₦airaland Forum

FreeIgboho:
Ok, let's unpack this the way it actually is. God knew or has this as part of his plan before the foundation of the world. Same God gave him his personality, circumstances, and brain. You really think if this were canceled it's NOT because God intended it to be canceled from the beginning of time?
It's amazing how simplistic we are!

No

Acts 22:17-19 NIV
[17] “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance [18] and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’ [19] “ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.

Paul was warned but he didn't listen and was caught. In verses 21:4 he was warned. Are you saying the warnings were useless since God has already planned that he should be caught?

DeepSight:
There are several yardsticks.
Deal with this first.

Constraints are the same as a handcuff or a jail.

My ai friend didn't allow my previous reply to go through. Hopefully this one does👀.

What you outlined is insufficient, it doesn't have to be like this, that's special pleading. I have given a general remark that encapsulates whatsoever special instance you had hoped to use to refute my stance.

You have to prove to me, that the remaining set of systems are not free! Which is something you and your colleague have not done. I didn't ask redundundant questions such as the ones you had outlined earlier.

You have to prove to me, that anything apart from these complex systems, physical constraints, is not emanant from your being!

Imagine, a universal set of choices from there you have to show me that the set of choices excluding the ones limited by physical constraints are not yours.

.

FreeIgboho:
Why DOES God allow evil? (Since you know 4 sure!)
The question you were asked was: wasn't God aware his servant was in danger, so why must there be all those multitude of prayers?

Of course, God is aware but prayer is the way appointed unto men. How this helps your cause is rather baffling? 🤔

What do you hope to achieve from this to diminish free will? 😅 estrictamente, this doesn't help your argument!

Gabrielshow24:
My ai friend didn't allow my previous reply to go through. Hopefully this one does👀.

What you outlined is insufficient, it doesn't have to be like this, that's special pleading. I have given a general remark that encapsulates whatsoever special instance you had hoped to use to refute my stance.

You have to prove to me, that the remaining set of systems are not free! Which is something you and your colleague have not done. I didn't ask redundundant questions such as the ones you had outlined earlier.

You have to prove to me, that anything apart from these complex systems, physical constraints, is not emanant from your being!

Imagine, a universal set of choices from there you have to show me that the set of choices excluding the ones limited by physical constraints are not yours.

You are being escapist.
Constraints literally mean restriction.
Period.

DeepSight:
You are being escapist.
Constraints literally mean restriction.
Period.

🤔I am not biased. I don't cut off an independent part of a solution just because I prefer another, and it doesn't agree with me! I reconcile both aspects of things and if you insist you don't have free will then you are deceiving yourself viz a viz! It's a coexisting system, if you and your colleague can't see it for what it is, then I am afraid I can't help you!

In summary, apart from the constraints of these systems, we all have free will👀. None of them can prove otherwise!

Gabrielshow24:
🤔I am not biased. I don't cut off an independent part of a solution just because I prefer another, and it doesn't agree with me! I reconcile both aspects of things and if you insist you don't have free will then you are deceiving yourself viz a viz! It's a coexisting system, if you and your colleague can't see it for what it is, then I am afraid I can't help you!

In summary, apart from the constraints of these systems, we all have free will👀. None of them can prove otherwise!

I have not insisted I dont have it, but its philosophically a conundrum. Besides I dont believe in the normal description of an omniscient God.
Freewill with punishments is also not freewill.

Many factors, such as genetics and circumstances make freewill unlikely.

Heck even diseases are inherited.

DeepSight:
I have not insisted I dont have it, but its philosophically a conundrum. Besides I dont believe in the normal description of an omniscient God.
Freewill with punishments is also not freewill.

Many factors, such as genetics and circumstances make freewill unlikely.

Heck even diseases are inherited.

What description do you believe in? 🤔
I will take the rest as moot, for they are part of a complex interrelationship between actors and npcs objects.

Gabrielshow24:
What description do you believe in? 🤔
I will take the rest as moot, for they are part of a complex interrelationship between actors and npcs objects.

This just a cop out.
God is unknowable.

You also cant tell a person born paralyzed that he has freewill to run.

DeepSight:
This just a cop out.
God is unknowable.

You also cant tell a person born paralyzed that he has freewill to run.

😂😂😂With his constraints, he can't 🤕. God must liberate him from such.

We can only relate with him based on the frameworks we were given! Sometimes I envision myself chilling with God instead of this holey nation, I was given to🤦🏾‍♂️. I was born where I was not needed with the people content with their smarmy leaders!

Gabrielshow24:
Of course, God is aware but prayer is the way appointed unto men. How this helps your cause is rather baffling? 🤔

What do you hope to achieve from this to diminish free will? 😅 estrictamente, this doesn't help your argument!

We'er just having an intellectual discussion. We have involuntarily established that free will does not exist. And you're right, it doesn't help our cause at all, but facts are facts.
You were asked why God knowingly let something happen and you say prayers are appointed to men. Does that make sense to you?

FreeIgboho:
We'er just having an intellectual discussion. We have involuntarily established that free will does not exist. And you're right, it doesn't help our cause at all, but facts are facts.
You were asked why God knowingly let something happen and you say prayers are appointed to men. Does that make sense to you?

This is false, the question I replied to wasn't this! Irrespective, we didn't involuntarily establish that free will doesn't exist! 🤔 All these pontificating statements don't do your stance any good! It just shows you are impervious to reason.

If not, how then will you say such? When it's very evident — Your posts are extrinsic evidence of such subset of choices that free will encapsulates!

Gabrielshow24:
My God, why are you this befuddled? Scientists have dropped such mindsets about the brain into ... —can't exactly use the term I want because of the constraints 😅of a fellow, you can substitute any befitting term based on the context!

The new scientific model sees the brain as a pattern matching automated system, it's the basis for A.I.—I need not say much your analogy is insufficient as A.I. agents have intrinsic factors of internalization that produce a response!

Your brain is not a pseudo programmed computer as you claimed it to be. This is very far fetched!

Forget scientific models, AI and all that. You have your own common sense. Use it!
I think I'll see if anyone else can help, because, frankly, it is NOT right that freewill doesn't exist, but that's where all cogent reasonings lead!

FreeIgboho:
Forget scientific models, AI and all that. You have your own common sense. Use it!
I think I'll see if anyone else can help, because, frankly, it is NOT right that freewill doesn't exist, but that's where all cogent reasonings lead!

What cogent reasoning? 👀 Who and who made such "reasonings"? 🤨

You should have known that such statement will not escape my scrutiny!🧐

Boomark:
No

Acts 22:17-19 NIV
[17] “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance [18] and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’ [19] “ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.

Paul was warned but he didn't listen and was caught. In verses 21:4 he was warned. Are you saying the warnings were useless since God has already planned that he should be caught?

In your honest opinion you reallly think almighty God did not know he'd be caught?? Even a common fortune teller will tell him: "I see you in trouble"

FreeIgboho:
In your honest opinion you reallly think almighty God did not know he'd be caught?? Even a common fortune teller will tell him: "I see you in trouble"

🤦🏾‍♂️ The take home was that he made the choice! How's that hard to understand 🤕?

DeepSight:
This just a cop out.
God is unknowable.

You also cant tell a person born paralyzed that he has freewill to run.

Freewill is not dependent on physical doability. Just like chess we wish (freewill) we could make a certain move but the circumstance physically could have constrained us.

So I think a paralytic still has a freewill to run only that he cannot physically do it. That is why they run in spirit.

DeepSight:
You are being escapist.
Constraints literally mean restriction.
Period.

It's only a physical restriction meanwhile freewill goes beyond the physical.

Which is why slaves in America still felt free even though they were in chains and cuffs.

Folks, please forgive us but we have a serious problem that we hope you can help us resolve. Please observe the scenario below. No matter how we configure it we arrive at the same conclusion: there is no such thing as freewill. This has led us to helplessness, hopelessness, and depression. Please is there ANY WAY we can configure this so there's space for freewill. (Please disregard for now the assumption that God already knows everything you'll ever do - that's story for another day)

Here's the scenario:

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain, personality, circumstances of birth, experiences, etc. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no real power to override them. And even if he could, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long - his thoughts, intentions, and feelings appear from processes within his brain that he's not even aware of talkless of controlling.
Please can you find us space for freewill in all this OR can you please tell us where freewill can come from? Feel free to use AI.
Thanks.



MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx, gabrielshow24
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Ken4Christ, Ohyoudidnt, WeirdAlien, Linaloca7, Explore2xmore, armchairscholar, gohf, TenQ, Steep, Chibuezem

Gabrielshow24:
🤦🏾‍♂️ The take home was that he made the choice! How's that hard to understand 🤕?

What choice? When a street palm reader can categorically tell him he's UNAVOIDABLY in trouble

Gabrielshow24:
What cogent reasoning? 👀 Who and who made such "reasonings"? 🤨

You should have known that such statement will not escape my scrutiny!🧐

Ser the group posting above. Politely show us a way out of the "no freewill" situation

FreeIgboho:
What choice? When a street palm reader can categorically tell him he's UNAVOIDABLY in trouble

Oh, God🤦🏾‍♂️. Back to this, even in spiritual metaphysics, God is the Authority. The enemies will continue to make schemes to bring about their own reality but the actuality of such depends on God's authority! Hence, it doesn't matter whether a palm reader said it's unavoidable due to her own mediums but the highest spiritual being has other unseen and unheard advanced principles.

As knowledgeable as Death is, taking his book along indenting all the ways to die, God still catches him off guard from time to time—That's an higher spiritual being for that matter!

Hence, if God wills to do something there are plethora of advanced principles that will negate such. It was the concurrent wisdom of those in Dalton's time to believe in his theory, but in our present time their knowledge is child's play, now imagine an infinite omniscient God! That's child play! bough👀.

Avoidability is subject to God's ultimate resolve on the matter! It's a coexisting system. So far, you haven't proved that the subset of choices that's encapsulated within free will is not your own👀.

FreeIgboho:
Ser the group posting above. Politely show us a way out of the "no freewill" situation

Group posting above? that's vague. Do you mean to include Deepsight in this? 🤨

Even at that, bandwagon fallacy doesn't affirm the truth. Also, what "no free will" situation?
All your arguments doesn't negate free will, it emphasizes a coexistence of dynamic and static objects, objective and subjective perceptions etc Which is the recurring theme in the universe!

FreeIgboho:
Folks, please forgive us but we have a serious problem that we hope you can help us resolve. Please observe the scenario below. No matter how we configure it we arrive at the same conclusion: there is no such thing as freewill. This has led us to helplessness, hopelessness, and depression. Please is there ANY WAY we can configure this so there's space for freewill. (Please disregard for now the assumption that God already knows everything you'll ever do - that's story for another day)

Here's the scenario:

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain, personality, circumstances of birth, experiences, etc. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no real power to override them. And even if he could, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long - his thoughts, intentions, and feelings appear from processes within his brain that he's not even aware of talkless of controlling.
Please can you find us space for freewill in all this OR can you please tell us where freewill can come from? Feel free to use AI.
Thanks.



MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx, gabrielshow24
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Ken4Christ, Ohyoudidnt, WeirdAlien, Linaloca7, Explore2xmore, armchairscholar, gohf, TenQ, Steep, Chibuezem

All your premise are wrong . We need to address that first.

sonmvayina:
All your premise are wrong . We need to address that first.

Please go ahead. I really hate tending towards nihilism

Gabrielshow24:
Group posting above? that's vague. Do you mean to include Deepsight in this? 🤨

Even at that, bandwagon fallacy doesn't affirm the truth. Also, what "no free will" situation?
All your arguments doesn't negate free will, it emphasizes a coexistence of dynamic and static objects, objective and subjective perceptions etc Which is the recurring theme in the universe!

Please tell me EXACTLY where freewill will come from. I really hate tending towards nihilism.
In order words if you've been given the same exact brain, circumstances, and experiences as a criminal where will the freewill for you not to be a criminal come from?

FreeIgboho:
Please tell me EXACTLY where freewill will come from. I really hate tending towards nihilism.
In order words if you've been given the same exact brain, circumstances, and experiences as a criminal where will the freewill for you not to be a criminal come from?

🤦🏾‍♂️This question is just borderline reaching! Whether or not I have been given the "brain", "circumstances" and "experiences" of a criminal doesn't the change the fact that such come from my internal being. It's his choice to be swayed by his circumstances to be a criminal, some in that situation won't do such! That's agency of choice. All your speculations have in no way nullified his agency of choice!

Gabrielshow24:
🤦🏾‍♂️This question is just borderline reaching! Whether or not I have been given the "brain", "circumstances" and "experiences" of a criminal doesn't the change the fact that such come from my internal being. It's his choice to be swayed by his circumstances to be a criminal, some in that situation won't do such! That's agency of choice. All your speculations have in no way nullified his agency of choice!

But agency of choice is not based on nothing. You don't choose based on nothing. You choose based on thoughts and those thoughts originate in processes in the brain you're not aware of and based in past occurrences you never chose, beginning all the way from birth!

Gabrielshow24:
Group posting above? that's vague. Do you mean to include Deepsight in this? 🤨

Even at that, bandwagon fallacy doesn't affirm the truth. Also, what "no free will" situation?
All your arguments doesn't negate free will, it emphasizes a coexistence of dynamic and static objects, objective and subjective perceptions etc Which is the recurring theme in the universe!

This is just grammar. I repeat if an omniscient, omnipotent creator knows 100 per cent what you will do, you will do it. Simple.
His knowledge of what you will do existed before you existed at all - so how will you change it?
If you change it you are more powerful than him - also his omniscience fails.

In all the unnecessary mis-applied English you try to write, you fail at the simple point - the fact that omniscience and freewill are incompatible.

You will try to say He knows all the options - but wrong - the point is he knows the exact option you will take before he even made you.

To emphasize - it was known what you will do even before you existed!

That is an incongruity that can never be explained. Mind you - I dont affirm either precept - omniscience or freewill - it is you who does.
You are simply trying to say that a square circle exists.

I have no doubt a person like you will try to reconcile contradictions such as claiming Jesus was fully man and fully God.
Even when the definitions are exclusive. Man is limited. God is limitless. But no doubt you will try using mis-applied words to spin a tale.

Try elsewhere. Not impressed.

DeepSight:
This is just grammar. I repeat if an omniscient, omnipotent creator knows 100 per cent what you will do, you will do it. Simple.
His knowledge of what you will do existed before you existed at all - so how will you change it?
If you change it you are more powerful than him - also his omniscience fails.

In all the unnecessary mis-applied English you try to write, you fail at the simple point - the fact that omniscience and freewill are incompatible.

You will try to say He knows all the options - but wrong - the point is he knows the exact option you will take before he even made you.

To emphasize - it was known what you will do even before you existed!

That is an incongruity that can never be explained. Mind you - I dont affirm either precept - omniscience or freewill - it is you who does.
You are simply trying to say that a square circle exists.

I have no doubt a person like you will try to reconcile contradictions such as claiming Jesus was fully man and fully God.
Even when the definitions are exclusive. Man is limited. God is limitless. But no doubt you will try using mis-applied words to spin a tale.

Try elsewhere. Not impressed.

Nicely said. The Bibles says he created everything for a purpose, even an evil man for the day of war ( Proverbs 16:4, Isaiah 45:7). Even Isaiah 46:10, Ephesians 1:4 supports this logic. If the Bible is correct then freewill is nothing but human creation.

FreeIgboho:
In your honest opinion you reallly think almighty God did not know he'd be caught?? Even a common fortune teller will tell him: "I see you in trouble"

He knew he would be caught if he stays against his warning. He will not be caught if he obeyed his words.

Any other thing outside this is your own man-made reasoning. I prefer to use scripture to explain things.

Boomark:
He knew he would be caught if he stays against his warning. He will not be caught if he obeyed his words.

Any other thing outside this is your own man-made reasoning. I prefer to use scripture to explain things.

And here I was, thinking God was omniscient. So much for that.
Even a fortune teller knows better than God. Who woulda thought.

How, though, do you reconcile with this biblical below