₦airaland Forum

Dtruthspeaker:
Do you not know that hail is the greeting hello or hail oo as Nigerians would say?

And the follow up sentence of full of grace, is it not exactly what we say in "better woman wey God love and God dey with".

Is this not the same greeting we greet people who are well behaved?

No where did the angel call her holy (where even Jesus Said no one is holy, yet you people have holified Mary) or queen or a person who gives life and sweetness and hope.

"Hail holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail our life, our sweetness, and our hope"

The angels salutation is very clear and understandable and within normal limits as we do the same to people who are better than us that is the people who we call goody goody and God fearing people. But none of these were worshipped.

Jesus Christ was both Man and God because he had flesh, lived with men, ate the foods they ate, had feelings also, etc.

The only thing different between Jesus and the rest of men is that he had no Original Sin.

Now, justify how it was possible for Jesus Christ to have been born without Original Sin if the womb that carried her for 9 months and whose breast milk He suckled had Original Sin.

Penguin2:
Jesus Christ was both Man and God because he had flesh, lived with men, ate the foods they ate, had feelings also, etc.

The only thing different between Jesus and the rest of men is that he had no Original Sin.

Now, justify how it was possible for Jesus Christ to have been born without Original Sin if the womb that carried her for 9 months and whose breast milk He suckled had Original Sin.

Fallacy of Change of Post! The issue is not about Jesus Christ, original sin and breast milk .

So you see, you people have no justification for your actions

Dtruthspeaker:
Fallacy of Change of Post! The issue is not about Jesus Christ, original sin and breast milk .

So you see, you people have no justification for your actions

First, there’s nothing like Fallacy of Change of Post.

Second, the instance I gave you does not in any shape or form deviate from the topic of discourse because we are talking about Mary’s holiness.

So, don’t dodge the question and answer me.

The Catholic Church emerged after the death of all Jewish disciples of Jesus and it's a political leader that championed the initiation of the Roman Catholic Church.
Jesus used a parable to help people in our time know what will happen when his Jewish disciples are no more.

Jesus said:


Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ” ‭Matthew 13:24-30 NIV‬


Jesus is the sower and his Jewish disciples are the seeds Satan is the enemy who sowed sons of disobedience among Jesus' disciples but as long as his Jewish disciples live these apostates can't form a group they only criticize the Apostles while seeking to establish their own rules. After the death of all the apostles and elders in Jerusalem {Matthew 13:25} the apostates seek the support of a Roman emperor to establish their own religion and forced it on anyone who wants to stick to the teachings of the Apostles.
That is the reason why Romans used the armies to force Catholicism in many places but despite their cruelty many were protesting against the forceful rule of the Catholic as the emperor is giving his own people the needed support after all it's about his own political ambitions.
So the idea that Peter was the first Pope is a political lie that's what politicians do after the death of anyone who is fighting for justice they will claim they are his disciples but in reality they wouldn't have accepted him if he is alive.
The rest of these churches protested continually until they got their freedom to start their own churches after the fall of Roman empire!😟

Penguin2:
First, there’s nothing like Fallacy of Change of Post.

Second, the instance I gave you does not in any shape or form deviate from the topic of discourse because we are talking about Mary’s holiness.

So, don’t dodge the question and answer me.

There are several fallacies that involve changing or ignoring the topic of an argument. These fallacies include:
Irrelevant Conclusion (or Ignoratio Elenchi): The broader, formal name for missing the point.

Red Herring: The deliberate attempt to change the subject.
Moving the Goalposts:.

And your response is a departure from post as I even explained that the issue is not about Jesus Christ, original sin and breast milk. So you have deviated from the issue and therefore you people have no justification for your actions.

Dtruthspeaker:
There are several fallacies that involve changing or ignoring the topic of an argument. These fallacies include:
Irrelevant Conclusion (or Ignoratio Elenchi): The broader, formal name for missing the point.

Red Herring: The deliberate attempt to change the subject.
Moving the Goalposts:.

And your response is a departure from post as I even explained that the issue is not about Jesus Christ, original sin and breast milk. So you have deviated from the issue and therefore you people have no justification for your actions.

Oga, did you say Mary is not holy or not?

MaxInDHouse:
The Catholic Church emerged after the death of all Jewish disciples of Jesus and it's a political leader that championed the initiation of the Roman Catholic Church.
Jesus used a parable to help people in our time know what will happen when his Jewish disciples are no more.

Jesus said:


Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ” ‭Matthew 13:24-30 NIV‬


Jesus is the sower and his Jewish disciples are the seeds Satan is the enemy who sowed sons of disobedience among Jesus' disciples but as long as his Jewish disciples live these apostates can't form a group they only criticize the Apostles while seeking to establish their own rules. After the death of all the apostles and elders in Jerusalem {Matthew 13:25} the apostates seek the support of a Roman emperor to establish their own religion and forced it on anyone who wants to stick to the teachings of the Apostles.
That is the reason why Romans used the armies to force Catholicism in many places but despite their cruelty many were protesting against the forceful rule of the Catholic as the emperor is giving his own people the needed support after all it's about his own political ambitions.
So the idea that Peter was the first Pope is a political lie that's what politicians do after the death of anyone who is fighting for justice they will claim they are his disciples but in reality they wouldn't have accepted him if he is alive.
The rest of these churches protested continually until they got their freedom to start their own churches after the fall of Roman empire!😟

Should I take it to mean therefore that you are saying the Bible is lying in Mathew 16:16 where Jesus told Peter that upon him He will build His church?

And also, the Acts of the Apostles is also lying for saying that after the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles at the Pentecost, Peter, as leader, came out and addressed the crowd?

First of all you need to know that this has nothing to do with your parents who raised you as a member of that church and it's not your fault that you believe in your religion so if you want to tackle this matter try as much as possible to be open-minded because neither you nor i knew Jesus or his Apostles we only read about them in the books of the Bible!

Penguin2:
Should I take it to mean therefore that you are saying the Bible is lying in Mathew 16:16 where Jesus told Peter that upon him He will build His church?

Jesus didn't say he will build his church on Peter rather what he said is that his church or congregation will be firmly established on what Peter said which is:

Jesus is the Christ the only begotten Son of God! Matthew 16:16

That's what Jesus meant not that his church or congregation will be built on Peter!😟

Penguin2:
And also, the Acts of the Apostles is also lying for saying that after the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles at the Pentecost, Peter, as leader, came out and addressed the crowd?

Peter is not the leader of that group but he is the eldest member among the Apostles so as Jewish custom whenever a question is asked Pharisees look forward to the eldest among that group to speak up. That's why the Bible always says
Peter and the Apostles said...... Act 2:14, 37; 4:19; 5:29

In all of the above nowhere states that Peter is the head of the group rather he was the eldest so according to Jewish custom he supposed to speak up among the rest who were much younger than him!

Penguin2:
Oga, did you say Mary is not holy or not?

No where in the bible is she called holy.

Dtruthspeaker:
No where in the bible is she called holy.

Now my question comes back.

Tell us how Jesus Christ was not corrupted by Original Sin if the woman that bore her had Original Sin.

Since you want Bible to tell you everything.

MaxInDHouse:
First of all you need to know that this has nothing to do with your parents who raised you as a member of that church and it's not your fault that you believe in your religion so if you want to tackle this matter try as much as possible to be open-minded because neither you nor i knew Jesus or his Apostles we only read about them in the books of the Bible!

Jesus didn't say he will build his church on Peter rather what he said is that his church or congregation will be firmly established on what Peter said which is:

Jesus is the Christ the only begotten Son of God! Matthew 16:16

That's what Jesus meant not that his church or congregation will be built on Peter!😟


Peter is not the leader of that group but he is the eldest member among the Apostles so as Jewish custom whenever a question is asked Pharisees look forward to the eldest among that group to speak up. That's why the Bible always says
Peter and the Apostles said...... Act 2:14, 37; 4:19; 5:29

In all of the above nowhere states that Peter is the head of the group rather he was the eldest so according to Jewish custom he supposed to speak up among the rest who were much younger than him!

Jesus Christ specifically told Peter that, “You are Simon Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gate of hell shall never prevail”.

Quote the verse that explicitly states that Jesus was referring to Peter’s answer and not Peter.

Stop trying to turn the Bible on its head just to win an argument.

Penguin2:
Jesus Christ specifically told Peter that, “You are Simon Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gate of hell shall never prevail”.

Quote the verse that explicitly states that Jesus was referring to Peter’s answer and not Peter.

Stop trying to turn the Bible on its head just to win an argument.

See below screenshot and tell me if Jesus said he is bullying a church on Peter.

See how you are deleting all my post because you see that your case is very very bad and there is no justification for your worship of Mary despite your attempts of trying to use fallacies of Ignoratio Elenchi, Red Herring and Moving the Goalposts which I have frustrated. So now you resort to deleting my post.

This just makes it worse as it proves you people have no justification at all

Penguin2:
Now my question comes back.

Tell us how Jesus Christ was not corrupted by Original Sin if the woman that bore her had Original Sin.

Since you want Bible to tell you everything.

Wait wait wait......So what they tell u pple in Catholic church is that Mary is the one that made Jesus uncorrupted by sin??

Ewooooo!!!

Jesus was already God without sin...., his coming through a woman was to enable him be a ransom for those who sinned because those who sinned were also born of woman.....other wise Jesus could have landed/arrived from the sky not born by any woman in the first place..


So u left the fact that Jesus is not the product of sperm and egg but the spirit of God as reason why he was not guilty of any sin...but you are clinging onto the woman that served as his entry into the flesh and blood domain.....

Its because you don't get the reason why God had to be made flesh in the first place in the reconciliation and judgement agenda of God.....that's why you are transferring God's glory to Mary...

advanceDNA:
Wait wait wait......So what they tell u pple in Catholic church is that Mary is the one that made Jesus uncorrupted by sin??

Ewooooo!!!

Jesus was already God without sin...., his coming through a woman was to enable him be a ransom for those who sinned because those who sinned were also born of woman.....other wise Jesus could have landed/arrived from the sky not born by any woman in the first place..


So u left the fact that Jesus is not the product of sperm and egg but the spirit of God as reason why he was not guilty of any sin...but you are clinging onto the woman that served as his entry into the flesh and blood domain.....
L...

Imagine ooo.

His case is so bad that he gets me banned when I respond to him

advanceDNA:
Wait wait wait......So what they tell u pple in Catholic church is that Mary is the one that made Jesus uncorrupted by sin??

Ewooooo!!!

Jesus was already God without sin...., his coming through a woman was to enable him be a ransom for those who sinned because those who sinned were also born of woman.....other wise Jesus could have landed/arrived from the sky not born by any woman in the first place..


So u left the fact that Jesus is not the product of sperm and egg but the spirit of God as reason why he was not guilty of any sin...but you are clinging onto the woman that served as his entry into the flesh and blood domain.....

Its because you don't get the reason why God had to be made flesh in the first place in the reconciliation and judgement agenda of God.....that's why you are transferring God's glory to Mary...

Take it slowly; one step at a time.

1) Jesus Christ is God. Yes?

2) Jesus Christ was also fully hu(man) while on earth. Because only one of us could have saved all of us from the condemnation of Original Sin. Yes?

Now, you believe in the powers of God to breathe Jesus into Mary without the sperm of Joseph but you don’t believe in the power of the same God to purify the abode of Christ for 9 months?

Nlfpmod

MaxInDHouse:
See below screenshot and tell me if Jesus said he is bullying a church on Peter.

Who/what is the ROCK referred in verse 18?

Penguin2:
Who/what is the ROCK referred in verse 18?

The statement:

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16

Is the foundation stone upon which pure worship (Christianity) will stand so let all know that God has given mankind a model for us to follow who is Jesus the Christ.

Dtruthspeaker:
No where in the bible is she called holy.

Why did God give you brains and logical abilities if you can’t use it to put 2 and 2 together?

It’s simple logic.

Because of the sin of Adam, every human born after Adam is corrupted by Original Sin.

But Jesus was without Original Sin.

Now, justify how Jesus Christ could have been without Original Sin if the woman that bore him had Original Sin.

How was Jesus’ humanity not corrupted by Mary’s impurity.

Bear in mind the biology of pregnancy and childbirth; the fact that the foetus survives for 9 months in the womb sustaining from whatever is passed to him through the bloodstream of the mother.

MaxInDHouse:
The statement:

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16

Is the foundation stone upon which pure worship (Christianity) will stand so let all know that God has given mankind a model for us to follow who is Jesus the Christ.

If Jesus was referring to Him being Christ as the Rock, why did He first identify Simon Peter before talking about the Rock?

Again, need I remind you that you are arguing based on the English translation of the Bible.

The Bible (New Testament) was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Then it was translated to Greek.

And then it was translated into Latin (the Latin Nugget) by St Jerome.

Then from Latin it was translated to English.

Now, when people who have studied the Bible through all of its translations are telling you what a passage means, you are grandstanding based only of your understanding of what King James translated and handed to you?

OAM4J

Penguin2:
Now, justify how Jesus Christ could have been without Original Sin if the woman that bore him had Original Sin.

As one of Adam's BIOLOGICAL children Mary is a sinner but the child in her womb is holy because she didn't conceive through natural procedures.

Jesus himself answered this question:

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman with the people there called out to him, “Blessings from God belong to the woman who gave birth to you and fed you!” But Jesus said, “The people who hear the teaching of God and obey it—they are the ones who have God’s blessing.” Luke 11:27-28

From the above we realized that Mary was not holy in fact she took Jesus' siblings along to accuse Jesus of madness {Mark 3:21} she kept taking them up and down to stop Jesus from living a life that doesn't make sense to her and the family! Matthew 12:46-50

But she later became part of the holy ones when she became a believer in her son because she declared faith in Christ Jesus after remembering all that happened during Jesus' birth and what the scriptures said about the Christ of course the rest of her children abandoned her because that's what the Jews concluded doing for anyone who professed faith in Jesus {John 9:22} that is why Jesus later told John to cater for Mary as his own mother in the faith! John 19:26-27

It was after his resurrection that Jesus showed himself to his brother James who later became a disciple too along with Judas another brother of Jesus {Matthew 13:55} the rest of Mary's children never became believers!

Translation of God's word was done by humans like you and i but it's the fruit of each religion that proves whether they are for Christ or against Christ {Matthew 7:16-18} if a translation is pure those using it should be able to fulfill what God promised in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4 and repeated in the Bible book of Micah 4:1-3

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s Temple will be the highest of all mountains. It will be raised higher than the hills. There will be a steady stream of people from all nations going there. People from many places will go there and say, “Come, let’s go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the Temple of the God of Jacob. Then God will teach us his way of living, and we will follow him.” His teaching, the Lord’s message, will begin in Jerusalem on Mount Zion and will go out to all the world. Then God will act as judge to end arguments between nations. He will decide what is right for people from many lands. They will stop using their weapons for war. They will hammer their swords into plows and use their spears to make tools for harvesting. All fighting between nations will end. They will never again train for war.

This is what students of the Bible need to do with the books if they understood its message for real!

Penguin2:
If Jesus was referring to Him being Christ as the Rock, why did He first identify Simon Peter before talking about the Rock?

Again, need I remind you that you are arguing based on the English translation of the Bible.

The Bible (New Testament) was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Then it was translated to Greek.

And then it was translated into Latin (the Latin Nugget) by St Jerome.

Then from Latin it was translated to English.

Now, when people who have studied the Bible through all of its translations are telling you what a passage means, you are grandstanding based only of your understanding of what King James translated and handed to you?

OAM4J

Penguin2:
Take it slowly; one step at a time.

Now, you believe in the powers of God to breathe Jesus into Mary without the sperm of Joseph but you don’t believe in the power of the same God to purify the abode of Christ for 9 months?

It will be a principality level of fallacy and the witchcraft level of cognitive bias to believe mary's womb purified Jesus...

the reason is simple.... The divinity of jesus is already a recorded fact and that's why Joseph was not needed in the equation...

The reason Jesus Christ had to come in flesh and blood is also already a recorded fact... Other wise he would have appeared from the sky just as he would be returning....??

So ...so his divinity couldn't have started during embryogenesis....

Okay....did the womb of Mary also confer on jesus the power to forgive sins, heal and do all the miracles?? ...or u are just cherry picking what the womb did??

Lets look it from the angle of fallen angels with more than human abilities crossing with humans to birth progenies with extra ordinary phenotype.....are u now saying the women the lay with had to have holy womb to produce those heavenly attributes the angels carried ?? ...

See ehn....if putting a mother title and some sort of divinity tag on Mary makes u sleep well at night that you have both a heavenly mother and father....that fine......... But there is no recorded scriptural or revelational basis for it so much that y'all Catholics even kneel to her image and pray to her ...

Penguin2:
Why did God give you brains and logical abilities if you can’t use it to put 2 and 2 together?

It’s simple logic.

Because of the sin of Adam, every human born after Adam is corrupted by Original Sin.

But Jesus was without Original Sin.

Now, justify how Jesus Christ could have been without Original Sin if the woman that bore him had Original Sin.

How was Jesus’ humanity not corrupted by Mary’s impurity.

Bear in mind the biology of pregnancy and childbirth; the fact that the foetus survives for 9 months in the womb sustaining from whatever is passed to him through the bloodstream of the mother.

Your brain and logic would have told you this is an invalid argument (off point /change of Post) because you have changed the argument from Mary to Jesus.

But just to cast this rubbish aside even though it is invalid I will lightly address it.

First, humanity and foetus is from the corruption of sex, sperm and egg whereas Jesus bypassed this procedure and was implanted Holy and the first case of surrogacy.

So, Jesus is Holy and Mary is not because He bypassed the process of corruption while she did not as she was born of sex. So the difference is clear.

Dtruthspeaker:
Your brain and logic would have told you this is an invalid argument (off point /change of Post) because you have changed the argument from Mary to Jesus.

But just to cast this rubbish aside even though it is invalid I will lightly address it.

First, humanity and foetus is from the corruption of sex, sperm and egg whereas Jesus bypassed this procedure and was implanted Holy and the first case of surrogacy.

So, Jesus is Holy and Mary is not because He bypassed the process of corruption while she did not as she was born of sex. So the difference is clear.

So Mary was not human and the process of development of the child does not involve anything from the woman/mother?

advanceDNA:
It will be a principality level of fallacy and the witchcraft level of cognitive bias to believe mary's womb purified Jesus...

the reason is simple.... The divinity of jesus is already a recorded fact and that's why Joseph was not needed in the equation...

The reason Jesus Christ had to come in flesh and blood is also already a recorded fact... Other wise he would have appeared from the sky just as he would be returning....??

So ...so his divinity couldn't have started during embryogenesis....

Okay....did the womb of Mary also confer on jesus the power to forgive sins, heal and do all the miracles?? ...or u are just cherry picking what the womb did??

Lets look it from the angle of fallen angels with more than human abilities crossing with humans to birth progenies with extra ordinary phenotype.....are u now saying the women the lay with had to have holy womb to produce those heavenly attributes the angels carried ?? ...

See ehn....if putting a mother title and some sort of divinity tag on Mary makes u sleep well at night that you have both a heavenly mother and father....that fine......... But there is no recorded scriptural or revelational basis for it so much that y'all Catholics even kneel to her image and pray to her ...

Don’t jumble things together so you don’t confuse yourself?

Where did I say Mary’s womb purified Jesus?

The line of argument has been that Mary was made holy so as not to corrupt the humanity of Christ which would have automatically vitiated his divinity.

Don’t mix things up.

chimex38:
Was Particular on new Testament.

Mary's a role model for Girls, Ladies and women.
Ruth and Naomi as well.

It's significant that Elizabeth called her "Blessed amongst women"..
I respect Catholics for bringing someone out young ladies can model..

It is wrong for anyone to kneel to a statue as an act of worship. But they claim its honor and just as the Yorubas prostrate in honor worship and respect of fathers and elders.

I understand the tendency to "worship". The wordings of their prayers suggest otherwise; an intersession. If one feels unworthy(sinful) to communicate to God directly(low faith).
Helps to build the Faith of the doubtful.
Some of us meet our Pastors when in distress or when we feel our faith isn't strong enough to intercede for us and pray to God on our behalf..


I don't have a problem if others bring out Esther, Naomi and Ruth as well as role models for girls. They are less talked about in Bible schools.
But Catholics talks about Mary a lot and it connects to young girls and women.

Jesus would always look like a father figure to girls about 9-15yrs old reading the Bible.
They may not be able to relate with male gender stories and applying it to their female roles. and will look to righteous females who depict womanhood they can model after.

It is worthy of note that praying through Mary as an intersession isn't compulsory for Catholics. It's a matter of choice. You will notice it's mostly the female folks.
Most still pray directly to Jesus or God as the Spirit leads.

Can you give an example of someone praying to Mary and where the bible teaches that Apostles who have died can intercede for us in prayer.

techWriter001:
It seems like some pals are still stuck in the dark ages when it comes to understanding the Catholic Church's practices. Newsflash: just because something isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean it's not rooted in tradition or apostolic teachings. And by the way, if you're going to diss the Catholic Church, at least have the decency to educate yourself on its history and doctrine.

Where can we get the Apostlic teachings today?

Penguin2:
Jesus Christ was both Man and God because he had flesh, lived with men, ate the foods they ate, had feelings also, etc.

The only thing different between Jesus and the rest of men is that he had no Original Sin.

Now, justify how it was possible for Jesus Christ to have been born without Original Sin if the womb that carried her for 9 months and whose breast milk He suckled had Original Sin.

What is the original sin?

Penguin2:
Should I take it to mean therefore that you are saying the Bible is lying in Mathew 16:16 where Jesus told Peter that upon him He will build His church?

And also, the Acts of the Apostles is also lying for saying that after the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles at the Pentecost, Peter, as leader, came out and addressed the crowd?

So is Peter the Head of the church?

Truthseeker10:
So is Peter the Head of the church?

God is the eternal head of the church.

But Jesus left the church on earth in Peter’s leadership.


But if you say it’s not Peter then who?