₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
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Thanks for this, which I have gone through. Did you see my last revert by the way?

Well, all said and done all I see there is a great amount of speculation without any concrete answers to questions. As the article acknowledges, the early universe remains a mystery. I will add that the present universe is still one.

Yeah I saw it, that's why I made my response. Lemme repeat this is speculation at this point because the big bang is the extent to which our knowledge goes. Yes it is still a mystery but I like that we are still investigating it.

LordReed:
Yeah I saw it, that's why I made my response. Lemme repeat this is speculation at this point because the big bang is the extent to which our knowledge goes. Yes it is still a mystery but I like that we are still investigating it.

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We are wired to push the boundaries, but I really do suspect that there are some barriers of knowledge we may never cross.
We may not even have the capacity to download or understand some levels of knowledge any more than an ant can do computer science.

Cycleoftheworld:
So Lawrence Krauss, Richard Dawkins and all the waves of New Atheists who claim the universe came from literal nothingness don't exist?

No theist claims God came from nothing. Theists say God is eternal. Theists will tell you God created the universe from his own essence.

Atheists say the universe magically came from nothingness. How does nothing do something? By definition it does nothing. LMAO

If you're saying "I don't know" then you should stop identifying as an atheist and arguing against the idea of a prime mover. The scientific stance doesn't rule out a god. If you're admitting that, you should identify as agnostic.



Why are the lying so hard? The League of Militant Atheists was a violent group that murdered religious people, priests and clergy. This is well documented.

The Crusades were a series of defensive wars against the colonial expansion of the Ottoman Empire.

The Salam Witch Trials and Huguenot wars did not kill millions. State atheism killed millions though.



No, The League of Militant Atheists killed religious people, helped by the atheist government. This is documented even on Wikipedia with sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists

"The League of Militant Atheists aided the Soviet government in killing clergy and committed believers.[65] The League also made it a priority to remove religious icons from the homes of believers.[66] Under the slogan, "the Storming of Heaven," the League of Militant Atheists pressed for "resolute action against religious peasants" leading to the mass arrest and exile of many believers, especially village priests. By 1940, "over 100 bishops, tens of thousands of Orthodox clergy, and thousands of monks and lay believers had been killed or had died in Soviet prisons and the Gulag."

Sources: Peter N. Stearns. The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World. Oxford University Press, 2008, p. 278.

Theodore R. Weeks. Across the Revolutionary Divide: Russia and the USSR, 1861-1945. John Wiley & Sons, 2011

North Korea kills its own citizens as well as religious folk. This is well documented by intelligence agencies and defectors. So Mr Liar, why are you lying on behalf of atheism? If atheism was a logical position, why do you feel the need to spread misinformation, falsehoods and engage in history revisionism? All you atheists do is lie and deny history.

People literally get publically executed if they're caught leaving your atheist hellhole of North Korea:

https://www.rfa.org/english/korea/2025/03/10/north-korea-attempted-escape-public-execution/

Clearly you're not very confident in the worldview if you have to lie this hard and ignore history, academic sources including the one the OP provided concerning the Encyclopedia of Wars which show the majority of wars throughout history have been entirely secular.



This is what I see with atheists. Atheist billboards throughout the globe. Look at America, where the group known as "American Atheists" hire billboards to promote atheism. Throughout Europe it's the same. On TV in movies and TV shows, here on this forum, on YouTube, on Facebook and in discussion pages solely for Christians, atheists will enter just to insult Christians and preach atheism.

Once again, you are lying for atheism.



Christians tell the truth about atheists. Atheists on the other hand can only lie. I proved it with the refutation of your claim that North Korea doesn't kill people and that The League of Militant Atheists was a "peaceful organisation." You atheists are just a joke.

1.Kraus and Dawkins didn't say the universe came from nothing. I just crosschecked. Your lies are getting too much
2.So what's 'God's eseence'? His jizz,or what? Una go just dey misyarn
3. Again which atheists told you the universe came from nothing? All the atheists here have told you it's a lie. And it's not a scientific view
4. If you dont know how a piece of meat was stolen from your pot of soup,and your son told you the meat evaporated, would you believe him,yes or no? Won't you demand evidence? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You don't expect atheists to believe your creation story since we dont know. Provide evidence. Besides thousands of other gods make the same claim,how do we know yours is true(assuming we are to believe)
5. The League of Militant Atheists only aided the government in giving information about theists. THEY DIDN'T KILL ANY THEISTS. Do your research and stop these lies.
6. North Korea practices Shamanism and Chondoism,thus they're not entirely atheistic. Remember atheism is lack of belief in any gods. Get it right
7. Huguenot wars alone killed millions,Mr. Liar.
The French Wars of Religion were a series of civil wars between French Catholics and Protestants from 1562 to 1598. Between two and four million people died from violence, famine or disease directly caused by the conflict, and it severely damaged the power of the French monarchy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion
The Witch trials killed hundreds of thousands
The Great Crusades killed Pagans too. So which land did the pagans steal from christians, Mr.Liar
Now European wars of religion(16th-17th centuries) caused immense death tolls, with total estimates ranging broadly from 5.5 million to over 18 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
8. You are talking about atheist billboards in the US. Compare that to christian billboards. Now tell me which is greater? In Nigeria,have you ever seen an atheist billboard or show? They'll lynch the person. My former boss told me he would sack me if he finds out I'm an atheist. I can assure you that anybody that identifies atheist as a religion in Nigeria won't get any job or get laid. The persecution would be terrible. A Christian would rather employ a muslim than atheist. He would employ a gay Christian than an atheist. And you want the atheist to come out and do a show? I told you all the instances christians harass us. Tell me how atheists harass anyone in this country.
LIAR LIAR,PANTS ON FIRE

DeepSight:
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Lawrence Krauss famously or infamously argued that. Or something close to that. I think precisely that the universe arose from nothingness. I found it absurd because he proceeded to define that "nothingness" in a way which is alien to the meaning of the word itself.

It reminds me just how scientists have a different definition for time than that which exists in layman's experience.

Having said that, there is the failure by many (like Lawag3) to take note of different ideas such as creatio ex nihilo (creation from nothing), creatio ex materia (creation from some matter already existing) and creatio ex deo (creation from the divine substance of the creator itself.

Krauss's book said A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing. This ignorami Cycle now twisted it to say he meant the universe came from nothing

DeepSight:
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How does that mean they have proven it?
Have you eaten and taken your meds?

Its like this is the first time you are engaging Dtruthspeaker. Dude is a certified fruitcake. Fruitier than a fruity multifruity
Once you knock off his point,he just drops a nonsensical post and runs away in victory

DeepSight:
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In fairness, the evidence of how this universe came about is likely permanently outside the paygrade or capacity of this humanity.
It is also likely outside the realm of physical science alone.

I have thought of it but then how do you know that? How do you know we won't discover how we came about in say 100 years time? Remember at a point humans didn't know how rain, lightning, floods,tsunamis came about and said it was the gods. Now we know better

DeepSight:
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Some atheists, notably Lawrence Krauss have insisted on that. But you are right that its not a claim made by atheists generally and in fact has nothing to do with atheism.

This is the title of his book
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing

jaephoenix:
Its like this is the first time you are engaging Dtruthspeaker. Dude is a certified fruitcake. Fruitier than a fruity multifruity
Once you knock off his point,he just drops a nonsensical post and runs away in victory

If your head was not hollow, you would have seen that I pointed out his fulliishmess and he screamed and ran away. Unfortunately, you have become a person of not sound maind so, we understand, yure emptynesss has become permanent

Dtruthspeaker:
If your head was not hollow, you would have seen that I pointed out his fulliishmess and he screamed and ran away. Unfortunately, you have become a person of not sound maind so, we understand, yure emptynesss has become permanent

See abeg,u seriously need a shrink. No cap. I won't mind spearheading a Gofundme to help

jaephoenix:
This is the title of his book
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing

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Have you read it or listened to him defend the arguments in it? Because he did argue that the universe came from nothing.

jaephoenix:
I have thought of it but then how do you know that? How do you know we won't discover how we came about in say 100 years time? Remember at a point humans didn't know how rain, lightning, floods,tsunamis came about and said it was the gods. Now we know better

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I don't claim to know for sure. I just said what seems likely to me.

jaephoenix:
Krauss's book said A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing. This ignorami Cycle now twisted it to say he meant the universe came from nothing

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I have listened to him defend the point and he actually argues just that, even passionately and to the point of sounding irritable, erratic and unhinged.

DeepSight:
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In fairness, the evidence of how this universe came about is likely permanently outside the paygrade or capacity of this humanity.
It is also likely outside the realm of physical science alone.

You're correct but the situation is not just 'likely', it's the absolute truth.

Most of what exists is entirely invisible to us. Humans only see light between 430-790THz and hear sounds between 20Hz-20KHz.

This is a popular science fact meant to highlight the limitations of human senses, emphasizing how much of reality we miss.

Vision (light) :
Human eyes detect only a tiny sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum called visible light.

This corresponds to wavelengths roughly 380–750 nanometers (nm), which translates to frequencies of about 400–790 THz (terahertz, or trillion hertz).

- Red light: lower end, around 430 THz.
- Violet light: higher end, around 790 THz.

The numbers (430–790 THz) are a common scientific approximation.

Everything else—infrared (heat), ultraviolet, X-rays, radio waves, microwaves, gamma rays—is invisible to us without tools like cameras, telescopes, or detectors. And these instruments still remain limited in capabilities. Visible light is less than 0.005% of the full electromagnetic spectrum, so most electromagnetic radiation (and much of what it reveals about the universe) is invisible.

Hearing (sound) .:
Humans typically hear sounds with frequencies from 20 Hz (very low bass) to 20,000 Hz (20 kHz, high-pitched).

"20Hz-20KHz," is the standard adult range (though it narrows with age, especially above 15–17 kHz).

Sounds below 20 Hz (infrasound) or above 20 kHz (ultrasound) exist but are inaudible to us—animals like elephants (infrasound) or bats/dogs (ultrasound) can detect them. And you can be rest assured there are other unnamed sound frequencies nothing in the world has ever detected.

The Broader Point
Philosophically/scientifically: our senses evolved for survival, not to perceive "everything." Vast parts of reality—dark matter/energy (95% of the universe), non-visible radiation, inaudible vibrations—are "invisible" or imperceptible. We rely on science and technology to uncover an infinitesimally small percentage of them. Even what we know if the universe today as vast as that knowledge is, is still approximately 0% of the entire universe.

So, how can any same man confidently say "There's no God" as though he has seen, heard and known everything there is. It is absolute foolishness.

I have come to a point of realization that even the so called "Spirit realm" is simply a frequency that exists beyond the bondaries of our natural perception. Nobody sees everything that's around him at any given time. Infact, the unseen is infinitely more than the seen.

An atheist is like a Peck of chickens hatched and grown in a closed and conditioned cage with just a hole somewhere on the cage for passing food and water. It will be foolish for those chickens to arise one day, and say there's no human just because they've never seen or perceived anything beyond the walls of their cage. And when asked how the food from that hole happens, they answer it happens from nothing or unknown (like what I have seen lordreed and jaephoenix claim on this thread). The truth is that the food comes from something unknown indeed to the chickens but claiming there's no entity behind the food is absolute foolishness.

Both claims of the world coming from nothing and/or unknown leading to a conclusion that there's no God just make me chuckle. They don't sound intelligent to me.

Disinfectant123 is asking for evidence that the God exists without seeing that there's no evidence He doesn't.

If atheists have any shame, Cycleoftheworld has dissipated virtually all the arguments atheists hold onto on this thread, but since Atheism itself is some form of 'religion', atheists must defend themselves even with lies, denials and misinformation.

What we know as humans even with our scientific advancements is still nothingness compared to what there is. Wait until you know everything at least, before you say in absolutes that there's no God. And you guys should stop being illogical and contradictory because claiming there's no God is the same as claiming there's no cause. And science has established that effects are always causative. All the effects we see in the universe were therefore caused.Whatever caused them, be it human or things, or places or whatever, whether imaginable or unimaginable is what we call God. A reasonable human would go on a quest for find what it is rather that talk in absolutes about God not existing. Majority of the scientists in the world actually believe in the existence of God. Only a very small percentage are atheists.

We humans don't know anything about the universe yet. We're still exploring. We don't even know anything about our world yet. We have very little knowledge of it because we're limited in sight and in hearing. Wise men would prepare for evehtualities in such situations as ours. Walking arrogantly with blind confidence is foolhardy.

FxMasterz:
You're correct but the situation is not just 'likely', it's the absolute truth.

Most of what exists is entirely invisible to us. Humans only see light between 430-790THz and hear sounds between 20Hz-20KHz.

This is a popular science fact meant to highlight the limitations of human senses, emphasizing how much of reality we miss.

Vision (light) :
Human eyes detect only a tiny sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum called visible light.

This corresponds to wavelengths roughly 380–750 nanometers (nm), which translates to frequencies of about 400–790 THz (terahertz, or trillion hertz).

- Red light: lower end, around 430 THz.
- Violet light: higher end, around 790 THz.

The numbers (430–790 THz) are a common scientific approximation.

Everything else—infrared (heat), ultraviolet, X-rays, radio waves, microwaves, gamma rays—is invisible to us without tools like cameras, telescopes, or detectors. And these instruments still remain limited in capabilities. Visible light is less than 0.005% of the full electromagnetic spectrum, so most electromagnetic radiation (and much of what it reveals about the universe) is invisible.

Hearing (sound) .:
Humans typically hear sounds with frequencies from 20 Hz (very low bass) to 20,000 Hz (20 kHz, high-pitched).

"20Hz-20KHz," is the standard adult range (though it narrows with age, especially above 15–17 kHz).

Sounds below 20 Hz (infrasound) or above 20 kHz (ultrasound) exist but are inaudible to us—animals like elephants (infrasound) or bats/dogs (ultrasound) can detect them. And you can be rest assured there are other unnamed sound frequencies nothing in the world has ever detected.

The Broader Point
Philosophically/scientifically: our senses evolved for survival, not to perceive "everything." Vast parts of reality—dark matter/energy (95% of the universe), non-visible radiation, inaudible vibrations—are "invisible" or imperceptible. We rely on science and technology to uncover an infinitesimally small percentage of them. Even what we know if the universe today as vast as that knowledge is, is still approximately 0% of the entire universe.

So, how can any same man confidently say "There's no God" as though he has seen, heard and known everything there is. It is absolute foolishness.

I have come to a point of realization that even the so called "Spirit realm" is simply a frequency that exists beyond the bondaries of our natural perception. Nobody sees everything that's around him at any given time. Infact, the unseen is infinitely more than the seen.

An atheist is like a Peck of chickens hatched and grown in a closed and conditioned cage with just a hole somewhere on the cage for passing food and water. It will be foolish for those chickens to arise one day, and say there's no human just because they've never seen or perceived anything beyond the walls of their cage. And when asked how the food from that hole happens, they answer it happens from nothing or unknown (like what I have seen lordreed and jaephoenix claim on this thread). The truth is that the food comes from something unknown indeed to the chickens but claiming there's no entity behind the food is absolute foolishness.

Both claims of the world coming from nothing and/or unknown leading to a conclusion that there's no God just make me chuckle. They don't sound intelligent to me.

Disinfectant123 is asking for evidence that the God exists without seeing that there's no evidence He doesn't.

If atheists have any shame, Cycleoftheworld has dissipated virtually all the arguments atheists hold onto on this thread, but since Atheism itself is some form of 'religion', atheists must defend themselves even with lies, denials and misinformation.

What we know as humans even with our scientific advancements is still nothingness compared to what there is. Wait until you know everything at least, before you say in absolutes that there's no God. And you guys should stop being illogical and contradictory because claiming there's no God is the same as claiming there's no cause. And science has established that effects are always causative. All the effects we see in the universe were therefore caused.Whatever caused them, be it human or things, or places or whatever, whether imaginable or unimaginable is what we call God. A reasonable human would go on a quest for find what it is rather that talk in absolutes about God not existing. Majority of the scientists in the world actually believe in the existence of God. Only a very small percentage are atheists.

We humans don't know anything about the universe yet. We're still exploring. We don't even know anything about our world yet. We have very little knowledge of it because we're limited in sight and in hearing. Wise men would prepare for evehtualities in such situations as ours. Walking arrogantly with blind confidence is foolhardy.

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Loaded. Lots of sound points. Particularly how little our senses can sense. And our science being tied to what we can sense either directly or indirectly must also be greatly limited.

Nevertheless let me caution that you may have misrepresented LordReed and Japhoenix a bit.

Where I feel you are right again is the idea of causation, sadly many still try to deny it, saying that such breaks down at certain levels of physics - which is not proven at all.

FxMasterz:
You're correct but the situation is not just 'likely', it's the absolute truth.

Most of what exists is entirely invisible to us. Humans only see light between 430-790THz and hear sounds between 20Hz-20KHz.

This is a popular science fact meant to highlight the limitations of human senses, emphasizing how much of reality we miss.

Vision (light) :
Human eyes detect only a tiny sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum called visible light.

This corresponds to wavelengths roughly 380–750 nanometers (nm), which translates to frequencies of about 400–790 THz (terahertz, or trillion hertz).

- Red light: lower end, around 430 THz.
- Violet light: higher end, around 790 THz.

The numbers (430–790 THz) are a common scientific approximation.

Everything else—infrared (heat), ultraviolet, X-rays, radio waves, microwaves, gamma rays—is invisible to us without tools like cameras, telescopes, or detectors. And these instruments still remain limited in capabilities. Visible light is less than 0.005% of the full electromagnetic spectrum, so most electromagnetic radiation (and much of what it reveals about the universe) is invisible.

Hearing (sound) .:
Humans typically hear sounds with frequencies from 20 Hz (very low bass) to 20,000 Hz (20 kHz, high-pitched).

"20Hz-20KHz," is the standard adult range (though it narrows with age, especially above 15–17 kHz).

Sounds below 20 Hz (infrasound) or above 20 kHz (ultrasound) exist but are inaudible to us—animals like elephants (infrasound) or bats/dogs (ultrasound) can detect them. And you can be rest assured there are other unnamed sound frequencies nothing in the world has ever detected.

The Broader Point
Philosophically/scientifically: our senses evolved for survival, not to perceive "everything." Vast parts of reality—dark matter/energy (95% of the universe), non-visible radiation, inaudible vibrations—are "invisible" or imperceptible. We rely on science and technology to uncover an infinitesimally small percentage of them. Even what we know if the universe today as vast as that knowledge is, is still approximately 0% of the entire universe.

So, how can any same man confidently say "There's no God" as though he has seen, heard and known everything there is. It is absolute foolishness.

I have come to a point of realization that even the so called "Spirit realm" is simply a frequency that exists beyond the bondaries of our natural perception. Nobody sees everything that's around him at any given time. Infact, the unseen is infinitely more than the seen.

An atheist is like a Peck of chickens hatched and grown in a closed and conditioned cage with just a hole somewhere on the cage for passing food and water. It will be foolish for those chickens to arise one day, and say there's no human just because they've never seen or perceived anything beyond the walls of their cage. And when asked how the food from that hole happens, they answer it happens from nothing or unknown (like what I have seen lordreed and jaephoenix claim on this thread). The truth is that the food comes from something unknown indeed to the chickens but claiming there's no entity behind the food is absolute foolishness.

Both claims of the world coming from nothing and/or unknown leading to a conclusion that there's no God just make me chuckle. They don't sound intelligent to me.

Disinfectant123 is asking for evidence that the God exists without seeing that there's no evidence He doesn't.

If atheists have any shame, Cycleoftheworld has dissipated virtually all the arguments atheists hold onto on this thread, but since Atheism itself is some form of 'religion', atheists must defend themselves even with lies, denials and misinformation.

What we know as humans even with our scientific advancements is still nothingness compared to what there is. Wait until you know everything at least, before you say in absolutes that there's no God. And you guys should stop being illogical and contradictory because claiming there's no God is the same as claiming there's no cause. And science has established that effects are always causative. All the effects we see in the universe were therefore caused.Whatever caused them, be it human or things, or places or whatever, whether imaginable or unimaginable is what we call God. A reasonable human would go on a quest for find what it is rather that talk in absolutes about God not existing. Majority of the scientists in the world actually believe in the existence of God. Only a very small percentage are atheists.

We humans don't know anything about the universe yet. We're still exploring. We don't even know anything about our world yet. We have very little knowledge of it because we're limited in sight and in hearing. Wise men would prepare for evehtualities in such situations as ours. Walking arrogantly with blind confidence is foolhardy.

I am not sure how you are able to conflate or equate unknown with nothing. When we say unknown it means the knowledge of that thing is deficient or not in the current body of knowledge and so deserves some more investigation. Anyone who reads that and thinks these guys are saying nothing did it must be some kind of supreme mental gymnast.

DeepSight:
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Loaded. Lots of sound points. Particularly how little our senses can sense. And our science being tied to what we can sense either directly or indirectly must also be greatly limited.

Nevertheless let me caution that you may have misrepresented LordReed and Japhoenix a bit.

Where I feel you are right again is the idea of causation, sadly many still try to deny it, saying that such breaks down at certain levels of physics - which is not proven at all.

l

Let's not complicate the issue about causation for atheists. Their stance is entirely contradictory, and let me spell it out in simple terms.

If I say for example, the big bang happened and was caused by nothing, that literally means the big bang didn't start at any point in time. It is continous workflow from eternity which is very illogical. Atheists on this thread have said they make no such claims.

Niw if I say the big bang's causation was unknown. It gets really interesting because "unknown" is not the same as "nothing", so how does this justify the idea that there's no God. "I don't know what caused the big bang" cannot be rendered as God or the Causer of the big bang does not exist because "I don't know" is not the same thing as "It doesn't exist". Not knowing what caused something is not a logical basis for concluding that the cause doesn't exist.

So, without referring to physics, the atheists positions are logically unsound.

jaephoenix:

See abeg,u seriously need a shrink. No cap. I won't mind spearheading a Gofundme to help

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Kai, I am just seeing that his post oh. . . . His case is an emergency.

LordReed:
I am not sure how you are able to conflate or equate unknown with nothing. When we say unknown it means the knowledge of that thing is deficient or not in the current body of knowledge and so deserves some more investigation. Anyone who reads that and thinks these guys are saying nothing did it must be some kind of supreme mental gymnast.

Where that gets interesting is that if it's unknown, how did it translate to It doesn't exist.

If you see it as something deserving further investigation, then you're agnostic. Not an atheist.

You cannot outrightly come out and say there's no God if you still need further investigation.

DeepSight:
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Loaded. Lots of sound points. Particularly how little our senses can sense. And our science being tied to what we can sense either directly or indirectly must also be greatly limited.

Nevertheless let me caution that you may have misrepresented LordReed and Japhoenix a bit.

Where I feel you are right again is the idea of causation, sadly many still try to deny it, saying that such breaks down at certain levels of physics - which is not proven at all.

The problem with using causation is like as you can see this mental gymnastic where it is conflated with willful action. Most scientists when using the word would be looking at a chain of natural events not a willful action and the problem with looking back beyond the big bang is they no longer have the language to describe that natural chain. A mental gymnast comes along and says that lack of language means a supernatural entity is behind that lack. Meanwhile I just say unknown.

FxMasterz:
Where that gets interesting is that if it's unknown, how did it translate to It doesn't exist.

If you see it as something deserving further investigation, then you're agnostic. Not an atheist.

Because the proposed supernatural entity aka god is incoherent and does not fit any aspect of reality. When something doesn't exist definitions or word play will not make it gain existence.

Investigation won't make your god appear just like Investigation into any of the other natural phenomena we previously had no knowledge of did not cause any god to be evident. So I have no good reason to believe this will be any different.

FxMasterz:
l

Let's not complicate the issue about causation for atheists. Their stance is entirely contradictory, and let me spell it out in simple terms.

If I say for example, the big bang happened and was caused by nothing, that literally means the big bang didn't start at any point in time. It is continous workflow from eternity which is very illogical. Atheists on this thread have said they make no such claims.

Niw if I say the big bang's causation was unknown. It gets really interesting because "unknown" is not the same as "nothing", so how does this justify the idea that there's no God. "I don't know what caused the big bang" cannot be rendered as God or the Causer of the big bang does not exist because "I don't know" is not the same thing as "It doesn't exist". Not knowing what caused something is not a logical basis for concluding that the cause doesn't exist.

So, without referring to physics, the atheists positions are logically unsound.

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Agreed, and what many atheist scientists have tried to use to wriggle out of causality is -

1. Virtual particles in a quantum vacuum - which has been thoroughly debunked as a quantum vacuum is not nothing and has been shown to contain gaseous pressure.

2. The argument that causality breaks down when we are looking back at the early universe - unproven also and even illogical.

LordReed:
The problem with using causation is like as you can see this mental gymnastic where it is conflated with willful action. Most scientists when using the word would be looking at a chain of natural events not a willful action and the problem with looking back beyond the big bang is they no longer have the language to describe that natural chain. A mental gymnast comes along and says that lack of language means a supernatural entity is behind that lack. Meanwhile I just say unknown.

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Causality does not imply any willfulness. Causality is causality. An impersonal force can be a cause.

DeepSight:
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Agreed, and what many atheist scientists have tried to use to wriggle out of causality is -

1. Virtual particles in a quantum vacuum - which has been thoroughly debunked as a quantum vacuum is not nothing and has been shown to contain gaseous pressure.

2. The argument that causality breaks down when we are looking back at the early universe - unproven also and even illogical.

I am not sure why you are agreeing with him saying atheists say nothing caused the big bang. Also because of the currently inscrutable nature of beyond the earliest moments of the big bang no candidate explanations as of yet can fit properly since we can't even find the language to describe it yet. The matter is not concluded by any stretch of the imagination.

DeepSight:
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Causality does not imply any willfulness. Causality is causality. An impersonal force can be a cause.

I am refering to the theistic mental gymnastics.

LordReed:
I am refering to the theistic mental gymnastics.

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Oh sure, it's a problem to move from causality to a personality that's for sure.

LordReed:
Because the proposed supernatural entity aka god is incoherent and does not fit any aspect of reality. When something doesn't exist definitions or word play will not make it gain existence.

Investigation won't make your god appear just like Investigation into any of the other natural phenomena we previously had no knowledge of did not cause any god to be evident. So I have no good reason to believe this will be any different.

This is babyish talk. By saying investigation won't make it appear even sounds much more incoherent. Because investigation doesn't make anything appear. It reveals what's already there.

And as I said earlier, your capacity to perceive is in itself a limit on your investigation. There are frequencies you cannot perceive and therefore cannot investigate. In fact, a dog and an elephant have better chances than you a human. If you can still argue this, it means you're closed to anything logical, you just want to keep on believing what you believe.

See, as it stands, heaven could be within our universe billions or even trillions of light years away. And also, both God and heaven could also be around us in a frequency we can never naturally perceive. I also believe that there are frequencies in which even our solid state here cannot be perceived.

Know your limitations and stop pretending you know everything and can access everything.

What I know is that Prayer as a spiritual exercise, when practiced consistently can make you perceive things from a different frequency that others cannot perceive.

LordReed:
I am not sure why you are agreeing with him saying atheists say nothing caused the big bang. Also because of the currently inscrutable nature of beyond the earliest moments of the big bang no candidate explanations as of yet can fit properly since we can't even find the language to describe it yet. The matter is not concluded by any stretch of the imagination.

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I don't agree with him saying that atheists make such a claim. Indeed I specifically said he is misrepresenting you a bit.

You will see that in the post I agreed to, he was not talking about atheists claiming that. He was addressing atheists saying the cause is unknown and concluded that saying a thing is unknown is different from saying it doesn't exist. That's what I agreed with.

FxMasterz:
And as I said earlier, your capacity to perceive is in itself a limit on your investigation. There are frequencies you cannot perceive and therefore cannot investigate. In fact, a dog and an elephant have better chances than you a human.

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Too true.

See, as it stands, heaven could be within our universe billions or even trillions of light years away. And also, both God and heaven could also be around us in a frequency we can never naturally perceive. I also believe that there are frequencies in which even our solid state here cannot be perceived.

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Too well said. Very well said. I believe that much that we dispute is actually all around us, simply invisible and imperceptible - to most.

What I know is that Prayer as a spiritual exercise, when practiced consistently can make you perceive things from a different frequency that others cannot perceive.

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Certain types of meditation I would say. Certain types of openness of spirit and mind, certain types of detachment from the physical. Such as astral travel, out of body experiences for example.

DeepSight:
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Too true.


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Too well said. Very well said. I believe that much that we dispute is actually all around us, simply invisible and imperceptible - to most.


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Certain types of meditation I would say. Certain types of openness of spirit and mind, certain types of detachment from the physical. Such as astral travel, out of body experiences for example.

You got it bro!

Infact, it is still within logical reasoning frameworks to assume that the universe itself may be God. We have only seen a little within the universe. No one has seen the whole universe let alone seeing the outside of it.

We cannot truly know what the universe is until we can observe it from the outside of the universe itself. What if this universe itself is a huge living being that has a different build from us, and the planets, and all heavenly bodies are parts of what keeps it alive?

All descriptions of the universe are based on what we see on its inside from its inside. Imagine the microbes inside your gut describing you on the basis of what they see in your stomach? Atheists just need to think harder and stop being myopic. I hope lordreed and jaephoenix in particular are reading.

If the universe is a “being,” then we would see:

- Stars/galaxies as cells?
- Black holes as… pores?
- Humans as microbes in its gut?

No one can ever tell.

Modified: Just thinking out loud. The essence is for us to know that there are possibilities beyond our natural scope.