₦airaland Forum

Westerhoffe:
That if that's how you're destined to die, you might never see it coming until it happens.

I believe your reply to DeepSight is lost in translation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're trying to express is the colloquial idea.." Since no one can be sure how or when they will die, a bad dream serves as a warning to pray for God's protection"


This is different from the theologica concept of fixed " will of God" that cannot be changed. Your practice of praying against negative possibilities suggests you believe more in the colloquial flexible meaning of a potential outcome that can be averted through prayers.


Is that a fair interpretation of your position?

triplechoice:
I believe your reply to DeepSight is lost in translation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're trying to express is the colloquial idea.." Since no one can be sure how or when they will die, a bad dream serves as a warning to pray for God's protection"


This is different from the theologica concept of fixed " will of God" that cannot be changed. Your practice of praying against negative possibilities suggests you believe more in the colloquial flexible meaning of a potential outcome that can be averted through prayers.


Is that a fair interpretation of your position?

I believe at this point he is afraid of the simple question and doubt very much that he will offer anything tangible.
I have seen your other post and thank you for it, will be glad to respond as soon as I can. You always come with clear thoughts.

LordReed:
Inserting yourself into situations that have zero to do with what you know is narcissistic.

Give 3 instances where i inserted myself. Zero, really? Try some honesty.

Image123:
Give 3 instances where i inserted myself. Zero, really? Try some honesty.

I have spoken about narcissism in relation to you exactly 3 times going my my post history even though there have been other occasions I didn't call you out on. Check the screenshots.

triplechoice:
Hello, @ DeepSight. I'd like to address separately here all the points you've raised since my initial clarification which was meant to diffuse the tension between Westerhoffe and Lordreed.

I believe there's a significant misunderstanding at the heart of your argument that I wish to address. My intention isn't to argue for the effectiveness of prayer, that's a task for the Christians following the thread to tackle. I aim to offer a perspective based on things I've learned as someone who has participated fully in both Christianity and another religion.

First , on the nature of "Destiny" in Christianity, your argument rests on a generalisation that " religious people mean"destiny" was placed there by God. This is exactly where the major error lies. What you described is a belief much closer to fatalism or specifically Islamic theology, not mainstream Christianity .

Christianity doesn't teach that every event in life, especially negative ones such as accidents , sickness, or sudden death, is a specific,pre-set " destiny" ordained by God. Instead, at the heart of the Christian worldview is the concept of spiritual warfare. ( Ephesians:6:12). Christians are taught that evil forces are actively operating in the world.

Therefore, when a believer has a dream about death and prays against it,, he or she is almost certainly not understanding that dream as a revelation of God's immutable will. They're much more likely interpreting it as a warning of a potential attack from an enemy and a call to spiritual vigilance.

The prayer against death isn't an attempt to "defeat God's will" ,but a petition for protection and deliverance exactly as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "deliver us from evil". In this instance, Westerhoffe is asking his God to enact his will over a potential evil outcome.

I challenge the idea that the Bible does not teach predestination in an absolute sense.
If this is true, then what do you think the Bible is teaching in the following -

Romans 8:28-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Jeremiah 1:5
“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139:15-16
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

Finally -

Jeremiah 10:23 - "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."


I urge you to look critically at each of the foregoing and see if these are not teachings of absolute predestination, from the very steps you take, to your final purpose even before you were made. Intricately.

These are on all fours with Islamic Fatalism.

Furthermore, religion like Eckankar, which I am familiar with, and many traditional and Eastern belief systems teach that destiny is largely malleable "isn't cast in stone:" .It exist as a field of future possibilities , good or bad, based on the individual's karma, and can be altered if one wishes to avoid a particular outcome. Glimpse of these potential paths can be viewed in dreams or through soul travel. If a person sees a future they wish to avoid, they can change it through dedicated spiritual practice and by taking concrete actions to steer away from the path .The shared core principle is that one's present-moment intentions, choices, and actions exert powerful influence on one's future,making one and active participant in shaping one's own destiny.

Eckankar, the religion of the light and sound of God, is a FAR DEEPER school of thinking than anything to be found in Abrahamic religions. Yes, what you have described here is apt, and karma has a lot to do with it, in Eck thinking, and most Eastern schools of thought if not all.

Now, this leads me to your other point about the colloquial use of destiny. I believe you're creating a false equivalence, either deliberately or unintentionally. In it's true colloquial sense, the word, "destiny" is rarely,if ever,used for logical impossibilities like you becoming "the Pope"or "the"crown prince ". That would certainly be absurd.

" Destiny " is normally used in one of two ways:

1. As a likely outcome based on one's current actions. For instance, " If you never study, your destiny is to fail the exam".

2. As a sense of fitting purpose. For instance, "He is always kicking things as a child, now he has found his destiny as a professional footballer".

When a Christian talks about a dream of death and prays against that"destiny ", he's using it in the first sense. The dream suggests a feared potential outcome, a negative path his life could take. His prayer is an attempt to avert that potential outcome.

While " hope" is a beautiful word, it fails to capture the same meaning. You hope for good things. You pray against a negative destiny.

They really should find another word because its just not the same thing. But yes, I understand the colloquial usage. That usage is entirely informal and has no business in serious discussions.

On the function of prayer, your use of the Gethsemane example is not complete . You isolated Jesus's prayer of submission and presented it as the only valid form of prayer. Yet, the same Jesus who submitted to the cross also taught his followers to pray to change circumstances, "Give us this day our daily bread" , deliver us from evil " . Performed miracles that actively altered the "destiny" of the sick, the hungry and the dead .

I disagree. The "Our Father" is not a prayer to change any divine will. If anything it is an affirmation of it, and a signal of humility and thanks.

And I strongly urge you not to attempt to trivialize Gethsemane. It is a huge example. It shows very well that the will of God in Christianity cannot be changed by any amount of prayer, even by the son.

Finally, you ask if God's will can be changed. I will leave you with one clear biblical example.

The prophet Isaiah told King Hezekiah ."This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order because you are going to die: You will not recover" . Hezekiah did not accept this as a "fixed fate" placed by God. Instead,he turned his face to the wall, prayed, and wept bitterly . In response, God sent Isaiah back with a new message."I have heard your prayer and seen your tears ; I will heal you..I will add fifteen years to your life" This is a clear biblical precedent where a proclaimed outcome was changed through prayer.

I truly cannot comment on the antics of every prophet. It could well be that the result was always what was going to happen, and the warning only ensured the result, if you get my drift. Something self-fulfilling. Be that as it may, this cannot stand against the weight of all the verses in red above.

So, to conclude, the contradiction you see is based on a misapplication of a fatalistic concept of destiny to a Christian who doesn't operate within that paradigm. Within his framework , where God is a protector from evil, his actions are perfectly coherent. He's watching and praying, just as his scripture admonish him to do . However , the lingering issue is the reluctance of him to accept that the initial misunderstanding wasn't due to an inability to comprehend, but rather how both of them perceived the same word, "destiny" . Identifying that semantic gap was the primary goal of my intervention and clarification.

Thank you

All this I understand, but in truth, if any Christian believes in God's will, they will not bother themselves. Rest, for it will be done. But there is no rest, because fear of tomorrow is part of that program and part of that will, and it is, in itself, self-fulfilling.

Have you ever heard of the Greek myth of Oedipus? When Oedipus was born to the king and queen of Thebes, Laius and Jocasta, a prophet announced that the baby would grow up to kill his father and marry his mother. The boy did everything to avoid this prophecy and all those actions are exactly what made the prophecy come true. I trust you see the point.

DeepSight:
I believe at this point he is afraid of the simple question and doubt very much that he will offer anything tangible.
I have seen your other post and thank you for it, will be glad to respond as soon as I can. You always come with clear thoughts.

Well, at this stage, I'm beginning to suspect you're right. He may be one of those who holds a belief intuitively but can't articulate it clearly or isn't fully aware of its implications.

His reply was indeed a tautology, it stated the obvious without adding any new information. The fact that a 'destined' event won't be known until it happens is true by definition. It's like saying 'the sun will rise in the morning.' It doesn't clarify his position at all. From a human perspective, no one is expected to foresee a destined event until it occurs, so his statement simply circled back to the initial confusion.

In any case, thank you sincerely for your commendation. I do appreciate it. I just saw your reply and will respond to it later in the day.I have some things to handle at the office, so I'll get back to you after 4 PM.

Talkisneeded:
Jesus has no powers over death,plus it’s boldly written that all soul shall taste death,even tasted death before resurrection

You mean souls die?

Westerhoffe:
Destined to die in a way is not what anyone knows about, so when you have a bad dream of dying, you have every reason to pray against it.
No human knows how and when they're going to die.
If it is your destiny, you won't even know until it happens.

Who is the source of the destiny?

Dtruthspeaker:
Who does not know that death attacks people many times even before their due date?

who is in charge of this due date?

Truthseeker10:
You mean souls die?

You should change the truth in your moniker to deceit,are you telling me you don’t know the meaning of soul in there

Image123:
You can change a course or destiny by different means, including prayer. Asking for what you perceive as the extreme doesn't change the fact. Perhaps the time is flexible and not fixed was why Jesus said He didn't know. i am not big on believing personal dreams and the likes, but i have read/heard some people allude to the same thing of a postponement in their dreams and the likes as well.
Interesting that Jesus linked the end to when the gospel has been preached in all the world. i know folks who literally take that as a factor for Jesus' coming. In other words, that means is affecting the coming in their understanding.

So who is this person that writes the time that Jesus himself does not know?

Talkisneeded:
You should change the truth in your moniker to deceit,are you telling me you don’t know the meaning of soul in there

What's the meaning?

Truthseeker10:
So who is this person that writes the time that Jesus himself does not know?

Take a guess.

Image123:
Take a guess.

I can't. Tell me

Truthseeker10:
who is in charge of this due date?

3 people I have seen.

1) The Giver of Life, God.

2) Satan and death.

3) You who has been given life but chose to terminate it.

Dtruthspeaker:
3 people I have seen.

1) The Giver of Life, God.

2) Satan and death.

3) You who has been given life but chose to terminate it.

So you mean that the giver of life has not given us a due date even before we and satan and death was created?

Truthseeker10:
I can't. Tell me

i can't.

Image123:
i can't.

Alright....so you're actually spitting out ignorance.

Truthseeker10:
Alright....so you're actually spitting out ignorance.

If you think so.

LordReed:
I have spoken about narcissism in relation to you exactly 3 times going my my post history even though there have been other occasions I didn't call you out on. Check the screenshots.

You were talking about me the whole time, so how did i insert myself? You accused ME of hating you, you said that you won't do MY work for ME, and you said that you didn't send ME.

Truthseeker10:
So you mean that the giver of life has not given us a due date even before we and satan and death was created?

Did you not read the beginning was that The Giver of Life gave life with no death save the condition that man does not go to the area and place of death?

Therefore, there was nothing like death and due date from God at the first.

But after man listened to the sayt & invited death into his life, now due date commenced with due date Number 1, from God being man must die in a day!

And due date Number 2 being determined by God, sayt and you.

Image123:
You were talking about me the whole time, so how did i insert myself? You accused ME of hating you, you said that you won't do MY work for ME, and you said that you didn't send ME.

You acting like you know my wife is why I said that. In the other one in what world is asking you to provide evidence of what you said demanding to be spoon fed if not that you are full of yourself.

Dtruthspeaker:
Did you not read the beginning was that The Giver of Life gave life with no death save the condition that man does not go to the area and place of death?

Therefore, there was nothing like death and due date from God at the first.

But after man listened to the sayt & invited death into his life, now due date commenced with due date Number 1, from God being man must die in a day!

And due date Number 2 being determined by God, sayt and you.

So before we are born on earth, does God know the exact time and date that we would die?

LordReed:
You acting like you know my wife is why I said that. In the other one in what world is asking you to provide evidence of what you said demanding to be spoon fed if not that you are full of yourself.

Telling you to do a simple google or AI search is not narcissism. i know you and your wife. Find another description perhaps.

Image123:
Telling you to do a simple google or AI search is not narcissism. i know you and your wife. Find another description perhaps.

You don't know us. You know what you've read here. So getting puffed up about that is nothing but narcissism.

LordReed:
You don't know us. You know what you've read here. So getting puffed up about that is nothing but narcissism.

Lol at getting puffed up. i see you narrowed out to one. Best to find a better word. False accusation doesn't have to foster vocabulary exercise. i don't know you, but you know me, Lolz. Mirror

Image123:
Lol at getting puffed up. i see you narrowed out to one. Best to find a better word. False accusation doesn't have to foster vocabulary exercise. i don't know you, but you know me, Lolz. Mirror

I have never claimed to know you or what your life is like beyond what you write. I am not full of myself like you.

LordReed:
I have never claimed to know you or what your life is like beyond what you write. I am not full of myself like you.

Oh but you can call me names without knowing me. Do you know Trump?

Truthseeker10:
So before we are born on earth, does God know the exact time and date that we would die?

Of course He knows and can know all the various times that you are about to die depending on all the activities that go on around you.

And just to answer your next set of questions, it in all of these knowings, it is necessary that you must bear in mind that it is not compulsory and mandatory that He will enter fare in all your deaths. And none of these affect His knowings.

It is you the die'ee, who is affected by death and needs to be bothered about it.

Image123:
Oh but you can call me names without knowing me. Do you know Trump?

If you write claptrap I will call it claptrap. If you write in a narcissistic way I will call you out.

What has Trump got to do with this?

LordReed:
If you write claptrap I will call it claptrap. If you write in a narcissistic way I will call you out.

What has Trump got to do with this?

You don't know what claptrap is. You don't know what narcissism is. You didn't answer the question too.

Dtruthspeaker:
Of course He knows and can know all the various times that you are about to die depending on all the activities that go on around you.

And just to answer your next set of questions, it in all of these knowings, it is necessary that you must bear in mind that it is not compulsory and mandatory that He will enter fare in all your deaths. And none of these affect His knowings.

It is you the die'ee, who is affected by death and needs to be bothered about it.

So your God has set the day that you will die even before you were born and there's nothing either you or Satan can do about it?