₦airaland Forum

TenQ:
1. Because he knows the answer Mohammed did not yet know.
2. The set of questions never existed either I. Judaism or Christianity. Only in Islam did we see the question being asked and the answer given.

Again, my TWO Questions:
1. So, is Abdullah bin Salam a prophet of Allah or Mohammed?
It seems every prophet before Mohammed knew the answer except Mohammed until Jibril told him!
2. How come Mohammed was a prophet but he didn't know the answer till Abdullah bin Salam asked him?

That bin Salam understood the hypocritical behaviour of his people?

You also are far from aware that in
Talmud – Niddah 31a (Babylonian Talmud):
If the woman emits seed first, she will give birth to a male. If the man emits seed first, she will give birth to a female.

This version inverts the genders compared to the hadith.

But it still links order of climax/ejaculation to child’s sex.

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
It’s unfortunate that there seems to be a misunderstanding regarding the preservation of the Qur’an. Allow me to clarify the matter:

1. Preservation Does Not Mean Every Revelation Was Included

The presence of abrogation or references to lifted verses does not compromise the perfection of the Quran’s preservation. Rather, it affirms that the Qur’an was preserved exactly as Allah intended through divine selection of what should remain recited and recorded, and what was to be lifted. The Prophet pbuh personally oversaw this process, instructing where each verse belonged.

It’s important to distinguish between different forms of revelation:

Qur’an (recited revelation )– Recited as scripture.
Hadith Qudsi – Sacred but not part of the Qur’an.
Abrogated Verses – Once revealed, then lifted.

The Prophet pbuh received many revelations, but not all were meant for permanent inclusion in the Qur’an. As Imām al-Qarāfī noted in al-Furūq, preservation was never about including every revealed word, but preserving what Allah intended to endure.

1. This seems like an excuse invented centuries after Mohammed to explain away evidences that verses were omitted from the present Quran.
2. Can you give me any evidence where Mohammed or Jibril said a verse should be recited but such verse is not supposed to be the final Qur'an.
3. We're such verses included in the Qur'an of Allah in paradise or the Qur'an on earth is a summary?
4. Who is Imām al-Qarāfī and when was he born?

Sorry,
It seems a Muslim moderator is deleting my posts, so I have to break this up into small bits. Let's see if he will delete four posts at once

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
2. Abrogation Was Part of the Revelation Process. As Allah says:
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth one better than it or similar to it.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:106)

When companions like Zayd ibn Thābit or Aʾishah mention certain verses that were once recited, they are not implying anything was lost rather, they’re affirming that some verses were revealed and then divinely lifted.

No problem! If Qur'an 2:106 is correct,
1. What is the better or similar replacement for the verse on breastfeeding an adult man 5 times (it used to be 10 before the first abrogation in Mohammed's time)?
2. What is the similar or better replacement for the verse on stoning an adulterer in the Qur'an?
3. What is the better or similar replacement for verse lost in Surah Bara’ah?


It seems you do not know that it is beneath God to produce words that are not perfect. Otherwise, looking at
Qur'an 2:106
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth one better than it or similar to it.


1. Why would Allah reveal a verse then abrogate it to bring a SIMILAR verse and not the original?
Could this be an excuse when Mohammed forgets the verse he taught his followers a day before?
2. Why would Allah bring an imperfect verse only to repent and change his mind a few days after to bring a BETTER verse?
Could this be an excuse when Mohammed reviewed the verse he taught his followers a day before and found it silly enough to modify it?
3. Doesn't this negate the standard islamic narrative that the Qur'an is an attribute of Allah and thus eternal?
How can that which is eternal change with time?

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
3. The Prophet pbuh personally supervised the Compilation as he

* Called scribes to write specific verses,
* Arranged them in precise order,
* Instructed that certain revelations not be recorded as Qur’an due to abrogation.

Thus, what remained in the Qur’an was only what the Prophet pbuh affirmed and this is the essence of true preservation.

Furthermore, the compilation of the Qur’an under Caliph Uthman was done with the full consensus of the companions. None of them, including those who narrated abrogated or lifted verses, ever claimed the Qur’an was incomplete. Even scholars from the Ahl al-Bayt affirmed its authenticity.

Imam al-Baqir: No one can claim he possesses more of the Qur’an than what is in the muṣḥaf.

Imām Jaʿfar al-Ṣādiq: The Qur’an is one, revealed by One, and confirmed by the Prophet.

The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars, including Tusi, Tabrisi, al-Suyuti, and Fakhr al-Din al-Razi.

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

Explore2xmore:
That bin Salam understood the hypocritical behaviour of his people?

Since Abdullah bin Salam was also a Jew, nothing stops him from being the greatest of the hypocrites! He could in fact be the best of them in hypocrisy. Have you heard of deep-cover spys before?
They are indistinguishable from the people they are impersonating!
LOL!

Explore2xmore:
You also are far from aware that in
Talmud – Niddah 31a (Babylonian Talmud):
If the woman emits seed first, she will give birth to a male. If the man emits seed first, she will give birth to a female.

This version inverts the genders compared to the hadith.

But it still links order of climax/ejaculation to child’s sex.

1. The Talmud is NOT scripture. This is the writing of the scribes distorting the scriptures prophet Jeremiah complained of. But it is also a proof that Mohammed was copying many things from the Jews including ERRORS!
2. For now, my objective is not to argue the scientific blunder made either in the Talmud or the Qur'an. The Sex chromosomes in the Ovum and the Sperm determine the sex of any baby
Otherwise
Pregnancy from RAPE must be of only one Gender!
Is it UNTRUE that the man who rapes Always ejaculates FIRST?
So, if pregnancy results, what usually is the gender of the baby?

Like I said: the three questions asked are NOT my objective in this post


You have not responded to my two questions sir.
Again, my TWO Questions:
1. So, is Abdullah bin Salam a prophet of Allah or Mohammed?
It seems every prophet before Mohammed knew the answer except Mohammed until Jibril told him!

2. How come Mohammed was a prophet but he didn't know the answer till Abdullah bin Salam asked him?

honesttalk21:
Why bother with this guy. I have addressed his incorrect perception and misconceptions of evidence for. The Quran is well preserved as it was initially transmitted.

He is trying to water down the reality of his error

I don't believe the Quran is perfectly preserved right from the mouth of Muhammed. There was serious distortion and manipulation with the Quran development during the caliphate of Uthman.

He complied the Quran of his own wish and desire and burned the ones he didn't like.

The Sana manuscript is clear evidence of the discrepancy in Quranic compilation and tradition is early islamic era.

SIRTee15:
I don't believe the Quran is perfectly preserved right from the mouth of Muhammed. There was serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran development during the caliphate of Uthman.

He complied the Quran of his own wish and desire and burned the ones he didn't like.

The Sana manuscript is clear evidence of the discrepancy in Quranic compilation and tradition is early islamic era.

It will be most valuable and sincere if you can clearly state what constitute the serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran under the caliphate of Uthman.

A blanket statement without substance is of no value.

Explore2xmore:
It will be most valuable and sincere if you can clearly state what constitute the serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran under the caliphate of Uthman.

A blanket statement without substance is of no value.

One of the greatest reciters approved by Muhammed himself, Ibn Masud called the Quranic script compiled by Uthman a corrupt work and rightly rejected it.

When ibn Masud protested the burning of his own Quran he personally compiled, he was beaten, his ribs broken and thrown out of the mosque on the order of Uthman

Abdullah Ibn Masud said, “I recited from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs which I had perfected before Zaid Ibn Thabit had embraced Islam.” (The Codices of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, – Ibn Abi Dawud’s Kitab al-Masahif, p. 17)

“I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah?” ( Ibid., p. 15)

When Uthman's agents came to Kufa to burn all the variants, Abd Allah Ibn Masud hid his copy of Quran from them and told his followers to do the same. He justified his own version of the recitation by reminding people:

"I recited before Allah's Messenger more than seventy suras of the Qur'an. His Companions know that I have a better understanding of Allah's Book than they do; and if I were to know that someone had a better understanding than I have, I would have gone to him." It was said that nobody could find fault with Abd Allah's version
(Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 6022)

SIRTee15:
I don't believe the Quran is perfectly preserved right from the mouth of Muhammed. There was serious distortion and manipulation with the Quran development during the caliphate of Uthman.

He complied the Quran of his own wish and desire and burned the ones he didn't like.

The Sana manuscript is clear evidence of the discrepancy in Quranic compilation and tradition is early islamic era.

The Sanʿa manuscript is an essential piece for grasping how the early Qurʾān was transcribed and preserved. Its palimpsest nature shows a practical solution to the limited availability of parchment, rather than any theological disagreements. This common practice of erasing and rewriting over older texts doesn’t suggest that there were different versions of the scriptures; it simply highlights the logistical hurdles that early scribes faced.

Additionally, the differences observed in this manuscript, like variations in spelling, shouldn’t be confused with actual textual differences. Changes in spelling, word order, or missing diacritical marks were quite normal and didn’t change the meaning of the recitation. The later standardization through iʿjām and tashkil represents a move towards clarity, but it doesn’t mean there was any initial inconsistency in the message.

It’s also crucial to remember that the integrity of the Qurʾan has always been rooted in oral tradition. The dedicated memorization efforts by the sahabah and the Prophet Muhammad’s pbuh interactions with Jibrīl during Ramadan reinforce this oral tradition as fundamental.

Finally, even respected scholars like Michael Cook and Francois Deroche point out that while early manuscripts shed light on the preservation process, they don’t undermine the established consistency of the ʿUthmānic Qurʾān. Therefore, the Ṣanaa manuscript enriches our understanding rather than challenging core beliefs

SIRTeee15:
One of the greatest reciters approved by Muhammed himself, Ibn Masud called the Quranic script compiled by Uthman a corrupt work and rightly rejected it.

When ibn Masud protested the burning of his own Quran he personally compiled, he was beaten, his ribs broken and thrown out of the mosque on the order of Uthman

Abdullah Ibn Masud said, “I recited from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs which I had perfected before Zaid Ibn Thabit had embraced Islam.” (The Codices of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, – Ibn Abi Dawud’s Kitab al-Masahif, p. 17)

“I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah?” ( Ibid., p. 15)

When Uthman's agents came to Kufa to burn all the variants, Abd Allah Ibn Masud hid his copy of Quran from them and told his followers to do the same. He justified his own version of the recitation by reminding people:

"I recited before Allah's Messenger more than seventy suras of the Qur'an. His Companions know that I have a better understanding of Allah's Book than they do; and if I were to know that someone had a better understanding than I have, I would have gone to him." It was said that nobody could find fault with Abd Allah's version
(Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 6022)

Let’s closely look at the situation with Ibn Mas‘ūd, who initially had some objections that are often misunderstood.

His Main Concerns were that he felt left out of the conversation, especially given his status as a senior reciter.

He believed that his own personal mushaf, which he had written under the guidance of the Prophet, deserved a place in the final compilation.

He had some disagreements regarding a few surahs most notably, he didn’t include Surah al-Falaq and an-Nās.

Importantly, there’s no authentic hadith or historical record that states Ibn Mas‘ūd labeled the Uthmanic Mushaf as "corrupt" in terms of alteration or fabrication. That term tends to pop up in more contentious or revisionist discussions, rather than in the works of mainstream Islamic historians.

In the end, Ibn Mas‘ūd did come to accept the Uthmanic mushaf.

He ceased his objections once the Ummah came together around it.

You rather base your stance on the hadith regarding 70 surahs and label the remaining 44 as false? Please identity these surahs for better scrutiny.

There’s no evidence to suggest he promoted an alternative Qur'an.

Imam al-Nawawī noted:

“The correct view is that he (Ibn Mas‘ūd) withdrew his opposition and aligned with the consensus.”

Explore2xmore:
It will be most valuable and sincere if you can clearly state what constitute the serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran under the caliphate of Uthman.

A blanket statement without substance is of no value.

The Prophet Muhammad said: “The Koran was revealed in seven dialects, all of them are right and perfect.” When Uthman banned whichever he banned from the Koran, and burned whichever he burned, he banned passages Allah has revealed and burned parts of the Koran which were given to the Muslims by the Messenger of Allah. He appointed a small group of Sahaba (close friends of Muhammad) to rewrite the Koran and left out those who heard the Prophet and memorized what he said. When Ibn Massoud objected to the burning of the other codices of the Koran, Uthman had him taken out of the mosque with violence, and struck him to the ground, and broke one of his ribs. (Hussein, A-Fitnato Al-Kobra [The Great Sedition], pp. 160-161, 181-182)

These are your own Islamic sources providing historic evidence that there was serious disagreement amongst the Sahaba about what should constitute the Quran, they couldn't even agree.

The idea that preservation of the Qur'an can be traced to Muhammed is a lie. It's a claim not supported by your own Islamic narratives and sources.

TenQ is already justice with the textual variance of different Quranic manuscripts.

Explore2xmore:
It will be most valuable and sincere if you can clearly state what constitute the serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran under the caliphate of Uthman.

A blanket statement without substance is of no value.

It's wasn't just Ibn Masud that disagreed, even Aisha called out Uthman with his biased compilation of the Quran.

According to Ibn Umar and Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, one chapter, Surah al-Ahzab had 200 verses in Muhammad’s time. Yet, once Uthman was finished only 73 verses remained, eliminating nearly 140 verses. This tradition is also confirmed by Ubay b. Kabb. (Al-Suyuti’s al-Itqan fii ulum al-Qur'an on nasikh wa mansukh and Darwaza’s al-Qur'an Al-Majid)

This is from your own Islamic sources not oriental or Christians.

Explore2xmore:
Let’s closely look at the situation with Ibn Mas‘ūd, who initially had some objections that are often misunderstood.

His Main Concerns were that he felt left out of the conversation, especially given his status as a senior reciter.

He believed that his own personal mushaf, which he had written under the guidance of the Prophet, deserved a place in the final compilation.

He had some disagreements regarding a few surahs most notably, he didn’t include Surah al-Falaq and an-Nās.

Importantly, there’s no authentic hadith or historical record that states Ibn Mas‘ūd labeled the Uthmanic Mushaf as "corrupt" in terms of alteration or fabrication. That term tends to pop up in more contentious or revisionist discussions, rather than in the works of mainstream Islamic historians.

In the end, Ibn Mas‘ūd did come to accept the Uthmanic mushaf.

He ceased his objections once the Ummah came together around it.

You rather base your stance on the hadith regarding 70 surahs and label the remaining 44 as false? Please identity these surahs for better scrutiny.

There’s no evidence to suggest he promoted an alternative Qur'an.

Imam al-Nawawī noted:

“The correct view is that he (Ibn Mas‘ūd) withdrew his opposition and aligned with the consensus.”

After Uthman had him beaten and got his ribs broken? That sounds like intimidation and oppression- what gangsters will do to have their way.

Explore2xmore:
The Sanʿa manuscript is an essential piece for grasping how the early Qurʾān was transcribed and preserved. Its palimpsest nature shows a practical solution to the limited availability of parchment, rather than any theological disagreements. This common practice of erasing and rewriting over older texts doesn’t suggest that there were different versions of the scriptures; it simply highlights the logistical hurdles that early scribes faced.

Additionally, the differences observed in this manuscript, like variations in spelling, shouldn’t be confused with actual textual differences. Changes in spelling, word order, or missing diacritical marks were quite normal and didn’t change the meaning of the recitation. The later standardization through iʿjām and tashkil represents a move towards clarity, but it doesn’t mean there was any initial inconsistency in the message.

It’s also crucial to remember that the integrity of the Qurʾan has always been rooted in oral tradition. The dedicated memorization efforts by the sahabah and the Prophet Muhammad’s pbuh interactions with Jibrīl during Ramadan reinforce this oral tradition as fundamental.

Finally, even respected scholars like Michael Cook and Francois Deroche point out that while early manuscripts shed light on the preservation process, they don’t undermine the established consistency of the ʿUthmānic Qurʾān. Therefore, the Ṣanaa manuscript enriches our understanding rather than challenging core beliefs

Really, I thought Quran transmission and preservation is word for word.
The consensus on Sanaa manuscripts amongst scholars is not anonymous.

SIRTeee15:
The Prophet Muhammad said: “The Koran was revealed in seven dialects, all of them are right and perfect.” When Uthman banned whichever he banned from the Koran, and burned whichever he burned, he banned passages Allah has revealed and burned parts of the Koran which were given to the Muslims by the Messenger of Allah. He appointed a small group of Sahaba (close friends of Muhammad) to rewrite the Koran and left out those who heard the Prophet and memorized what he said. When Ibn Massoud objected to the burning of the other codices of the Koran, Uthman had him taken out of the mosque with violence, and struck him to the ground, and broke one of his ribs. (Hussein, A-Fitnato Al-Kobra [The Great Sedition], pp. 160-161, 181-182)

These are your own Islamic sources providing historic evidence that there was serious disagreement amongst the Sahaba about what should constitute the Quran, they couldn't even agree.

The idea that preservation of the Qur'an can be traced to Muhammed is a lie. It's a claim not supported by your own Islamic narratives and sources.

TenQ is already justice with the textual variance of different Quranic manuscripts.

SIRTeee15:
After Uthman had him beaten and got his ribs broken? That sounds like intimidation and oppression- what gangsters will do to have their way.

The authenticity of the Qur'an has sparked quite a bit of scholarly discussion, especially when it comes to the actions of Caliph Uthmān ibn Affān and his interactions with key figures like Ibn Mas‘ūd. One claim suggests that Ibn Mas‘ūd was against the burning of personal mushafs and that Uthmān even assaulted him, leading to broken ribs. However, historical evidence largely contradicts this narrative. Reliable sources, such as Sahih Bukhārī and Sahih Muslim, don’t back up these reports of violence, indicating that the stories about Uthmān's aggression likely come from weak or fabricated hadiths often found in Shia literature or Orientalist writings.

Another claim suggests that Surah al-Ahzab originally had 200 verses, referencing narrations from Aisha (RA) and Ubayy ibn Ka‘b. While these accounts appear in Musnad Ahmad, they face scrutiny due to their weaker chains of transmission. Most scholars interpret these references to additional verses as relating to abrogated content rather than a genuine reduction in length by Uthmān. Historical theology recognizes the principle of naskh (abrogation), where certain verses revealed during the Prophet’s lifetime were removed by divine will, a concept that classical scholars accept.

In addition , the idea that Ubayy ibn Ka‘b had a different mushaf with extra surahs doesn’t imply wrongdoing on Uthmān’s part; these differences reflect early teaching methods rather than any corruption of the text. Overall, the narrative that seeks to undermine Uthmān’s role in the Qur'anic compilation lacks solid evidence and overlooks the agreement among the Sahabah, including Ali ibn Abi Talib, who backed Uthmān's efforts to standardize the text. Therefore, what might seem like inconsistencies or omissions are better understood through the lenses of abrogation, dialect standardization, and the preservation of oral tradition.


You will do better in scrutinizing the authenticity of the claims that Ibn Masud was beaten up to forcefully accept the standardised Quran.

Did Tenq show how the core meaning of the verses were lost? Did he prove any wrong or faults in the transmission chain? No!

Or is it how honesttalk21 dismantled his reliance on a pronounciation of words in one verse that is easily explained by dialectic difference you refer to?

SIRTeee15:
After Uthman had him beaten and got his ribs broken? That sounds like intimidation and oppression- what gangsters will do to have their way.

The absence of robust primary evidence supporting claims of violence against ibn Mas'ud undermines the assertion's credibility.

Explore2xmore:
...
Did Tenq show how the core meaning of the verses were lost? Did he prove any wrong or faults in the transmission chain? No!

It is a pity for you.
Chain of Transmission of Qur'an!?
When I did not even extend beyond the differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubakar? I have not even gotten to the Qur'an of Uthman yet.

Explore2xmore:
Or is it how honesttalk21 dismantled his reliance on a pronounciation of words in one verse that is easily explained by dialectic difference you refer to?

No wonder, the cowardly Admin deleted my response specifically to you on your self make-believe about honesttalk21.

Anyone who reads this chat from the beginning will see how weak your Islamic position is about the Qur'an!

To change the subject, you ran away from specific hadiths 1-5 to argue with SIRTeee15 to argue about CONSENSUS of Islamic scholars who came 300 to 600 years after Mohammed!

Go back to the origin of Islam and check what your earliest scholars say.

SIRTeee15:
Really, I thought Quran transmission and preservation is word for word.
The consensus on Sanaa manuscripts amongst scholars is not anonymous.

While Gabriel Said Reynolds offers thoughtful academic insights, his use of speculative phrases like "one might imagine…" doesn’t equate to a firm assertion about a lost or hidden Qur’an.

The Ṣanʿāʾ palimpsest doesn’t undermine the Qur’an’s integrity. Instead, it:

Affirms a rich history of oral and written transmission

Shows early flexibility in expression—something you'd expect in a vibrant oral culture

Confirms that the final standardized Qur’an is the result of a careful, collective effort, rather than a solo rewrite.

TenQ:
It is a pity for you.
Chain of Transmission of Qur'an!?
When I did not even extend beyond the differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubakar? I have not even gotten to the Qur'an of Uthman yet.





No wonder, the cowardly Admin deleted my response specifically to you on your self make-believe about honesttalk21.

Anyone who reads this chat from the beginning will see how weak your Islamic position is about the Qur'an!

To change the subject, you ran away from specific hadiths 1-5 to argue with SIRTeee15 to argue about CONSENSUS of Islamic scholars who came 300 to 600 years after Mohammed!

Go back to the origin of Islam and check what your earliest scholars say.

Don't react in this way. I only pointed out a clear flaw in the position your friend Sirtee15 put you in.

The chain of transmission provides a trace back to the origin from the prophet Muhammad pbuh which you choose to overlook or are unable to study.

The variants you force about are divine. What is there to run from? Keeping the discussion centred on the Quran's preservation!

Explore2xmore:
Don't react in this way. I only pointed out a clear flaw in the position your friend Sirtee15 put you in.

The chain of transmission provides a trace back to the origin from the prophet Muhammad pbuh which you choose to overlook or are unable to study.

The variants you force about are divine. What is there to run from? Keeping the discussion centred on the Quran's preservation!

So , go back to my posts you decided not to touch.

Only Muslims celebrate winning after they have been beaten blue-black like Gaza will celebrate winning whenever Israel just finished dealing with them.

Three pages of evidence against you!

TenQ:
So , go back to my posts you decided not to touch.

Only Muslims celebrate winning after they have been beaten blue-black like Gaza will celebrate winning whenever Israel just finished dealing with them.

Three pages of evidence against you!

Very weak and vain of you to bring in celebrate? What is there to celebrate?

Talmud is not scripture, but is essential for understanding and practicing the religion.

So the Jews are wrong to state tha?

All that a diligent student will innovate in Torah was already given to Moses at Sinai.”
— Talmud, Menachot 29b

“The words of the Scribes are more beloved than the words of the Torah.”
— Talmud, Sanhedrin 11:3

Oh you say you are Christian and claim you don't see any significance in the jews?

TenQ:
Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Please use any of your innovative devices to go record the recitation over 23 years of prophethood.

Go and study your claimed 32 Arabic Quran and regroup them for which are the same. There is a fundamental error in the claim.

You can't find out who Imam Al-Qarafi is without me? Seriously now

Explore2xmore:
While Gabriel Said Reynolds offers thoughtful academic insights, his use of speculative phrases like "one might imagine…" doesn’t equate to a firm assertion about a lost or hidden Qur’an.

The Ṣanʿāʾ palimpsest doesn’t undermine the Qur’an’s integrity. Instead, it:

Affirms a rich history of oral and written transmission

Shows early flexibility in expression—something you'd expect in a vibrant oral culture

Confirms that the final standardized Qur’an is the result of a careful, collective effort, rather than a solo rewrite.

Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

SIRTee15:
Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

No you oversimplify in some thought and wrongly conclude.

The Uthman codec used the dialect of Quraysh which is the dialect of prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Definitely one of the Ahruf in which the Quran was revealed and it could still accommodate various Qiraat.

What ʿUthmān Did:

- Standardize the written Qur’ān into one Uthmanic codex using the Quraysh dialect, the dialect of the Prophet pbuh

- Allow for multiple Qirāʾāt within that codex, as long as they didn’t contradict the rasm (the basic consonantal structure).

- Distribute official muṣḥafs to key regions and ordered the destruction of other divergent written copies to prevent confusion.

He did not:
- Eliminate the concept of Aḥruf altogether.
- Forbid or erase authentic Qirāʾāt that were taught by the Prophet pbuh and preserved through ijazah (certified transmission).
- Alter the content or theology of the Qur’ān.

What Happened to the Seven Aḥruf?
According to prominent scholars like Ibn al-Jazari, al-Suyuti, al-Qurtubi, and Ibn Taymiyyah:

After the Prophet’s passing, Umar and Uthman noticed that these Aḥruf were leading to disputes, especially as Islam spread to non-Arab communities.

ʿUthmān’s standardization aimed to preserve one Harf (Quraysh), which was deemed sufficient, while the Qirāʾāt continued to be preserved orally as part of that tradition.

The other Aḥruf weren’t removed by human action but were lifted by Allah’s will over time to prevent confusion.

SIRTee15:
Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

You agree the dictation/revelation was in different ways?

SIRTee15:
Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

How do you make a confirmation based on speculative phrases. The premise isn't certain

Explore2xmore:
Very weak and vain of you to bring in celebrate? What is there to celebrate?

It is amazing that honesttalk21 didn't provide evidences nor did he answer any direct questions BUT according to you, his repeating of the standard Islamic Narrative is a superior answer to evidences he couldn't respond to!

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Talmud is not scripture, but is essential for understanding and practicing the religion.

So the Jews are wrong to state tha?

All that a diligent student will innovate in Torah was already given to Moses at Sinai.”
— Talmud, Menachot 29b

“The words of the Scribes are more beloved than the words of the Torah.”
— Talmud, Sanhedrin 11:3

Oh you say you are Christian and claim you don't see any significance in the jews?

Isn't it a shame that your prophet who should receive from Allah is regurgitating wrong information written by Jewish scholars in their books.

The Jews are wrong in many fronts, this was why they had problems with Jesus Christ.

Is it not true that ANYTHING of Doctrinal value that Mohammed speaks is directed by Allah?


If it is TRUE, you have a problem that Mohammed was transmitting scientific errors as from Allah

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Please use any of your innovative devices to go record the recitation over 23 years of prophethood.

You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

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Go and study your claimed 32 Arabic Quran and regroup them for which are the same. There is a fundamental error in the claim.

Hafs Qur'an
Warsh Qur'an
Qalun Qur'an
Al-Duri Qur'an
Khalaf Qur'an
Ibn 'Amir Qur'an
Abu Ja'far Qur'an

Are all different, so which one is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise?

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You can't find out who Imam Al-Qarafi is without me? Seriously now

He was born about 600 years after the Hijrah but he is your authority on the Qur'an against testimonies of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy!?


You did NOT answer my questions sir.
AGAIN:

Cc: Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

TenQ:
It is amazing that honesttalk21 didn't provide evidences nor did he answer any direct questions BUT according to you, his repeating of the standard Islamic Narrative is a superior answer to evidences he couldn't respond to!

Honesttalk21 properly explained the hadith you misunderstood. Should he have given new hadith to buttress the point?

TenQ:
Isn't it a shame that your prophet who should receive from Allah is regurgitating wrong information written by Jewish scholars in their books.

You see your eagerness to run with your misconceptions? Is what the prophet pbuh said exactly like the what the jews said? Please don't rush to wrongly conclude, read and compare so you know.


If the Jews had problems with Jesus did you not even expand on what these wrong are? Did Jesus call you christian or ask you to disobey the old laws not the wrong priestly actions and interpretation,

TenQ:
Is it not true that ANYTHING of Doctrinal value that Mohammed speaks is directed by Allah?


If it is TRUE, you have a problem that Mohammed was transmitting scientific errors as from Allah

You won't believe in any case.
Which scientific errors did the prophet Muhammad pbuh transmit? Rather you are the one in error.

TenQ:
You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

Fantastic! You now lie that you have a Quran of Muhammad pbuh that is different from that of Abu Bakr?

Please share some verses of each i.e of prophet Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar, to prove and validate if you don't characteristically lie.

TenQ:
Hafs Qur'an
Warsh Qur'an
Qalun Qur'an
Al-Duri Qur'an
Khalaf Qur'an
Ibn 'Amir Qur'an
Abu Ja'far Qur'an

Are all different, so which one is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise?

Please these are Qiraat (recitation types). In total they are 20 not 32 and you can fit your false claim of 32 into them.

None give any core difference in core meaning. Try prove me wrong!

TenQ:
He was born about 600 years after the Hijrah but he is your authority on the Qur'an against testimonies of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy!?

What did he say against Ibn Masud and Ubay? For him to have said and be recognised is simply because verifiable information was available for him to study, reference and give valid views about. Nothing was or is hidden?

TenQ:
You did NOT answer my questions sir.
AGAIN:

Cc: Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Don't put your words into my written responses. The Quran was written and the prophet orally informed which verses and surahs went where. The Quran wasn't compiled into a single book in the prophet's life.

Which irrelevant question exactly did I not answer?

Why do you ask of Prophet Muhammad pbuh 's Quran when you already have it to have compared with Abubakar's? You were lying so easily forgot?

TenQ:
You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

You showed discrepancy between Muhammad pbuh's Quran and Abubakar's?

TenQ:
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

This may become your reknown archaeological find when you find it.

There's no surviving example of Quran written on cloth that has been authenticated to date as being from the 7th century,from Medina or Mecca that was written during the Prophet’s actual lifetime.

Cloth is much less durable than parchment or bone, especially in Arabia’s climate. It likely decomposed over time, unlike more robust materials.

TenQ:
2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, [b]the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

What is your problem here? What is to be is, a few verses abrogated are seen along with what abrogated them.
Yes I repeat what is preserved and protected by Allah is what is available to the very exact. Inclusive of the variations you ignorantly yap about as different.

Repeating already answered questions will be ignored.

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Honesttalk21 properly explained the hadith you misunderstood. Should he have given new hadith to buttress the point?

I don't explain hadiths, I ask questions about them. Honesttalk21 repeatedly did not answer most of my direct questions on the hadiths. I didn't ask for explanation of hadiths I asked that you answer my questions and here you both failed.

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You see your eagerness to run with your misconceptions? Is what the prophet pbuh said exactly like the what the jews said? Please don't rush to wrongly conclude, read and compare so you know.

According to your prophet
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

Is this scientifically true and correct?

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If the Jews had problems with Jesus did you not even expand on what these wrong are? Did Jesus call you christian or ask you to disobey the old laws not the wrong priestly actions and interpretation,

So, tell me where the Jews got this information from their scripture. If it is in there Scriptures, then I believe it!
Is this in the scripture of the Jews or their scholars invented it?

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You won't believe in any case.
Which scientific errors did the prophet Muhammad pbuh transmit? Rather you are the one in error.

According to Mohammed, he said:
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

This is a gross ERROR!

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Fantastic! You now lie that you have a Quran of Muhammad pbuh that is different from that of Abu Bakr?

Please share some verses of each i.e of prophet Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar, to prove and validate if you don't characteristically lie.

1. Was the verse of stoning adulterers in the Qur'an of Abubakar? No! But it was in the Qur'an according to Mohammed
1. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man in the Qur'an of Abubakar? No! But it was in the Qur'an according to Mohammed

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Please these are Qiraat (recitation types). In total they are 20 not 32 and you can fit your false claim of 32 into them.

None give any core difference in core meaning. Try prove me wrong!

I will give you differences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an in the next page.

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What did he say against Ibn Masud and Ubay? For him to have said and be recognised is simply because verifiable information was available for him to study, reference and give valid views about. Nothing was or is hidden?

What did you say about him?

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Don't put your words into my written responses. The Quran was written and the prophet orally informed which verses and surahs went where. The Quran wasn't compiled into a single book in the prophet's life.

Which irrelevant question exactly did I not answer?

Why do you ask of Prophet Muhammad pbuh 's Quran when you already have it to have compared with Abubakar's? You were lying so easily forgot?

You showed discrepancy between Muhammad pbuh's Quran and Abubakar's?



This may become your reknown archaeological find when you find it.

There's no surviving example of Quran written on cloth that has been authenticated to date as being from the 7th century,from Medina or Mecca that was written during the Prophet’s actual lifetime.

Cloth is much less durable than parchment or bone, especially in Arabia’s climate. It likely decomposed over time, unlike more robust materials.

In other words the Qur'an of Mohammed perished even before Abubakar complied his Qur'an.
Thank you!

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What is your problem here? What is to be is, a few verses abrogated are seen along with what abrogated them.
Yes I repeat what is preserved and protected by Allah is what is available to the very exact. Inclusive of the variations you ignorantly yap about as different.

Repeating already answered questions will be ignored.

According to you:
The unpreserved Qur'an is preserved because what is left from the original Qur'an is preserved!

Listen to yourself, you just concluded that the eternal Qur'an was not perfectly preserved.

Explore2xmore

Here are just TWO where verses mean different things between the Warsh Qur'an and Hafs Qur'an

1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?


Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?


Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.


Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

Explore2xmore,
Just to correct you with more EVIDENCES: the admin deleted from my post.
PART ONE:

1. Hadith About Lost Verses (Including the Stoning Verse)

Sahih al-Bukhari 6829, Sahih Muslim 1691
Narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab:
"Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Book to him. Among what Allah revealed was the Verse of the Stoning, so we recited it, understood it, and acted upon it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stoned (adulterers), and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time, someone will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of Stoning in the Book of Allah,' thus they will go astray by abandoning an obligation that Allah revealed."

This shows that some verses, like the Rajm (stoning) verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

Yet, your Qur'an is preserved!?

2. Hadith About the "Suckling Verse" (Ayah al-Rada’ah)


Sahih Muslim 1452, Sunan Abu Dawud 2062
Narrated by 'Aisha:
"Among what was revealed of the Qur’an was 'ten known sucklings' (to establish mahram relations), then it was abrogated by 'five known sucklings.' When the Prophet (ﷺ) passed away, this was among what was recited of the Qur’an."


This indicates that some verses related to rulings were later abrogated and removed from the Qur'an after the death of Mohammed.

Explore2xmore,
Just to correct you with more EVIDENCES: the admin deleted from my post.
PART TWO:

3. Ibn Mas’ud’s Statement on Missing Surahs

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 7/197-198
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said:
"What we recite as a single surah (in the Mushaf) would (originally) be as long as Surah al-Baqarah."


This suggests that some parts of the Qur’an were much longer before being reduced or abrogated.

4. Hadith on the "Two Surahs" That Were Lost

Sahih Muslim 2289
Narrated by Abu Musa al-Ash’ari:
"We used to recite a surah similar in length and severity to Surah Bara’ah (At-Tawbah), but I have forgotten it except for a single verse : 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of wealth, he would seek a third, and nothing fills the belly of the son of Adam except dust...'"


This confirms that some surahs or verses were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer preserved in the Mushaf.



5. Zaid ibn Thabit’s Statement on Missing Verses

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 10/519
Zaid ibn Thabit said:
"We used to recite a verse that was revealed concerning the struggle in the way of Allah, but it is not found now: 'Strive in the way of Allah with a striving that is due to Him.'"


This further prove that some Qur’anic revelations were lost over time. Yet you claim perfect preservation!