₦airaland Forum

FreeIgboho:
It is not a matter of being already determined not to be convinced. It is a matter of KNOWING something 100%.
I know 100% you have NO WAY of knowing if free will exists BECAUSE you have no way of knowing where thoughts come from!
How do you know you have free will? Where do your thoughts come from? How do you know you're not designed to THINK you have free will??

So you shouldn't be discussing freewill with all this authority just because you happen to know chess!


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Back to square one!🤦🏾‍♂️ it's really true that infact we can never know whether it was you that typed all this🤔. A self-thinking robot likewise can not know whether or not its thoughts are really its own or just pre-programmed👀? Don't you see how riddikulus you sound? 🤨

We infact know where thoughts come from! Scientists are aware of thought-centric centres of the brain. This doesn't negate the fact that our thoughts are influenced by both internal and external stimuli!

You just keep going in circles, from "lack of freewill" to "prayers" and now "thoughts". Even quantum physics is against you. Every outcome exists in superposed states with this states collapsing into one depending on your choice, thus an infinite God is aware of the outcome of these states depending on your choice but you... you make the choice!

FreeIgboho:
I think I now get. Unusual word.
Please what does it mean?

It's about the "best of mankind" and his encounter with this people. It's reported that the "supposed best" 🤔 was ridden, p.diddy style👀, by these men! It's a shade at our Abrahamic cousins😅!

Gabrielshow24:
Back to square one!🤦🏾‍♂️ it's really true that infact we can never know whether it was you that typed all this🤔. A self-thinking robot likewise can not know whether or not its thoughts are really its own or just pre-programmed👀? Don't you see how riddikulus you sound? 🤨

We infact know where thoughts come from! Scientists are aware of thought-centric centres of the brain. This doesn't negate the fact that our thoughts are influenced by both internal and external stimuli!

You just keep going in circles, from "lack of freewill" to "prayers" and now "thoughts". Even quantum physics is against you. Every outcome exists in superposed states with this states collapsing into one depending on your choice, thus an infinite God is aware of the outcome of these states depending on your choice but you... you make the choice!

Well, Libet experiment below proves you wrong. Thoughts are there before you become aware of them - and you really don't have veto power over them which would explain addictions and compulsions!

Gabrielshow24:
It's about the "best of mankind" and his encounter with this people. It's reported that the "supposed best" 🤔 was ridden, p.diddy style👀, by these men! It's a shade at our Abrahamic cousins😅!

I googled it because I've never heard of it before, then reported back to you and was promptly banned! What a story!

FreeIgboho:
I googled it because I've never heard of it before, then reported back to you and was promptly banned! What a story!

😂😂😂Welcome to the league! Our Abrahamic cousins are very shy as regards exposure to the truth👀. We have used it greatly against them in times past still the Truth will surely prevail!🙃

FreeIgboho:
Well, Libet experiment below proves you wrong. Thoughts are there before you become aware of them - and you really don't have veto power over them which would explain addictions and compulsions!

Don't get it wrong there are automatic systems built into man to help him. From "flight or fight" systems to "intuition" among others, it's just there to show us how our brains are "ready" for potential!

In some cases these systems under physical constraints can take over with less effort. Especially for people that have done something over time, it becomes automated to them. I know of people that have trained themselves to 250wpm, it's automatic whether or not they are even looking at the screen. I know of super Gms that play based on intuition and it was always right!

This doesn't negate free will, it just shows there is a complex relationship between conscious and unconscious systems! I have accounted for this likewise under physical constraints! You can also train yourself not be moved by impulse(automated responses).


You can train your readiness potential or automatic systems to automate some processes without much thought from your decision centers. While in other cases it's not so!

Gabrielshow24:
Don't get it wrong there are automatic systems built into man to help him. From "flight or fight" systems to "intuition" among others, it's just there to show us how our brains are "ready" for potential!

In some cases these systems under physical constraints can take over with less effort. Especially for people that have done something over time, it becomes automated to them. I know of people that have trained themselves to 250wpm, it's automatic whether or not they are even looking at the screen. I know of super Gms that play based on intuition and it was always right!

This doesn't negate free will, it just shows there is a complex relationship between conscious and unconscious systems! I have accounted for this likewise under physical constraints! You can also train yourself not be moved by impulse(automated responses).


You can train your readiness potential or automatic systems to automate some processes without much thought from your decision centers. While in other cases it's not so!

Question is, how can you have free will if in every case (not just automated, and the experiment has been replicated hundreds of times) your decision has already been made BEFORE you've made a decision. In other words the decision has already been dropped into your brain from somewhere which you then report as your decision. You are the reporter of the decision, NOT the maker!
Combine that with existence of sleep and you'll see there is a very wide window for an external intelligence to drop any thought they wish into your head and you'll be 100% sure it is your own and be arguing vociferously that of course you have will!
Bottom line, the universe is exponentially much, much more complex than we'er even capable of imagining, and cannot be explained away with chess theory!😁

FreeIgboho:
Question is, how can you have free will if in every case (not just automated, and the experiment has been replicated hundreds of times) your decision has already been made BEFORE you've made a decision. In other words the decision has already been dropped into your brain from somewhere which you then report as your decision. You are the reporter of the decision, NOT the maker!
Combine that with existence of sleep and you'll see there is a very wide window for an external intelligence to drop any thought they wish into your head and you'll be 100% sure it is your own and be arguing vociferously that of course you have will!
Bottom line, the universe is exponentially much, much more complex than we'er even capable of imagining, and cannot be explained away with chess theory!😁

I think you are just arguing about the delay between brain decision making centers and execution!

The brain is quite fast when it comes to that and it can be faster when such pattern is well recognized! For instance, I know once I see a particular person that he wants to bill me. Subconsciously this pattern is marked, my brain would have resolved this based on my past decisions. Do you understand?

What you are arguing about can be compared to train of thoughts? The speed at which the brain processes information. We have seen people with amazingly fast train of thoughts, you wonder whether they had the answers before hand but it was rather instantaneous!

Your expectations of the brain...Or limitations 👀of your brain's capabilities creates this illusion of lack of free will!

Sleep or no sleep, it's just a mechanism for rest but you seem to one to stretch the boundaries of this discussion to include other spiritual factors. Irrespective, we have dealt with this as we regard God as the ultimate factor and I have exemplified that God does influence decisions of man but he doesn't negate his free will!

The so called chess analogy was to show that irrespective of whether the whole of something is known thoroughly the onus is on you to choose the outcome!
Do you agree?

"You are not the maker"🤔, is your brain not yours? The conscious and subconscious have ways of interacting with one another, it doesn't mean that you, as a being, are not the maker of such a thought! You have in no wise negated free will.

Gabrielshow24:
I think you are just arguing about the delay between brain decision making centers and execution!

The brain is quite fast when it comes to that and it can be faster when such pattern is well recognized! For instance, I know once I see a particular person that he wants to bill me. Subconsciously this pattern is marked, my brain would have resolved this based on my past decisions. Do you understand?

What you are arguing about can be compared to train of thoughts? The speed at which the brain processes information. We have seen people with amazingly fast train of thoughts, you wonder whether they had the answers before hand but it was rather instantaneous!

Your expectations of the brain...Or limitations 👀of your brain's capabilities creates this illusion of lack of free will!

Sleep or no sleep, it's just a mechanism for rest but you seem to one to stretch the boundaries of this discussion to include other spiritual factors. Irrespective, we have dealt with this as we regard God as the ultimate factor and I have exemplified that God does influence decisions of man but he doesn't negate his free will!

The so called chess analogy was to show that irrespective of whether the whole of something is known thoroughly the onus is on you to choose the outcome!
Do you agree?

"You are not the maker"🤔, is your brain not yours? The conscious and subconscious have ways of interacting with one another, it doesn't mean that you, as a being, are not the maker of such a thought! You have in no wise negated free will.

I've come accross something that resolves all this. See it below and read it carefully. And it is backed by SCIENCE. Time is an illusion! All these things have already happened (as I've always suspected). It perfectly explains prophecy. The video cassette analogy is almost perfect.

About sleep, I don't know if you know there are people capable of entering other people's sleep and dreams, TB Joshua for example. Imagine a human able to influence you in your most vulnerable state, talkless of a higher power.
So also, your thought should register after you've thought it, not before - as in Libet. Otherwise you're not sure where the thought is from and therefore not sure your decisions are yours!


MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx
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jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Boomark

FreeIgboho:
I've come accross something that resolves all this. See it below and read it carefully. And it is backed by SCIENCE. Time is an illusion! All these things have already happened (as I've always suspected). It perfectly explains prophecy. The video cassette analogy is almost perfect.

About sleep, I don't know if you know there are people capable of entering other people's sleep and dreams, TB Joshua for example. Imagine a human able to influence you in your most vulnerable state, talkless of a higher power.
So also, your thought should register after you've thought it, not before - as in Libet. Otherwise you're not sure where the thought is from and therefore not sure your decisions are yours!


MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Boomark

It's not necessary that your thoughts should register solely after when you have thought them. Some actions do not require much thought! Some things are based on "intuition or instinct👀, as some will prefer to call it". So yes, it's plausible.

Also your eyes are unconsciously feeding your brain with information so also your ears and your brain is constantly interpreting this information! The ones that require automatic response are handled immediately while does that do not require are left to manual input!

Entering people's dreams, is rather not scientific! And I have established that God influences us, so I won't consider anything or anyone less! —This leans towards pseudo-science which I am well aware of but I won't digress into!

Block theory is just a new way of scientific thinking, it's not absurd. Simple deep reasoning can make anyone arrive at such, the whole of past, present and future are all on a plane, it's you that experience it in sequence. My maze analogy should have hinted at it, the external observer sees the maze and its path on the same plane! It doesn't negate free will! Both are concurrently existing, it's you that experiences node A, edge A-B, node B etc...sequentially!

Quantum physics also exemplifies this as states appearing concurrently but your decision collapses them into your own reality! Even my chess analogy should have given you what I meant from the beginning when I said I tackle the general solution! Imagine an omniscient engine that is aware of all the possible moves in chess, pow(10, 122) or more, every possible move you can come up with is known before hand but you.. you.. you still choose your own reality!

Gabrielshow24:
It's not necessary that your thoughts should register solely after when you have thought them. Some actions do not require much thought! Some things are based on "intuition or instinct👀, as some will prefer to call it". So yes, it's plausible.

Also your eyes are unconsciously feeding your brain with information so also your ears and your brain is constantly interpreting this information! The ones that require automatic response are handled immediately while does that do not require are left to manual input!

Entering people's dreams, is rather not scientific! And I have established that God influences us, so I won't consider anything or anyone less! —This leans towards pseudo-science which I am well aware of but I won't digress into!

Block theory is just a new way of scientific thinking, it's not absurd. Simple deep reasoning can make anyone arrive at such, the whole of past, present and future are all on a plane, it's you that experience it in sequence. My maze analogy should have hinted at it, the external observer sees the maze and its path on the same plane! It doesn't negate free will! Both are concurrently existing, it's you that experiences node A, edge A-B, node B etc...sequentially!

Quantum physics also exemplifies this as states appearing concurrently but your decision collapses them into your own reality! Even my chess analogy should have given you what I meant from the beginning when I said I tackle the general solution! Imagine an omniscient engine that is aware of all the possible moves in chess, pow(10, 122) or more, every possible move you can come up with is known before hand but you.. you.. you still choose your own reality!

You don't understand. Libet experiment measured conscious decisions NOT all these other ones you mentioned. Your brainwave should not register a decision before you have decided. Meaning you're simply reporting a decision that's already there. More importantly, that gap provides space for a decision to be inserted for you.

Many things are not scientific not just entering dreams. Are miracles scientific? Or even creation story?. Entering dreams have been attested to by many people.

Block theory answers all the questions including illusion of free willI. This life seems to be a movie that had been played before. So that anybody who watched the movie before can tell you what will happen at any point in the movie. Only thing is that it is impossible for us to imagine - just as it is impossible for us to imagine we have no real freewill!

Actually in QM it is measurement that collapses it. But QM properties are ONLY in QM.
Your chess analogy is very flawed. It doesn't take time into account. How does knowing all possible moves mean you know what will happen each moment or what I'll play 3pm tomorrow? Please explain

FreeIgboho:
(Please DO NOT come close to insulting anyone's beliefs on this thread, be it directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly. Especially do NOT talk bad about Jehovah's Witnesses or Moslems. Mods please help us ban anyone who violates this)


Reasons why Jesus is DEFINITELY God the Son of God:

1) Thousands of years before he was born prophets prophesied that God was coming to visit us. Old Testament (OT) is full of references to his coming.
No other person in the history of mankind has this happened with.

2) Before he came a mighty prophet was sent to prepare his way. John the Baptist (JohnTB) said that was all he came to do. And that he (a mighty prophet) was not fit to untie Jesus' shoe.

3) At his baptism a dove descended on him and a voice from heaven (identified as God the Father), proclaimed, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased," (Matthew 3:17)

4) When he finally came, he himself said he was the long-awaited God and did things God would do - he was after people's souls not money, he forgave sins, accepted worship, raised people from dead, and said he himself was the truth, the life, and the righteousness, and no one came to his Father except through him.

5) He said you'd know he's truly God the Son because his words would never pass away

6) He said he'd raise himself from the dead, and did just that and in such a way that the wrappings used to wrap the body were NOT disturbed

7) Thousands of years after his death he's being worshipped as God and his words have never passed away - exactly as he said!

8} He is worshipped interchangeably with the Father. No other person has been so worshipped
in human history.

9) The Father has been pleased with his worshippers and showered them with blessings. They also worship and call on the Father constantly and he accepts their prayers.

10) He is alive and active in people's lives TODAY!
----------------

Before you dispute any of these remember:

1) You don't have the foggiest idea what God is like, nor can you imagine what he is like.

2) You don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are. So forget all the attributes you have in your head - they were assigned by man. You simply don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are or are not. So forget all attributes you assign to God!

3) If God is explained to you as straight forward and quite uncomplicated, you can be sure they are giving u man's version of God, NOT God as he is.

4) God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.

5) So how do you know God? The ONLY way is the way it happened with Jesus. ANYONE that all those things happened with is God the Son of God. You can't know him any other way. You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY!!

Jesus is fully God and he is fully man. A mystery the carnal mind cannot understand.

Ken4Christ:
Jesus is fully God and he is fully man. A mystery the carnal mind cannot understand.

Exactly! And they keep trying to reason him with carnal mind. God that exists in a dimension beyond our comprehend!

FreeIgboho:
You don't understand. Libet experiment measured conscious decisions NOT all these other ones you mentioned. Your brainwave should not register a decision before you have decided. Meaning you're simply reporting a decision that's already there. More importantly, that gap provides space for a decision to be inserted for you.

Many things are not scientific not just entering dreams. Are miracles scientific? Or even creation story?. Entering dreams have been attested to by many people.

Block theory answers all the questions including illusion of free willI. This life seems to be a movie that had been played before. So that anybody who watched the movie before can tell you what will happen at any point in the movie. Only thing is that it is impossible for us to imagine - just as it is impossible for us to imagine we have no real freewill!

Actually in QM it is measurement that collapses it. But QM properties are ONLY in QM.
Your chess analogy is very flawed. It doesn't take time into account. How does knowing all possible moves mean you know what will happen each moment or what I'll play 3pm tomorrow? Please explain

I suppose according to you, you want men to be driving their cars without ignition! All what libet postulated just shows the activeness of the decision-making system not the decision!

Do you understand? Yes, the chess analogy was to show free will although It didn't accomodate for time in its barest form or expressly as I put it. I only wanted to pass home the theme "existential free will", still it can be modified to include time as well; as all tournament games use time! It's a moot refutation, since time is inherent within it! That's why i didn't emphasize on it! You don't play tournament chess without a clock!

You are just going back to block theory, my maze analogy, although primitive, encapsulates all these! The maze, the actors and the paths are all on the same plane, existing concurrently! The actors sees the paths sequentially! It doesn't negate the free will of the actor! Based on understanding, different actors perceive each other's movements differently—hinting primitively at relativistic perceptive differences!

I didn't what to go to deep into dream theory or entering of people's dreams! I am more interested in how you hope to disprove free will from this point given the fact that I have used the ultimate factor, God as a yardstick to axiomatize external "influence of man"—I am less concerned about who or what below this factor!

Gabrielshow24:
I suppose according to you, you want men to be driving their cars without ignition! All what libet postulated just shows the activeness of the decision-making system not the decision!

Do you understand? Yes, the chess analogy was to show free will although It didn't accomodate for time in its barest form or expressly as I put it. I only wanted to pass home the theme "existential free will", still it can be modified to include time as well; as all tournament games use time! It's a moot refutation, since time is inherent within it! That's why i didn't emphasize on it! You don't play tournament chess without a clock!

You are just going back to block theory, my maze analogy, although primitive, encapsulates all these! The maze, the actors and the paths are all on the same plane, existing concurrently! The actors sees the paths sequentially! It doesn't negate the free will of the actor! Based on understanding, different actors perceive each other's movements differently—hinting primitively at relativistic perceptive differences!

I didn't what to go to deep into dream theory or entering of people's dreams! I am more interested in how you hope to disprove free will from this point given the fact that I have used the ultimate factor, God as a yardstick to axiomatize external "influence of man"—I am less concerned about who or what below this factor!

Nope. Libet shows that you, the conscious person, did not bring your decision into being. It came out of darkness of prior causes, known and unknown, and can even be put there by a higher power outside yourself!
Bottom line, we are not the conscious authors of our decisions as we think. Neuroscience and psychology support this, so does existence of prophesies, addictions, and compulsions!

As for Chess, you keep glossing over this point: please explain how knowing all the possible moves means you know what PARTICULAR move a PARTICULAR player will make at a PARTICULAR moment in time.

Your maze analogy is quite different from block theory. Once again your analogy does not account for time - how does one know where in the maze a particular actor will be at a particular time? In block theory you know with 100% certainty.

Bottom line, free will, as commonly understood, has to be an illusion, albeit one we're incapable of imagining. Our choices and actions are the result of prior causes, some unknown - things like where we were born, to whom, the type of brain and personality we were given, our environment and experiences growing up, etc, none of which we chose!

Yes, I know a belief in free will is fundamental to Christianity and almost everything else we value as human beings. I'm aware it is hard to imagine a functioning society without first assuming that every person is the true source of his or her thoughts and actions. Yet the FACTS tell a different story. The facts tell us that free will has to be an illusion!



MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Boomark, Ken4Christ

FreeIgboho:
Nope. Libet shows that you, the conscious person, did not bring your decision into being. It came out of darkness of prior causes, known and unknown, and can even be put there by a higher power outside yourself!
Bottom line, we are not the conscious authors of our decisions as we think. Neuroscience and psychology support this, so does existence of prophesies, addictions, and compulsions!

As for Chess, you keep glossing over this point: please explain how knowing all the possible moves means you know what PARTICULAR move a PARTICULAR player will make at a PARTICULAR moment in time.

Your maze analogy is quite different from block theory. Once again your analogy does not account for time - how does one know where in the maze a particular actor will be at a particular time? In block theory you know with 100% certainty.

Bottom line, free will, as commonly understood, has to be an illusion, albeit one we're incapable of imagining. Our choices and actions are the result of prior causes, some unknown - things like where we were born, to whom, the type of brain and personality we were given, our environment and experiences growing up, etc, none of which we chose!

Yes, I know a belief in free will is fundamental to Christianity and almost everything else we value as human beings. I'm aware it is hard to imagine a functioning society without first assuming that every person is the true source of his or her thoughts and actions. Yet the FACTS tell a different story. The facts tell us that free will has to be an illusion!



MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Boomark, Ken4Christ

Nope, that's wrong! The pilot flies the plane even though he is aware of potential ready automatic systems that aid him! At least he is not the one calculating the altitude 👀 etc.., but he is the one flying the plane and when he needs to he can set it to automatic!

The same goes for the brain, the automated systems are potential ready, they do not stop. Cessation of this, leads to straight visit to heaven 😁! Thus, the fact that libet showed that the brain is potential ready doesn't negate the window of agency of choice! it doesn't!

A lot of things are potential ready. it doesn't negate exhibition of free will! Addictions are well exemplified as they are tied to the brain's inclinations towards a pleasure rewarding action!

My chess analogy doesn't fall short, in chess each position can derive from others! Karlsbad pawn structure can be gotten from a variety of openings, the order doesn't matter! Knowing all possible moves over the course of time invariably encapsulates the fact that I know the particular move(s) a person will make during a specific time! 🤦🏾‍♂️ How hard is this for one to understand? An omniscient God that sees all possible moves over the course of time can know a particular move or action as related to time!

Depending on the circumstances, I am sure that in the first 10 seconds of a game I have blitzed out 7-10moves. I am not arguing from the perspective of a man but as an omniscient God, I can definitely know what move Magnus Carlsen will play by move 40! I could make the position complex such that he will gulp up a lot his time and at the final moment(1hr 29mins x-second[s]) he makes a plain move to reach time control! Hence from God's perspective it's entirely simple but from an human perspective...Very difficult but still circumstances can be influenced to make my actions align to such!

You keep appealing to the impossible, as a man you have free will while from God's perspective, He can influence whatsoever he wills...Simple!

Gabrielshow24:
Nope, that's wrong! The pilot flies the plane even though he is aware of potential ready automatic systems that aid him! At least he is not the one calculating the altitude 👀 etc.., but he is the one flying the plane and when he needs to he can set it to automatic!

The same goes for the brain, the automated systems are potential ready, they do not stop. Cessation of this, leads to straight visit to heaven 😁! Thus, the fact that libet showed that the brain is potential ready doesn't negate the window of agency of choice! it doesn't!

A lot of things are potential ready. it doesn't negate exhibition of free will! Addictions are well exemplified as they are tied to the brain's inclinations towards a pleasure rewarding action!

My chess analogy doesn't fall short, in chess each position can derive from others! Karlsbad pawn structure can be gotten from a variety of openings, the order doesn't matter! Knowing all possible moves over the course of time invariably encapsulates the fact that I know the particular move(s) a person will make during a specific time! 🤦🏾‍♂️ How hard is this for one to understand? An omniscient God that sees all possible moves over the course of time can know a particular move or action as related to time!

Depending on the circumstances, I am sure that in the first 10 seconds of a game I have blitzed out 7-10moves. I am not arguing from the perspective of a man but as an omniscient God, I can definitely know what move Magnus Carlsen will play by move 40! I could make the position complex such that he will gulp up a lot his time and at the final moment(1hr 29mins x-second[s]) he makes a plain move to reach time control! Hence from God's perspective it's entirely simple but from an human perspective...Very difficult but still circumstances can be influenced to make my actions align to such!

You keep appealing to the impossible, as a man you have free will while from God's perspective, He can influence whatsoever he wills...Simple!

So you now agree that from God's perspective you have no freewill. Can't you see God's perspective is the real thing NOT man's very subjective and false perspective??

As for the pilot flying the plane, can't you see that EVERYTHING he does is a result of prior events. If he's suicidal he may crash the plane but that's NOT because he DECIDED to be suicidal (freewill), but because he happens to be suicidal (NOT freewill)

It really doesn't take much reasoning to realize that freewill is an illusion. Our false feeling of freewill arises from our moment-to-moment ignorance of the prior causes of our thoughts and actions. We describe what it feels like to identify with those thoughts as "freewill".
Yet we don't consciously decide what thoughts arise in our minds. Our thoughts and intentions simply arise from prior causes and conditions, rather than being the product of conscious, deliberate choice. Even the feeling of choosing between thoughts, is itself just another thought that appears without our conscious control, Thus our choices are ultimately determined by factors beyond our conscious awareness.
Therefore you are no more responsible for the next thing you think (and therefore do) than you are for the fact you were born in Nigeria!

In chess, let's say you have two choices a or b. If you had freewill how would God have known with CERTAINTY your next move simply because he knows all the choices. That is the question!
If you say it's because he introduces constraints, he might as well drop the thought into your mind which to choose - both amount to the same absence of freedom!

Our sense of freewill results from our not paying close attention to what it is like to be human. Thoughts and intentions simply arise in the mind. How can you say you have freewill when everything you consciously intend is caused by events in your brain of which you are entirely unaware??

FreeIgboho:
So you now agree that from God's perspective you have no freewill. Can't you see God's perspective is the real thing NOT man's very subjective and false perspective??

As for the pilot flying the plane, can't you see that EVERYTHING he does is a result of prior events. If he's suicidal he may crash the plane but that's NOT because he DECIDED to be suicidal (freewill), but because he happens to be suicidal (NOT freewill)

It really doesn't take much reasoning to realize that freewill is an illusion. Our false feeling of freewill arises from our moment-to-moment ignorance of the prior causes of our thoughts and actions. We describe what it feels like to identify with those thoughts as "freewill".
Yet we don't consciously decide what thoughts arise in our minds. Our thoughts and intentions simply arise from prior causes and conditions, rather than being the product of conscious, deliberate choice. Even the feeling of choosing between thoughts, is itself just another thought that appears without our conscious control, Thus our choices are ultimately determined by factors beyond our conscious awareness.
Therefore you are no more responsible for the next thing you think (and therefore do) than you are for the fact you were born in Nigeria!

In chess, let's say you have two choices a or b. If you had freewill how would God have known with CERTAINTY your next move simply because he knows all the choices. That is the question!
If you say it's because he introduces constraints, he might as well drop the thought into your mind which to choose - both amount to the same absence of freedom!

Our sense of freewill results from our not paying close attention to what it is like to be human. Thoughts and intentions simply arise in the mind. How can you say you have freewill when everything you consciously intend is caused by events in your brain of which you are entirely unaware??

what aspect of God influences men don't you understand? It likewise doesn't connote that from God's perspective men don't have free will!

It just shows when God wants something to be done, it's fulfilled! The human agency is factored in with circumstances configuring such behavior to fulfill that said intent of God!

SIMPLE, Your outright submission that free will is an illusion is outright far-fetched and wrong!
God works with human will to fulfill his own will! There will be no God's will over a decision if there were no human will!—Constrained to the physical manifestation of his will!

Gabrielshow24:
Nope, that's wrong! The pilot flies the plane even though he is aware of potential ready automatic systems that aid him! At least he is not the one calculating the altitude 👀 etc.., but he is the one flying the plane and when he needs to he can set it to automatic!

The same goes for the brain, the automated systems are potential ready, they do not stop. Cessation of this, leads to straight visit to heaven 😁! Thus, the fact that libet showed that the brain is potential ready doesn't negate the window of agency of choice! it doesn't!

A lot of things are potential ready. it doesn't negate exhibition of free will! Addictions are well exemplified as they are tied to the brain's inclinations towards a pleasure rewarding action!

My chess analogy doesn't fall short, in chess each position can derive from others! Karlsbad pawn structure can be gotten from a variety of openings, the order doesn't matter! Knowing all possible moves over the course of time invariably encapsulates the fact that I know the particular move(s) a person will make during a specific time! 🤦🏾‍♂️ How hard is this for one to understand? An omniscient God that sees all possible moves over the course of time can know a particular move or action as related to time!

Depending on the circumstances, I am sure that in the first 10 seconds of a game I have blitzed out 7-10moves. I am not arguing from the perspective of a man but as an omniscient God, I can definitely know what move Magnus Carlsen will play by move 40! I could make the position complex such that he will gulp up a lot his time and at the final moment(1hr 29mins x-second[s]) he makes a plain move to reach time control! Hence from God's perspective it's entirely simple but from an human perspective...Very difficult but still circumstances can be influenced to make my actions align to such!

You keep appealing to the impossible, as a man you have free will while from God's perspective, He can influence whatsoever he wills...Simple!

Oga, if someone knows exactly what you will do in 10, 000 years time, you had no choice.

FreeIgboho:
Nope. Libet shows that you, the conscious person, did not bring your decision into being. It came out of darkness of prior causes, known and unknown, and can even be put there by a higher power outside yourself!
Bottom line, we are not the conscious authors of our decisions as we think. Neuroscience and psychology support this, so does existence of prophesies, addictions, and compulsions!

As for Chess, you keep glossing over this point: please explain how knowing all the possible moves means you know what PARTICULAR move a PARTICULAR player will make at a PARTICULAR moment in time.

Your maze analogy is quite different from block theory. Once again your analogy does not account for time - how does one know where in the maze a particular actor will be at a particular time? In block theory you know with 100% certainty.

Bottom line, free will, as commonly understood, has to be an illusion, albeit one we're incapable of imagining. Our choices and actions are the result of prior causes, some unknown - things like where we were born, to whom, the type of brain and personality we were given, our environment and experiences growing up, etc, none of which we chose!

Yes, I know a belief in free will is fundamental to Christianity and almost everything else we value as human beings. I'm aware it is hard to imagine a functioning society without first assuming that every person is the true source of his or her thoughts and actions. Yet the FACTS tell a different story. The facts tell us that free will has to be an illusion!

Please stop tagging all of us in each post. I gave your friend Gabriel an assignment which he has never done.

FreeIgboho

Bro take your seat here and watch. I remember I didn't tag you. The challenge will start on Wednesday unless they are scared. Click on follow to get info or you can decide to complete.

https://www.nairaland.com/8484151/bible-challenge-prove-trinity-falsehood#136238868

Gabrielshow24:
what aspect of God influences men don't you understand? It likewise doesn't connote that from God's perspective men don't have free will!

It just shows when God wants something to be done, it's fulfilled! The human agency is factored in with circumstances configuring such behavior to fulfill that said intent of God!

SIMPLE, Your outright submission that free will is an illusion is outright far-fetched and wrong!
God works with human will to fulfill his own will! There will be no God's will over a decision if there were no human will!—Constrained to the physical manifestation of his will!

Well if I can make you do anything I wish, from my perspective you have no freewill.

Freewill has to be an illusion because your thoughts, which lead to your actions, appear indepent of your conscious input and based on processes within your brain that you're not even aware of talkless of controlling, all based on past occurrences or external input. And you can't override your own mind. And if you could, it would still be with thoughts - thoughts that originate in processes you don't control!

Boomark:
FreeIgboh

Bro take your seat here and watch. I remember I didn't tag you. The challenge will start on Wednesday unless they are scared. Click on follow to get info or you can decide to complete.

https://www.nairaland.com/8484151/bible-challenge-prove-trinity-falsehood#136238868

Will do, definitely.
Which assignment did you give Gabriel?

Boomark:
FreeIgboho

Bro take your seat here and watch. I remember I didn't tag you. The challenge will start on Wednesday unless they are scared. Click on follow to get info or you can decide to complete.

https://www.nairaland.com/8484151/bible-challenge-prove-trinity-falsehood#136238868

How do you folks think this below fits into all this?


MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx, gabrielshow24
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Ken4Christ

FreeIgboho:
Will do, definitely.
Which assignment did you give Gabriel?

He said something and I told him that he made Jesus a liar. He jumped up and down that he will will show the whole world who I am.

He has never replied me again since I showed it to him. That's exactly what trinity doctrine is doing. Making Jesus a liar and rejecting his words.

See it below.

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/16#136226478

FreeIgboho:
How do you folks think this below fits into all this?

If he has been warned and told to pray, then he has a solution given to him. No one knew if he actually prayed or that everything ended with what he wrote in the post.

Even as we are preaching Christ, let all know that we all serve the Father who is the only true God. Christ is more interested in those who do the will of God. The will of God came from the things he told us about God.

Boomark:
If he has been warned and told to pray, then he has a solution given to him. No one knew if he actually prayed or that everything ended with what he wrote in the post.

Even as we are preaching Christ, let all know that we all serve the Father who is the only true God. Christ is more interested in those who do the will of God. The will of God came from the things he told us about God.

You don't think that his returning from a crusade amounted to prayer? Different if he were returning from a whoré house.
I think it rather illustrates "what will be will be".

As for the Father being the only... the Bible ACTUALLY connects the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a unified way, indicating their distinct yet inseparable relationship.

FreeIgboho:
How do you folks think this below fits into all this?


MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx, gabrielshow24
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Ken4Christ

God apparently gave him heads up about the circumstances planned for him by the other side👀. It doesn't negate his free will...my bad, It didn't negate his free will. It just showed he didn't handle the situation well! If the situation was from God then that's the way God intended for him to go but the context impugns this!

Thus, he had months to seek the Lord's face and change his fate—obviously planned for him by the people of darknesse👀! Such pronouncement against institutional terrestrial powers needs God's backing. You can't be a banal person and in Elijah-esque style go and challenge Jezebel 🤧—Wisdom doesn't dictate such!

Still, we rejoice that he was found in the Lord, all things being equal👀!

Boomark:
He said something and I told him that he made Jesus a liar. He jumped up and down that he will will show the whole world who I am.

He has never replied me again since I showed it to him. That's exactly what trinity doctrine is doing. Making Jesus a liar and rejecting his words.

See it below.

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/16#136226478

The bolded are lies, in that same thread; I replied all sons of Arri-aaan!

You don't even have a problem statement 😂 and you make errors that shouldn't be found from a supposed English Major! —Errors in understanding by the way👀; I'm not that petty to count grammatical errors 👀!

You aim to disprove that Jesus isn't God yet you haven't given us an ontological and epistemological definition of God. How then can you show us that Jesus isn't God? When you don't know what makes God God? 😂

So far all what you have done is show, identity-wise, that Jesus is not the Father which is redundant as trinity already exemplifies!

Even if we indulge you as regards Jesus, what shall you say of the Spirit? Is there something that God can do that his Spirit can't 🤔? Perhaps in your inveighed world this is possible!

FreeIgboho:
You don't think that his returning from a crusade amounted to prayer? Different if he were returning from a whoré house.
I think it rather illustrates "what will be will be".

As for the Father being the only... the Bible ACTUALLY connects the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a unified way, indicating their distinct yet inseparable relationship.

Matthew 7:22-23 HCSB
[22] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? ’ [23] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

From my experience and things done to me personally, I have seen law breakers. Those who preach, conduct services but still pervert justice. Still deceive people and more. But whenever you see them preaching you will feel they are too great in the spirit.

Here on nairaland, I see liars who twist the word of God to suit their man-made doctrine but are still preaching. At times I wonder if they really know that those who lie to defend a church or doctrine are not doing it for God.

The will of God is greater than all these things. I don't know what happened to him but I know some of them still practice wickedness even as preachers.


You can take the challenge, let's see if the bible actually connect the Father, Son, and Holy spirit in a unity way. Don't be afraid or you can nominate someone.