₦airaland Forum

Emusan:

Look at the @color-red, how can He be the FIRST CREATURE and still be BEFORE CREATION?

God who is not a liar and can never lie told us the very first thing He created. Gen 1:1 "In the beginning (the start of creation), God created the heavens and the Earth"

The term FIRSTBORN is about SUPREMACY reason why He was BEFORE CREATION and not PART OF CREATION.

You make a good point. Can you please explain the FIRSTBORN part more. Born by which mother?
Born how?

FreeIgboho:
Na wa for them o. But the Boomark guy was beginning to make a bit of sense. Did you ask him why the Word of God cannot be considered also God?

Someone who has gotten the fundamentals flawed, the building blocks have no hope!

AntiChristian:
When you are ignorant you exude sheer ignorance!

Nothing beats knowledge!

There's none comparable to Allah!

And that does not mean the creations of Allah can't do some of the things Allah does!

Allah speaks! Humans too speak! But Allah's way of speak is not comparable to that of humans!

Go get knowledge!

Humans have hands and Allah has two right hands. Surely, it's not comparable 😂!

Gabrielshow24:
Someone who has gotten the fundamentals flawed, the building blocks have no hope!

He acknowledged that God's Word did indeed become flesh. Didn't anybody tell him the Bible says the word of God is God?

FreeIgboho:
He acknowledged that God's Word did indeed become flesh. Didn't anybody tell him the Bible says the word of God is God?

🤔He must have probably missed that verse👌. He might have also explained it away, as a typical Unitarian, that Jesus isn't God.

All in all, his God is compositional. I will like to see God's eyes become flesh 🤤—We must have missed that verse.

Gabrielshow24:
🤔He must have probably missed that verse👌. He might have also explained it away, as a typical Unitarian, that Jesus isn't God.

All in all, his God is compositional. I will like to see God's eyes become flesh 🤤—We must have missed that verse.

It's amazing to what extent they'd go to deny Christ's divinity.
What u make of these two below?

DeepSight:
I will give you both verses were the Bible says so and where Jesus himself says so - since the question is about the whole of the Bible being true - (I have highlighted important words of Jesus himself in red) -

1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

LordReed:
I'll give it to you but strictly speaking these aren't denials which is why Christians can claim that Jesus is god via the Trinity doctrine. However to be clear I do agree that Jesus is not the god.

You two should juxtapose all this against real life. See all the people that have to wrong for Jesus not to be divine:

*Yahweh Himself would be totally powerless allowing someone else worshipped interchangeably with him and massively blessing those that worship that Person!
* Jesus himself who said he was God
* All those prophets of old testament
* The Magi who worshipped him as a new born
* His apostles who closely dealt with him and knew him intimately (you know better than them! All from reading words writen in a book 2000+ years later!)
*All the anointed ones and saints who have worshipped him over these 2000+ years
*All the people in whose lives he is active TODAY!

FreeIgboho:
You two should juxtapose all this against real life. See all the people that have to wrong for Jesus not to be divine:

*Yahweh Himself would be totally powerless allowing someone else worshipped interchangeably with him and massively blessing those that worship that Person!
* Jesus himself who said he was God
* All those prophets of old testament
* The Magi who worshipped him as a new born
* His apostles who closely dealt with him and knew him intimately (you know better than them! All from reading words writen in a book 2000+ years later!)
*All the anointed ones and saints who have worshipped him over these 2000+ years
*All the people in whose lives he is active TODAY!

I dont think you have said anything new here which you have not been appropriately disabused of already.

FreeIgboho:
It's amazing to what extent they'd go to deny Christ's divinity.
What u make of these two below?

He has stated verses but lacks the wisdom to fit all together. If he must do so well, he must take the whole of scripture👌.

Until then, he will always be a nestorian—nothing more, nothing less!

FreeIgboho:
My good brother please see the screenshot of the response I gave to your question below. Note the underlined in blue. Analyze all and kindly tell me how it does not answer your question.

Commendable that u want to believe only the word of God; but you have to first know the word of God. That's where those 300 bishops and others like them come in. Unlike you, they dedicate their whole lives to studying the Bible and meditating on the word.

Those closest to Jesus and who spent time with him, called him God. You are only reading (possibly manipulated) words in a book over 2000 years later, and you are arguing with them!

You are still not showing me what I asked you. Its obvious you believe more your 300 bishops. But I believe only in the word of God.

So continue believing in them. I will not argue with them and they should not argue with me if they find it difficult to understand what I ask them.

DeepSight:
I dont think you have said anything new here which you have not been appropriately disabused of already.

Do you know the chances that a person foretold as God that is comming and worshipped as a new-born, will grow up and be worshipped by his friends, and 2000+ years later still be worshipped? ZERO!
No other person in history has this almost happened with. NONE!!!!

Boomark:
You are still not showing me what I asked you. Its obvious you believe more your 300 bishops. But I believe only in the word of God.

So continue believing in them. I will not argue with them and they should not argue with me if they find it difficult to understand what I ask them.

Kindly, I've shown you that God is OMNISCIENT!
WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT MR TO SHOW YOU??!!!!!

You'll never live long enough to analyze the Bible the way 300 bishops analyzed it to come to a unanimous decision at Nicea

Gabrielshow24:
He has stated verses but lacks the wisdom to fit all together. If he must do so well, he must take the whole of scripture👌.

Until then, he will always be a nestorian—nothing more, nothing less!

What I don't understand about people like DeepSight and Boomark is that THEY HAVE 2000+ YEARS OF HINDSIGHT!!! If they were disputing Christ's divinity durring the 1st century that could be understandable. But now? After all that has happened??

FreeIgboho:
Kindly, I've shown you that God is OMNISCIENT!
WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT MR TO SHOW YOU??!!!!!

You'll never live long enough to analyze the Bible the way 300 bishops analyzed it to come to a unanimous decision at Nicea

Will they send you to kill me or you think saying that will make you sound reasonable? Maybe they all lived 300 years each while analysing bible.

SHOW ME OMNISCIENT IN THE BIBLE AND IT MEANING. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU SINCE. IF YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS ENGLISH, GO AND ASK YOUR 300 BISHOPS TO EXPLAIN IT FOR YOU.

I am tired of all these pretenders. Acting as if they don't know I want because they don't have it. Even their bishops don't have it and will never have it even if they live upto 1000years old.

Those who said you act like children knew you from Adam.

Boomark:
Will they send you to kill me or you think saying that will make you sound reasonable? Maybe they all lived 300 years each while analysing bible.

SHOW ME OMNISCIENT IN THE BIBLE AND IT MEANING. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU SINCE. IF YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS ENGLISH, GO AND ASK YOUR 300 BISHOPS TO EXPLAIN IT FOR YOU.

I am tired of all these pretenders. Acting as if they don't know I want because they don't have it. Even their bishops don't have it and will never have it even if they live upto 1000years old.

Those who said you act like children knew you from Adam.

Patiently, "omniscient" is a relatively recent word that did not exist when the Bible was translated to English. You can Google it yourself.
But it is very clearly implied in the Bible as one of the qualities of God (as you can see below)

FreeIgboho:
But gut feeling and intuition and "unreasonable" decisions also originate deep inside the brain!
Infact they're typical examples of you not knowing nor controlling the inner processes of the brain. It does the relevant permutations without your conscious awareness, based on it's vast accumulation of data that you consciously have long since forgotten and present the result to you as intuition

interesting you seem to know about brain, so tell me, where does the data in the brain of a new born baby come from?

can someone check up on gohf? I think he has also been targeted. Happy Sunday, y'all.

FreeIgboho:
You two should juxtapose all this against real life. See all the people that have to wrong for Jesus not to be divine:

*Yahweh Himself would be totally powerless allowing someone else worshipped interchangeably with him and massively blessing those that worship that Person!

You should tell this to all those who are scamming people in the name of Yahweh. You powerless god doesn't exactly nothing just as we would expect from a nonexistent being.

FreeIgboho:
You make a good point. Can you please explain the FIRSTBORN part more.

Firstly, FIRSTBORN is different from FIRST CREATED and both words have their root in Greek language.

Secondly, loose meaning of the term FIRSTBORN is just "Number one, Senior, eldest, First in Position"

So to understand the term FIRSTBORN as used by Paul, we need to look at how it was used before him.

For instance, God said in Exodus 4:22 that "Then you will tell him, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son" but we all know Esau is the FIRSTBORN. It means God has chosen Israel(Jacob/the Nation of Israel) as HIGHER than Esau/Other Nations.

When Paul said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creatures, Paul was talking about SUPREMACY. That is why Paul went further to say EVERYTHING WAS CREATED THROUGH CHRIST (Col 1:16-17). If ALL THINGS were created through Christ then Christ can't be the FIRST CREATED being. Big reason why Watchtower has to dubiously INSERT the word "OTHER" which was never found in the Greek manuscripts into Col 1:16-17 multiple times to alter it and deceive their members.

Which now read "because by means of him all OTHER things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All OTHER things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all OTHER things, and by means of him all OTHER things were made to exist" - NWT

Remove the word "OTHER" from these verses and see Christ as The Creator.

Born by which mother?
Born how?

The only time Jesus was born by a mother is when He became Human and was born by Mary.

Just like I explained above, Paul saying Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION is about SUPREMACY. In fact, without dishonesty and bias view of Col 1:15, Paul himself explained the reason why Jesus is FIRSTBORN (NOTE: Paul also said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the death) in verse 18 "...so that he might become the one who is first in all (OTHER) things" - NWT

Notice how the word OTHER is missing here but I have to insert it to show how bias the translator of NWT are.

gohf:
interesting you seem to know about brain, so tell me, where does the data in the brain of a new born baby come from?

The data in a newborn's brain PRIMARILY comes from sensory experiences and interactions with their environment. While a baby's brain is not a blank slate at birth, it's shaped and developed by the information it receives through senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) and the interactions they have with their caregivers.

Newborns experience the world through their senses. They see colors and shapes, hear sounds, feel textures, and smell various scents. This sensory information is transmitted to the brain via nerves and forms the foundation for learning and development.

Also, the interactions with parents and caregivers are crucial. Positive interactions, talking, singing, reading, and providing a safe, stable environment all contribute to building brain connections.

These early experiences shape the neural pathways in the brain. For example, consistent and nurturing care helps develop trust and emotional regulation, while a stimulating environment encourages cognitive growth.

The brain forms neural connections based on these experiences. These connections are the basis for learning, memory, and all brain functions.
This "programming" continues all life long and form the basis for choices and decisions. That "programming" AND the original type of brain given to the person (a person with defective brain will make crazy choices regardless). Point is, NONE of this is chosen by the child.

Emusan:
Firstly, FIRSTBORN is different from FIRST CREATED and both words have their root in Greek language.

Secondly, loose meaning of the term FIRSTBORN is just "Number one, Senior, eldest, First in Position"

So to understand the term FIRSTBORN as used by Paul, we need to look at how it was used before him.

For instance, God said in Exodus 4:22 that "Then you will tell him, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son" but we all know Esau is the FIRSTBORN. It means God has chosen Israel(Jacob/the Nation of Israel) as HIGHER than Esau/Other Nations.

When Paul said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creatures, Paul was talking about SUPREMACY. That is why Paul went further to say EVERYTHING WAS CREATED THROUGH CHRIST (Col 1:16-17). If ALL THINGS were created through Christ then Christ can't be the FIRST CREATED being. Big reason why Watchtower has to dubiously INSERT the word "OTHER" which was never found in the Greek manuscripts into Col 1:16-17 multiple times to alter it and deceive their members.

Which now read "because by means of him all OTHER things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All OTHER things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all OTHER things, and by means of him all OTHER things were made to exist" - NWT

Remove the word "OTHER" from these verses and see Christ as The Creator.



The only time Jesus was born by a mother is when He became Human and was born by Mary.

Just like I explained above, Paul saying Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION is about SUPREMACY. In fact, without dishonesty and bias view of Col 1:15, Paul himself explained the reason why Jesus is FIRSTBORN (NOTE: Paul also said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the death) in verse 18 "...so that he might become the one who is first in all (OTHER) things" - NWT

Notice how the word OTHER is missing here but I have to insert it to show how bias the translator of NWT are.

Thatnks for your thoughtful response.
Jesus is called the ONLY begotten Son of God.
Please, how does that mesh with your erudite response?

LordReed:
You should tell this to all those who are scamming people in the name of Yahweh. Your powerless god does exactly nothing just as we would expect from a nonexistent being.

This is NOT true at all. Sooner or later they ALL get their comeuppance, publicly or privately, directly or indirectly.


Folks please forgive us but we have an important question. Please, we'll present the scenario then ask the question.

Here's the scenario:
*Various prophets foretold that GOD was coming to visit earth in the OT
* A mighty prophet (so mighty they thought he was Elijah or that prophet promised by God) came and said his entire mission was to prepare the way for that Person and that he was not fit to even untie his shoes.
* A Person then came and met all the conditions of birth and ancestry prophesied and was worshipped at birth by some discerning wise men with great spiritual insight, the Magi.
* He said himself he was the long-awaited God, the Son of God, and did things and conducted himself in a way that supports that.
* He was the only person Israelites ever tried to stone to death for saying he was God
* His closest friends and companions who dealt with him and knew him personally believed he was God
* For 2000+ he has been worshipped as, and interchangeably with, "jealous" God, and far from being punished by "jealous" God, his worshippers have been abundantly blessed and their numbers exploded and always increasing.
*Over those 2000+ years he has been worshipped by some very special people including people with great spiritual insights, various annointed ones, and saints.
*He is ALIVE and ACTIVE in people's lives TODAY and various people have testified to interacting with him including in dreams and near-death experiences.

Our question is:
CAN YOU BELIEVE SOME PEOPLE TODAY STILL DOUBT HE IS DIVINE??!!
They know better than people who knew him PERSONALLY! All based on their understanding of some words someone said that someone said that someone said that he might have said. Same words 300 bishops examined in totality and unanimously concluded he was divine!
If you can even remotely believe that please tell us on what basis you can believe such!


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FreeIgboho:
That's for your thoughtful response.
Jesus is called the ONLY begotten Son of God.
Please, how does that mesh with your erudite response?

God is uncreated and eternal in the past, yes?
So if the son is begotten of God, then he is not eternal on the past - he is a created being.

Therefore he cannot be the creator, God.
Do you know the history of the term "only begotten?" (monogenes)

FreeIgboho:
This is NOT true at all. Sooner or later they ALL get their comeuppance, publicly or privately, directly or indirectly.

What an insipid excuse. There is no sooner or later because they are still here and more are arising everyday. Signs of a non-existent deity.

LordReed:
What an insipid excuse. There is no sooner or later because they are still here and more are arising everyday. Signs of a non-existent deity.

All those of yesteryears where are they today??
Jesus has been worshipped interchangeably with Almighty God for 2000+ years!

DeepSight:
God is uncreated and eternal in the past, yes?
So if the son is begotten of God, then he is not eternal on the past - he is a created being.

Therefore he cannot be the creator, God.
Do you know the history of the term "only begotten?" (monogenes)

NOT begotten in that sense. These are SPIRITUAL matters!!!

FreeIgboho:
NOT begotten in that sense. These are SPIRITUAL matters!!!

In what sense then?
Because for many of you it seems that you think waving the word "spiritual" is enough to exempt you from making sense.

DeepSight:
In what sense then?
Because for many of you it seems that you think waving the word "spiritual" is enough to exempt you from making sense.

Word of God is begotten of God. Does that make it not part of God?

FreeIgboho:
Word of God is begotten of God. Does that make it not part of God?

Your words are not you and you existed even before you could speak or ever spoke, if that analigy suffices.
Besides dont change the point: the point is about his being a begotten son, not about being the word of God, whatever that means.

DeepSight:
Your words are not you and you existed even before you could speak or ever spoke, if that analigy suffices.
Besides dont change the point: the point is about his being a begotten son, not about being the word of God, whatever that means.

Have you ever read John 1:1? See it below