₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
From my own reading, it is you who sees the core debate as you've expounded.

Nigeria's underdevelopment is due to bad ideology, and that ideology is religion based, which is why some go to a priest for healing instead of to a qualified doctor, and pray for their daily bread instead of seeking it with the sweat of their brow.

I do not however agree that a religion like Christianity and Islam or even our traditional worship can not be suppressed, so education is the way to go, as it would significantly inform individual choice. And that suppression will involve limiting where religion is preached (and taught), hence definitely not in the education system.

You came into this discussion late hence the reason you are making the same fundamental errors like jaephoenix..

First, you are cherry picking evidence from the Bible. You quote biblical passages about faith while ignoring verses that clearly command hard work, prudence, and seeking skilled helped, eg, the parable of the Talents, "he who does not work shall not eat", "the sick needs a physician". "the sweat of your brow" You have used selective reading to support a preconceived conclusion, not honest analysis.

Second, you are confusing correlation with causation and revealing a clear religious bias. You observe that some people choose prayer over doctors and conclude that Christianity is the cause of underdevelopment, ignoring that Nigeria has millions of Muslims who follow the Qur'an. This is a logical error.

Your cherry picked biblical verses ignore the Qur'an's equally strong commands for action, work, and seeking knowledge. For example, the Qur'an states , "Tie your camel and then put your trust in Allah", emphasizing practical action before faith. Therefore, the behavior you describe cannot be blamed on "religion" as a monolithic cause.

The vast majority of Nigerians, including devout believers of both faiths, do seek medical care and work tirelessly. You are taking the passive behavior of a minority and incorrectly attributing a national crisis to religious texts, while ignoring the real systemic causes: failed infrastructure, poor education, and corrupt governance.

Furthermore, your language is imprecise and unscientific. You use terms like , "some" and "a few", which are meaningless without data. In any rigoruos analysis, sample size and reoresentativeness matters a lot. You cannot diagnose a nation's problem based on vague anecdotal observations.

In addition, you misunderstand the nature of religion and suppression. Religion is , at its core, a system of internal belief. Its outer expression (preaching, rituals) is just one manifestation. Millions are deeply religious without ever attending a gathering. Therefore, you cannot suppress religion by simply removing it from school curricula or banning public preaching.

The only way to diminish its influence over public life is to outcompete it with better ideas, through education, critical thinking, and tangible improvement in quality life

And the UK proves my point, not yours. The UK is developed not because it suppressed religion, but because it invested in education, science, and strong institutions. Its secular public sphere is the result of that educated, critical populace, not the cause of its development .The UK has not banned religion or is actively suppressing it. It has only separated church from state to protect pluralism.

Therefore, you have presented correlation, anecdote, and selective reading as causation. Until you can provide empirical causal evidence that religion, not poor governance, poverty, or lack of education, is the primary cause of Nigeria's underdevelopment, your argument remains an ideological opinion, not factual analysis.

Invest in people's minds, not policing their beliefs.

triplechoice:
You came into this discussion late hence the reason you are making the same fundamental errors like jaephoenix..

I hope you are aware the entire conversation is still there for anyone to read from the beginning, which I did.

I never said "Christianity is the cause of underdevelopment" in Nigeria, because that is just a stupid thing to say, considering Christianity is not the only religion in Nigeria, and the fact that Britain and the West, that some would say is developed was very Christian in its past. What UK has that Nigeria has little of is the promotion of critical thought, which is a subject taught from primary school here, and could be said to have replaced religious belief. Religious belief has in fact been eliminated from the public sphere, and is a very private thing here. Critical thought, as opposed to belief, is what brought on the age of enlightenment, and which is what we would like introduced (more) in Nigeria.

The Bible and the Quran both have it written in it that one should work for ones food too, but it is not unusual for many to beg for their daily bread, which just shows that being religious doesn't mean they follow what their holy book says. If people did, atheist me would be promoting the religions because the books are precious to me.

I do not want to suppress anyone's religion however, and it is not suppressed here, though it historically has been. Catholicism was prohibited in UK I'd have you know, with cathedrals literally stripped and torn down. And the Catholic Bible was banned from England, hence the King James Version. The religion that was promoted to replace it, though still Christianity, was cleansed of a lot of beliefs that were not welcomed here. The Church of England does not even require belief, which is why you'd find atheist me in a church. The fruit of ones actions are valued more, and is why predominant Christian London, if any religion can claim predominance in London, elected a Muslim as mayor three times.

If Nigeria wants to progress, it must abandon a lot of the beliefs it holds dear (some of which is a lack of understanding of the religious books and the plastering of what is thought to be Islam and Christianity over our pre-christian/islam ideology). We must read the books with an inquisitive mind instead of just believing what we think we understand is written in those books

As far as health goes, it might help if we build more hospitals instead of religious temples. And we can go futher by teaching healthy lifestyles from primary school instead of leaving our health to the gods.

I have ignored your allegations and accusations because they are just your own biases, note. I am not here to score points, because it is foolish to ignore our common ground, which you intelligently expressed and which I have included below.

triplechoice:
The only way to diminish its influence over public life is to outcompete it with better ideas, through education, critical thinking, and tangible improvement in quality life.

This is how UK suppressed (if one may use that word) religion, though it did include steps like abolishing preaching in schools too.

budaatum:
I do not however agree that a religion like Christianity and Islam or even our traditional worship can not be suppressed, so education is the way to go, as it would significantly inform individual choice. And that suppression will involve limiting where religion is preached (and taught), hence definitely not in the education system.

Triplechoice, I have corrected my previous, as indicated above.

Religion can not be suppressed, and should not be suppressed. I express this view when some claim Islam is being imposed on Nigeria. How the imposers intend to eliminate Jesus worship amuses me.

Our religious understanding does however need to evolve. And one sort of evolution in understanding is in seeing Eve using her senses as Eve doing science, as in using her own senses to critically check if eating fruits of knowledge kills, which in my own understanding makes her the first scientist, though I know she never really existed.

And yes, the Bible also has it written in it that knowledge does not kill (as does the Qur'an) despite it also claiming it would kill Adam if he acquired it. It is such contradictions that make the holy books so valuable for me, because they should make inquisitive minds wonder.

budaatum:
I hope you are aware the entire conversation is still there for anyone to read from the beginning, which I did.

I never said "Christianity is the cause of underdevelopment" in Nigeria, because that is just a stupid thing to say, considering Christianity is not the only religion in Nigeria, and the fact that Britain and the West, that some would say is developed was very Christian in its past. What UK has that Nigeria has little of is the promotion of critical thought, which is a subject taught from primary school here, and could be said to have replaced religious belief. Religious belief has in fact been eliminated from the public sphere, and is a very private thing here. Critical thought, as opposed to belief, is what brought on the age of enlightenment, and which is what we would like introduced (more) in Nigeria.

The Bible and the Quran both have it written in it that one should work for ones food too, but it is not unusual for many to beg for their daily bread, which just shows that being religious doesn't mean they follow what their holy book says. If people did, atheist me would be promoting the religions because the books are precious to me.

I do not want to suppress anyone's religion however, and it is not suppressed here, though it historically has been. Catholicism was prohibited in UK I'd have you know, with cathedrals literally stripped and torn down. And the Catholic Bible was banned from England, hence the King James Version. The religion that was promoted to replace it, though still Christianity, was cleansed of a lot of beliefs that were not welcomed here. The Church of England does not even require belief, which is why you'd find atheist me in a church. The fruit of ones actions are valued more, and is why predominant Christian London, if any religion can claim predominance in London, elected a Muslim as mayor three times.

If Nigeria wants to progress, it must abandon a lot of the beliefs it holds dear (some of which is a lack of understanding of the religious books and the plastering of what is thought to be Islam and Christianity over our pre-christian/islam ideology). We must read the books with an inquisitive mind instead of just believing what we think we understand is written in those books

As far as health goes, it might help if we build more hospitals instead of religious temples. And we can go futher by teaching healthy lifestyles from primary school instead of leaving our health to the gods.

I have ignored your allegations and accusations because they are just your own biases, note. I am not here to score points, because it is foolish to ignore our common ground, which you intelligently expressed and which I have included below.



This is how UK suppressed (if one may use that word) religion, though it did include steps like abolishing preaching in schools too.

You continue to shift the goalposts and to obscure your original bias while failing to address the core issues directly.

You claim you never blamed Christianity, yet your entire argument was built on exclusively Christian examples, praying for daily bread, seeking priests for healing Instead of doctors, citing the Bible indirectly. You did not for once reference Islamic practice or the Quran to explain national problem affecting both faiths. This selective focus reveals a tacit bias, whether you consciously, admit it or not

And you continue to rely on vague, unsupported anecdotes, "many beg". This is not argumentation, it's generalisation. If you wish to make a factual claim about behaviour, provide data'. Otherwise, it remains a personal impression, not a basis for national policy.

Concerning, "suppression vs "secularisation" , you fundamentally misunderstand the UK's history. The break with the Catholic church was a political and doctrinal schism within Christianity, not a suppression of religion. The Anglican church that replaced it was, and remains, a state religion. The secular public sphere in the UK today is the result of the Enlightenment, education, critical thought, not a state policy of "abolishing" belief. This is the crucial distinction; the UK educated it's way to secularism, it did not at any time deliberately tried to suppress its way to development. You are conflating the two

I am happy we both agree on the need for critical thought and education. That has been my central argument from the start. Where we disagree is your insistence on framing this as needing to "abandon beliefs" or " suppress" religion. The goal is not to make people atheists. The goal. is to empower them with the tools to think for themselves so it becomes difficult to manipulate them.

A person can be deeply religious and also a critical thinker, a scientist, and a productive citizen. The problem in Nigeria is not the presence of belief, but the absence of the educational framework that allows belief and reason to coexist productively

You're advocating for education, which I support, but dressing it up in the language of cultural suppression, which I reject. Let's focus on building the schools, training the teachers, and strengthening the institution's . Empower the people, and they will navigate their beliefs, or lack thereof, just fine, as they do in every truly developed society.

triplechoice:
You claim you never blamed Christianity, yet your entire argument was built on exclusively Christian examples, praying for daily bread, seeking priests for healing Instead of doctors, citing the Bible indirectly. You did not for once reference Islamic practice or the Quran ...

Sorry Triple, but if my mentioning Islam and the Quran and even traditional religions is insufficient for you I can not help you any further.

budaatum:
Sorry Triple, but if my mentioning Islam and the Quran and even traditional religions is insufficient for you I can not help you any further.

Your casual mention of Islam and traditional religion is insufficient to dispel the bias evident in your argument. Bias is shown not by a checklist of name , but by what you choose to ignore.

Your entire argument focused on behaviours stereotypically associated with certain Christians, "praying for daily bread" "seeking pastors over doctors", using exclusively biblically references. You did not critique a single practice unique to Islam or traditional faiths in this context, either looking forward to virgins in the afterlife or doing money rituals instead or hardwork. That is selective focus, which is the essence of bias.

More importantly, your analysis suffers from a far greater and more damaging bias: the deliberate exclusion of non believers from any blame.

You argued that religion and religious people are the problem. But who makes up the rest of Nigeria? Atheists, agnostics, myself included, and the irreligious are also citizens. If we're diagnosing a national failure, everyone must be in the diagnosis. To scapegoat one group is not just biased, it's intellectually dishonest and practically useless.

Who are the corrupt politicians looting funds for schools and hospitals? They are of all faiths and none. Many are arguably less constrained by religious moral codes.

Who violates traffic laws, evades taxes, and dump waste in canals? Nigerians of every belief, atheists and the irreligious included.

Who are the Nigerians with a reputation for lawlessness abroad? All. It is a national behavioural problem. An intelligent Ghanaian lady I once dated in Ghana said this to me; "the difference between you Nigerians and we Ghanaians is that while we obey our laws, you Nigerians don't obey your country's laws."
[b]
In functional democracies, secularisation was driven by atheists and freethinkers who took reai action, they built institutions, advanced science, and held power accountable. What have many Nigerian atheists done? A great number of them hide on social media, blaming the most vulnerable, the poor church or mosque ", goer" the victim of a broken system, while enjoying salaries from religious employers they publicly vilify. Yes a lot of atheists in this country are in the employ of religious people who they blame for the country's "demise". They do not lead the protest or build the alternatives they claim are needed. This is hypocrisy and cowardice. The Dangotes and the Otedolas of this country you dismiss as " believing in fairy tales written by primitive men", actually build industries and employ people. Dangote is a devout Muslim. Where are the atheist industrialists like those of other countries ( Elon Musk for instance) providing a tangible secular alternative model of success?.

The owner of this platform is an atheist whose business depends on the patronage of believers he often allows to be ridiculed. This is the paradox: a vocal minority benefits from the society it claims is solely ruined by the beliefs of the majority.[/b]

My position is this: Blaming ", religion" lets everyone off the hook, the corrupt atheist official, the lawless agnostic driver, the cynical troll who attacks from the shadows. It creates a simple villain and excuses the rest of us from introspection.

The solution is not to. ", suppress religion" or swap one groups dogma for another's. The solution is what I have always said: universal quality education, strong institutions, and the rule of law. This will empower everyone, believers and non believers alike, to contribute responsibly. Until your analysis includes all Nigerians in both the problem and the solution., it is not just biased, it is a distraction from the hardwork of national building.



Stop the scapegoating. Start thinking systemically. Nigeria is not the only country in the world whose citizens follow the Bible or the Quran. It has not stopped the development of many others. What stops development is the failure to build the institutions that allow a diverse society, of all faiths and none, to thrive.

budaatum:
I hope you are aware the entire conversation is still there for anyone to read from the beginning, which I did.

I never said "Christianity is the cause of underdevelopment" in Nigeria, because that is just a stupid thing to say, considering Christianity is not the only religion in Nigeria, and the fact that Britain and the West, that some would say is developed was very Christian in its past. What UK has that Nigeria has little of is the promotion of critical thought, which is a subject taught from primary school here, and could be said to have replaced religious belief. Religious belief has in fact been eliminated from the public sphere, and is a very private thing here. Critical thought, as opposed to belief, is what brought on the age of enlightenment, and which is what we would like introduced (more) in Nigeria.

The Bible and the Quran both have it written in it that one should work for ones food too, but it is not unusual for many to beg for their daily bread, which just shows that being religious doesn't mean they follow what their holy book says. If people did, atheist me would be promoting the religions because the books are precious to me.

I do not want to suppress anyone's religion however, and it is not suppressed here, though it historically has been. Catholicism was prohibited in UK I'd have you know, with cathedrals literally stripped and torn down. And the Catholic Bible was banned from England, hence the King James Version. The religion that was promoted to replace it, though still Christianity, was cleansed of a lot of beliefs that were not welcomed here. The Church of England does not even require belief, which is why you'd find atheist me in a church. The fruit of ones actions are valued more, and is why predominant Christian London, if any religion can claim predominance in London, elected a Muslim as mayor three times.

If Nigeria wants to progress, it must abandon a lot of the beliefs it holds dear (some of which is a lack of understanding of the religious books and the plastering of what is thought to be Islam and Christianity over our pre-christian/islam ideology). We must read the books with an inquisitive mind instead of just believing what we think we understand is written in those books

As far as health goes, it might help if we build more hospitals instead of religious temples. And we can go futher by teaching healthy lifestyles from primary school instead of leaving our health to the gods.

I have ignored your allegations and accusations because they are just your own biases, note. I am not here to score points, because it is foolish to ignore our common ground, which you intelligently expressed and which I have included below.



This is how UK suppressed (if one may use that word) religion, though it did include steps like abolishing preaching in schools too.

Astute
Which city in the UK are you in?

jaephoenix:
Astute
Which city in the UK are you in?

Lewisham. My birth borough.

You?

triplechoice:
Nigeria is not the only country in the world whose citizens follow the Bible or the Quran. It has not stopped the development of many others.

I think you type more than you read. You wouldn't bother saying this to me if you had comprehended I wrote:

"I never said "Christianity is the cause of underdevelopment" in Nigeria, because that is just a stupid thing to say, considering Christianity is not the only religion in Nigeria, and the fact that Britain and the West, that some would say is developed was very Christian in its past."

You not hearing makes it tedious conversing with you.

budaatum:
I think you type more than you read. You wouldn't bother saying this to me if you had comprehended I wrote:

"I never said "Christianity is the cause of underdevelopment" in Nigeria, because that is just a stupid thing to say, considering Christianity is not the only religion in Nigeria, and the fact that Britain and the West, that some would say is developed was very Christian in its past."

You not hearing makes it tedious conversing with you.

No . you never said so.
The statement you quoted was a broad conclusion to the core debate, summarising the flawed argument put forth by jaephoenix that not "suppressing religion" alone is the cause of Nigeria's "demise. It was not a specific accusation directed at you .

In fact, I clearly noted our agreement on the real solution : investing in education and institutions. My concluding observation was about the wide pattern of the debate, not about your personally.

I apologise if the phrasing was unclear, but the intent was to close the loop on the main argument so it doesn't drift any further, and not to target you. Our common ground on education remains the most important point. Let's focus on that.

triplechoice:
Our common ground on education remains the most important point. Let's focus on that.

Respect.

budaatum:
Lewisham. My birth borough.

You?

I worked in Ancoats then Salford,all in Manchester. Wasn't born there tho

triplechoice:
No . you never said so.
The statement you quoted was a broad conclusion to the core debate, summarising the flawed argument put forth by jaephoenix that not "suppressing religion" alone is the cause of Nigeria's "demise. It was not a specific accusation directed at you .

In fact, I clearly noted our agreement on the real solution : investing in education and institutions. My concluding observation was about the wide pattern of the debate, not about your personally.

I apologise if the phrasing was unclear, but the intent was to close the loop on the main argument so it doesn't drift any further, and not to target you. Our common ground on education remains the most important point. Let's focus on that.

https://www.nairaland.com/8604257/how-brothers-fetish-girlfriend-almost
Triplechoice look at this article. This is exactly what I'm talking about. A physician cannot handle a case. What does he do? Instead of referring, he tells the folks to go spiritual,and of course,they will end up in a church and say the doctors have tried their best. As a doctor,you cant know every disease,or its management. Thats why we have a referral system in place. You have primary,seondary, tertiary and even quartenary levels of care.Refer to specialists to do their thing. This mindset is common amongst doctors in Africa,not just Nigeria. You cant try this in advanced countries,your license would just evaporate instantly. I keep on telling me but you have decided to stuff cotton wool in your ears
Learn!

jaephoenix:
https://www.nairaland.com/8604257/how-brothers-fetish-girlfriend-almost
Triplechoice look at this article. This is exactly what I'm talking about. A physician cannot handle a case. What does he do? Instead of referring, he tells the folks to go spiritual,and of course,they will end up in a church and say the doctors have tried their best. As a doctor,you cant know every disease,or its management. Thats why we have a referral system in place. You have primary,seondary, tertiary and even quartenary levels of care.Refer to specialists to do their thing. This mindset is common amongst doctors in Africa,not just Nigeria. You cant try this in advanced countries,your license would just evaporate instantly. I keep on telling me but you have decided to stuff cotton wool in your ears
Learn!

You're deflecting. The main debate was never about whether isolated cases of medical misconduct exist. The debate was "Does suppressing religion cause a country's development?

You have failed to prove that. Instead, you've shifted to sharing anecdotal stories, which, even if true, are individual ethical failures, not evidence of your original thesis. Worse, you have taken these stories out of their context. A family friend doctor, in a hopeless case suggesting spiritual comfort is not the same as systemic malpractice. If the doctor were a stranger, or if the family were Muslim or atheist, such suggestion would be highly unlikely. Context matters, and you consistently ignore it. Do you expect the family to report their own friend for a suggestion they, as fellow believers, likely agreed with?

You, however, have no such excuse. As an atheist who claims to have repeatedly witnessed this malpractice, your failure to report it, using the flimsy excuse of the MDCN'S religious composition, makes you complicit. In the very countries you praise, your licence would be at risk for such consistent inaction. You are part of the problem you describe.

You also continue to contradict yourself. You claim this is "common", but if it were truly a common practice, formal reports and institutional data would exist, not just your unverified stories. Nobody is calling you a liar . Your stories could be true or false. But if you want to be believed, you must provide verifiable evidence, not hide behind the weak defense of , "you don't know this cos you ain't a doc".

Please return to the main debate or concede. Show the causal link between not suppressing religion and national underdevelopment. Everything else is a distraction .

triplechoice:
You're deflecting. The main debate was never about whether isolated cases of medical misconduct exist. The debate was "Does suppressing religion cause a country's development?

You have failed to prove that. Instead, you've shifted to sharing anecdotal stories, which, even if true, are individual ethical failures, not evidence of your original thesis. Worse, you have taken these stories out of their context. A family friend doctor, in a hopeless case suggesting spiritual comfort is not the same as systemic malpractice. If the doctor were a stranger, or if the family were Muslim or atheist, such suggestion would be highly unlikely. Context matters, and you consistently ignore it. Do you expect the family to report their own friend for a suggestion they, as fellow believers, likely agreed with?

You, however, have no such excuse. As an atheist who claims to have repeatedly witnessed this malpractice, your failure to report it, using the flimsy excuse of the MDCN'S religious composition, makes you complicit. In the very countries you praise, your licence would be at risk for such consistent inaction. You are part of the problem you describe.

You also continue to contradict yourself. You claim this is "common", but if it were truly a common practice, formal reports and institutional data would exist, not just your unverified stories. Nobody is calling you a liar . Your stories could be true or false. But if you want to be believed, you must provide verifiable evidence, not hide behind the weak defense of , "you don't know this cos you ain't a doc".

Please return to the main debate or concede. Show the causal link between not suppressing religion and national underdevelopment. Everything else is a distraction .

These are not isolated cases. These are common occurrences. The way you argue confidently with a doctor concerning medical practice is amusing. The doctor is telling you something is common practice nd you're insisting it's not and telling me it's an anecdotal. I have told you several times that i have not done a poll on doctors to know their tendencies to attribute anything to spiritual,so whatever I'm saying is an estimate based off my practice experience. I hope this sticks to your brain and you won't say I'm contradicting myself

jaephoenix:
These are not isolated cases. These are common occurrences. The way you argue confidently with a doctor concerning medical practice is amusing. The doctor is telling you something is common practice nd you're insisting it's not and telling me it's an anecdotal. I have told you several times that i have not done a poll on doctors to know their tendencies to attribute anything to spiritual,so whatever I'm saying is an estimate based off my practice experience. I hope this sticks to your brain and you won't say I'm contradicting myself

I will ignore your condescension. It is irrelevant. You continue to shift the goalposts, moving from "rife" to. "not very common" and back to "common occurrences", all while admitting your claims are estimates with no data. This is the definition of an unreliable, contradictory narrative. On a forum where anyone can claim to be anything, your credibility is your evidence, not your self proclaimed title, "doc"

Besides, I am not "confidently arguing medical practice" with you. I am demanding you provide evidence for your claims. Do not confuse the two.

Moreover, @DrAda whose professional opinion I sought, spoke clearly: such conduct is not standard practice and is a reportable ethical breach. She never claimed you lied, nor expressed doubt about your stories. Yet you misconstrued this professional standard as a personal attack. It is telling that I, a non-professional, understood her position perfectly, while you, a claimed doctor, struggled to grasp it.


And again, your excuse for not reporting; that the MDCN is "filled with Christians,
is a demonstrable lie. Its composition, I just found out by asking and researching, is a statutory national body representing the entire profession across Nigeria, including the Federal Ministry of Health and associations representing all practitioners. So your claim is a lie invented to justify your own inaction. Claiming it's homogeneously Christian is as absurd as saying the ICAN or NBA are. If you insist on this, provide the evidence.

The irony that has emerged from our conversation is this: you demand evidence from religious people all the time, but you offer only unverified, shifting anecdotes as your own proof. If this were truly common occurrences, it would be widely documented, not confined to stories.

But even accepting your anecdotes as true, you have completely failed your original task.

How do these stories proof that not suppressing religion causes underdevelopment. They don't. They are a deflection.

You're part of the problem you describe. The professional advice was clear: report malpractice, don't weaponise it online.

The task before you is simple. Provide the causal link between religion and underdevelopment with evidence, or concede your argument is baseless. That's all.

Here below is a screenshot which clearly shows the composition of MDCN. So you lie.

If we believe your claims about the MDCN then it means every doctor in Nigeria is a Christian. All the workers in the Federal ministry of health are Christians. Chai. See person I dey waste my time dey argue with.

Modified: Its current registrar, Professor Fatima Kyari, who oversees the day to day adminstration of the council, is a Muslim.