Makr JimRohn:I have shown you that it is only Muslims who wrote the Qur'an with their hands and said this is from Allah! None can change the Words of Allah BUT then written words of Allah can be changed. Jeremiah 8:8 was simply saying that just as you Muslims (re-interpreted the words of Allah in the Qur'an), the scribes have made false to words of God by their re-interpretations of the Torah. Unfortunately, if you insist that the Torah at the time of Jeremiah was corrupted, then it is a conclusive proof that Allah cannot be God because he is IGNORANT of this that the Jews at the time of Mohammed had the uncorrupted Torah! Did Allah make this difference or you are the one helping him to speak clearly as usual. Islam is a contradiction of lies! Don't you Muslims use this verse to prove that the Quran is word for word, letter for letter preserved even up to the diacritical marks? Is this another lie? JimRohn:You got it: you said, > “Judaism confirms the New Testament but then rejects it… just like Islam.” That’s historical and theological nonsense. Judaism does NOT confirm the New Testament. They reject Jesus as Messiah, period. You just proved that Islam is a historical and theological nonsense Islam affirms the Scripture of the Jews and the Christians, then turns around to reject both their Scriptures and Religion. Indeed it is a Historical and A theological nonsense! I guess, we should debate on the preservation of the Qur'an and let's see if the Qur'an is preserved. Do you accept the challenge? |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 6:42am On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:You have said it all Tasdiq has been re-interpreted to conform to the interpretation of the Scholars of Islam. It is the reason why you cannot be trusted. Let's test the Qur'an if it is qualified to be a criterion over the scripture of the Jews and Christians 1. What is the true name of Abraham in the Qur'an? Is it إِبْرَاهِيم (Ibrāhīm) or إِبْرَاهَام (Ibrāhām)? 2. According to Allah, who is the man called Israel? 3. Which servant of Allah was taken to then farthest mosque? Talk is cheap! JimRohn:Did I not give you evidence from the words of Allah about the fact that the Furqan refer to all scriptures. Of course, you don't believe in Allah one bit. You believe in Ibn Kathir and Shabir Ali more that Allah and your prophet. Allah accused you Muslims for writing the fake scripture. I asked you, was the Qur'an written by Muslim hands? Did they claim the words are from Allah? Sorry, Allah refers to you Muslims corrupting the Qur'an. JimRohn:Allah has 140,000 thousand prophets with a library of at least 40,000 but Allah could only protect one book (the Qur'an) put of these numbers. Indeed, Allah is the almighty librarian! JimRohn:You assume repeating exactly what you want to hear will suddenly convert it into the truth! LOL! What exactly did Allah say? Oh, Allah doesn't mean that, he means the Scripture that remains to be corrupted. See how the lying pen of you and your scholars have made the Qur'an and Allah a lie! JimRohn:Again, I say, we should debate on the preservation of the Qur'an and let's see if the Qur'an is preserved. Do you accept the challenge? |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by TenQ: 7:14am On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:Then for once, lets be able to hear what Allah is saying without your re-interpretations. Allah is not a toddler whose words are not clear. Reaffirming your standard islamic narrative doesn't make it true. It just confirms that you are manufacturing excuses for your wicked slave master: it called trauma bonding! JimRohn:Only Muslims claim that their hand written scripture is from Allah! Is the Qur'an not the speech of Allah? Is the Bible the Speech of Allah? JimRohn:So, Logically if I confirm a fake currency, I am only confirming the part of it that is correct. Islamic logic 101! LOL JimRohn:The scriptures were corrupted BEFORE Allah revealed the Qur'an BUT Allah was IGNORANT of it till you Modern Muslim scholars discovered it. It speaks well of Allah's knowledge. JimRohn:Really, then let's confirm this error of the perfect preservation of the Qur'an of you can stand the truth! JimRohn:The book of Mark is anonymous nut is was written by a man called Mark The book of Matthew is anonymous nut is was written by a man called Mathew The book of Luke anonymous but is was written by a man called Luke But Allah affirms these books!? Who wrote the Qur'an? Was it Mohammed, Abubakar, Uthman or the Government of Egypt who adopted the Hafs Qur'an? Don't tell me about Islamic traditions. JimRohn:At least from the corrupted books of the Jews and the Christians, Mohammed's name should appear. Please can you show me? JimRohn:I could almost cry. More than 90% of your Hadiths are Daif and Maudu yet Islam is not a religion of Lies? When Allah can't even speak good clear language again , whose fault |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 9:36am On Jun 11, 2025 |
TenQ:In the Name of Allah, the Most Just, the Most High. TenQ, You were asked a focused, theological question: If Jesus is fully God, how can he be ignorant of the Hour, tempted by Satan, feel hunger, and grow in wisdom? These are not trivial attributes — they are contradictions to the very definition of divinity. Rather than provide a direct answer, you unleashed a barrage of chaotic accusations and emotional rants — a clear sign of doctrinal insecurity. Since you wish to open multiple fronts, I will respond in kind — point by point, without dodging, unlike your reply. 1. Jesus: God or Man — You Can’t Have It Both Ways You claim “Jesus was fully human too,” as if that magically resolves the contradiction. That is exactly the problem: God is not “fully man” by definition. God does not: Hunger or thirst Grow in wisdom (Luke 2:52) Get tempted by Satan (Matt. 4:1) Not know the Hour (Mark 13:32) You cannot claim divine perfection while affirming human weakness — that’s logical schizophrenia. James 1:13 says “God cannot be tempted,” yet you admit Jesus was tempted. Either Scripture is lying, or your doctrine is false. Choose. Islam spares you from this confusion: God is One, eternal, and absolutely unlike His creation. Jesus (peace be upon him) was a noble prophet — not a god in flesh. 2. The Prophet and the Torment of the Grave You mock Prophet Muhammad ﷺ for seeking refuge from the torment of the grave. That shows your ignorance of Islamic theology. Our Prophet ﷺ taught us to fear Allah even while having hope in Him — because he is the most God-conscious. His fear wasn't personal doubt — it was teaching by example. He wasn’t arrogant like you, bragging about not fearing death. That’s not bravery; that’s foolishness. The Prophet ﷺ, despite being the best of creation, was humble and fearful of God — a mark of true righteousness. You think being unafraid of death makes you greater than the Prophet? That level of delusion is exactly why you follow a theology of confusion. 3. "Makr" and the Strawman Fallacy You clearly don’t know Arabic. The word makr means strategic planning, and yes — it can be used negatively or positively depending on context. In the Qur'an, Allah says: “They plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners (makireen).” (Surah Al-Anfal 8:30) It means that while disbelievers plot against truth, Allah outwits their schemes. That is divine justice — not deceit. The Arabic root doesn't always imply malice; that’s just your missionary talking point, which fails under linguistic scrutiny. Your Bible uses worse terms: In 2 Thessalonians 2:11, it says God sends a delusion so people will believe lies. Shall we talk about that? 4. The Qur’an’s Preservation vs Biblical Corruption You say, “Only Muslims wrote the Qur'an with their hands and said it’s from Allah.” You clearly have no idea how the Qur’an was revealed or preserved. The Qur’an was revealed orally, memorized by thousands of companions word-for-word, and transmitted through mass tawatur, a level of transmission unmatched in human history. The early written mushafs only served as a confirmation of the oral tradition — not a replacement. Unlike your Bible, which has: Unknown authors (e.g. Hebrews) Contradictory manuscripts (Codex Sinaiticus vs Vaticanus) Dozens of versions (KJV, NIV, ESV, etc.) Additions and removals (cf. 1 John 5:7, the Trinity verse, a known interpolation) As for Jeremiah 8:8 — it proves your own scriptures admit corruption. You confirmed it. You asked: “Was the Torah corrupted at the time of Muhammad?” Answer: Yes. That’s why Allah sent the Qur’an as the final, preserved revelation. 5. Challenge Accepted — Let’s Debate Qur’an Preservation You threw down a challenge on the preservation of the Qur’an? Good. Create a clear topic. Bring your best arguments. I will walk you through manuscript history, oral transmission, qira’at, and Uthman’s recension — and I will show you why your own Bible has been changed, corrupted, and edited over centuries. Let’s see if you can bring evidence or just angry noise. Final Note You’ve jumped from topic to topic, thrown out wild accusations, and failed to answer the original question: > If Jesus is God, how can he not know, hunger, grow, and be tempted? Until you can answer that, your whole religion is built on confusion. Islam, on the other hand, offers clarity, consistency, and perfect monotheism. So stop dodging and create your topic on Qur’anic preservation — if you’re ready to be exposed again. “Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.” — Surah Al-Ikhlas (112) Let’s debate properly. Truth stands clear from error. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 9:53am On Jun 11, 2025 |
TenQ:In the Name of Allah — the One, Eternal, and Unborn. TenQ, You were given a serious theological question that exposed the logical contradiction of your Trinitarian doctrine: > How can Jesus be “fully God” and yet suffer from hunger, fatigue, ignorance, and temptation? Rather than respond intelligently, you evaded the core issue and started babbling about Hebrew names, irrelevant side issues, and childish mockery. Since you insist on deflecting and disrespect, you’ll now be dealt with in your own tone — but with facts, not foam. 🔥 1. Trinitarian Confusion: You Still Haven’t Answered Let’s remind you of what you're dodging: Jesus was tempted by Satan (Matt 4:1), yet your own Bible says “God cannot be tempted” (James 1:13). Contradiction. Jesus didn’t know the Hour (Mark 13:32), yet God is all-knowing. Contradiction. Jesus grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52), yet God is eternally perfect and doesn’t “grow.” Contradiction. These aren't “interpretations.” These are your own scriptures exposing your man-made theology. Your religion invented a three-headed god, then broke your neck trying to explain how a limited, tempted, ignorant man can be God. Don’t run — answer the question. 📚 2. The Qur’an vs the "Fake Scriptures" You Follow You mock the Qur’an and demand to “test” it. Good. Let’s test your Bible first: Your Bible can’t even agree on Jesus’ genealogy (compare Matthew 1 vs Luke 3). It teaches God “regrets” (Genesis 6:6), gets “tired” (Exodus 31:17), and even wrestled with a man and lost (Genesis 32:24–30). That’s not scripture — that’s blasphemy. You asked: > “Was the Qur’an written by Muslims and claimed to be from Allah?” Yes — it was revealed by Allah to His Messenger ﷺ, memorized by thousands, written by trusted scribes, and passed through mass oral and written transmission with no contradiction, no version war, and no textual chaos like your Bible. You, on the other hand, follow a book that was: Compiled centuries after Jesus by anonymous authors Edited and manipulated by Church councils Missing entire books considered “canon” by others (compare Catholic vs Protestant Bibles) Proven to have interpolations (e.g., 1 John 5:7 — the “Trinity verse” — is a fabrication) So you have no leg to stand on. You attack the Qur’an only because you have no scripture left that can withstand scrutiny. 🕌 3. Your Desperation: Name Games and Emotional Meltdowns You think asking whether it’s Ibrāhīm or Ibrāhām is some kind of knockout punch? That’s pure ignorance. Names change in pronunciation from Hebrew to Arabic all the time — like Moses → Musa, John → Yahya, Jesus → Isa. This is standard linguistic shift, not corruption. You even asked, “Who is Israel?” The Qur’an identifies Israel as Ya’qub (Jacob) — just as the Torah does. Again, nothing you asked is a contradiction — it’s just a display of your poor research and weak Arabic. 📖 4. “Allah is an Almighty Librarian” Yes — Allah protected one final book, because it abrogated all previous scriptures that were corrupted by liars like your church scribes, as your own Bible admits in Jeremiah 8:8. You laugh because that’s all you have left. But we Muslims still have a Book memorized by millions word-for-word — even children — in every corner of the world. Meanwhile, you’re quoting a book that: Has no original manuscripts Went through centuries of anonymous editing Contains doctrinal contradictions And was weaponized by colonial powers The fact that you mock preservation only proves you’re bitter you don’t have it. 💥 5. You Keep Screaming: “Debate Qur’an Preservation!” Yes. We accept your challenge. But stop barking. Create a clean topic: 🟩 "Is the Qur’an preserved or corrupted?" Then bring your evidence — not sarcasm, not Wikipedia rants, not name games. I will bring: The historical chains of transmission The multiple qirā’āt and their preservation The Uthmanic codex and early manuscripts The miracle of mass memorization from day one till today You will bring emotional outbursts and irrelevant noise. But we welcome the exposure. ✅ Final Word Until you can answer how “God” can be tempted, hungry, and ignorant — your house of theology remains burning. Islam gives you a God who is Eternal, All-Knowing, Unchanging, and Absolutely One. No need for fusions, fabrications, or failed logic. We challenge you — create your topic. We’ll bury your claims one by one, using both reason and revelation. Come. The Lion of Tawhid is waiting. BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse advanceDNA 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 10:14am On Jun 11, 2025 |
TenQ:To the confused Christian attempting theology with mockery, You’ve once again shown us that mockery is your only defense when your Trinitarian doctrine is exposed as logically bankrupt. You were given a clear, rational question: > How can Jesus — who was tempted, ignorant, tired, and hungry — be “fully God,” when your own Bible says “God cannot be tempted” (James 1:13)? And instead of answering with anything remotely intelligent, you spiraled into incoherent rambling about trauma bonding, fake currency, da'if hadith, and who wrote what. If your goal was to dodge the question while embarrassing yourself, congratulations — mission accomplished. Let me now respond to your blunders point-by-point, with the clarity your theology lacks. 🔥 1. Your God Was Tempted by Satan – That’s Blasphemy You laugh and mock, but you still haven’t answered how: The “Most High” became a baby who soiled himself The “All-Knowing” didn’t know the Hour (Mark 13:32) The “Self-Sufficient” cried in weakness And the “Unchangeable God” grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52) This is not divine mystery — it’s theological madness. You’re worshiping a man who died on a cross, then calling him the “Immortal God.” The contradiction is so blatant even children recognize it — which is why your churches are emptying, while Islam continues to grow. 📖 2. “Anonymous Gospels” — And You Still Call This Revelation? You proudly declare: > “The Gospel of Mark is anonymous but was written by Mark…” How can you be this casual with lies? Every Gospel in your New Testament is anonymous. None of the writers claimed divine inspiration. The titles “according to Matthew” or “according to Luke” were added decades later by men with no chain of narration, no isnād, no mass transmission. If someone gave you an anonymous pamphlet today and said “God wrote this,” you’d laugh. But you base your salvation on four anonymous books written by non-eyewitnesses decades after Jesus — and call it “divine revelation.” This isn’t faith. It’s blind historical naivety. 🕋 3. Yes, The Qur’an Is the Speech of Allah — Preserved & Protected You scream: > “Only Muslims claim their hand-written scripture is from God!” Correct — and unlike you, we actually have: An unbroken chain of transmission Thousands of manuscripts from the earliest centuries Millions who memorized it cover-to-cover across 14 centuries And zero contradictions in theology, unlike your book of confusion. The Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad ﷺ word-for-word, and preserved by mass memorization and documentation — not by anonymous men centuries later in Greek. You mock Hafs — but can you even explain the qirā’āt system, or are you just parroting YouTube missionaries? Your biblical manuscripts disagree in thousands of places — not because of qirā’āt, but because of human tampering. That’s why your Bibles are still being edited in 2025. 🧠 4. “Allah Didn’t Know the Scriptures Were Corrupted”? This is your most embarrassing claim yet. Your Bible says: > “How can you say ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” — Jeremiah 8:8 Even your scripture admits the Torah was corrupted. And you think God didn’t know? No, what you’re failing to understand is: The Qur’an speaks of the original Torah and Gospel — not your church-edited versions. That’s why Allah says: > “They distort the words from their [proper] usages...” — Qur’an 4:46 “Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and say, ‘This is from Allah’...” — Qur’an 2:79 So don’t blame Allah. Blame the forgers of your religion — the ones who turned a prophet of God (Jesus) into a man-god, and a book of monotheism into polytheistic confusion. 🧾 5. “Where Is Muhammad in the Bible?” Where’s your brain? The Bible was altered, but despite that, even your current scriptures contain: Prophecies of the coming of a prophet like Moses (Deut 18:18) A “Comforter” who will come after Jesus (John 14:16) — whose description perfectly fits Muhammad ﷺ, not the Holy Spirit. Besides, you’re now demanding Muhammad’s name appear in a corrupted book, when you can’t even prove Jesus ever claimed to be God. Where in the Bible does Jesus say “I am God, worship me” in those words? Nowhere. Yet you deify him. ☠️ 6. “Most Hadith Are Da’if or Maudu” – And That’s a Strength Unlike your religion — where you blindly accept anonymous books as gospel — Islam has a rigorous science of hadith: We classify narrations: ṣaḥīḥ, ḥasan, da’īf, mawdū‘ We evaluate the character, memory, and reliability of each transmitter We don’t hide our weak reports — we expose them That’s called academic integrity. Your religion has no system for filtering truth from forgery — that’s why your Gospel includes forged verses like 1 John 5:7 (the Trinity verse), which was added in the Middle Ages and removed in modern versions. ✅ Final Word You’ve mocked Allah, mocked the Prophet ﷺ, mocked the Qur’an — yet you still haven’t answered a single contradiction in your own belief: > How can God be ignorant, tempted, and killed? Until you answer that, don’t bring your house of lies to the doorstep of Islam. You want debate? Then open the thread: “Is the Qur’an preserved? Who corrupted the Bible?” Stop dodging. We will expose every error you worship. And you will witness — once again — that the Qur’an is truth preserved, and your religion is nothing more than myth repackaged. 🟩 Tawhid will prevail. 🔥 Falsehood will burn. 📖 And the Qur’an will stand as it always has — clear, preserved, unmatched. BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21 NairaLTQ MaxInDHouse advanceDNA 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by advanceDNA: 10:42am On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:We have been through this baba....I stopped responding because u are just saying same thing over and again .... 1)what u count has contradiction is not....it has been explained over and again as God's plan of reconciliation and justice....how God choose to execute justice is his business....but it's impossible for you to accept this explanation because you already have your Islamic framework which explains your own version of God that can't do things as explained in Christian beliefs.. So...it's clear we can't move agree because of the differences in beliefs which is was my point from the start..........but I don't get why you want to desperately make another person's belief invalid... The Christian and Islamic faith is so apart there's is no reason for these comparisons or superiority contest you Muslims try to make 2) even if christians don't believe Jesus was and extension of God on the earth for the purpose of reconciliation and justice.... You Muslims will still desperately invalidate the christian faith for other differences like washing your bodies before prayer, hitting your head on the ground, wearing hijab, marrying many wives and so on.... And I said so because u antagonize the faith of the Jews(Judaism) that also believe Jesus is just a messenger like you muslims So at the end of the day...the pr0blem isnt what christians believe, but how your Quran and religion was designed....it is designed to be antagonistic, like a political movement that wants domination and to e!minate others .....it's how Mohammed started...It's how he took mecca, k!led and ch@sed the natives who don't believe or want in his religion... So sir...I really don't think there a point for this back and forth Kapish!! 1 Like |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 3:28pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
advanceDNA:Thank you for your message. I will respond respectfully, directly, and without resorting to rhetoric or personal assumptions, so that we can focus on ideas — not emotions. 1. The Issue Is Not Mere "Difference" — It’s Contradiction You claim the contradictions I raise are not contradictions, but rather a part of “God’s plan of reconciliation.” However, simply labeling theological problems as “God’s mysterious plan” does not resolve logical contradictions. If you affirm Jesus is fully God, yet say he: Does not know the Hour (Mark 13:32), Is tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:1), Grows in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52), Dies (by crucifixion), then this directly contradicts what your own scripture says about God: > “God cannot be tempted by evil” (James 1:13) “He neither slumbers nor sleeps” (Psalm 121:4) “I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6) These are not “differences of belief.” They are direct logical and theological contradictions. A being cannot be both mortal and immortal, omniscient and ignorant, all-powerful and helpless — simultaneously. Your response simply confirms that these tensions are beyond explanation and are accepted without resolution. Islam does not suffer from this confusion. That is the contrast we are pointing out — not out of “desperation,” but out of sincere theological clarity. 2. Critiquing a Belief System Is Not “Desperation” — It’s Disagreement You suggest that Muslims “desperately invalidate Christianity” no matter what Christians believe. That is an unfair and emotionally charged accusation. Islam does not “invalidate” out of emotion. It disagrees theologically — based on principle. Just as Christians openly reject the Qur’an, deny the finality of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, and preach that salvation is only through the cross, Muslims reject Trinitarian theology and the deification of Jesus. This is not hatred. This is doctrinal clarity. If disagreement equals hostility, then by that logic, Christianity has been “antagonizing” every religion on Earth for 2000 years — including Judaism, Islam, and paganism. That’s not a fair way to frame interfaith discussions. 3. Your Accusations Against Islam and the Prophet ﷺ Are False and Misleading You accuse Islam of being “designed to dominate,” and repeat hostile myths about Prophet Muhammad ﷺ “chasing and killing” people in Mecca. This is historically false. For 13 years in Mecca, the Prophet ﷺ and his followers were persecuted, tortured, and expelled for merely preaching monotheism. The return to Mecca occurred without bloodshed. It was a peaceful re-entry, with general amnesty offered to former enemies — a fact acknowledged by even neutral historians. Islam spread not merely by force — but by its message, justice, and consistency. The Quran itself says: > “There is no compulsion in religion.” (Qur’an 2:256) As for religious law in Islam (like ablution, modesty, or polygamy), these are not reasons to “invalidate” others. They are part of a comprehensive way of life, not a tool of antagonism. You’re free to disagree with Islamic law — but falsely portraying it as inherently aggressive or political distorts both the theology and history. 4. Islamic Critique Is Consistent, Not Arbitrary You mentioned that Muslims critique both Christianity and Judaism. That’s true — and it reflects Islam’s coherent theological standard: We affirm Tawhid (the Oneness of God), as taught by all Prophets. We respect previous revelations, but believe they were altered or misinterpreted. We believe the final revelation came with Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, just as Christians believe the “new covenant” replaced Mosaic law. So no — Islam is not “antagonistic” by nature. It is simply confident in its truth, just as every religion must be. 5. Conclusion: Truth Deserves Engagement, Not Deflection If your final position is: “We’ll never agree, so why discuss?” — then you are free to disengage. But know that interfaith discussion is not about forcing agreement — it’s about exploring truth, exposing contradictions, and respectfully inviting others to clarity. Islam will continue to challenge theological contradictions, not because it is “desperate,” but because it is confident in the unity, perfection, and majesty of God. If the God you worship suffers, hungers, is tempted, and dies — while the God we worship is eternal, indivisible, and above all weakness — then comparison is not arrogance, it is necessity. That is the very reason all Prophets were sent — to clarify the true nature of God. And Allah knows best. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by advanceDNA: 3:31pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:Why is it a necessity?? The Indians worship cows as their God...I don't see u doing this for indians  |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 4:00pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
advanceDNA:Your question is appreciated. Let me explain why the comparison between the Christian and Islamic conceptions of God is necessary, whereas the comparison with Hindu polytheistic traditions is not the focus of this specific discourse. 1. Why is it a necessity to compare? It is a necessity because Christianity and Islam both make exclusive theological claims about the One True God — and both assert that their scriptures, doctrines, and revelations represent ultimate truth. Therefore, when two monotheistic religions offer conflicting descriptions of God, comparison becomes unavoidable in determining which understanding is coherent, consistent, and truly worthy of worship. Christianity claims God became man, suffered, and died. Islam asserts that God is eternally self-sufficient, unchanging, and beyond human limitations. Since these positions cannot both be simultaneously true, a comparison is essential for anyone sincerely seeking the truth about God’s nature. This is not arrogance — it is the intellectual responsibility of people of faith who claim to follow divine revelation. 2. Why not compare with Hinduism or others? The reason I am not engaging Hindu beliefs in this context is not because they are exempt — but because this is a discussion specifically between a Christian and a Muslim, both of whom affirm the idea of One Creator and claim continuity with the Abrahamic tradition. Moreover, Hindus generally do not claim universal exclusivity for their conception of the divine in the way that Christians and Muslims do. Christianity preaches the exclusivity of salvation through Christ, and Islam proclaims the finality of revelation through the Qur’an. These mutually exclusive claims naturally invite comparison. In contrast, Hindu theology is philosophically pluralistic, often not concerned with global exclusivity, and its followers generally do not demand universal acceptance of their particular forms of worship as a condition of salvation. Thus, the reason for this comparison is not favoritism, nor omission — it is relevance to the current theological exchange. 3. Summary So yes — I compare the Islamic and Christian conceptions of God because both assert exclusive, universal truth. If you claim your God is worthy of worship and mine is not — or vice versa — then comparison is not optional. It becomes necessary for honest theological inquiry. Respectful comparison is not antagonism. It is the very method by which truth is distinguished from falsehood. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 4:17pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your erudite response and for giving me a good laugh!🤣😂😅 You don't see logical contradiction between outcomes being dependent on man's actions and simultaneously being independent of man's actions, but you see contradiction in God’s spirit temporarily occupying a human body!😅 Actually all the things I listed are harder to accept than God temporarily occupying a human body: God decides to have the full human experience so his eternal spirit enters a human body with all it's weaknesses. Everything that happens with the body only happens with the body and does not affect his spirit. Where exactly is the contradiction? On the other hand an unchanging God that was all alone suddenly starts creating without external stimuli or internal change. Can't you see that's impossible. Can't you see you're making the atheists' argument for them? |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by advanceDNA: 4:33pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:I have said this to you before....u cannot tell God what he can or cannot do... You are just trying to limit discredit the Christian faith based on your own Islamic framework.. JimRohn:why do u need to point out this difference....a group believes something different from your religion..why does this bother you.?? ...please explain why you need to invalidate another person's faith in comparison to yours.....because u just made a comparison here. JimRohn:See...there is nothing emotional....if u look at your Quran..u will see that it is designed with the premise of the bible and Torah....hence it mentions that Allah has no child and them it also emphasize that the text were carefully written by an illetrate to..... Two funny claims os targeted at creating distinction and claiming superiority and preservation.... And this is why u Muslims have no gospel other than holding on to this two point because it is what makes your Quran not look like a copy of the bible and Torah that it is.... JimRohn:U are in den!al......ur prophet was never among the ruling class of mecca right?? Some how ...he brought his religion and they ddnt accept him...........but no he ddnt take his religion else where since it's not by force... ..he claimed he was attacked, the took the sword and eliminated thousands of them and now conveniently made Islam the constitution of mecca.... Baba...how did Islam go from ordinary preaching of one God to chasing unbeliever from their own country and making the city an Islamic state?? Go read your Quran and Hadith....before he took mecca....he first signed a treaty with those who ruled mecca called .. Treaty of Hudaybiyyah in 628 CE, ...this was when he saw he couldn't defeat them.. ..but Mohammed never cared about the treaty because he already had it in mind to apply the Taqiyya law which all was you muslim maintaining deceptive secrecy against an infidel as long as you want advance the cause Islam..... He, through his followers broke the treaty and attacked mecca... That is how Islam has spread ever since: sword in hand.... JimRohn:if there is no compulsion why do y'all get to a place and start imposing shariah law on the people...?? U say one thing...you do another.....(Taqiyya law in play) In kano and many northern state ...democratic law exist....you Muslims came with shariah that it's for Muslims only.. now u harass everyone with your law...including those that don't know anything about your shariah law..they just get arrested for breaking religious law they have no knowledge of....this is how Islam has spread...by force JimRohn:u Muslims use them all the time to claim they are the only way God should be worshiped....u cite them as differences of superiority....u can deny all u want....but that doesn't change the fact that it's true.. JimRohn:it doesn't reflect anything......your religion needs to discredit the two religion it copied to give itself more validation....nothing more Tell me why u also find fault with Judaism who shares same view with you that Jesus isn't the son of God or sacrifice for reconciliation..?? This is a rhetoric please.....the answer is already stated... ...Islam was designed with the premise of christians faith and Judaism....but needs to discredit both to not look like a copy and claim authenticity 5. Conclusion: Truth Deserves Engagement, Not Deflection If your final position is: “We’ll never agree, so why discuss?” —[/quote]Your discussion is not based on anything logical... But a mere contest of superiority which is what you are doing with you funny comparisons.. ..like I said...islam has no central gospel that fuels your conviction ....so....the authenticity of your religion is all rest on discrediting Judaism and Christian faith with the difference that exist between the faiths See... there is nothing logical about your religion or any religion... U claim ...an illetrate wrote hundreds of pages of Quran....this is not logical but u always ignore ore this.......u will need faith to accept this as true.... .but here u are trying to pretend your religion is all about logic and you are trying to use logic to discredit another person's faith |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 5:23pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you for your response. I appreciate your continued engagement and your willingness to explore these deep theological matters seriously, even if you express amusement. Let me respond carefully to the core of your points with logic, clarity, and mutual respect. 1. You Misstated My Position on Divine Foreknowledge and Human Free Will You wrote: > “You don't see logical contradiction between outcomes being dependent on man's actions and simultaneously being independent of man's actions…” This misrepresents my position. I never said outcomes are “independent” of human actions. Rather, I clarified that God's knowledge of future human choices does not cause those choices. God knows them eternally, but the agency remains with the human being. There is a logical distinction between foreknowledge and predetermination. This is a known philosophical issue that’s debated across religious traditions, but it does not require affirming a contradiction. One can coherently affirm both divine omniscience and human moral responsibility without affirming opposites at the same time in the same respect. 2. The Core Problem with the Incarnation Remains: Contradictory Attributes You stated: > “God decides to have the full human experience so his eternal spirit enters a human body with all its weaknesses… Everything that happens with the body only happens with the body and does not affect his spirit.” Respectfully, this attempted resolution introduces the very contradiction I am highlighting. Let’s analyze: If only the body experienced ignorance, hunger, fatigue, and death—while the divine spirit remained unaffected—then the one undergoing those human experiences is not fully God and fully man in one person. But Christian doctrine insists that Jesus as a person is simultaneously fully God and fully man—not a human body merely occupied by a divine spirit in parallel. This introduces a compositional dualism that fragments the personhood of Jesus. Either: Jesus died—meaning the divine died (contradicting divine immortality), or Jesus didn’t die—meaning only the human nature died (dividing the person and nullifying the Incarnation). Thus, the contradiction arises in the assertion of simultaneous opposites in a single person: Mortal and immortal Temporal and eternal Dependent and independent Limited in knowledge and omniscient These are not mere mysteries. They are mutually exclusive definitions. To affirm both is to affirm A and not-A in the same respect and at the same time, which is the very definition of a logical contradiction. 3. On God Creating Without Change You asked: > “An unchanging God that was all alone suddenly starts creating without external stimuli or internal change. Can't you see that's impossible?” This challenge arises from a temporal framework that assumes God’s will must be triggered by change or stimulus. In Islamic theology, God’s will is eternal and unchanging. The effects of His will—such as creation—manifest in time, but His will itself is not newly formed or changed. We distinguish between: God’s eternal attribute of will, and The temporal manifestation of that will in creation This is no more contradictory than an author who has had a story in mind eternally, yet chooses to publish it at a particular time. The expression in time does not imply a change in the author’s intention. Furthermore, you stated: > “He was all alone.” But this is an assertion not grounded in revelation. Islam affirms that God is eternally perfect and self-sufficient. His act of creation is not a response to loneliness or need, but a manifestation of His wisdom and will. There is no contradiction here, only an assertion of divine transcendence beyond human categories of change and need. 4. Final Clarification You concluded: > “God temporarily occupying a body is easier to accept.” What’s “easier to accept” emotionally or imaginatively is not the issue. The standard is not subjective plausibility, but logical coherence. Islam affirms that God is exalted beyond taking on human attributes. To claim otherwise is to collapse the distinction between Creator and creation, which leads to theological incoherence. Conclusion: Faith Should Not Contradict Reason Islam recognizes mystery—yes—but never embraces logical absurdity. There is a difference between what is beyond our comprehension and what is incoherent by definition. Thus, the difference remains clear: Paradox involves complexity or mystery. Contradiction affirms opposites simultaneously in the same respect. The doctrine of Incarnation falls into the latter, not the former. I welcome further discussion if we remain committed to thoughtful, respectful dialogue. > “Do they not reflect within themselves? Allah created the heavens and the earth and everything between them for a purpose and an appointed term.” (Qur’an 30:  1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by advanceDNA: 5:40pm On Jun 11, 2025*. Modified: 3:33am On Jun 12, 2025 |
JimRohn:There is no necessity order than the one u are putting on yourself aimed to claiming dominance and superiority ......the Christian faith and Judaism are the only major faiths in the world today ....u pple see other pple as infidels to dominate and eliminate....and thats why u do all this to discredit both because they are the only real threat to consider Allah of Quran and the father the christians acknowledges are not the same ...but because u mvslim copied text similar to the christians text ..one must be discredited to make the other true This is what u will never admit...but the evidence is clear ...ur Quran is not an isolated book...it draws many reference and even points to the bible, yet you desperately seek to discredit the two other faith becos if you don't...u will be seen as the copy .... 1 Like |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 6:21pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
advanceDNA:Thank you for your detailed reply. I will respond in good faith and address the key issues you’ve raised with clarity, logic, and mutual respect. 1. The Core of the Disagreement: Contradiction vs. Difference Let me begin with what seems to be a recurring misunderstanding. You suggest: > “You are just trying to limit God based on your Islamic framework.” Respectfully, this is not about limiting God — it’s about affirming God’s perfection. God can do all things that are consistent with His nature — not logical absurdities or contradictions. For example, can God cease to be God? Can He lie, die, or forget? No, because that would contradict His essence. Likewise, when I critique the Incarnation, it’s not because I’m “limiting God,” but because being simultaneously omniscient and ignorant, immortal and mortal, is a contradiction. Logical contradictions are not displays of divine power — they are violations of reason. 2. Why Compare? Because Truth Deserves Critical Inquiry You asked: > “Why do you need to invalidate another person’s faith? Why does this bother you?” This is not about being “bothered.” It is about honest theological disagreement. Christianity actively critiques Islam — you deny the prophethood of Muhammad ﷺ, reject the Qur’an, and preach exclusive salvation through the cross. That’s your doctrinal right. Similarly, Islam offers a counter-narrative to Christian claims — one that emphasizes strict monotheism, prophetic succession, and preserved revelation. This is not hostility. This is discourse. If religious claims are mutually exclusive — which they are — then rational comparison and critique are inevitable. Engaging in discussion is not an act of desperation; it’s a sign of conviction. 3. Your Historical Claims Are Misguided and Inaccurate You asserted: > “Muhammad chased people out, broke treaties, used deception (taqiyya), and spread Islam by the sword…” Let’s clarify: Taqiyya is not a mainstream political doctrine in Islam. It refers to concealing faith under extreme persecution, and is not a license for deception or violating treaties. This concept is marginal and limited, not a universal Islamic principle. The Treaty of Hudaybiyyah was broken not by the Prophet ﷺ, but by the Meccan allies. The Prophet’s response was lawful and measured — and the eventual re-entry into Mecca was peaceful, with a general amnesty declared. No mass killings occurred. This is confirmed even in non-Muslim academic sources. Regarding expansion: Islam’s primary spread came through trade, preaching, and just governance. The largest Muslim populations today — Indonesia, Nigeria, Malaysia — were never conquered by Muslim armies. As for implementing Shariah in majority-Muslim regions like northern Nigeria: this occurs through local democratic mechanisms. If Muslims wish to live by religious law, that is their choice — just as Christians have Christian courts in some countries. Misapplication by corrupt leaders is not a refutation of Islamic theology. 4. Islam’s View of the Bible and Torah Is Nuanced You wrote: > “Islam copies the Bible and Torah and tries to discredit them to look original.” Islam affirms that previous revelations — Torah, Psalms, and Gospel — were originally from God, but have been corrupted over time (Qur’an 2:79). That is not plagiarism — it’s theological correction. The Qur’an reaffirms core prophetic messages — like monotheism and accountability — while rejecting later theological developments, such as: The deification of prophets The Trinity The idea that God can die This is not an act of hostility — it’s a restoration claim, much like Christianity makes about Judaism. Jesus challenged the Pharisees and reinterpreted the Old Testament — yet Christians don’t call that “copying” or “discrediting.” 5. “The Qur’an Was Written by an Illiterate Man” — A Misunderstanding You mocked: > “You believe an illiterate man wrote the Qur’an. That’s not logical.” Actually, this is one of the strongest evidences for its authenticity. The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ was known to be illiterate, yet the Qur’an he conveyed: Contains profound theology, legal systems, ethics, and prophecy Demonstrates linguistic excellence that even Arab poets and scholars could not replicate Anticipated scientific realities unknown at the time Muslims do not claim he “wrote” the Qur’an — they claim it was revealed by God, word-for-word, and preserved. The Prophet ﷺ was the recipient, not the author. You may not believe that, but it is internally consistent and logical within Islamic theology. 6. Faith and Reason Are Not Opposites You concluded: > “There is nothing logical about your religion. All religions are illogical.” If that’s your position, then it undermines all religious conviction — including your own. Yet, you still affirm the Incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and Trinity — all of which require some measure of faith. That’s understandable. Islam, however, emphasizes that faith and reason must align. While the unseen requires belief, it must not require the rejection of reason. The Qur’an repeatedly calls humanity to reflect, think, and reason — not to believe in spite of logic. 7. Final Thoughts Religious debate is not about “winning” — it’s about clarifying truth. The tone of your reply includes mockery, ridicule, and misrepresentations — but I will not respond in kind. I will simply invite you to reflect on the core issues: Does your theology affirm contradictory attributes of God? Does it preserve God’s perfection, or compromise it? Does it require suspending reason, or does it align with it? As Muslims, we believe that God is One, eternal, self-sufficient, unchanging, all-knowing, and absolutely unique. He does not become man, nor does He die. He sends guidance through prophets — culminating in the final message of the Qur’an. You are free to reject that, but you cannot deny that it is coherent, consistent, and rooted in rational monotheism. > “Say: This is my way. I invite to Allah with insight — I and those who follow me.” (Qur’an 12:108) I welcome further discussion — but let it be based on facts, reason, and respect, not assumptions or insults. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 7:34pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
advanceDNA:Thank you for your response. I’d like to respectfully address the points you’ve raised. 1. The Original Question Remains Unanswered My question was straightforward: > If Jesus is fully God, how do you reconcile divine perfection with the human limitations he clearly experienced (such as ignorance of the Hour, temptation, death, and growth in knowledge)? Instead of addressing this directly, your reply shifted to claims about “dominance,” “copying,” and “discrediting other faiths.” Respectfully, raising a theological contradiction is not an act of hostility. It’s a legitimate request for clarity in belief. If a belief claims to be from God, it should be open to reasonable inquiry — and should not depend on contradictions being ignored or dismissed. 2. Disagreement Is Not the Same as Dominance or Hatred You wrote: > “You people see others as infidels to dominate and eliminate.” That is a serious and unfounded accusation. Islam does not call for eliminating others based on belief. In fact, the Qur’an commands: > “There is no compulsion in religion.” (Qur’an 2:256) Throughout history, Muslims have coexisted with Jews, Christians, and others — often granting them protected status (Ahl al-Dhimma) in Muslim lands, something early Christian empires rarely offered to non-Christians. Critiquing theological positions — like the Incarnation or the Trinity — is not a form of dominance. It is the same type of critique that Christians apply to Islam when they deny the Qur’an or the prophethood of Muhammad ﷺ. The right to disagree is mutual, and dialogue should be based on truth-seeking — not accusations. 3. Referencing Does Not Equal Copying You said: > “Your Qur’an is not an isolated book... it draws many references and even points to the Bible.” That’s true — but this is not plagiarism. Islam teaches that previous prophets received genuine revelation from God (such as the Torah and Gospel), but these were later altered. The Qur’an came as a final revelation, affirming the original monotheistic message while correcting human distortions. The fact that the Qur’an refers to earlier scriptures is evidence of continuity, not copying. Christianity also refers to the Old Testament — does that mean it is merely a “copy” of Judaism? Of course not. Continuity with past prophets is a core feature of Abrahamic faiths, not a flaw. The difference is that Islam does not accept theological changes (e.g., deifying prophets) that contradict God's oneness and perfection. 4. Addressing the Core Theological Concern Let me bring the discussion back to the essential issue: God is all-knowing (omniscient), yet Jesus did not know the Hour (Mark 13:32). God is immortal, yet Jesus died. God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), yet Jesus was tempted. God is perfect, yet Jesus is described as growing in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52). These are not minor details — they strike at the heart of the claim that Jesus is fully God. If your belief system depends on holding two mutually exclusive attributes together, then that demands careful explanation. Simply saying, “God can do anything” does not resolve contradictions — because even God does not act against His own nature (e.g., becoming ignorant, mortal, or limited). 5. Final Thought: This Is Not About Superiority — It’s About Truth You suggested that Muslims try to discredit Christianity and Judaism just to appear original. That is not the case. Islam critiques theological errors — just as Christianity does. The goal is not superiority; it is clarity and truth. If God is truly One and eternal, then He cannot become man, suffer death, or possess limitations. That is the basis of our theological concern — not rivalry, not politics, not emotion. > “Say, ‘We believe in God, and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes... We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.’” (Qur’an 2:136) Let’s continue to discuss based on that principle: sincere inquiry into what is true — not assumptions about each other’s intentions. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 8:11pm On Jun 11, 2025*. Modified: 8:39pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your polite (though laughable) response. I assume you're a fairly intelligent guy and that I don't have to spell everything out for you. I took it for granted you'd infer that God's foreknowledge inescapably means predestination no matter how anybody tries to confuse you with wordplay. Example, Adam and Eve were destined to eat the apple BECAUSE God knows to the last detail the where, how, and when. AT SAME TIME Adam and Eve had perfect free will to eat or not eat the Apple! And you don't see any contradiction there. All you see is "mystery"!😅 About the second point, I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in you (I hope I haven't overestimated your intelligence). How can you make anything about God subject to time?? Can you define this "time" in relation to an unchanging God? Atheists will just toy with you. Don't you know what yoiu just admitted is that the universe is eternal? Your placing it inside "God's will" is just a smokescreen. On to the incarnation thing, the HUGE flaw in your reasoning about this is that you try to fit limitless God into man's microscopic logic and understanding. God can do just about anything. The least of what God can do is have his spirit occupy a human body. Even lowly demons can do that! I don't know how you can't see that God has the power to feel and do anything with that body while still remaining God! |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 9:11pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
QuinQ:Thank you for your reply. While I note your shift in tone and the insertion of ridicule, I will maintain a respectful and rational approach for the sake of meaningful dialogue. Let me respond to your points clearly and carefully: 1. On Foreknowledge and Predestination You argue that God’s foreknowledge must necessarily entail predestination, asserting that because God knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, they were destined to do so. This conflates knowledge with causation. Let’s clarify: Foreknowledge is the awareness of what will happen, not the cause of what happens. Knowing that a person will freely choose A over B does not make you the cause of their choice. For example, if I record a football match and know the final score in advance, that knowledge does not make me the cause of the result. The logical distinction between foreknowledge and compulsion is widely recognized in both philosophy and theology. Denying that distinction results in fatalism—rendering moral responsibility meaningless. If God forced Adam and Eve to sin, it undermines justice. Islam avoids this by affirming God’s perfect knowledge and human moral agency—without contradiction. You may call this "wordplay," but it is actually precise philosophical reasoning. Assertions do not replace argument. 2. On Time and God’s Will You object to my explanation of God’s unchanging will by suggesting I have subjected God to time, and that this implies the universe is eternal. That is incorrect. In Islamic theology, God is not subject to time—He is the Creator of time. His will is eternal, but the manifestation of that will can occur in time without implying change or temporality in God Himself. This distinction is not a “smokescreen”—it is a logical separation between God’s attributes and the created effects of His will. The universe is not eternal. It had a beginning, brought into existence by God’s timeless command. God's willing the universe does not mean He changed His mind or was once inactive. Rather, His eternal will is timelessly linked to what He brings into existence at specific points in time. This is a coherent view that preserves God’s transcendence. 3. On the Incarnation and Logical Coherence You write: > “God can do just about anything. The least of what God can do is have his spirit occupy a human body.” This is where clarity is essential. Islam affirms that God can do all things consistent with His nature. He cannot be ignorant, weak, or mortal because these are negations of divinity—not expressions of omnipotence. Saying “God can do anything” does not justify affirming logical contradictions. For instance, can God cease to be God? Can He become ignorant, limited, or die? If your answer is “yes,” then you reduce God to a mutable being, which contradicts divine perfection. Moreover, Christian doctrine insists Jesus is not merely a body possessed by God (as you seem to suggest), but one unified person who is simultaneously fully divine and fully human. That raises a contradiction, not a mystery: How can one person be both omniscient and ignorant, omnipotent and weak, immortal and dead? These are not mysteries like the Trinity’s relational dynamics. They are metaphysical contradictions—affirming opposites in the same respect. That’s not "man's microscopic logic"; it’s basic reason, which must apply if faith is to be intelligible. Even in Scripture, God says: > “Come, let us reason together.” (Isaiah 1:18) So appealing to reason is not a denial of God's majesty—it is a way to engage sincerely with revealed truth. 4. Final Reflection Ridicule may feel satisfying, but it is not a substitute for clarity or logic. I am committed to respectful engagement and am willing to continue dialogue if it is rooted in mutual respect and intellectual seriousness. As the Qur'an says: > “Say: Are those who know equal to those who do not know? Only they will remember who are people of understanding.” (Qur’an 39:9) I leave you with this question: If God is absolutely perfect, then how can He assume imperfection without ceasing to be perfect? That is the real contradiction at the heart of the Incarnation. 1 Like 2 Shares |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 9:57pm On Jun 11, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your polite but funny response. Sorry you detect a shift in tone. It's just that your replies are inadvertently very funny and I don't know how else to convey that. Example, whoever said God's foreknowledge caused anything? I never said so nor even implied it. God's foreknowledge MEANS things are predestined. Simple. There is nothing philosophy or anybody can add or subtract from that. In other words, either God knows everything OR man has free will. You can't have both. Yet we instinctively know we have both. Our brains just don't have the capacity to reconcile how. So also with Incarnation. We know God definitely took on human body for some 33 years, but our brains don't have the capacity to reconcile how exactly it worked. As for creation, God exists in the eternal now where time does not exist. To say his will started manifesting at a certain point in time is nonsensical wordplay. We no longer even mention the contradictions of existence of evil, pain, disease, natural disasters, etc, simultaneously as an all powerful, all loving, and all good God! In conclusion, you should really let these type of debates go. Nature hasn't given man the brainpower to be able to tackle them. Notice I never said any of the things are NOT true because they are contradictory? Infact I said we instinctively know they are true despite them being contradictory. Same with Incarnation, we may not comprehend the inside details of it all but we know God tha Son took on the nature of man and lived amongst us over 2000 years ago! Thanks for chatting with me |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 2:33am On Jun 12, 2025*. Modified: 4:55am On Jun 12, 2025 |
JimRohn:Oh I just noticed I didn't answer your question. Here: How do you know God is absolutely perfect? I thought we agreed you're incapable of comprehending God? So I leave you with questions too: 1) Can you please explain how an absolutely perfect can create an absolutely imperfect? 2) If you were the one who designed and launched something as unbelievably vast as the cosmos would you be interested that microscopic subjects in a spec of dust in it be constantly worshiping you and telling you how great you are and Allahu Akbar etc? 3) How can something that never changes be alive? And how can something that never changes make any moves at all?
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| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by JimRohn: 1:44pm On Jun 12, 2025 |
QuinQ:You’ve raised some interesting questions, and I appreciate the opportunity to engage with them respectfully and thoughtfully. 1) "How do you know God is absolutely perfect?" The claim that God is absolutely perfect is not a human invention—it is a necessary conclusion based on the very definition of God as the Ultimate Being. Perfection, in theological discourse, refers to the absence of deficiency. If God lacked anything—power, knowledge, justice, mercy, or independence—He would not be God in the first place. This is not a contradiction of God's incomprehensibility; rather, it affirms that while we cannot grasp God's essence fully, we can know certain truths about Him through revelation and rational reflection. Islam, like classical theism, affirms God’s perfection as essential to His divinity. Now, turning to your questions: 1) "Can an absolutely perfect God create an absolutely imperfect being?" Yes, and there is no contradiction here. God's perfection does not mean He can only create what is perfect in itself—it means He acts with wisdom and purpose. Creating limited, contingent beings is not a flaw, but a demonstration of His will, power, and mercy. Imperfection in creation does not imply imperfection in the Creator, any more than a potter is flawed because his clay pots are not made of gold. In Islamic theology, God's creation of the imperfect is part of the divine plan to manifest His attributes—such as mercy, justice, and forgiveness—within a moral universe. 2) "Why would a perfect God care about worship from insignificant creatures?" This question stems from projecting human psychology onto God. In Islam, God does not need worship—it adds nothing to Him and takes nothing away if withheld. Worship is for our benefit, not His. The Qur’an states: “If you disbelieve—indeed, Allah is free of need of you…” (Qur’an 39:7). Worship is how we align ourselves with the truth, purify the soul, and fulfill our purpose. A God who creates out of wisdom would naturally give creation a purpose—and worship is how human beings fulfill theirs, not because God is insecure, but because He is just and merciful. 3) "How can something that never changes be alive or act?" This question confuses ontological immutability with inactivity. When we say God never changes, we mean His essence and attributes are not subject to evolution, decay, or alteration. This does not negate His will, knowledge, or power to act. In Islamic theology, God acts in time without being changed by time. His will is eternal, and His actions manifest within creation according to His wisdom. Change implies moving from one state to another, which is a deficiency in created beings—but not applicable to the Creator, who is timeless and beyond the physical constraints of space-time. In conclusion, your questions are important, but they highlight a central issue: the tendency to define God by human limitations, rather than by revealed attributes and rational coherence. Islam affirms that God is absolutely perfect, eternally self-sufficient, and beyond change—not because we limit Him, but precisely because He is not limited like His creation. This is why we reject the idea that God would become a man, be tempted, suffer, or die—because such attributes are logically and theologically incompatible with absolute perfection. Let me know if you'd like me to expand further on any point. |
| Re: Help Make Sense Of A Number Of Things I Have Heard From Muslims by QuinQ: 2:43pm On Jun 12, 2025*. Modified: 3:44pm On Jun 12, 2025 |
JimRohn:Thanks for your erudite (though fanciful) response I'd try to get us out of fancy and theoretical God given attributes by totally ignorant man, and bring us to to an actually possible God that relates to actual reality. Now, we don't know the true nature of the universe but some of our smartest minds, including Elon Musk, have concluded it is very likely some sort of simulation. They point to things like why nothing in the universe can go faster than the speed of light - because that's the maximum speed of the processor. Now, assuming this is so, what we would perceive as God would be the people who designed and launched the simulation, specifically the person in charge of it all (the Father). This is now something practical, not God inside a book. In that scenario what do you think would be the qualities of God? Do they necessarily have to include being perfect and never changing, etc? And is it possible for us to comprehend there is a whole real world outside our simulated computer world, a whole real world of people going to work and living their lives. And why can't it be possible for "God" to enter the simulation, quite different from special charaters sent within the simulation (prophets). And of course before the simulation was launched time did not exist from our perspective, but of course time was quite in existence in the real world outside the computer |
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