₦airaland Forum

Haydens:
You have just crushed him totally, he won't have any reply to give.

Good work you did there.

The protestants wear apron thinking that it'll protect them from evil charms or bullets while their daddy's G. O's go about with police and security guards to guard them but you won't see the catholic putting eyes on their matter.

Nonsense and Tinubu.

Truthseeker10:
So you mean that while Mary was alive, people requested things from Jesus through Mary? If yes, where is Mary today and how can we request things from Jesus through her?

2)Is there a biblical record of people requesting things from Jesus through Mary after Jesus and Mary died?

I believe she's in heaven.

As for me, when one feels short cuz of either low_faith or misdeeds or unanswered prayers from Jesus, I quote aspects of the Bible where she interceded for people and ask for her help through her intercession to Jesus as part of my prayers.
It's a matter of believe.

Question 2) I replied to someone through the thread on generations and genealogy.

MaxInDHouse:
There is no single religion on planet earth that doesn't have scriptures they can quote in support of whatever they are doing in fact TERRORISTS, WITCHES, PROSTITUTES and all have somewhere to quote in support of their beliefs it's just that it is not what Jesus COMMANDED Christians!🙂

You can tag it any name you want; bold and color it if you wish.
But I believe there are so many ways to pray, provided it's biblically backed and it leads to Jesus🙂

chimex38:
You can tag it any name you want; bold and color it if you wish.
But I believe there are so many ways to pray, provided it's biblically backed and it leads to Jesus🙂

Ọmọ continue with your ideology after all you can see what Jesus himself commanded his disciples in the Bible!😂

chimex38:
I believe she's in heaven.

As for me, when one feels short cuz of either low_faith or misdeeds or unanswered prayers from Jesus, I quote aspects of the Bible where she interceded for people and ask for her help through her intercession to Jesus as part of my prayers.
It's a matter of believe.

So before Mary died how did people request things from Jesus when he went to heaven?

Question 2) I replied to someone through the thread on generations and genealogy.

How does Generation and genealogy answer if anyone in the bible requested things from Jesus through Mary when she and Jesus died?

chimex38:
Yes.. You are correct, we as Christians still practice the old law in a way. But If you go through our discuss, he made a rhetoric comment that necessitated the reply in context.

@bolded
However, my comment was also specific in context: "as it is".

Yes I saw it and his response was accurate against your point which is why I also jumped in to point out your fall.

chimex38:
Ruth Ester and Naomi has been answered here.
Point to contents that show worship and I will rebuke them as well. They call it honor and Jesus and God are always at the centre of such activities.

Haven't you heard how they chant Mary like babalawos do when they are praying that babalawo bead called rosary?

Do you not see that they chant her praise 10 times in 3minutes, about 100 times a set in the prayers they manufactured for her?

Then, the very worst one is the "Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve...

And then to finish it patapata we have the litany which starts with this

"Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven,
Have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
Have mercy on us.
God the Holy Ghost,
Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God,
Have mercy on us.

See how short the above part which I think Christians would say is in order. Compare with the below

Holy Mary,
pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins,
pray for us.
Mother of Christ,
pray for us.
Mother of divine grace,
pray for us.
Mother most pure,
pray for us.
Mother most chaste,
pray for us.
Mother inviolate,
pray for us.
Mother undefiled,
pray for us.
amiable,
pray for us.
Mother most admirable,
pray for us.
Mother of good counsel,
pray for us.
Mother of our Creator,
pray for us.
Mother of our Savior,
pray for us.
Virgin most prudent,
pray for us.
Virgin most venerable,
pray for us.
Virgin most renowned,
pray for us.
Virgin most powerful,
pray for us.
Virgin most merciful,
pray for us.
Virgin most faithful,
pray for us.
Mirror of justice,
pray for us.
Seat of wisdom,
pray for us.
Cause of our joy,
pray for us.
Spiritual vessel,
pray for us.
Vessel of honor,
pray for us.
Singular vessel of devotion,
pray for us.
Mystical rose,
pray for us.
Tower of David,
pray for us.
Tower of ivory,
pray for us.
House of gold,
pray for us.
Ark of the Covenant,
pray for us.
Gate of Heaven,
pray for us.
Morning star,
pray for us.
Health of the sick,
pray for us.
Refuge of sinners,
pray for us.
Comforter of the afflicted,
pray for us.
Help of Christians,
pray for us.
Queen of angels,
pray for us.
Queen of patriarchs,
pray for us.
Queen of prophets,
pray for us.
Queen of apostles,
pray for us.
Queen of martyrs,
pray for us.
Queen of confessors,
pray for us.
Queen of virgins,
pray for us.
Queen of all saints,
pray for us.
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
pray for us.
Queen assumed into Heaven,
pray for us.
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
pray for us.
Queen of peace
,I am just even noting this one. Jesus is even Prince of peace, but they have made her Queen. Which means that she is greater even greater than Him, as she is greater than angels. Is this not idolatry and blasphemy? Judge for yourself

Dtruthspeaker:
Yes I saw it and his response was accurate against your point which is why I also jumped in to point out your fall.

seems you are not just reading to understand, you seem not to be reading at all, yet you say you saw his response.
I never said we are not practicing the old law
I said practicing "AS IT IS"
Based on your reply, I even quoted my quote in bold letters as well as used quotation marks.
(I will do it a second time).
[quote author=chimex38 post=137352920]It's probably because we no longer practice the old law as it is.
you keep taking me back to my comments
Relax no be fight na discuss..

chimex38:
seems you are not just reading to understand, you seem not to be reading at all, yet you say you saw his response.
I never said we are not practicing the old law
I said practicing "AS IT IS"
Based on your reply, I even quoted my quote in bold letters as well as used quotation marks.
(I will do it a second time).

The "as it is" not the issue but to call out your wrong attempt to explain and counter the impropriety of worshipping dead Mary as it is improper to worship Moses. So, it is not the "as it is"

Penguin2:
Now my question comes back.

Tell us how Jesus Christ was not corrupted by Original Sin if the woman that bore her had Original Sin.

Since you want Bible to tell you everything.

It's evident you have no idea of what Original Sin means.

Original Sin means we inherited A NATURE that us prone to sin.

Mary womb or breast milk has nothing to do in human formation, womb is just a container where it takes place.

I believe the X & Y chromosome that formed JESUS human is the miracle The HOLY SPIRIT performed when visited Mary because both X&Y chromosome must come together first.

In today's world this act is called SURROGATE.

Which means the woman who carried the pregnancy never has anything in common with the baby as they can't have a match DNA.

Jesus Himself said "what goes into a man isn't what defiles a man" which means even when Jesus sucking the breasts of Mary as baby, that can't defile Him.

chimex38:
Why I brought it up was to show its correlation to the question that it couldn't have been stated in the NT because the NT was limited in timeline post-Christ.
Nevertheless Rev12 strongly points to Mary as the woman and thus why she is honored by them at least. Unless probably you have a different interpretation.

I don't think Revelation 12 is talking about Mary for John was after the birth and resurrection of Jesus and by chapter 1, he said he was talking about things to come.

chimex38:
..The point is:
Humans relate to God closely with previous humans who were seen as close to God as possible and almost guaranteed to have made heaven as well.
They create a form of associated or phrase to that effect to connect themselves to the Supreme Being( God)
Supreme Being sent Jesus as an ideal model, humans who fall short still associate with holy ones who came close to this ideal model both physically, and spiritually with biblical proof. Mary was one of them alongside apostles

Your example say "God of Abraham, Issac...
But are the Catholics saying God of Mary?
No!

So, you see, it does not correlate

Emusan:
It's evident you have no idea of what Original Sin means...

They know. it is this half -Truth part of their jujuism that is deceiving them.

Queen of angels,
pray for us.
Queen of patriarchs,
pray for us.
Queen of prophets,
pray for us.
Queen of apostles,
pray for us.
Queen of martyrs,
pray for us.
Queen of confessors,
pray for us.
Queen of virgins,
pray for us.
Queen of all saints,
pray for us.
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
pray for us.

Dtruthspeaker:
Haven't you heard how they chant Mary like babalawos do when they are praying that babalawo bead called rosary?

Do you not see that they chant her praise 10 times in 3minutes, about 100 times a set in the prayers they manufactured for her?

Then, the very worst one is the "Hail, Holy Queen, Mother o Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve...


See how short the above part which I think Christians would say is in order. Compare with the below

Holy Mary,
pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins,
pray for us.
Mother of Christ,
pray for us.
Mother of divine grace,
pray for us.
Mother most pure,
pray for us.
Mother most chaste,
pray for us.
Mother inviolate,
pray for us.
Mother undefiled,
pray for us.
amiable,
pray for us.
Mother most admirable,
pray for us.
Mother of good counsel,
pray for us.
Mother of our Creator,
pray for us.
Mother of our Savior,
pray for us.
Virgin most prudent,
pray for us.
Virgin most venerable,
pray for us.
Virgin most renowned,
pray for us.
Virgin most powerful,
pray for us.
Queen of peace,I am just even noting this one. Jesus is even Prince of peace, but they have made her Queen. Which means that she is greater even greater than Him. Is this not idolatry and blasphemy?

babalawos
I see the issue is still the wordings "pray for us". Just like in. Our discuss thus far,
In this context you itemised, I will prefer they says pray for us [b]to God/the Lord[/b] which is the context they will tell you if you ask for explanation rather than just
"pray for us.".which doesn't help their Ministry. it adds to why people see them as worshipping Mary.

(as someone said it's to shorten the words as they "chant".)

On the issue of queen of peace.
First and foremost Jesus is the Prince of Peace.
Her Queen of peace is still taken to be below Jesus's Prince of peace.
It's the way you tend to see it as rivalry to Jesus which is not.
One could also call Jesus King of Peace. If it suits your Faith and psyche.
There's no other female figure above her, hence Queen and mother is usually used.
But for Jesus who has Father in heaven, Prince and Son is often used.
I don't think It relegates Jesus and elevates Mary.


I just searched through the full "Hail holy Queen" Chant from google.
Banished children of eve signifies when God casted Adam and Eve from Eden.
Since the whole essence was to honor or elevate Mary as a kind of mother or woman figure; "eve" was used rather than Adam.
What again is the crux of the prayer.

Imagine girls and daughters with 80-90% of those "Chanting" qualities from infancy.
Won't the world be a better place even if by 1% .

Dtruthspeaker:
Your example say "God of Abraham, Issac...
But are the Catholics saying God of Mary?
No!

So, you see, it does not correlate

Yes.. Correct. I know you would reply in these manner.
But that's the closest reason I could relate from the Bible.
It's more of a human association.

chimex38:
Yes.. Correct. I know you would reply in these manner.
But that's the closest reason I could relate from the Bible.
It's more of a human association.

So you see, here you were trying to use a square peg to fit a round hole but it could not work because it was not True.

Dtruthspeaker:
The "as it is" not the issue but to call out your wrong attempt to explain and counter the impropriety of worshipping dead Mary as it is improper to worship Moses. So, it is not the "as it is"

https://www.nairaland.com/post/137354188
This is an extract from my Post

chimex38:
It's probably because we no longer practice the old law as it is.
........
.....

This was your reply to it

Dtruthspeaker:
You are still practicing the supposed old law, eg your temple configurations and priests robes, is it not trying to imitate the Levite priests? Or does your church not teach and uphold the 10 commandments?.

No one has escaped being under what you call old law.

and you say "as it is" doesn't make a difference?
even after I said "correct" meaning i agreed with your last statement?


@MaxInDHouse made a rhetorical question while passing his message across which I fully understood he didn't literally mean.
I also attempted rhetorical response while passing my thoughts across. If you read the response in context , I am sure you will see I didn't mean it literally.
but you took it literally and couldn't express yourself initially, typing sth else, which I pointed out, yet you don't want to acknowledge it, Now you outburst spewing more of what you initially believe rather than acknowledging the difference "as it is" makes in your follow up response.

and you resurrected the discuss by quoting me from a reply to someone else after over 1 week ago in the first place.

I can see your trigger is getting the best of you.

I rest my case with you on this.
Peace✌

chimex38:
@MaxInDHouse made a rhetorical question while passing his message across which I fully understood he didn't literally mean.

Nobody prayed to God in any other name throughout the Bible apart from Jesus name.
So tell your Catholic people that what they're doing is wrong!

chimex38:
babalawos
I see the issue is still the wordings "pray for us". Just like in. Our discuss thus far,
In this context you itemised, I will prefer they says pray for us to God/the Lord which is the context they will tell you if you ask for explanation rather than just
"pray for us.".which doesn't help their Ministry. it adds to why people see them as worshipping Mary.

(as someone said it's to shorten the words as they "chant".)

You are still trying to change the argument.

The issue is not pray for us or pray for us to God/the Lord.

The issue is you said "They call it honor and Jesus and God are always at the centre of such activities." and then I asked you to judge the shortened version of the whole prayer to Mary.

So, stop being deceitful by always trying to change the argument. Every time you resort to this act of deception and diversionary tactics it just proves that you yourself know that it is not defendable so you are trying to cheat craftily.

chimex38:
On the issue of queen of peace.
First and foremost Jesus is the Prince of Peace.
Her Queen of peace is still taken to be below Jesus's Prince of peace.

It's the way you tend to see it as rivalry to Jesus which is not..

Is a queen below a prince?
No!

chimex38:
One could also call Jesus King of Peace. If it suits your Faith and psyche.

Off point. Another diversionary tactics

But to kick this fallacy, you yourself have seen that no one in Christendom says so as ever Christian understands that Jesus's Father, is The King of Peace!

So off Point and invalid and your lack of passing judgment on the propriety of this chant proves that you yourself can see that it is out of order .

chimex38:
There's no other female figure above her, hence Queen and mother is usually used.

But for Jesus who has Father in heaven, Prince and Son is often used.
I don't think It relegates Jesus and elevates Mary..

You say no other female above her yet a queen is higher than both males and females and a mother is higher than her children as a Father is higher than the son as Jesus Himself upheld in the, so you are wrong and this is invalid and you even know it but you are just trying to defend an indefensible thing.

And you cannot and no one can because "there is no valid argument against the Truth".

chimex38:
I just searched through the full "Hail holy Queen" Chant from google.
Banished children of eve signifies when God casted Adam and Eve from Eden.

Off point!

chimex38:
Since the whole essence was to honor or elevate Mary as a kind of mother or woman figure; "eve" was used rather than Adam.
What again is the crux of the prayer.

Ehen! You see it. You have confessed what the world accuses you people for. You people have elevated her to the status of a god upto the point of praying to her and even creating beads and an alter to her. The very same thing pagans do.

Imagine girls and daughters with 80-90% of those "Chanting" qualities from infancy.
Won't the world be a better place even if by 1% .

And here you confess that you are indeed chanting all the godship you people have given to her.

And of course you know that it is not just girls and daughters alone who do it but grown men and boys too.

And since when did chanting change your girls and daughters? Does this world say go to Catholic church to get virgin girls and good wife?

No.

So, invalid response.

And besides this is Off Point.

So in the end, even could not deny that this babalawoism to Mary is out gravely out of line and even the portions you tried to use to defend it, does not hold.

So you see, there is no valid argument against the Truth

chimex38:
https://www.nairaland.com/post/137354188
This is an extract from my Post

This was your reply to it

and you say "as it is" doesn't make a difference?
even after I said "correct" meaning i agreed with your last statement?

@MaxInDHouse made a rhetorical question while passing his message across which I fully understood he didn't literally mean.
I also attempted rhetorical response while passing my thoughts across. If you read the response in context , I am sure you will see I didn't mean it literally.
but you took it literally and couldn't express yourself initially, typing sth else, which I pointed out, yet you don't want to acknowledge it, Now you outburst spewing more of what you initially believe rather than acknowledging the difference "as it is" makes in your follow up response.

and you resurrected the discuss by quoting me from a reply to someone else after over 1 week ago in the first place.

I can see your trigger is getting the best of you.

I rest my case with you on this.
Peace✌

Clearly you saw I did not know whether you were still opposing Max's response and that is why you said "correct" thereby putting my response to rest and thereby admitting the implementation of both I and Max's point which is your cannot counter the impropriety of worshipping dead Mary as it is improper to worship dead Moses. It's as simple as that.

Penguin2:
1) The Apostles didn’t pray Rosary to Mary.

Answer:
Mary lived with the Apostles, so, why did they need to pray to her when she was living and communing with them? Maybe the Protestants should educate us where Mary was ever disrespected by the Apostles or called an envelope like their theology teaches.

Therefore you Admit that they never did such a thing despite your fallacious arguments.

Penguin2:
2) The Apostles didn’t pray to the dead.

Answer:
I believe that by praying to the dead they have the Catholics’ reverence for saints in mind.

Now I have a question. Are we, Christians of today, in same pedestal with the Apostles who suffered persecution with Jesus Christ and even suffered martyrdom in some cases in their bid to propagate the gospel that we now know today?

The Catholic Church reverence these people, Peter, Paul, Mathew, James, John, etc, for the role they played in enduring the persecution of early days of Christianity to preserve the gospel. It’s similar to same way we Nigerians honour Sir Herbert Macaulay, Nnamdi Azikiwe, Obafemi Awolowo and Ahmadu Bello for roles they played in ensuring we gained independence from the British. Now, can anyone tell me what is wrong with such honour?

Reverence is not "pray to".

So in the end you confirm that the apostles did not do these

Penguin2:
3) The Apostles didn’t do satanic processions.

Answer:
What is satanic in procession?

Again, how did the Wall of Jericho fall? Joshua got the Israelites to “process” around the wall of the city until he blew the trumpet and the wall came down.

Now, if Joshua and the Israelites processed, what is satanic about procession?

Pagans like oro festivals and satanists do processions, so therefore you say that their processions are not satanic because Joshua processed around Jericho?

Penguin2:
4). The Apostles didn’t go to Mass.

Answer:
This is the most laughable of all the claims because at the Last Supper, Jesus Christ broke bread and blessed wine and gave it to His disciples with strict command, “Do this in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor 11:23-26)

Again, the Acts of the Apostle is replete with the Apostles coming together to break bread and share communion which was where Stephen was appointed the first ever Deacon to assist with coordination of the event. (Acts 6:1-15)

This coming together of the Apostles and disciples is what the Catholic Church has sustained till today in the Mass, and some people dare condemn it?

Thank you admit that it was a "supper". So since when did dinner and dinning become a mass whatever that word means?

Even before and after Jesus's last supper, they had other suppers in different places, are those places also called mass?

Penguin2:
5). The Apostles didn’t wear Scapular

Answer:
Says someone who is most probably hanging the image of his Daddy GO in both his car and his home.

When would the traducers of the Catholic understand that these iconoclasms are intended to preserve the images of the Jesus, Mary and the Apostles in the minds of Christians?

And yes, if you believe that the image of your Daddy GO can scare away the devil and keep bad energies away, we also believe that the images of Jesus and Mary (Scapular), the origin of our faith, can do even much more in scaring the devil and keep bad energies away.

Tu quoque Fallacy. Also, you admit that they did not wear scapulas

Let me stop here for I tire.

Penguin2:
The way your village people bury someone that dies in your village, which book prescribed that they should be doing the burial that way and not incinerate the corpse and pack the ashes like Indians?

So you admit that it is truly a pagan burial.

Softmirror:
In a nut shell, that is a Roman Pagan tradition. Case closed.

Oh, you even told him.

MaxInDHouse:
Nobody prayed to God in any other name throughout the Bible apart from Jesus name.
So tell your Catholic people that what they're doing is wrong!

We can agree to disagree ✌

Dtruthspeaker:
.

If you think "as it is" doesn't validate this your response even after pointing it out that it supports your last statement and even your first,
Then it's either you prove it or you rightly acknowledge this.
Otherwise, probably your ego is getting the better part of you and your trigger is getting heightened and we can't have any further discuss. I didn't force you to engage in the first place.
Otherwise, we can always agree to disagree.
Peace ✌

chimex38:
We can agree to disagree ✌

That's not what Jesus taught us it's either YES or NO.
So is there any verse in the Bible where people pray to God through another name apart from Jesus?

You can either choose YES or NO!

Trying to manipulate matters after seeing things clearly comes from Satan! Matthew 5:37

Maximus692:
That's not what Jesus taught us it's either YES or NO.
So is there any verse in the Bible where people pray to God through another name apart from Jesus?

You can either choose YES or NO!

Trying to manipulate matters after seeing things clearly comes from Satan! Matthew 5:37

I have answered before.
question-context.
On main discuss, I don't think one answer invalidates the other. its a question of believe.

Besides that verse is for "swears";it doesn't seem relevant here as no one is swearing. you are the one that seem to be manipulating to me.

Maximus692:
That's not what Jesus taught us it's either YES or NO.
So is there any verse in the Bible where people pray to God through another name apart from Jesus?

You can either choose YES or NO!

Trying to manipulate matters after seeing things clearly comes from Satan! Matthew 5:37

On a second thought:
Answer this, then you may have my answer as well.
A brethren calls another brethen to pray for him.
So is it allowed for a brethren to pray to God through the intercession(prayers) of another brethren rather than praying directly?
YES OR NO(Matthew 5:37)

chimex38:
I have answered before.
question-context.
On main discuss, I don't think one answer invalidates the other. its a question of believe.
Besides that verse is for "swears";it doesn't seem relevant here as no one is swearing. you are the one that seem to be manipulating to me.

Beliefs are supposed to be based only on what Jesus taught!

chimex38:
On a second thought:
Answer this, then you may have my answer as well.
A brethren calls another brethen to pray for him.
So is it allowed for a brethren to pray to God through the intercession(prayers) of another brethren rather than praying directly?
YES OR NO(Matthew 5:37)

NO!

MaxInDHouse:
NO!

Interesting.
So I can't tell you to pray for me?

MaxInDHouse:
Beliefs are supposed to be based only on what Jesus taught!

That's your belief.
I also believe it's also based on whats obtainable in the bible as well especially as regards to Jesus!.