₦airaland Forum

HeadBoy9:
Now looks to me like you're arriving somewhere right now. This is the Almighty we're talking about who made the world, times, futures, and all. Why even create a world where sin was a possiblilty and then have the need to have a back up plan?

He created the world without sin but he knew man would eventually fall because he lives in the flesh. He planned on harvesting children with His attributes but because he knew man would eventually fall, he created a backup plan to fulfill His purpose for mankind.

MeetDx:
He created the world without sin but he knew man would eventually fall because he lives in the flesh. He planned on harvesting children with His attributes but because he knew man would eventually fall, he created a backup plan to fulfill His purpose for mankind.

If he didn't create "sin" then who did? I'm thinking of sin as such elements as water, light, darkness, sand, air, etc. Just one intangible reality in this world of God's, who else can make anything other than him? Satan?

HeadBoy9:
God to have you here Gammarays

I'm responding to items 3 and 4

3. This is the ALMIGHTY that holds times and realities in himself so I would think he knows every future since he designed them. It's not like this is our averege futures forecaster or something. He knows the end from the beginning, ya know? You can't be implying God's decisions are reactionary like him sending Jesus to die for sin was an emergency rescue mission initiated in response to the fall.

4. Talking about abilities, we both agree that God made man and gave man abilities and qualities. What stops one from saying the qualities of being dishonourable and to lack discipline are Esau's gifts, as divinely ordained, and that the events of his life were his divine future as made, known, and ordained by the ALMIGHTY?

No 3: If plan A fails, Plan B will be put in place just like we humans do. Jesus Christ redeemed mankind because Adam plan A failed

No 4: I never said lack of discipline or dishonour was a divine gift given to Esau. God doesn't give bad gifts. You earlier pointed out man has a freewill. Esau had the will to either be disciplined or honest and that would have changed the future outcome. There are instances where men through decisions changed outcomes.

As for the case of Judas, he was labelled as a thief even before he betrayed the master. So the enemy saw him a fertile ground to use to actualise a decree. Whatever decrees made in the spirit realm must be accomplished on earth not just because it's a decree but by decisions of human good or bad.

For God's decree of redeeming Israel from Egypt, Moses was the man suited for the purpose and made himself available so he was utilized. If he had refused, the task would have been passed on to the next individual till it's accomplished. Same scenario with David, Jacob, Judas, Esau and co that's why I said good or bad.

gammarays:
No 3: If plan A fails, Plan B will be put in place just like we humans do. Jesus Christ redeemed mankind because Adam plan A failed

No 4: I never said lack of discipline or dishonour was a divine gift given to Esau. God doesn't give bad gifts. You earlier pointed out man has a freewill. Esau had the will to either be disciplined or honest and that would have changed the future outcome. There are instances where men through decisions changed outcomes.

As for the case of Judas, he was labelled as a thief even before he betrayed the master. So the enemy saw him a fertile ground to use to actualise a decree. Whatever decrees made in the spirit realm must be accomplished on earth not just because it's a decree but by decisions of human good or bad.

For God's decree of redeeming Israel from Egypt, Moses was the man suited for the purpose and made himself available so he was utilized. If he had refused, the task would have been passed on to the next individual till it's accomplished. Same scenario with David, Jacob, Judas, Esau and co that's why I said good or bad.

This makes sense

Though every bad gift is just the opposite of the good. Like a coin with two sides. Tree of knowledge of good and bad kind of.

HeadBoy9:
If he didn't create "sin" then who did? I'm thinking of sin as such elements as water, light, darkness, sand, air, etc. Just one intangible reality and this world of God's, who else can make anything other than him? Satan?

All I can say from the Bible verses I have studied is that God's judgements are truth and righteous for the just and unjust alike. He pays every man in their own coin according to their works

HeadBoy9:
This makes sense

Though every bad gift is just the opposite of the good. Like a coin with two sides. Tree of knowledge of good and bad kind of.

You're correct just that I'll point out that what you call bad gifts are good gifts used negatively. A gift in its real version is good and meant to be used positively. It becomes bad when it's corrupted for bad

HeadBoy9:
If he didn't create "sin" then who did? I'm thinking of sin as such elements as water, light, darkness, sand, air, etc. Just one intangible reality in this world of God's, who else can make anything other than him? Satan?

I have given you biblical references to these questions, kindly read through and get back to me. The Bibles says He created everything for a purpose, even an evil man for the day of war ( Proverbs 16:4, Isaiah 45:7). Even Isaiah 46:10, Ephesians 1:4 supports this notion

gammarays:
You're correct just that I'll point out that what you call bad gifts are good gifts used negatively. A gift in its real version is good and meant to be used positively. It becomes bad when it's corrupted for bad

Lack of discipline and reverence is a misuse of choice then

MeetDx:
I have given you biblical references to these questions, kindly read through and get back to me. The Bibles says He created everything for a purpose, even an evil man for the day of war ( Proverbs 16:4, Isaiah 45:7). Even Isaiah 46:10, Ephesians 1:4 supports this notion

Thank you

HeadBoy9:
Another phrase for it is divinely fixed outcomes

I don't understand! I thought you rejected destiny/preordained stuff?

MeetDx:
The Lord decares the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), there is no such thing as "freewill". He created all things for His purpose and His counsel shall stand (Isaiah 45:7, Proverbs 16:4). Predestination, Election of Grace too - Ephesians 1:4, Exodus 7:3-4, 9:12)

If there was no such thing as freewill then why did He tell sinners "go and sin no more"?

Or "I lay before you life and death, choose life"?

Dtruthspeaker:
I don't understand! I thought you rejected destiny/preordained stuff?

My position is clear on that. Just supplying an alternative way of saying the same thing I rejected.

Any argument you see me put up that seems to be in its favor is merely exploratory and meant to, at the end, reveal the implausiblity of divinely fixed outcomes.

HeadBoy9:
My position is clear on that. Just supplying an alternative way of saying the same thing I rejected.

Any argument you see me put up that seems to be in its favor is merely exploratory and meant to, at the end, reveal the implausiblity of divinely fixed outcomes.

Ok.

I see some destiny/preordained people talking here. Let me go and put them in order

HeadBoy9:
That's a good way to look at it.

Though I believe someone else would've betrayed Christ if Judas didn't. Didn't necessarily have to be him.

The way Samson ended his career was not anywhere stated in his destined manifesto yet it was what it was. He ended outside divine plan...

Exactly

Dtruthspeaker:
If there was no such thing as freewill then why did He tell sinners "go and sin no more"?

Or "I lay before you life and death, choose life"?

It's just to serve as a witness that you were told to choose life but God already knows the end from the beginning. Why do you think God hardened Pharaoh's heart to do his will? Exodus 7:3-4 and 9:13? Even the new testament teaches the same thing... Read 2 Thessalonians 2:11

He will send them a strong delusion to believe a lie.

DMCY:
Yes but still why the hatred and shame towards Esau and Judas ?

That is why you should look very deep to find it.

Esau's own is that God raised up 2 Nations, and if you remember The Law is 2 is better than 1/testimony of 2 witnesses. But now Esau reduced it to 1 and now, we have those Sat's children creating doubts.

Then, for Judas, he partook and orchestrated in the murder of God, how would it not be over terrible for this 2?

Dtruthspeaker:
Ok.

I see some destiny/preordained people talking here. Let me go and put them in order

What they don't understand is that their line of argument (predeterminism) tells badly on God. He isn't so much God anymore and he's effectively made unfair and his judgements unjust.

MeetDx:
It's just to serve as a witness that you were told to choose life but God already knows the end from the beginning. Why do you think God hardened Pharaoh's heart to do his will? Exodus 7:3-4 and 9:13? Even the new testament teaches the same thing... Read 2 Thessalonians 2:11

He will send them a strong delusion to believe a lie.

The version of God you're trying to build here sounds very evil and villainous. Sort of like a wicked entity that booby-traps people into error so he can derive pleasure from punishing them for it.

I make bold to say, that the Lord God Almighty, the father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is a good God. No unrighteousness or evil with him.

MeetDx:
It's just to serve as a witness that you were told to choose life but God already knows the end from the beginning. Why do you think God hardened Pharaoh's heart to do his will? Exodus 7:3-4 and 9:13? Even the new testament teaches the same thing... Read 2 Thessalonians 2:11

He will send them a strong delusion to believe a lie.

Do you tell your car or phone or mannequin that it should not walk into fire?

You even tell animals aka pets, and you see them obey and disobey, is it now human beings?

If it were so then why do you punish your children for stealing and other wrong doings?

And can you count how many times you have screamed on them to do the right thing?

Please stop deceiving yourself.

Who does not know that the end of a thief is disgrace, prison or death?

And on Pharoah how many times have you said "I will deal with you even if you say sorry? If sorry would stop you, would you allow the person to say sorry? And of course, did Pharoah hear sorry and abeg when he was making Isreal cry blood?

This is where you see that Truly God Honours His Law and an eye will be for an eye which the new testament still warned you saying a good tree beareth a good fruit.

HeadBoy9:
What they don't understand is that their line of argument (predeterminism) tells badly on God. He isn't so much God anymore and he's effectively made unfair and his judgements unjust.

An evil eye will only see evil. And the evil can never see or understand God and His Ways

HeadBoy9:
The version of God you're trying to build here sounds very evil and villainous. Sort of like a wicked entity that booby-traps people into error so he can derive pleasure from punishing them for it.

I make bold to say, that the Lord God Almighty, the father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is a good God. No unrighteousness or evil with him.

Proverbs 17:20
He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief.

gammarays:
This is my own little understanding
God is a Spirit in fact the Head of Spirits so sees ahead of time. He knows what will happen and plans ahead of it.
Esau, Reuben, Judas will be bad options to handle those important roles. Also they contributed to whatever happened to them.
It's a deep discussion if we're to go further.
God values obedience to him than positions so will allocate roles to whomever will play by His books. He can elevate a nobody that values Him over anyone that's so called fit. Example David and his brothers.

You people always think that foreknowledge only happens on one side whereas there is also foreknowledge that this people could have done His Will.

Eg do you not already foreknow that your child can fall exams? But on the other hand do you not already also know that that same child can and will pass it?

And in all of this people's activities do you not see them deciding to do as they have willed and purposed?

Like in David did you not hear him say "I set my heart to know thy Law?" That is he chose to set his heart..

Please stop letting all those predestination shi be logs in your eyes

danvon:
You will never understand the Bible properly unless you separate the old testament from the new testament.

They are two separate Gods with some similarities

Wrong. The old and the new are the same. If you think otherwise, then raise any law you think that is not anywhere

gammarays:
1. David had a good background as a shepherd that prepared him for the kingship role

2. God is Merciful and Just. The freewill given to Man doesn't mean he should live his life anyhow. Any Man who breaks even societal laws will face the consequences even though Man is free in quote. There's freedom and there's law and order.

3. If you know what is to happen in future and can make choices, you'll take decisions that'll favour you. God knows the future of every human ahead of time and takes His decisions accordingly. He's not unfair just as you're not unfair by taking a good decision that'll affect your future...

King Saul to was the same, yet we saw how he wakad

Dtruthspeaker:
Wrong. The old and the new are the same. If you think otherwise, then raise any law you think that is not anywhere

Man I like you already!

HeadBoy9:
Man I like you already!

This might be because we are on the same page here. But, maybe if you go through my threads you might get angry.

Dtruthspeaker:
This might be because we are on the same page here. But, maybe if you go through my threads you might get angry.

Well, I forgive you ahead of time. Just glad about your understanding of fundamentals.

Recommend any of your threads I should start from

HeadBoy9:
The version of God you're trying to build here sounds very evil and villainous. Sort of like a wicked entity that booby-traps people into error so he can derive pleasure from punishing them for it.

I make bold to say, that the Lord God Almighty, the father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is a good God. No unrighteousness or evil with him.

So it's safe to say the Bible is erroneous in saying what it says in Isaiah 45:7 and also Proverbs 16 4 right? And I never mentioned anywhere in my post that God is unjust or evil. He is a righteous God, His judgement goes for the Just and Unjust alike. How do you expect a righteous God to reward you with good when you practice evil?

What a man soweth that he shall reap. So let the wicked be wicked still and the righteous continue in their righteousness in the end every will reap what he sows. So what's wrong with my explanation?

Dtruthspeaker:
Do you tell your car or phone or mannequin that it should not walk into fire?

You even tell animals aka pets, and you see them obey and disobey, is it now human beings?

If it were so then why do you punish your children for stealing and other wrong doings?

And can you count how many times you have screamed on them to do the right thing?

Please stop deceiving yourself.

Who does not know that the end of a thief is disgrace, prison or death?

And on Pharoah how many times have you said "I will deal with you even if you say sorry? If sorry would stop you, would you allow the person to say sorry? And of course, did Pharoah hear sorry and abeg when he was making Isreal cry blood?

This is where you see that Truly God Honours His Law and an eye will be for an eye which the new testament still warned you saying a good tree beareth a good fruit.

So it's safe to say the Bible is erroneous in saying what it says in Isaiah 45:7 and also Proverbs 16 4 right? And I never mentioned anywhere in my post that God is unjust or evil. He is a righteous God, His judgement goes for the Just and Unjust alike. How do you expect a righteous God to reward you with good when you practice evil?

What a man soweth that he shall reap. So let the wicked be wicked still and the righteous continue in their righteousness in the end every will reap what they sow. So what's wrong with my explanation?

HeadBoy9:
Well, I forgive you ahead of time. Just glad about your understanding of fundamentals.

Recommend any of your threads I should start from

Thank you. But you are the one who knows what things interest you.

https://www.nairaland.com/8281391/god-thing-first-there-always

https://www.nairaland.com/7790701/judaism-not-what-moses-gave

https://www.nairaland.com/7947204/truly-forbidden-fruit-sex

https://www.nairaland.com/7929942/math-7-16-shows-us

https://www.nairaland.com/8238054/polygamy-jews-stopped-polygaming-after

https://www.nairaland.com/8305216/see-why-god-hates-women

https://www.nairaland.com/6319053/when-eve-charged-court-charges#97161190

MeetDx:
So it's safe to say the Bible is erroneous in saying what it says in Isaiah 45:7 and also Proverbs 16 4 right?

I knew you will move post to Isaiah 45 as you have not asked yourself what is wrong in creating evil. Going by God's Laws, what thing will deal with evil if it is not evil itself! Is it a baby you would send to deal with Boko haram or is it a killer?

MeetDx:
And I never mentioned anywhere in my post that God is unjust or evil. He is a righteous God, His judgement goes for the Just and Unjust alike. How do you expect a righteous God to reward you with good when you practice evil?

What a man soweth that he shall reap. So let the wicked be wicked still and the righteous continue in their righteousness in the end every will reap what they sow. So what's wrong with my explanation?

Like the op told you, you are saying God is unjust and bad because of your fallty thinking as proven by your words.

And you must think this way because you have not dug deep to understand God and His Ways

MeetDx:
So it's safe to say the Bible is erroneous in saying what it says in Isaiah 45:7 and also Proverbs 16 4 right? And I never mentioned anywhere in my post that God is unjust or evil. He is a righteous God, His judgement goes for the Just and Unjust alike. How do you expect a righteous God to reward you with good when you practice evil?

What a man soweth that he shall reap. So let the wicked be wicked still and the righteous continue in their righteousness in the end every will reap what he sows. So what's wrong with my explanation?

The Bible is a product of a partnership between God and man. The authors were 💯 men and therefore brought their human-ness to bear on whatever message they were inspired to communicate. Sometimes it's their biases, at other times, misrepresentations. It's even possible some moulded divine communication to align with their ideals...and not what God said.

Take the great prophet, Moses, for instance. He saw the origin of creation and set the foundations of godliness. Yet this man missed it in many places.

Jesus had a field day trying to undo the mess Moses made. Divorce was never in God's will but Moses gave it as a law. The law of an eye for an eye blood for blood as well. Likewise the laws on slavery which thing has never been morally right were given and passed as the laws of God. And so many other things.

Look at the texts below to understand what I'm saying:

Matthew 19:8 KJV
[8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Mark 7:7-8 KJV
[7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Men bend the laws of God to conform with the traditions of men (e.g slavery, divorce, capital punishment, etc). Even God accommodates the ways of men (and sort of adopts them) and give laws concerning them to help manage a community of peoples.

Mind you, that God, through his prophets legislate on these things don't necessarily mean they're right. It reveals the accommodations of God and his understanding of humanity and human society.

He knows it takes time to change cultures and traditions so he accommodates them initially, legislates on them, but at the same time initiates a long-term plan of teaching the people and gradually phasing out and replacing those ungodly ways.

So that something is in the Bible or written by a prophet doesn't automatically mean it's morally right or righteous, it's just what was said for that time, people, their cultures and traditions.

As Paul puts it, the law was their guardian until the maturation of things

Galatians 3:23-24 KJV
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The authors of scriptures were men living in the world and engaging with the world around them. When God came to Israel, he met them set in their ways already. So what he did was work with what was already available. And what was available wasn't necessarily morally right or just but God worked with them all the same towards an end.

That it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's right