₦airaland Forum

AlbertNewton:
.

Hello sir, good evening...

I don't know if it's just me, but today's response looks soo long. Maybe my brain is having a slow day, taking too much time to read through. 😅

I just thought to pause everything and commend you.

There's a feeling you get when you taste good food after eating something you didn't even realise was bad for a long time.

There's a feeling you get when you see people talk like simple logical humans online after being used to erratic conversations (I know I'm also guilty of cause these erratic conversations in the first place, I hope I never go back there).

Trust you're doing well?

Yeah, I get you. You're basically saying some truths are unknowable, so everyone just believes whatever makes the most sense to them. And since there's no ultimate judge for who's right or wrong, everyone just hold on to their own "truth".
I guess you may also be insinuating that the truth about God may fall in this category of unknowable/unverifiable truth.

Yes that was the thought.

And yhh, from the normal physical word's perspective, the truth about God should fall into this category.
But then for people who believe in the supernatural, obviously the truth has to be exactly what the Supreme Being says it is.
So to me, the truth is whatever God says it is.
Then we'd still have the liberty of believing (more like accepting to believe) something else.
So still Objective Truth and Personal Belief, but this time around there's a fixed standard for determining the objective truth.

1. Perhaps if the biblical god were not as tribalistic and murderous as the bible accounts show him to be, I would find him much more acceptable.
2. If he didn't create hell for people to burn in forever as punishment for different petty sins, then I would like him more.
3. If he demonstrates more intelligence and compassion in dealing with people, realising that they cannot be entirely blamed for their flaws (because they are largely controlled by their biology and psychology), he would seem more real to me.

Of what benefit would this conversation be if I don't attempt to address some of the my thoughts on these:
All my opinions here.

1. I think playing the role of a judge comes with the task of deep research. Researching to understand.
A judge would have to understand so many things like personality, backstory, reason, details... Stuff like that.
Some people do love to ask why God allows bad things go unpunished, then proceed to do bad things, and then also proceed to ask God why He punishes them... I think that's one thing you can think about.

After looking into the personality of God, there's some consistent behavioural patterns/character you can start to see.
For instance storytelling, mystery, repeated symbolism, surprise... Stuff like that.
Liberty of choice, after explaining the exact consequences of each.

I think there's a lot to understand before judging.

Then after everything, what is life?
What if He takes life only when He knows the rest of it will be meaningless to Him and to the owner, to be restored back at a time where it will be way more meaningful and full of second chances?

Thought: Does an actual father often take away the lives of their children when they start over abusing it or when he's protecting them from something, etc.? Like restricting the social life of a child who's a nuisance to society, or when there's nuisance out in the society.

Yhh I understand some of the reasons may seem (barbaric), but times change, different generations see different things differently.

2. I won't even go into the details but from the same Scriptures you were exposed to, I've read, concluded and found groups of people who've concluded that that idea is false to large extents.
The vivid picture of hell that's been painted by the church for decades now is not even in the Scriptures. Plenty of those things were conclusions drawn from ancient Greek and Roman mythology. We could dive in, or you could take these cues to do a little research.
The Bible just shows many rough sketches of what judgement would look like and the original words used in the Bible doesn't even translate to the definitions of hell we have now. And just like with plenty other things, there's much symbolic representation of things, doesn't necessarily have to be a literal interpretation.

The summary of what I believe about life, death and judgement as a whole is this:
• God is a just, impartial judge. Whatever you can imagine, that properly counts as unfair treatment or impartiality, God will likely not do that.
• Men do evil, became evil by nature, know the moral status of a majority of their actions.
• God sees the heart, motive behind the actions of every man.
• God eventually rewards every right action appropriately, condemns for every wrong action appropriately.
• This as you'd expect happens after giving everyone a chance to correct their mistakes here.

At the end of the day a just Judge will sentence you to whatever punishment you rightly deserve for your action, after considering motive, influence, disposition (like remorse).

And if God is a just Judge, there's no burning in hell forever for some basic set of wrongdoings. Unless of course there's certain sins that might require that. (Which I really really doubt).

3. Well, I think intelligence and compassion like many other things will be relative. What seems intelligent to you might not seem intelligent enough to someone twice as wise. I get it though, I do ask the exact same questions at times, in other ways.
But I've given things you can reflect on that covers that aspect in the other responses.

No, the Energy I am proposing as the source of creation is completely devoid of personality. Characteristics and personalities merely emerge in the various things the energy transform to: greenness of vegetation, speed of light, gravity around massive bodies, emotions in human beings etc are all qualities that emerged as a result of energy transforming to different things. The energy itself doesn't have those qualities.

Ohhhh I see. Fair point.

Just like white light giving off a whole spectrum of colours that seemed like they weren't there before, if you're familiar with those parts of physics.

But don't you think this Energy has to somehow have a mechanism for choosing what to dispense from itself, and how to change form to give off such elaborately detailed results?
One of the only ways energy can be out to use is when it's "harnessed" so?? Shouldn't there be something harnessing this Eternal Infinite Energy? Whether in itself of independent of itself.

Meanwhile have you heard of the word Yahweh and the concept behind it? The struggle with understanding the original words that translated into it...

The word is what the Biblical God was said to give as His name.
After many people struggled with understanding it and how it should be translated, some people stood to agree that God said something like, "I AM" to Moses in a complex way that makes it sound like "I am that which I am/that which I will be".

Again, gives the same energy as your Eternal Infinite Energy just casually existing, becoming other things.

Of course anything that can be considered as the creator or source of the universe must be itself "uncreatable" and indestructible. But the idea of a personal God with certain qualities is problematic for being the ultimate source, because it makes us start to question how such specific personalities or qualities emerged in such an entity. Why is he good and not evil ? Why does he have certain emotions? These questions imply that something must have caused the entity to have the specific set of qualities it has, meaning that it is itself subject to something external, thereby invalidating it/him as the ultimate source.

I don't know... The point is seen but still doesn't seem to work well as a point to me.
You're still saying God having a personality would invalidate his God-ness but I still think the fact that the creation and the creator seem to possess the possibility of doesn't necessarily mean anything bad for the creator, just part of the whole mirroring stuff.
Can't really place my head around it so I'll leave it there.

But what if it's the emotions along with independent logic and all that that makes up sentience? So God being God has all that in order to be sentient. Then mirrors all those characteristics into us in order for us to be sentient as well?

And you know every emotion has its own use. The issue would be when emotions can't be controlled, are used wrongly.

Then again, being subject to external influences (not control) isn't necessary bad right?
As a creator I can make a dish that gives me pleasure when I eat it, without it taking away my superiority by claiming it controls me, right?

For the idea of good and bad, I was just trying to compose a thought when I realised all I was saying was an interpretation of something called Divine Command Theory. Looking it up will pass the thought better than I ever could.

But yhh, that'll only apply to people who already believe in the first place.

The simple problem is that our mind simply can't process the idea of something being eternal. Our brain power is just not equipped for something like that. So it will still actually make sense to question the source of this "energy". But since we also know logically that something has to be the ultimate source of everything we see around us, our best bet is just to look for the best candidate that could be the ultimate creator. So to me, based on what is known scientifically (for now), an Eternal Infinite Energy is what makes the most sense to me as the ultimate source of creation. But as I've emphasized before, I'm open to other possibilities and theories.

Actually the thought makes a lot of sense. I've taken it with me already, adding it as another layer of understanding.

And yhh humans by nature are curious beings. Then also sometimes they just feign curiosity to mask other agendas... 😏

I get you now. I agree that if we specifically want to create sentient entities we will most likely take a cue or inspiration from what is already available in our environment and then perhaps make some modifications. So it makes sense to assume that if we are indeed created by a sentient creator, then part of his personalities will show up in us. But the reverse is also true. If we, as sentient beings, want to imagine a sentient entity that supposedly created us, then part of the attributes and characteristics we will ascribe to this entity will most probably mirror our own personalities.

Yhh that was the precise point. And yes the reverse is also true, the argument goes both ways unfortunately...

As for the purpose of the universe (and us), I think if we take religion and religious teachings out of the equation and just observe the universe objectively, there is no real purpose in the grand scheme of things. On some level though certain things may serve some valuable purposes: like the Sun sustaining life on earth, certain microorganisms being essential in the human body to carry out different vital processes, or an individual living his life for a particular cause. But it doesn't seem like there's any specific purpose to it all.

Exactly, we can't see the purpose. 😅
So then what better explanation do we have given the extent of intent, complexity and attention to detail, than to say we're just test-runs of some sort of project, or some pleasure project? Or the answer is beyond our realm, in the hands of some sort of creator...

Actually if I put aside certain events recorded in the bible (especially in the old testament) and some core Christian beliefs (heaven and hell, Jesus dying for our sins), Christianity in its modern form is largely appealing. Far more good than evil have been done through Christianity and Christians generally just want to live good lives and go to heaven when they die. So even though I believe Christianity is based on falsehoods, I think Christianity is good for the world for the most part. It is a great social gathering for people to meet others and have fun (which is part of what makes us human).

What can I say?
We hold similar beliefs on some of these things.

Also looks easy to understand why you'd think in some of these ways.

I still go to church once in a while by the way (I always enjoy the singing and dancing, and sometimes interesting motivational sermons by intelligent preachers about general life matters). And sometimes when I see people in such joyous mood while singing and dancing, I wish I could also throw away my rationality and be like them.

Ahh!! What better way to surprise me? 😂
It's mixed feelings honestly...

While atheism is liberating (you're no longer living under the shackles of religion), but if you ask me if I would rather have the whole world become atheists, I would say no. I'm not too sure about how good it will be for the world if the vast majority of people become atheists. When people realise there's no sky daddy monitoring their every move and who has written some laws they have to obey, I don't know what they would choose to do with that freedom.
So summarily, I acknowledge that Christianity (especially in its modern form) is generally good for the world (if we regard it merely as a social organisation), but I do not believe in the core tenets of the religion.

Ohh, bold statements.
At least you know in detail what you stand for: Not Atheism per se, not anti-Christianity, just something logical.

Back then I used to say actual Christianity shouldn't be called a religion. At its basic form, just do whatever is right and you're good to go. Denomination-based doctrines spoilt things for us.

This is actually a big issue for me. If the bible is the best means the "all-knowing" god could think of to convey the truth to the people, then he has failed very woefully. Many passages in the bible, which are supposedly meant to address crucial issues, are ambiguous and open to different interpretations. This is why it's very easy for pastors to form different denominations based on their own interpretation and understanding of what god wants. And since there is no final judge, everyone keeps believing his own "truth" (as you would say), and the confusion continues!

I'm somehow betting that if there was a book with clear instructions and explanations (there are), people will still twist it. 😅
Takes us back to the gender talk and truth being a personal stuff... Who decides what's a woman and why/how did people leave the hard scientific facts to convince themselves of other stuff?

It'll also be the whole idea of humans just chasing dust... Leaving the instructions and explanations that are obvious and straightforward and looking for meaning in between lines of letters that were casually written without the intention of it being included as part of a Bible.

Thirdly, according to the Scriptures, the God I believe in kinda just loves speaking in riddles and mystery—parables. If He's actually God and that's His own nature, who are we to complain?
According to Scriptures too, humans by nature are somehow referred to as inquisitive.
So wouldn't it make sense that we complement each other? A mysterious God and His inquisitive creation, Him leaving clues, us digging them out. Maybe that's part of His definition of "pleasure".

Whatever the case sha, the perceived damage seems to be done and I can see why you say so

AlbertNewton:
At this point I believed I've abused my privilege by typing extremely long stuff, I hope you bear with me... 😂😂

So one of my main issues with the biblical god is promising the land of other people to the Israelites and eventually ordering the Israelite to murder everyone in those lands. As a believer in a "loving" god, how do you rationalize this act ?

Which parts of the bible have you had to question seriously when you started to study the bible, and which explanations did you come up with eventually that make sense to you ?

Are there still parts of the bible that don't quite make sense to you ?

I won't lie oo, I've not really read the entirety of the Bible enough to qualify as fully going through the whole thing.

The issues I have once in a while are usually vague details, like "Why was this particular choice of words used?" Or "What's the significance of this story they added?" small small stuff.
I didn't really keep track but back in the early days I had much confusion, over time they left, much time has passed.

I keep getting new understanding while reading the same things tho.

If I could lay a hold of my Bible Study notes I'd be able to find some places where I had issues and eventually understood. Unfortunately I'm a bit old in this path 😅

Revelations tho, I have a hard time understanding everything down to the detail. I'd understand one thing, then moving forward I'd start questioning my knowledge. There's still a lot of work there for me, hoping I get help soon enough.

Have skipped one part... Hoping you get to understand why.

AlbertNewton:
So one of my main issues with the biblical god is promising the land of other people to the Israelites and eventually ordering the Israelite to murder everyone in those lands. As a believer in a "loving" god, how do you rationalize this act?

This is a flimsy excuse!
I told you what happened but it's obvious you just feel like accusing the Bible God for what the nicest person you can think of would have done.
Go through the world map today and you'll see that the land of Canaan is in the center so that people in the East and those in the West could learn from them the standard God set.
The whole earth belongs to this God and choosing a portion to establish His worship can't be ruled out so after sending a warning signal to all the inhabitants of Canaan whoever dares Him is ready to die.
Of course people back then only obey the God whose worshipers are the mightiest army therefore what made the inhabitants of Canaan back then think they can stop the Almighty God and His worshipers?

MaxInDHouse:
You're wrong here!
Because all normal people ask questions like:
How did life begin?
Why are we here?
Why do innocent people suffer?
What happens to us when we die?
Will suffering ever end?
If 98% love peace why do much wars?

All these questions Jehovah's Witnesses answered convincingly so what stops me from becoming one of them?

How many Muslims do you know that have converted from Islam to JW? And doesn't Islam itself have answers to the questions you listed up there ?
To the best of my knowledge, converting from Islam to JW is rare, and that is why I'm interested in hearing about your conversion story ?
Did you make findings about all the available Christian denominations and decided JW is the best ? I believe you can see the reason for my curiosity.

God loves people so there is a provision for sincere and honest hearted people who lived and died in false religions for instance He said about them.

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.

God will resurrect both righteous and unrighteous people {Act 24:15} the righteous are people who knew God's laws and lived by the laws the unrighteous are people who don't know God's laws but lived and died by their own conscience so God will give them a second chance after Satan and his demons has been locked up for thousand years by then only Jehovah's Witnesses will be practicing their religion so no more confusion but whoever refuse to join us then will be allowed to live for just a hundred years before he die naturally as a youth! Isaiah 65:20

So our God has a purpose for both those who knew the truth and those who doesn't know it but as for wicked people who doesn't care at all their death means their end because they have no good records for which God needs to remember them for! Psalms 9:11

So essentially you're saying that if I'm not a JW member (nor a Christian) and I don't even worship God , I can still make "heaven" as long as I live "righteously" ?
How do you interpret John 14:6 ?

MaxInDHouse:
This is the reason why i said you haven't studied the Bible with His Witnesses!

Don't you think it's a very serious problem if I can only come to understand or learn the truth of the Bible by studying with the "His Witnesses" ? Why should the truth about something so vital be difficult to access ?

God wanted to restore paradise on this planet but first He need a place where people who knows His standards will stay as an example for all other nations who doesn't know Him so He allowed the Israelite (chosen nation) to be enslaved in the world's most powerful nation (Egypt) then He went to Egypt with two feeble octogenarians to release His people without a military force.
So tell me between such a God and those stubborn nations who refused to leave Canaan for Him after hearing what He did to Egypt who is WICKED?
Remember that all the nations back then believe in their Gods because they feel it's these Gods that's helping them to win battles so if the God of Israel can conquer Egypt without a military force is that not enough warning sign for them to leave Canaan for His worshipers?

Why couldn't an all-powerful god that supposedly created trillions of galaxies (with billions of stars in each galaxy, and tens of planets around each star) simply turn the wilderness to a permanently habitable place for the Israelite rather than having them murder other people to occupy their lands (which were flowing with milk and honey ) ?
Wouldn't converting the wilderness to a fertile land flowing with milk and honey be a more sensible way for god to demonstrate his power ?
And again why was it difficult for this god to make a tiny nation of Israel to obey him ?
Wouldn't it make more sense if god made ALL the people of the world HIS people at the same time rather than choosing a single nation (who he had to threaten to destroy so many times) ?
You see, the stories recorded in the bible about god's actions don't let me see him to possess enough intelligence to have created a single planet, let alone the universe!

MaxInDHouse:
This is a flimsy excuse!
I told you what happened but it's obvious you just feel like accusing the Bible God for what the nicest person you can think of would have done.
Go through the world map today and you'll see that the land of Canaan is in the center so that people in the East and those in the West could learn from them the standard God set.
The whole earth belongs to this God and choosing a portion to establish His worship can't be ruled out so after sending a warning signal to all the inhabitants of Canaan whoever dares Him is ready to die.
Of course people back then only obey the God whose worshipers are the mightiest army therefore what made the inhabitants of Canaan back then think they can stop the Almighty God and His worshipers?

Well, according to what is recorded in the bible, the reason why god promised the land of Canaan to the Israelites is NOT because it's in the center of anything (you're the one making this up!), it was simply because it was a land flowing with milk and honey .
According to the bible, his "worshippers" were slaves in Egypt for many decades before they miraculously escape one day. Why do you think this is sufficient to make the other nation fear him and abandon their lands (which they have been living in for centuries) for his people ? A god that his own people often rebel against!

PulsingPurple:
Hello sir, good evening...

I don't know if it's just me, but today's response looks soo long. Maybe my brain is having a slow day, taking too much time to read through. 😅

I just thought to pause everything and commend you.

There's a feeling you get when you taste good food after eating something you didn't even realise was bad for a long time.

There's a feeling you get when you see people talk like simple logical humans online after being used to erratic conversations (I know I'm also guilty of cause these erratic conversations in the first place, I hope I never go back there).

Trust you're doing well?



Yes that was the thought.

And yhh, from the normal physical word's perspective, the truth about God should fall into this category.
But then for people who believe in the supernatural, obviously the truth has to be exactly what the Supreme Being says it is.
So to me, the truth is whatever God says it is.
Then we'd still have the liberty of believing (more like accepting to believe) something else.
So still Objective Truth and Personal Belief, but this time around there's a fixed standard for determining the objective truth.



Of what benefit would this conversation be if I don't attempt to address some of the my thoughts on these:
All my opinions here.

1. I think playing the role of a judge comes with the task of deep research. Researching to understand.
A judge would have to understand so many things like personality, backstory, reason, details... Stuff like that.
Some people do love to ask why God allows bad things go unpunished, then proceed to do bad things, and then also proceed to ask God why He punishes them... I think that's one thing you can think about.

After looking into the personality of God, there's some consistent behavioural patterns/character you can start to see.
For instance storytelling, mystery, repeated symbolism, surprise... Stuff like that.
Liberty of choice, after explaining the exact consequences of each.

I think there's a lot to understand before judging.

Then after everything, what is life?
What if He takes life only when He knows the rest of it will be meaningless to Him and to the owner, to be restored back at a time where it will be way more meaningful and full of second chances?

Thought: Does an actual father often take away the lives of their children when they start over abusing it or when he's protecting them from something, etc.? Like restricting the social life of a child who's a nuisance to society, or when there's nuisance out in the society.

Yhh I understand some of the reasons may seem (barbaric), but times change, different generations see different things differently.

2. I won't even go into the details but from the same Scriptures you were exposed to, I've read, concluded and found groups of people who've concluded that that idea is false to large extents.
The vivid picture of hell that's been painted by the church for decades now is not even in the Scriptures. Plenty of those things were conclusions drawn from ancient Greek and Roman mythology. We could dive in, or you could take these cues to do a little research.
The Bible just shows many rough sketches of what judgement would look like and the original words used in the Bible doesn't even translate to the definitions of hell we have now. And just like with plenty other things, there's much symbolic representation of things, doesn't necessarily have to be a literal interpretation.

The summary of what I believe about life, death and judgement as a whole is this:
• God is a just, impartial judge. Whatever you can imagine, that properly counts as unfair treatment or impartiality, God will likely not do that.
• Men do evil, became evil by nature, know the moral status of a majority of their actions.
• God sees the heart, motive behind the actions of every man.
• God eventually rewards every right action appropriately, condemns for every wrong action appropriately.
• This as you'd expect happens after giving everyone a chance to correct their mistakes here.

At the end of the day a just Judge will sentence you to whatever punishment you rightly deserve for your action, after considering motive, influence, disposition (like remorse).

And if God is a just Judge, there's no burning in hell forever for some basic set of wrongdoings. Unless of course there's certain sins that might require that. (Which I really really doubt).

3. Well, I think intelligence and compassion like many other things will be relative. What seems intelligent to you might not seem intelligent enough to someone twice as wise. I get it though, I do ask the exact same questions at times, in other ways.
But I've given things you can reflect on that covers that aspect in the other responses.


Ohhhh I see. Fair point.

Just like white light giving off a whole spectrum of colours that seemed like they weren't there before, if you're familiar with those parts of physics.

But don't you think this Energy has to somehow have a mechanism for choosing what to dispense from itself, and how to change form to give off such elaborately detailed results?
One of the only ways energy can be out to use is when it's "harnessed" so?? Shouldn't there be something harnessing this Eternal Infinite Energy? Whether in itself of independent of itself.

Meanwhile have you heard of the word Yahweh and the concept behind it? The struggle with understanding the original words that translated into it...

The word is what the Biblical God was said to give as His name.
After many people struggled with understanding it and how it should be translated, some people stood to agree that God said something like, "I AM" to Moses in a complex way that makes it sound like "I am that which I am/that which I will be".

Again, gives the same energy as your Eternal Infinite Energy just casually existing, becoming other things.


I don't know... The point is seen but still doesn't seem to work well as a point to me.
You're still saying God having a personality would invalidate his God-ness but I still think the fact that the creation and the creator seem to possess the possibility of doesn't necessarily mean anything bad for the creator, just part of the whole mirroring stuff.
Can't really place my head around it so I'll leave it there.

But what if it's the emotions along with independent logic and all that that makes up sentience? So God being God has all that in order to be sentient. Then mirrors all those characteristics into us in order for us to be sentient as well?

And you know every emotion has its own use. The issue would be when emotions can't be controlled, are used wrongly.

Then again, being subject to external influences (not control) isn't necessary bad right?
As a creator I can make a dish that gives me pleasure when I eat it, without it taking away my superiority by claiming it controls me, right?

For the idea of good and bad, I was just trying to compose a thought when I realised all I was saying was an interpretation of something called Divine Command Theory. Looking it up will pass the thought better than I ever could.

But yhh, that'll only apply to people who already believe in the first place.


Actually the thought makes a lot of sense. I've taken it with me already, adding it as another layer of understanding.

And yhh humans by nature are curious beings. Then also sometimes they just feign curiosity to mask other agendas... 😏


Yhh that was the precise point. And yes the reverse is also true, the argument goes both ways unfortunately...


Exactly, we can't see the purpose. 😅
So then what better explanation do we have given the extent of intent, complexity and attention to detail, than to say we're just test-runs of some sort of project, or some pleasure project? Or the answer is beyond our realm, in the hands of some sort of creator...


What can I say?
We hold similar beliefs on some of these things.

Also looks easy to understand why you'd think in some of these ways.


Ahh!! What better way to surprise me? 😂
It's mixed feelings honestly...


Ohh, bold statements.
At least you know in detail what you stand for: Not Atheism per se, not anti-Christianity, just something logical.

Back then I used to say actual Christianity shouldn't be called a religion. At its basic form, just do whatever is right and you're good to go. Denomination-based doctrines spoilt things for us.


I'm somehow betting that if there was a book with clear instructions and explanations (there are), people will still twist it. 😅
Takes us back to the gender talk and truth being a personal stuff... Who decides what's a woman and why/how did people leave the hard scientific facts to convince themselves of other stuff?

It'll also be the whole idea of humans just chasing dust... Leaving the instructions and explanations that are obvious and straightforward and looking for meaning in between lines of letters that were casually written without the intention of it being included as part of a Bible.

Thirdly, according to the Scriptures, the God I believe in kinda just loves speaking in riddles and mystery—parables. If He's actually God and that's His own nature, who are we to complain?
According to Scriptures too, humans by nature are somehow referred to as inquisitive.
So wouldn't it make sense that we complement each other? A mysterious God and His inquisitive creation, Him leaving clues, us digging them out. Maybe that's part of His definition of "pleasure".

Whatever the case sha, the perceived damage seems to be done and I can see why you say so

Good evening bro.
I'm not sure I have any important comment to make on your reply at this time. But it's been nice having this conversation with you 🤗 🤝.
Wishing you all the best in your worldly and spiritual journey 🙏

AlbertNewton:
How many Muslims do you know that have converted from Islam to JW? And doesn't Islam itself have answers to the questions you listed up there?

Millions among JWs today are from Islam because we don't believe Jesus is God but a servant of God that alone gave JWs and Muslims a common ground.
I can bet it that no Muslim can answer those questions without telling you things that doesn't add up yet claiming you shouldn't question their Allah for whatever he does!

AlbertNewton:
To the best of my knowledge, converting from Islam to JW is rare, and that is why I'm interested in hearing about your conversion story ?
Did you make findings about all the available Christian denominations and decided JW is the best ? I believe you can see the reason for my curiosity.

No single Muslim with a sincere heart can listen to JWs without converting because there are three things Muslims hold against the churches of Christendom:
There is only one God not Three in one.
Jesus is a prophet not God.
God doesn't allow women to lead men in worship.
Churches only spew what their pastors told them so if you ask them thought provoking questions they get provoked as you can see for yourself on this very thread.

AlbertNewton:
So essentially you're saying that if I'm not a JW member (nor a Christian) and I don't even worship God , I can still make "heaven" as long as I live "righteously" ?
How do you interpret John 14:6 ?

I myself i'm not going to heaven forget this misconception it's everlasting life on planet earth that God promised righteous people. From the moment you discovered that there is a group doing what benefits all races whatever makes you speak against them means you need not another opportunity which will be given to people who lived by conscience.
So your judgement starts from the moment you know the difference between truth and falsehood if you refused to take a stand for truth it means no second chance.
For your information a second chance will be given to people who don't know the difference between falsehood and truth a thousand years after which all evildoers will be destroyed forever.

AlbertNewton:
Don't you think it's a very serious problem if I can only come to understand or learn the truth of the Bible by studying with the "His Witnesses" ? Why should the truth about something so vital be difficult to access?

The Bible is easily accessible to everyone but due to the confusion created by devil and his demons you need God's servants to help you gain insight into the word of God. Billions are claiming Christians yet fighting and killing themselves when Jesus commanded his disciples to have love among themselves! John 13:34-35

AlbertNewton:
Why couldn't an all-powerful god that supposedly created trillions of galaxies (with billions of stars in each galaxy, and tens of planets around each star) simply turn the wilderness to a permanently habitable place for the Israelite rather than having them murder other people to occupy their lands (which were flowing with milk and honey ) ?
Wouldn't converting the wilderness to a fertile land flowing with milk and honey be a more sensible way for god to demonstrate his power ?
And again why was it difficult for this god to make a tiny nation of Israel to obey him ?
Wouldn't it make more sense if god made ALL the people of the world HIS people at the same time rather than choosing a single nation (who he had to threaten to destroy so many times) ?
You see, the stories recorded in the bible about god's actions don't let me see him to possess enough intelligence to have created a single planet, let alone the universe!

I told you already but it seems you aren't reading what i typed!
The land of Canaan is the center where the ancient world could easily notice God's people so it's not about milk and honey but the center of the ancient world!

AlbertNewton:
Well, according to what is recorded in the bible, the reason why god promised the land of Canaan to the Israelites is NOT because it's in the center of anything (you're the one making this up!), it was simply because it was a land flowing with milk and honey .
According to the bible, his "worshippers" were slaves in Egypt for many decades before they miraculously escape one day. Why do you think this is sufficient to make the other nation fear him and abandon their lands (which they have been living in for centuries) for his people ? A god that his own people often rebel against!

This is why i told you that you need to study the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses!
Before Abraham started residing in that place the opposite side of the land was far better as in richer in resources that Canaan! Genesis 13:9-12
So Lot chose better a place than Abraham but God promised to bless Canaan for Abraham much more than the other side that Lot chose! Genesis 13:14-18

MaxInDHouse:
The land of Canaan is the center where the ancient world could easily notice God's people so it's not about milk and honey but the center of the ancient world!

The Levant (Canaan) was not the centre of anything. It was not the centre of a major civilization, it was not the centre of a "world" empire, it did not have a major trading city, etc. It was not the centre of the ancient world.

LordReed:
The Levant (Canaan) was not the centre of anything. It was not the centre of a major civilization, it was not the centre of a "world" empire, it did not have a major trading city, etc. It was not the centre of the ancient world.

Only America was excluded in the map of the ancient world from Europe to Asia people have settled and Canaan was the center back then.
Please check the world map and try to exclude America that Atlantic separated!

MaxInDHouse:
Only America was excluded in the map of the ancient world from Europe to Asia people have settled and Canaan was the center back then.
Please check the world map and try to exclude America that Atlantic separated!

It was not the center of the map either. Attached is an ancient Roman map of the world. Can you see where Canaan was on the map?

LordReed:
It was not the center of the map either. Attached is an ancient Roman map of the world. Can you see where Canaan was on the map?

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=1001070222
When did Rome became the world power?
And when did Abraham started residing in Canaan?
How many centuries is between Abraham's lifetime and Rome's conquest?

LordReed:
It was not the center of the map either. Attached is an ancient Roman map of the world. Can you see where Canaan was on the map?

He doesn't even know that a land bridge existed from Russia to Alaska, and even Antarctica had been there long ago.

Probably will not guess that the only reason the map is like that is simply because it was the Europeans drawing from their point of view.

Canaan is not the centre of the world. The equator has a perfect right to that claim.

MaxInDHouse:
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=1001070222
When did Rome became the world power?
And when did Abraham started residing in Canaan?
How many centuries is between Abraham's lifetime and Rome's conquest?

Canaan is not the centre of the world. Stop it.

DeepSight:
Canaan is not the centre of the world. Stop it.

Ọmọ nah Canaan dey center of the ancient world before people migrated to other parts of the earth when human rulers were dragging for power!

MaxInDHouse:
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=1001070222
When did Rome became the world power?
And when did Abraham started residing in Canaan?
How many centuries is between Abraham's lifetime and Rome's conquest?

LMAO! This is too funny. Was this the whole world minus the Americas? Did Europe and the rest of Asia magically appear later?

Dude get serious.

DeepSight:
He doesn't even know that a land bridge existed from Russia to Alaska, and even Antarctica had been there long ago.

Probably will not guess that the only reason the map is like that is simply because it was the Europeans drawing from their point of view.

Canaan is not the centre of the world. The equator has a perfect right to that claim.

The confident ignorance is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

LordReed:
LMAO! This is too funny. Was this the whole world minus the Americas? Did Europe and the rest of Asia magically appear later? Dude get serious.

You don't believe the Bible yet you want to argue about what is in the Bible.

Please who is not serious here?

The Bible told us that life began in Eden somewhere around Iraq and that people started scattering after God confused their language and that shortly God chose a man (Abraham) and led him to a place where pure worship will be established in the ancient world.
Now i'm saying that place is the center of the ancient world where people from the east and west could know about the deeds of God Almighty and suddenly you appear to argue what you never believed.
If you're no longer satisfied with the likes you were giving your friend behind the scene you're free to join the discussion but that's the truth people has not scattered further than Europe and Asia when God established Israelites in the land of Canaan.
The center!

MaxInDHouse:
You don't believe the Bible yet you want to argue about what is in the Bible.

Please who is not serious here?

The Bible told us that life began in Eden somewhere around Iraq and that people started scattering after God confused their language and that shortly God chose a man (Abraham) and led him to a place where pure worship will be established in the ancient world.
Now i'm saying that place is the center of the ancient world where people from the east and west could know about the deeds of God Almighty and suddenly you appear to argue what you never believed.
If you're no longer satisfied with the likes you were giving your friend behind the scene you're free to join the discussion but that's the truth people has not scattered further than Europe and Asia when God established Israelites in the land of Canaan.
The center!

LMAO! The confident ignorance. The Indian civilization is older than the supposed time of Abraham. Where is it in your map? The Chinese are even older that any timeline of the Bible, where are they in your map? You just say whatever ignorant thing and think you are correct.

LordReed:
LMAO! The confident ignorance. The Indian civilization is older than the supposed time of Abraham. Where is it in your map? The Chinese are even older that any timeline of the Bible, where are they in your map? You just say whatever ignorant thing and think you are correct.

Mention the name of a Chinese or Indian who lived 5,000 years ago his wife, children, grandchildren just as the Bible penned down every detail.
You people swallow lies hook line and sinker just because you don't want to humble yourself before God's word!

MaxInDHouse:
Mention the name of a Chinese or Indian who lived 5,000 years ago his wife, children, grandchildren just as the Bible penned down every detail.
You people swallow lies hook line and sinker just because you don't want to humble yourself before God's word!

Oh now it's no longer about the map it now about some new arbitrary criterion that has nothing to do with whether Canann was the center of anything. You know you've been showed up but you don't what to accept that you are wrong. LoLz.

LordReed:
Oh now it's no longer about the map it now about some new arbitrary criterion that has nothing to do with whether Canann was the center of anything. You know you've been showed up but you don't what to accept that you are wrong. LoLz.

You said:

LordReed:
The Indian civilization is older than the supposed time of Abraham. The Chinese are even older that any timeline of the Bible.

So you shouldn't just make an assertion without proving it nah!
At least you need to mention the name of an Indian or Chinese who lived before the timeline of the Bible, his wife or husband and children whose descendants are traceable today just as the Bible mentioned people and listed the names from Adam! Matthew 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-38

Or you don't think that before claiming Chinese and Indians lived before the time recorded in the Bible!

MaxInDHouse:
You said:



So you shouldn't just make an assertion without proving it nah!
At least you need to mention the name of an Indian or Chinese who lived before the timeline of the Bible, his wife or husband and children whose descendants are traceable today just as the Bible mentioned people and listed the names from Adam! Matthew 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-38

Or you don't think that before claiming Chinese and Indians lived before the time recorded in the Bible!

We are talking of people groups on a map and you are talking about genealogy how is that equivalent? We have evidence people were living in the Indian subcontinent 100s of years before the purported time of Abraham and we have evidence that people were living in the Chinese subcontinent 1000s of years before that so your claim that everything was centred around Canaan is ignorant.

Did the people in India and China just magically appear there?

LordReed:
We are talking of people groups on a map and you are talking about genealogy how is that equivalent?

God secured Canaan for His people for all other nations in the East and West to learn from them and back them Canaan was the center as in the middle but you want to argue that it wasn't that's what led to the question.
Please answer the question if you're sure that Canaan isn't the center of ancient world!

LordReed:
We have evidence people were living in the Indian subcontinent 100s of years before the purported time of Abraham

The only evidence you can have is false stories but if you want to prove that you truly have evidence then mention the name of just one Indian or Chinese who lived before Bible date his or her spouse, children and grandchildren that can be traced to our time after all the Bible did just that!

MaxInDHouse:
God secured Canaan for His people for all other nations in the East and West to learn from them and back them Canaan was the center as in the middle but you want to argue that it wasn't that's what led to the question.
Please answer the question if you're sure that Canaan isn't the center of ancient world!

Answer what question?

The only evidence you can have is false stories but if you want to prove that you truly have evidence then mention the name of just one Indian or Chinese who lived before Bible date his or her spouse, children and grandchildren that can be traced to our time after all the Bible did just that!

LoLz. You are the one with false stories. A fake genealogy is not evidence except evidence of your gullibility. Even Israelis are finding out that that narrative is not true.

Besides a genealogy is not proof of anything. It is like claiming that because I know my grandfather therefore I am a US citizen. That's nonsense which is exactly what you are saying.

Atheism is deceiving you!
Perhaps you don't know i will enlighten you.
Before you can claim that you are from a place as in ancestral background you should be able to name at least your father, grandfather and great-grandfather who lived as inhabitants of that place you claim.
So if Chinese and Indians can't mention the names of their ancestors who lived before Bible times then they lied to you!

LordReed:
Answer what question?
LoLz. You are the one with false stories. A fake genealogy is not evidence except evidence of your gullibility. Even Israelis are finding out that that narrative is not true. Besides a genealogy is not proof of anything. It is like claiming that because I know my grandfather therefore I am a US citizen. That's nonsense which is exactly what you are saying.

MaxInDHouse:
Atheism is deceiving you!
Perhaps you don't know i will enlighten you.
Before you can claim that you are from a place as in ancestral background you should be able to name at least your father, grandfather and great-grandfather who lived as inhabitants of that place you claim.
So if Chinese and Indians can't mention the names of their ancestors who lived before Bible times then they lied to you!

JW is deceiving you!

Once again get it through your head that a fake genealogy proves nothing. We know the Chinese were there not because they gave us a fake story of how their god told their ancestors to kill their sons but because we found evidence. Actually evidence beats storybook everytime.

LordReed:
JW is deceiving you!
Once again get it through your head that a fake genealogy proves nothing. We know the Chinese were there not because they gave us a fake story of how their god told their ancestors to kill their sons but because we found evidence. Actually evidence beats storybook everytime.

Ọmọ there is no evidence jọọ you're just crying as an atheist looking for means to run away from reality!

MaxInDHouse:
Atheism is deceiving you!
Perhaps you don't know i will enlighten you.
Before you can claim that you are from a place as in ancestral background you should be able to name at least your father, grandfather and great-grandfather who lived as inhabitants of that place you claim.
So if Chinese and Indians can't mention the names of their ancestors who lived before Bible times then they lied to you!

What does this have to do with a place being the centre of the world.
Chines and Indians have literature and records of many thousands of years.

Great monuments existed in many places waaaay beyond the Abrahamic / European worlds long before the time of Abraham.

There are inexplicable cities even sunk at the bottom of the sea, by America and by Japan.

DeepSight:
What does this have to do with a place being the centre of the world.
Chines and Indians have literature and records of many thousands of years.
Great monuments existed in many places waaaay beyond the Abrahamic / European worlds long before the time of Abraham.
There are inexplicable cities even sunk at the bottom of the sea, by America and by Japan.

Ọmọ let them name people who lived back then nah!

Abi how can they tell stories but can't name the people as in the genealogy so we can know they're not lying?