₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
in your opinion, what is evil?

Evil is anything that causes unnecessary harm or suffering

KBdownloads:
Isaiah 45:7 says:
“I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.”

I’m genuinely interested in how Christians can read this passage and still claim that their God is a good God. The verse explicitly has God claiming responsibility for not only good but also for evil.

If God created evil, how can he still be called a good God?

At the very least, this verse challenges the idea that God is purely good. It raises the possibility that the suffering and atrocities in the world ultimately originate from God himself, with Satan serving as a convenient scapegoat to preserve God’s image.

The concept of good and evil as it applies to human behaviour doesn't necessarily apply to the one true GOD

KBdownloads:
Evil is anything that causes unnecessary harm or suffering

I am still waiting for your answers to the questions raised from your own words or it is clear that you appreciate that you have not spoken well at all.

KBdownloads:
Evil is anything that causes unnecessary harm or suffering

Is this your definition a personal opinion or a universal definition?

So can you point where the God of the bible caused unnecessary harm or suffering?

Truthseeker10:
Is this your definition a personal opinion or a universal definition?

So can you point where the God of the bible caused unnecessary harm or suffering?

That's a widely accepted definition across any moral framework. Just to name a few biblical examples: 1. the flood destroyed nearly all of humanity including infants and innocent animals who had committed no sin, 2. the plagues of Egypt caused widespread suffering including the deaths of firstborn children for pharaoh's actions, 3. God allowed satan to kill Job's children and inflict terrible suffering on him as a bet.

In each of these cases, God had the power to achieve his goals without inflicting such suffering. The harm caused was therefore unnecessary, which by definition makes it evil.

KBdownloads:
That's a widely accepted definition across any moral framework.

Which authority has this moral framework of your definition of evil?

Just to name a few biblical examples: 1. the flood destroyed nearly all of humanity including infants and innocent animals who had committed no sin,

Did God prevent the people from entering the ark that was built for their survival?

You mean you killing animals that means that you are evil?

2. the plagues of Egypt caused widespread suffering including the deaths of firstborn children for pharaoh's actions,

Why did God cause a plague on the Egyptians?

. God allowed satan to kill Job's children and inflict terrible suffering on him as a bet.

You mean allowing someone to exercise free will is evil?[/quote]You mean allowing someone to exercise is freewill is evil?

Truthseeker10:
Which authority has this moral framework of your definition of evil?

It's derived from basic principles nearly all humans recognize: causing unnecessary suffering is wrong. If you disagree, then tell me, do you think causing unnecessary harm is good? Every moral and legal system whether religious or secular condemns unjustified harm.

Truthseeker10:
Did God prevent the people from entering the ark that was built for their survival?

You mean you killing animals that means that you are evil?

What sin did infants commit? What moral sin did animals commit? An all powerful God didn't need to drown anyone, he could have used any of infinite other methods. Killing was a choice, not a necessity.

And no, a human killing animals for food or survival isn't the same as an omnipotent God choosing mass drowning when infinite alternatives exist.

Truthseeker10:
Why did God cause a plague on the Egyptians?

Because Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go, yet Exodus 9:12 explicitly states 'the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.'' God caused Pharaoh's stubbornness, then punished innocent Egyptian children for it. He forced Pharoah to refuse, then killed innocent children for the refusal.

Truthseeker10:
You mean allowing someone to exercise free will is evil?

So because God gave satan free will to murder Jobs' children that makes it okay? By that logic, we shouldn't stop any murderer because we'd be violating their free will. And this wasn't even about free will, God gave Satan PERMISSION to kill Job's children as part of a bet. God could have said no.

KBdownloads:
It's derived from basic principles nearly all humans recognize: causing unnecessary suffering is wrong. If you disagree, then tell me, do you think causing unnecessary harm is good? Every moral and legal system whether religious or secular condemns unjustified harm.

Why do all humans not recognize this your principles?

What sin did infants commit? What moral sin did animals commit? An all powerful God didn't need to drown anyone, he could have used any of infinite other methods. Killing was a choice, not a necessity.

And no, a human killing animals for food or survival isn't the same as an omnipotent God choosing mass drowning when infinite alternatives exist.

I simply asked you a question. Did God prevent any of the humans then from entering the ark?

Do animals have morality to commit sin because your question about what sin they committed makes me wonder.

Kindly describe these your infinite methods that you are describing and tell me why you have the authority to tell a creator what decisions to.make about his creations.

Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go, yet Exodus 9:12 explicitly states 'the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.'' God caused Pharaoh's stubbornness, then punished innocent Egyptian children for it. He forced Pharoah to refuse, then killed innocent children for the refusal.

If your interpretation of Exodus 9:12 is correct, explain Exodus 6:1.



New International Version
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh: Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country.”

So because God gave satan free will to murder Jobs' children that makes it okay? By that logic, we shouldn't stop any murderer because we'd be violating their free will. And this wasn't even about free will, God gave Satan PERMISSION to kill Job's children as part of a bet. God could have said no.

What claim did Satan make about Job before God allowed Satan to use his freewill?

Truthseeker10:
Why do all humans not recognize this your principles?

Because psychopaths and sadists exist. Just because a few people do not recognize basic morality doesn't invalidate it. Every legal system punishes murder, torture, and unjustified harm. If you think causing unnecessary suffering is acceptable, then you're in a tiny minority, and you'd need to defend that position rather than just questioning mine.

Truthseeker10:
I simply asked you a question. Did God prevent any of the humans then from entering the ark?

Whether God prevented them from entering is irrelevant, an omnipotent God didn't need to drown anyone in the first place.

Truthseeker10:
Do animals have morality to commit sin because your question about what sin they committed makes me wonder.

No, animals don't have morality, which is exactly my point. They couldn't have sinned, yet God killed them anyway. You've just admitted they were innocent victims.

Truthseeker10:
Kindly describe these your infinite methods that you are describing and tell me why you have the authority to tell a creator what decisions to.make about his creations.

He could have prevented the wicked from being born, changed their hearts instantly (like he did with Pharaoh but in reverse) or caused peaceful deaths rather than drowning.

I don't need authority to point out when killing innocent people is wrong. If I see someone murdering children and say that's evil, I don't need to have authority to make that moral judgment. You're claiming God is above moral scrutiny, which means you can't defend his actions on their merits.

Truthseeker10:
If your interpretation of Exodus 9:12 is correct, explain Exodus 6:1.

New International Version
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh: Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country.”

Exodus 6:1 is God's prediction, not a contradiction. God knew he would harden Pharaoh's heart (which he does multiple times: Exodus 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10), then uses that as justification for the plagues. The fact that God predicted the outcome doesn't change the fact that he caused Pharaoh's resistance. He manufactured the situation to demonstrate his power through suffering.

Truthseeker10:
What claim did Satan make about Job before God allowed Satan to use his freewill?

Satan claimed Job only served God because of his blessings. And so? God already knew Job's heart, he's supposed to be omniscient. He didn't need to prove anything through a test. And even if he did, why did Job's innocent children have to die to prove a point? They were killed as collateral damage in a bet. That's evil regardless of Satan's claim.

KBdownloads:
Because psychopaths and sadists exist. Just because a few people do not recognize basic morality doesn't invalidate it. Every legal system punishes murder, torture, and unjustified harm. If you think causing unnecessary suffering is acceptable, then you're in a tiny minority, and you'd need to defend that position rather than just questioning mine.

So if two adult male decide to involve in sexual conduct between themselves voluntarily, is that evil?

Whether God prevented them from entering is irrelevant, an omnipotent God didn't need to drown anyone in the first place.


No, animals don't have morality, which is exactly my point. They couldn't have sinned, yet God killed them anyway. You've just admitted they were innocent victims.

lol...you are funny...God provided an ark and the people did not enter and you blame God for their own personal decisions when they had a choice?

Lol...you are so funny as regards the animals....you Claim animals do not possess morality....yet you claim they are innocent and not guilty. Na wa oo

He could have prevented the wicked from being born, changed their hearts instantly (like he did with Pharaoh but in reverse) or caused peaceful deaths rather than drowning.

I don't need authority to point out when killing innocent people is wrong. If I see someone murdering children and say that's evil, I don't need to have authority to make that moral judgment. You're claiming God is above moral scrutiny, which means you can't defend his actions on their merits.

So you're telling us here that God should have forced people to do his bidding and not have freewill and that would be the good thing to do?

So you're telling us here that your person thoughts about a matter is the ultimate standard for good and evil?

Exodus 6:1 is God's prediction, not a contradiction. God knew he would harden Pharaoh's heart (which he does multiple times: Exodus 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10), then uses that as justification for the plagues. The fact that God predicted the outcome doesn't change the fact that he caused Pharaoh's resistance. He manufactured the situation to demonstrate his power through suffering

What did God predict in Genesis 6:1 that would make pharoah release his people?

Satan claimed Job only served God because of his blessings. And so? God already knew Job's heart, he's supposed to be omniscient. He didn't need to prove anything through a test. And even if he did, why did Job's innocent children have to die to prove a point? They were killed as collateral damage in a bet. That's evil regardless of Satan's claim.

If God was Omniscient and saw everything that humans will do even before they were created, How could humans really choose to love him?

KBdownloads:
Isaiah 45:7 says:
“I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.”

I’m genuinely interested in how Christians can read this passage and still claim that their God is a good God. The verse explicitly has God claiming responsibility for not only good but also for evil.

If God created evil, how can he still be called a good God?

At the very least, this verse challenges the idea that God is purely good. It raises the possibility that the suffering and atrocities in the world ultimately originate from God himself, with Satan serving as a convenient scapegoat to preserve God’s image.

the name GOD didn’t carry any prefix or suffix, it’s simply says GOD. If you have any issues with God, hypo is still very cheap, get like two sachets and take a gulp. When you arrive at hell, you can beg satan to give you chance to ask or challenge God.

I only answered you based on your mindset, I don’t mean to be harsh, thank you.

And next time, pls don’t just bring a verse of the Bible out to suit your ego.

Truthseeker10:
So if two adult male decide to involve in sexual conduct between themselves voluntarily, is that evil?



lol...you are funny...God provided an ark and the people did not enter and you blame God for their own personal decisions when they had a choice?

Lol...you are so funny as regards the animals....you Claim animals do not possess morality....yet you claim they are innocent and not guilty. Na wa oo



So you're telling us here that God should have forced people to do his bidding and not have freewill and that would be the good thing to do?

So you're telling us here that your person thoughts about a matter is the ultimate standard for good and evil?


What did God predict in Genesis 6:1 that would make pharoah release his people?


If God was Omniscient and saw everything that humans will do even before they were created, How could humans really choose to love him?

truth is, God didn’t beg to be loved. He is God, and when you understand this, you will stop stressing yourself. He gave you a free will to choose between life and death. Choose wisely. ✌️

KBdownloads:
Evil is anything that causes unnecessary harm or suffering

So, when one bandit mistakenly shoots another bandit unnecessarily, it is evil?

Or where a thief running away with your phone is knocked down, it is evil?

Truthseeker10:
..If God was Omniscient and saw everything that humans will do even before they were created, How could humans really choose to love him?

It is even the other way. If God saw everything that humans will do, would He love us?

That is, if any of us saw his friends wlll hate him and plot his murder, would we still love them?

Truthseeker10:
So if two adult male decide to involve in sexual conduct between themselves voluntarily, is that evil?

No, because there's no harm or suffering involved. Consensual actions between adults that don't cause harm aren't evil by my definition. You're trying to deflect by bringing up homosexuality, but this has nothing to do with our discussion about unnecessary suffering.

Truthseeker10:
lol...you are funny...God provided an ark and the people did not enter and you blame God for their own personal decisions when they had a choice?

You keep ignoring the core issue: an omnipotent God didn't need to use drowning at all. He could have achieved his goal without killing anyone. The 'they had a choice' argument doesn't address why an all-powerful God chose a method that required mass death when other options existed.

Truthseeker10:
Lol...you are so funny as regards the animals....you Claim animals do not possess morality....yet you claim they are innocent and not guilty. Na wa oo

Yes, that's exactly what innocent means, not guilty of moral wrongdoing. Animals can't sin because they have no moral agency, which makes them innocent by definition. You're playing word games instead of addressing the point: why did morally blameless creatures need to drown?

Truthseeker10:
So you're telling us here that God should have forced people to do his bidding and not have freewill and that would be the good thing to do?

God already violated free will when he hardened Pharaoh's heart. And the flood wasn't about free will, it was about punishing wickedness. God could have removed the wicked without drowning (peaceful death) and without touching anyone's free will. Drowning was not the only option that preserved free will.

Truthseeker10:
So you're telling us here that your person thoughts about a matter is the ultimate standard for good and evil?

No, I'm applying the same moral standard you use every day. You condemn murder, torture, and child abuse using this same principle. I'm just applying it consistently. If you think my standard is wrong, then defend why causing unnecessary suffering to innocents is actually good.

Truthseeker10:
What did God predict in Genesis 6:1 that would make pharoah release his people?

You meant Exodus 6:1. where God predicted Pharaoh would let them go 'because of my mighty hand" , meaning through the plagues. and those plagues happened because God repeatedly hardened pharaoh's heart. God predicted the outcome of his own manipulation.

Truthseeker10:
If God was Omniscient and saw everything that humans will do even before they were created, How could humans really choose to love him?

Now you're asking the right questions. You've just stumbled into one of theology's biggest contradictions. If God is omniscient and knows every choice you'll make before you're even born, then free will is an illusion. Your "choices' were already written before you even existed. So you see, you can't use free will as a defense for God's actions throughout this entire conversation and then turn around and question whether free will even exists. Pick one.
Either way, it doesn't justify killing Job's'children. Even if God needed to test Job, why did innocent children have to die for it? Answer that without deflecting to another topic.

KBdownloads:
You keep ignoring the core issue: an omnipotent God didn't need to use drowning at all. He could have achieved his goal without killing anyone. The 'they had a choice' argument doesn't address why an all-powerful God chose a method that required mass death when other options existed..

Is His goal not clearly, a clean slate? How else can you achieve a clean society whilst criminals are still alive? Eg how do you solve the bandits problem in Nigeria without killing the bandits?

merrymike47:
the name GOD didn’t carry any prefix or suffix, it’s simply says GOD. If you have any issues with God, hypo is still very cheap, get like two sachets and take a gulp. When you arrive at hell, you can beg satan to give you chance to ask or challenge God.

I only answered you based on your mindset, I don’t mean to be harsh, thank you.

And next time, pls don’t just bring a verse of the Bible out to suit your ego.

So your answer to a direct biblical quote is to tell me to drink p*ison and go to hell? That says everything about your ability to defend your position. When you can't address the argument, you resort to death threats disguised as "concern."

I didn't take Isaiah 45:7 out of context, I quoted it directly. If you think I'm misunderstanding it, then explain what it actually means. Show me the context that makes the words '' I create evil" mean something other than what it plainly says.

Instead, you tell me to kill myself and then claim you don't mean to be harsh. That's not harsh at all, it's pathetic. It's what people do when they've lost the argument but can't admit it.

If God is real and good, he should be able to withstand basic questions about his own words. The fact that you respond to scrutiny with threats of eternal torture tells me everything I need to know about the kind of person you are. You've been taught not to think, just to threaten anyone who does.

I asked a legitimate question about a verse in the Bible. You responded by telling me to p*ison myself. I've had somewhat respectful conversations with others in this thread who disagree with me. I will not engage with you further if you can't have a conversation without telling people to p*ison themselves.

KBdownloads:
So your answer to a direct biblical quote is to tell me to drink p*ison and go to hell?

You guys are hypocrites.
I responded and substantiated using scriptures to explain the meaning but did you respond to the biblical truth?

NO!

Instead you ignored and looked away as if you never saw to my post at all in the first instance!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
OK let's do as you ask!

After the first (original) sin happiness was taken away from the earth and what remains is a struggle to survive till we expire. That is why many became desperate opportunists doing whatever they can just to find a purpose for their existence leading to oppression, intimidation and persecution of the less privileged.

So despite all these God didn't just give up He kept sending obedient humans as prophets to warn or enlighten confused people in order to make them have a rethink regarding their ways of life.

But many have become vicious even to the point of hurting God's servants that is what scares Isaiah the prophet knowing the stiff-necked people he was sent to deliver God's message to.

That is why God told Isaiah saying:

I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. Isaiah 45:7

What is the import of this verse?

God is telling His loyal servant not to be afraid of either darkness or light because He created both so He can make them work to the advantage of His loyal servants while those planning to hurt them will be frustrated. Think of how God made the sun not to give it's light to Egyptians for three consecutive days yet in other places they are enjoying the day light {Exodus 10:22-23} this same God made the sun to stand still for more than the time it used to be during the days of Gideon.Joshua 10:12-13

What about peace and calamity?

Think of how useful water is to life. Can we survive without water? Well water is the most important asset to life yet it's this same Water God used to destroy evildoers in the days of Noah.
OK what about fire?
Of course that is the most destructive thing we humans could think of in fact scientists said it comprises of different gases but what did this God changed fire to?
Do you remember Shadrach, Meshak and Abednego?
Well this God turned the most heated fire into air-conditioner for His loyal servants while the same fire killed Nebuchadnezzar's strongest men!😟

So when you read God's word please ask for the import of what you are reading otherwise you will misconstrue the message.

May you have peace!🙂

KBdownloads:
I didn't take Isaiah 45:7 out of context, I quoted it directly. If you think I'm misunderstanding it, then explain what it actually means. Show me the context that makes the words '' I create evil" mean something other than what it plainly says...
If God is real and good, he should be able to withstand basic questions about his own words. The fact that you respond to scrutiny with threats of eternal torture tells me everything I need to know about the kind of person you are. You've been taught not to think, just to threaten anyone who does.

I did not respond with threats but with direct questions flowing from your own words, yet you have refused to answer them.

You raised the issue of capacity to do evil, so I asked

Do we not see the evil capacity of the gun and the poison in action? How are they different from the evil God created especially as Kalashnikov created the gun as God created the evil?

So, point out the difference between the two manufacturers since both of them created what we all call evil things

Dtruthspeaker:
So, when one bandit mistakenly shoots another bandit unnecessarily, it is evil?

Or where a thief running away with your phone is knocked down, it is evil?

Ok let me clarify.when I said evil is anything that causes unnecessary harm or suffering, I meant intentional unnecessary harm. Evil requires agency ; someone choosing to cause harm when they don't have to.
So yes, if one bandit intentionally shoots another bandit unnecessarily, that's evil.
If a thief gets knocked down and immobilized, that's justified harm. But if after he's been immobilized, someone then intentionally runs him over with a car, that's unnecessary harm and therefore evil.

KBdownloads:
Ok let me clarify.when I said evil is anything that causes unnecessary harm or suffering, I meant intentional unnecessary harm. Evil requires agency ; someone choosing to cause harm when they don't have to.
So yes, if one bandit intentionally shoots another bandit unnecessarily, that's evil.

If a thief gets knocked down and immobilized, that's justified harm. But if after he's been immobilized, someone then intentionally runs him over with a car, that's unnecessary harm and therefore evil.

Ok. You have now moved post to add "intentional" to your definition.

Do note in your bandit example "intentional" and"unnecessary" cannot go together. If a bandit already has the motive and intention of shooting another bandit, then it is necessary to him.

So, if a driver intently and deliberately parked under a tree to rest, then a branch from the tree falls and staked him to death, is it evil?

StillDtruth:
Is His goal not clearly, a clean slate? How else can you achieve a clean society whilst criminals are still alive? Eg how do you solve the bandits problem in Nigeria without killing the bandits?

An omnipotent God doesn't need mass drowning to achieve a clean slate.

An omnipotent God could achieve a clean society by preventing the wicked from being born, instantly erasing them from existence, changing their hearts (like he did with Pharoah, but in reverse). Instead, he chose drowning, which is intentional, unnecessary suffering when other painless alternatives existed. That's evil by definition.

You're comparing God to the Nigerian government, but Nigeria isn't omnipotent. If it were, it could simply make bandits disappear with a thought. Nigeria has to work within physical constraints, an omnipotent God has none. If God needed to use drowning like a powerless human government, then he's not all-powerful. If he is all-powerful, then he chose unnecessary cruelty. Which is it?

KBdownloads:
Ok let me clarify.

Guy why are you running away from the post below?

MaxInDHouse:
OK let's do as you ask!

After the first (original) sin happiness was taken away from the earth and what remains is a struggle to survive till we expire. That is why many became desperate opportunists doing whatever they can just to find a purpose for their existence leading to oppression, intimidation and persecution of the less privileged.

So despite all these God didn't just give up He kept sending obedient humans as prophets to warn or enlighten confused people in order to make them have a rethink regarding their ways of life.

But many have become vicious even to the point of hurting God's servants that is what scares Isaiah the prophet knowing the stiff-necked people he was sent to deliver God's message to.

That is why God told Isaiah saying:

I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. Isaiah 45:7

What is the import of this verse?

God is telling His loyal servant not to be afraid of either darkness or light because He created both so He can make them work to the advantage of His loyal servants while those planning to hurt them will be frustrated. Think of how God made the sun not to give it's light to Egyptians for three consecutive days yet in other places they are enjoying the day light {Exodus 10:22-23} this same God made the sun to stand still for more than the time it used to be during the days of Gideon.Joshua 10:12-13

What about peace and calamity?

Think of how useful water is to life. Can we survive without water? Well water is the most important asset to life yet it's this same Water God used to destroy evildoers in the days of Noah.
OK what about fire?
Of course that is the most destructive thing we humans could think of in fact scientists said it comprises of different gases but what did this God changed fire to?
Do you remember Shadrach, Meshak and Abednego?
Well this God turned the most heated fire into air-conditioner for His loyal servants while the same fire killed Nebuchadnezzar's strongest men!😟

So when you read God's word please ask for the import of what you are reading otherwise you will misconstrue the message.

May you have peace!🙂

KBdownloads:
An omnipotent God doesn't need mass drowning to achieve a clean slate.

An omnipotent God could achieve a clean society by preventing the wicked from being born, instantly erasing them from existence, changing their hearts (like he did with Pharoah, but in reverse). Instead, he chose drowning, which is intentional, unnecessary suffering when other painless alternatives existed. That's evil by definition.

You're comparing God to the Nigerian government, but Nigeria isn't omnipotent. If it were, it could simply make bandits disappear with a thought. Nigeria has to work within physical constraints, an omnipotent God has none. If God needed to use drowning like a powerless human government, then he's not all-powerful. If he is all-powerful, then he chose unnecessary cruelty. Which is it?

You have moved away from the point.

You said God had options of dealing with the criminals.

Now you have moved post away from dealing with the criminals to the pre-criminal period/prevention of crime.

Which means you are asking God to change the past instead of directly dealing with the criminals already on ground.

So, you see you have gone into the unreasonability of wishful thinking and a dictating to God how He should deal with a matter. Meanwhile, a judge and king has full discretion rights of how He intends to handle a matter before Him, just like you do in your own matters.

Of which it is clear that you are wishing a painless death whereas, like bandits, you have given others pain. Whereas, you called it just that a thief is knocked down.

It is clear that this thread was created because you real eyes that you are culpable and guilty and rather than repent, you had to make it worse by attacking Him and impliedly called Him evil, because He created evil, in your wish to blame evil

Forgetting that those who blamed the devil, or the woman you gave me or the serpent, still did not escape judgement.

Of which you people always laughed at criminals who always blamed the devil for their crimes. Now you still did the same thing.

KBdownloads:
No, because there's no harm or suffering involved. Consensual actions between adults that don't cause harm aren't evil by my definition. You're trying to deflect by bringing up homosexuality, but this has nothing to do with our discussion about unnecessary suffering.

So why is homosexuality not legal in Nigeria?

keep ignoring the core issue: an omnipotent God didn't need to use drowning at all. He could have achieved his goal without killing anyone. The 'they had a choice' argument doesn't address why an all-powerful God chose a method that required mass death when other options existed.



Yes, that's exactly what innocent means, not guilty of moral wrongdoing. Animals can't sin because they have no moral agency, which makes them innocent by definition. You're playing word games instead of addressing the point: why did morally blameless creatures need to drown?

Oga you are funny.....if God is all powerful, how does that stop him from using the method he deems fit. You claimed God should have forced them to act against their own will, would your own option not also be against fundamental human right to freedom?

Learn from the screenshot below about your so called animal innocence. I can also claim that animals should not be even killed for food because they are innocent. Would that not also make you evil?

God already violated free will when he hardened Pharaoh's heart. And the flood wasn't about free will, it was about punishing wickedness. God could have removed the wicked without drowning (peaceful death) and without touching anyone's free will. Drowning was not the only option that preserved free will.

Oga if your interpretation of Exodus 9:12 is correct, explain Exodus 6:1?

No, I'm applying the same moral standard you use every day. You condemn murder, torture, and child abuse using this same principle. I'm just applying it consistently. If you think my standard is wrong, then defend why causing unnecessary suffering to innocents is actually good.

Are you telling me here that a creator of a creation has no right to determine how and why his creation should be destroyed?

Are you claiming that all the people in Egypt were innocent aside pharoah? Did the Egyptian as a whole follow the moral standard of the creator?

You meant Exodus 6:1. where God predicted Pharaoh would let them go 'because of my mighty hand" , meaning through the plagues. and those plagues happened because God repeatedly hardened pharaoh's heart. God predicted the outcome of his own manipulation.

lol...you are funny....How could pharoah let the people go if it was actually God that was stopping him from letting the people go?

you're asking the right questions. You've just stumbled into one of theology's biggest contradictions. If God is omniscient and knows every choice you'll make before you're even born, then free will is an illusion. Your "choices' were already written before you even existed. So you see, you can't use free will as a defense for God's actions throughout this entire conversation and then turn around and question whether free will even exists. Pick one.
Either way, it doesn't justify killing Job's'children. Even if God needed to test Job, why did innocent children have to die for it? Answer that without deflecting to another topic.

So where does the Bible teach that God is omniscient and sees everything that all humans will do before creating them?

MaxInDHouse:
OK let's do as you ask!

After the first (original) sin happiness was taken away from the earth and what remains is a struggle to survive till we expire. That is why many became desperate opportunists doing whatever they can just to find a purpose for their existence leading to oppression, intimidation and persecution of the less privileged.

So despite all these God didn't just give up He kept sending obedient humans as prophets to warn or enlighten confused people in order to make them have a rethink regarding their ways of life.

But many have become vicious even to the point of hurting God's servants that is what scares Isaiah the prophet knowing the stiff-necked people he was sent to deliver God's message to.

That is why God told Isaiah saying:

I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. Isaiah 45:7

What is the import of this verse?

God is telling His loyal servant not to be afraid of either darkness or light because He created both so He can make them work to the advantage of His loyal servants while those planning to hurt them will be frustrated. Think of how God made the sun not to give it's light to Egyptians for three consecutive days yet in other places they are enjoying the day light {Exodus 10:22-23} this same God made the sun to stand still for more than the time it used to be during the days of Gideon.Joshua 10:12-13

What about peace and calamity?

Think of how useful water is to life. Can we survive without water? Well water is the most important asset to life yet it's this same Water God used to destroy evildoers in the days of Noah.
OK what about fire?
Of course that is the most destructive thing we humans could think of in fact scientists said it comprises of different gases but what did this God changed fire to?
Do you remember Shadrach, Meshak and Abednego?
Well this God turned the most heated fire into air-conditioner for His loyal servants while the same fire killed Nebuchadnezzar's strongest men!😟

So when you read God's word please ask for the import of what you are reading otherwise you will misconstrue the message.

May you have peace!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
After the first (original) sin happiness was taken away from the earth and what remains is a struggle to survive till we expire. That is why many became desperate opportunists doing whatever they can just to find a purpose for their existence leading to oppression, intimidation and persecution of the less privileged.

This doesn't address Isaiah 45:7. The verse says God creates evil, not that evil resulted from human sin. If evil came from Adam's sin, then God didn't create it, humans did. But the verse explicitly says God creates evil. So which is it?

MaxInDHouse:
So despite all these God didn't just give up He kept sending obedient humans as prophets to warn or enlighten confused people in order to make them have a rethink regarding their ways of life.

Irrelevant to the question. I'm asking how a God that created evil makes him good, not about prophets.

MaxInDHouse:
That is why God told Isaiah saying:

I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. Isaiah 45:7

The King James Version (KJV) reads: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things". The verse clearly says God CREATES evil. Not USES it, CREATES it. How does the creator of evil remain wholly good?

MaxInDHouse:
God is telling His loyal servant not to be afraid of either darkness or light because He created both so He can make them work to the advantage of His loyal servants while those planning to hurt them will be frustrated. Think of how God made the sun not to give it's light to Egyptians for three consecutive days yet in other places they are enjoying the day light {Exodus 10:22-23} this same God made the sun to stand still for more than the time it used to be during the days of Gideon.Joshua 10:12-13

The verse says God created evil itself, not that he uses existing things in different ways, but that he is the author and originator of evil. Creating something means bringing it into existence, not just controlling it. All of these are examples of God using natural elements for different purposes. None of them address God creating evil itself. Water, fire, and darkness are morally neutral forces. Evil is not. The verse claims God created evil; the concept, the capacity, the condition for moral wrong, not just that he uses neutral things strategically.

MaxInDHouse:
So when you read God's word please ask for the import of what you are reading otherwise you will misconstrue the message.

I understand the verse perfectly. It says God creates evil. You haven't explained how the being who brought evil into existence is wholly good, you've only shown he can use natural forces strategically. Those are completely different claims. So I'll ask again: How is the being who created evil itself, not just used it, but brought it into existence, still wholly good?

KBdownloads:
Isaiah 45:7 says:
“I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.”

I’m genuinely interested in how Christians can read this passage and still claim that their God is a good God. The verse explicitly has God claiming responsibility for not only good but also for evil.

If God created evil, how can he still be called a good God?

At the very least, this verse challenges the idea that God is purely good. It raises the possibility that the suffering and atrocities in the world ultimately originate from God himself, with Satan serving as a convenient scapegoat to preserve God’s image.

Have you red other Biblical translation? If No, do so.

KBdownloads:
This doesn't address Isaiah 45:7. The verse says God creates evil, not that evil resulted from human sin. If evil came from Adam's sin, then God didn't create it, humans did. But the verse explicitly says God creates evil. So which is it?

You missed a verse in the Bible:


God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. ‭Genesis 1:31 NIV‬


Please where is the evil?
Is it within all the good things?

Of course God never created anything evil in the beginning.

So what are the evil God is referring to in the Bible book of Isaiah 45:7?

They are natural forces that could be harmful when misused.

I mentioned "FIRE" an accumulation of gasses, just this December fire consumed a lot of properties yet can we survive without using fire?

The answer is NO!

So God is telling Isaiah that He created this thing and so He could redirect it to do something totally different from what we knew it to be.
For instance the fire Nebuchadnezzar wanted to use to destroy Shadrach Meshak and Abednego turned to air conditioner while the same fire killed the strongest men in Babylon.

The import of this verse is to remind us that whatever evil thing we could be scared of they are all harmless to the Creator who made them all! Matthew 10:28🙂

Truvelisback:
Have you red other Biblical translation? If No, do so.

You can see now it is not understanding and translations that is his problem.

His problem was that he was wishing to blame God for his guilt since he has seen that blaming the devil does not work.

Dtruthspeaker:
You can see now it is not understanding and translations that is his problem.

His problem was that he was wishing to blame God for his guilt since he has seen that blaming the devil does not work.

What many people don't know is that King James Version's (KJV)words are old English expression and are deep to understand to some people. That's why we have the New King James Version (NKJV Bible), for clarity sake. If you seem confused about a Biblical expression, look an easier Biblical expression like Good News and others.