₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
Jesus says to treat the unrepentant person as a Gentile and a tax collector.

NO!
He said his disciples should treat those who are unrepentant wrongdoers among them the same way Jews treat tax collectors and sinners. Otherwise he would have said treat such ones as your brothers!🙂

Discipline is what faithless and evil people hates but the true God will never hold it back from His own worshipers! Proverbs 22:15

So God's word concludes:

True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

Therefore let everyone know that Jesus instituted the punishment of shunning wrongdoers among his disciples {Matthew 18:15-17} and his disciples are still holding unto his teachings till today! Romans 16:17 compare to 2John 10-11

MaxInDHouse:
Discipline is what faithless and evil people hates but the true God will never hold it back from His own worshipers! Proverbs 22:15

So God's word concludes:

True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

Therefore let everyone know that Jesus instituted the punishment of shunning wrongdoers among his disciples {Matthew 18:15-17} and his disciples are still holding unto his teachings till today! Romans 16:17 compare to 2John 10-11

MaxInDHouse:
NO!
He said his disciples should treat those who are unrepentant wrongdoers among them the same way Jews treat tax collectors and sinners. Otherwise he would have said treat such ones as your brothers!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
You misconstrued the whole thing!

According to Jesus true Christian are one family so there is no mother, father, brother, sister or any family ties above what we share as Christ's disciples that is why Jesus told the person who felt Jesus should attend to his mother first instead of leaving her to wait while attending to his disciples! Matthew 12:46-50
So if anyone wants to continue being a member of the group he or she should not allow any other ties to supercede what we have as Christians.

You need to see how this makes Islam vulnerable to internal conflicts because if that is how your religion is structured there can't be any war among believers but since you people hold your worldly families above your brothers in Islam it's easy for Satan to instigate you people into killing yourselves yet claiming brothers in the same faith!🙂

Your keep breaking appart your own argument due to its own inconsistencies. Matthew 12:46–50 does not eliminate the concept of family; rather, it broadens it. Jesus never instructs people to abandon their biological relatives; that idea is a fabrication. In reality, he made sure to take care of his mother while on the cross (John 19:26–27) and criticized the Pharisees for using their faith to shirk family responsibilities (Mark 7:9–13). Your approach reflects the same hypocrisy he condemned. The idea of treating someone as a tax collector or sinner backfires because Jesus interacted with them, engaged in conversation, and sought to restore them (Matt 9:10–11; Luke 19:5–10). Interpreting this as a form of shunning reflects the disdain of the Pharisees rather than the compassion of Jesus.

The verses you reference do not support your claims. Hebrews 12:11 states that discipline yields positive results only for those who are trained by it, which isn’t possible without interaction. 2 John 10–11 addresses itinerant false teachers, not familial relationships. Romans 16:17 advises avoiding divisive teachings but does not mandate complete silence with family members. The critical contradiction lies in 1 Timothy 5:8, which states that neglecting one’s family is a denial of faith.

You cannot support your relatives while treating them as if they don’t exist. Paul clearly states in 2 Thessalonians 3:14–15 to not associate with those who are disruptive but not to treat them as enemies; instead, warn them as a brother. Complete shunning directly contradicts this guidance.

Your your stance treats former members worse than enemies whom Jesus instructs us to love, worse than non-believers (with whom you are willing to associate), and worse than how Jesus treated well-known sinners. This approach does not align with biblical discipline; it resembles an attempt at organizational control through emotional manipulation.

honesttalk21:
Your keep breaking appart your own argument due to its own inconsistencies. Matthew 12:46–50 does not eliminate the concept of family; rather, it broadens it. Jesus never instructs people to abandon their biological relatives; that idea is a fabrication.

Jesus left home and stick to his disciples that is why his mother and brothers were looking for him {Matthew 12:46} in fact at a point in time they concluded he has lost his mind {Mark 3:21} and that is exactly the same thing his disciples did! Matthew 19:27
So he believes that faith is the strongest bond of union not blood relations! Matthew 12:47-50🙂

honesttalk21:
In reality, he made sure to take care of his mother while on the cross (John 19:26–27) and criticized the Pharisees for using their faith to shirk family responsibilities (Mark 7:9–13). Your approach reflects the same hypocrisy he condemned.

By the time Jesus asked apostle John to take care of Mary he was reminding John of his teachings that Mary has now become a member of the Christian faith since she's been going about with his disciples which the first century Jewish community forbid at the time {John 9:22} so Jesus instructed John to take Mary as his mother in the faith because her other children has abandoned her she is now a Christian always attending meetings with Jesus' disciples and two of his brothers namely James and Jude also became Christians! Act 1:14
The Pharisees were looking down on their fellow worshipers despite the fact that they are all practicing Judaism the case differs from what Christians believe.🙂

honesttalk21:
The idea of treating someone as a tax collector or sinner backfires because Jesus interacted with them, engaged in conversation, and sought to restore them (Matt 9:10–11; Luke 19:5–10). Interpreting this as a form of shunning reflects the disdain of the Pharisees rather than the compassion of Jesus.

I know you are lying to yourself.
Treating someone as a tax collector is what Jesus told them but when the tax collector embrace Christianity he must be treated as a fellow believer (brother) it's someone who turns against the faith that must be treated like that now not a believer who works in the tax office.🙂

honesttalk21:
The verses you reference do not support your claims. Hebrews 12:11 states that discipline yields positive results only for those who are trained by it, which isn’t possible without interaction. 2 John 10–11 addresses itinerant false teachers, not familial relationships. Romans 16:17 advises avoiding divisive teachings but does not mandate complete silence with family members. The critical contradiction lies in 1 Timothy 5:8, which states that neglecting one’s family is a denial of faith.

Shunning is the disciplinary action to be taken against UNREPENTANT WRONGDOER not a sinner. I keep telling you that. If a person commits a sin we don't shun him or her but when such a person insists claiming he is right that's when shunning him applies as disciplinary action! Matthew 18:15-17🙂

honesttalk21:
You cannot support your relatives while treating them as if they don’t exist. Paul clearly states in 2 Thessalonians 3:14–15 to not associate with those who are disruptive but not to treat them as enemies; instead, warn them as a brother. Complete shunning directly contradicts this guidance.

Shunning doesn't mean such a person is no longer your blood relation if he is related to you by blood it's sacred matters that won't exist between you and such a person after all he is no longer interested in the faith that binds fellow believers together but as for other believers we must shun him since we aren't related to him in any way other than through faith so if he chooses to cut that ties so be it.🙂

honesttalk21:
Your your stance treats former members worse than enemies whom Jesus instructs us to love, worse than non-believers (with whom you are willing to associate), and worse than how Jesus treated well-known sinners. This approach does not align with biblical discipline; it resembles an attempt at organizational control through emotional manipulation.

According to the Christian faith such a person is worse than an unbeliever so we must treat him as he chooses! 1Corinthans 5:5; 11-13🙂

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus left home and stick to his disciples that is why his mother and brothers were looking for him {Matthew 12:46} in fact at a point in time they concluded he has lost his mind {Mark 3:21} and that is exactly the same thing his disciples did! Matthew 19:27
So he believes that faith is the strongest bond of union not blood relations! Matthew 12:47-50🙂



By the time Jesus asked apostle John to take care of Mary he was reminding John of his teachings that Mary has now become a member of the Christian faith since she's been going about with his disciples which the first century Jewish community forbid at the time {John 9:22} so Jesus instructed John to take Mary as his mother in the faith because her other children has abandoned her she is now a Christian always attending meetings with Jesus' disciples and two of his brothers namely James and Jude also became Christians! Act 1:14
The Pharisees were looking down on their fellow worshipers despite the fact that they are all practicing Judaism the case differs from what Christians believe.🙂


I know you are lying to yourself.
Treating someone as a tax collector is what Jesus told them but when the tax collector embrace Christianity he must be treated as a fellow believer (brother) it's someone who turns against the faith that must be treated like that now not a believer who works in the tax office.🙂


Shunning is the disciplinary action to be taken against UNREPENTANT WRONGDOER not a sinner. I keep telling you that. If a person commits a sin we don't shun him or her but when such a person insists claiming he is right that's when shunning him applies as disciplinary action! Matthew 18:15-17🙂


Shunning doesn't mean such a person is no longer your blood relation if he is related to you by blood it's sacred matters that won't exist between you and such a person after all he is no longer interested in the faith that binds fellow believers together but as for other believers we must shun him since we aren't related to him in any way other than through faith so if he chooses to cut that ties so be it.🙂


According to the Christian faith such a person is worse than an unbeliever so we must treat him as he chooses! 1Corinthans 5:5; 11-13🙂

I ask you. If Jesus stayed at home how will he have accomplished his goals as a prophet?

Do you say Mary wasn't regarded as righteous before the death of Jesus?

Tax collectors were agents of the oppressive Romans weren't they? Do people even today joyfully pay tax or see it as a duty they have no choice but to pay? In interacting with the collectors how do they act? Be absolutely truthful.

Shunning is not discipline but rejection to force compliance. Is that the only way to effectively discipline? Did Jesus do that to achieve discipline? Why can't you engage and discourse to achieve the same result? No it has to be isolation to bring emotional trouble and forceful compliance. Justify your extreme ways that doesn't always work. Well over 60% that are shunned do not return. Is that the aim?

Of what use is an artificial relationship when you are treated like a stranger from the enemies side?

Was it Jesus who gave you 1Corinthans 5:5; 11-13? Doesn't it contrast the goal to restore? So it's better to dissociate from who gets lost that Jesus says he was sent to? Do make that make sense.

honesttalk21:
I ask you. If Jesus stayed at home how will he have accomplished his goals as a prophet?

Prophets before Jesus did not abandon their homes to start gathering followers and no prophet before him said only his followers are true worshipers of God.

honesttalk21:
Do you say Mary wasn't regarded as righteous before the death of Jesus?

There is a difference between righteous and holy there were many righteous Judaists who became Christians in other to be holy so if Mary never become one of Jesus' followers she is doomed and her righteousness will be in vain!

honesttalk21:
Tax collectors were agents of the oppressive Romans weren't they? Do people even today joyfully pay tax or see it as a duty they have no choice but to pay? In interacting with the collectors how do they act? Be absolutely truthful.

They are civil servants and God has not given the kingdom to Israel so whoever is working under the Roman empire is not evil rather such a person should be respected like Shadrach Meshak and Abednego who were working under the Babylonian King.

honesttalk21:
Shunning is not discipline but rejection to force compliance. Is that the only way to effectively discipline? Did Jesus do that to achieve discipline? Why can't you engage and discourse to achieve the same result? No it has to be isolation to bring emotional trouble and forceful compliance. Justify your extreme ways that doesn't always work. Well over 60% that are shunned do not return. Is that the aim?

Highlighted shows you've not been reading my posts instead you're just arguing aimlessly.
I told you that we must first speak with the wrongdoer several times in a one on one conversation and also take two believers to him and finally the elders of the church will intervene before we take the bold step to SHUN him if he refuses to accept his guilt. Read Matthew 18:15-17 before arguing further.

honesttalk21:
Of what use is an artificial relationship when you are treated like a stranger from the enemies side?

There is no relationship with an apostate once you become an apostate we shun you completely in fact you are worse than a boko haram to us.

honesttalk21:
Was it Jesus who gave you 1Corinthans 5:5; 11-13? Doesn't it contrast the goal to restore? So it's better to dissociate from who gets lost that Jesus says he was sent to? Do make that make sense.

The LOST SHEEP are not unrepentant wrongdoers the metaphor (SHEEP) shows such a person is ever willing to be submissive to instructions from the group just as real sheep don't leave the gathering of others intentionally unless they are lost. You need to understand Christianity before thinking of how to apply what Jesus taught.
So if someone is unrepentant he is not a sheep but a goat! Matthew 25:34-46🙂

honesttalk21:
You've misrepresented Scripture, Christian history, and Islamic theology. Here's a more accurate understanding:

You've misread Matthew 18:15-17. The passage actually says, "If your brother sins against you..." and suggests treating him "as a Gentile and tax collector." This refers to resolving personal conflicts (sins against you), not addressing apostasy or doctrinal differences.

What does treating someone "as a Gentile and tax collector" really mean? Look at how Jesus interacted with them. He shared meals (Matthew 9:10-11), conversed (Matthew 15:22-28, John 4), chose one as an apostle (Matthew), and actively sought them out (Luke 19:1-10, Zacchaeus).

Following Jesus' example means maintaining relationships, continuing to share the Gospel, and seeking restoration, *not* total shunning. JW shunning, which forbids eating together, speaking (even to family), all social contact, and basic greetings, directly contradicts Jesus' approach.

You've also misapplied Romans 16:17 and 2 John 10-11. These passages address itinerant false teachers actively spreading heresy within early churches, *not* family members who leave the faith. Romans 16:17 urges us to "keep away" (Greek: *ekklínō*) from divisive teachers.

2 John 10-11 advises against hosting traveling false teachers who promote heresy. It doesn't command never speaking to former members, severing family ties, refusing meals, or imposing total social ostracism.

JWs apply this to individuals who quietly leave, those disfellowshipped for things like smoking, celebrating birthdays, or questioning doctrine, and family members with differing views. This is a distortion of the text.

Historically, your understanding of first-century Christian practice is flawed.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11 clarifies this by stating, "not at all meaning the people of this world... otherwise you would have to leave the world. But... you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral..." Paul distinguishes between unbelievers and former believers, suggesting normal daily contact is maintained with the former.

For professing Christians living in unrepentant sin, church fellowship (Lord's Supper, gatherings) is withheld. Church discipline affected *ecclesial* fellowship, not total social isolation.

2 Corinthians 2:5-8 speaks about the disciplined person, urging forgiveness, comfort, and reaffirmation of love. The goal is restoration, not permanent exile. How can you comfort someone you're forbidden to speak to?

Your claim that Muhammad (peace be upon him) taught beheading is a gross distortion and a false comparison. Islamic apostasy laws historically addressed treason, not simply a change in belief. Leaving Islam in the early Islamic state often meant joining enemy tribes actively at war with the Muslims.

Treason within a religious-political state is distinct from a simple change of belief. The Qur'an (2:256) clearly states, "There is no compulsion in religion."

In classical Islamic jurisprudence, many scholars ruled that private disbelief carries no earthly punishment. Public apostasy coupled with active warfare, however, was treated as rebellion/treason.

In today's world, most Muslim-majority countries do not execute apostates (Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia). Where harsh laws exist (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan), these represent extremist interpretations, not standard universal Islamic practice. There's a growing scholarly consensus that such punishments were contextual (early state self-defense) and not universal commands.

Historically, Christianity executed apostates for over 1,000 years. After 380 CE, heresy became a capital crime. During the Inquisition (1200s-1800s), thousands were tortured and executed.

Calvin burned Servetus for denying the Trinity in 1553. Anabaptists were drowned and burned by both Catholics and Protestants.

During the witch trials, tens of thousands were killed. Biblical texts like Deuteronomy 13:6-10 ("kill him" and Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ("stoned to death" were used to justify these actions. You're condemning Muslims for something Christians themselves did on a massive scale.

JW shunning also leads to deaths. While you claim shunning is better than execution, JW shunning has been linked to suicides, with documented cases following total family rejection. Furthermore, the blood transfusion policy, even with some modifications, has caused and continues to cause unnecessary deaths.

Research demonstrates the psychological trauma resulting from depression, PTSD, and anxiety. Social ostracism activates the same brain regions as physical pain. Family rejection is a major suicide risk factor. Total isolation is psychologically devastating.

JW shunning means parents are forbidden from speaking to adult children (even those dying of cancer), siblings are permanently cut off (unable to acknowledge each other at funerals), grandparents are denied access to grandchildren, and individuals experience total loss of family, friends, job, housing, and identity. It's emotional blackmail, expressed as "leave and lose everyone you love." This isn't loving discipline; it's psychological torture.

You ask, "Which is better?" Neither execution nor psychological torture aligns with Jesus' teachings. Jesus' actual pattern was to eat with tax collectors and sinners (Matthew 9:10-13), maintain relationships to encourage repentance (John 8:1-11, Luke 19:1-10), pursue the lost, and welcome outcasts. JWs, however, immediately cut all contact, refuse basic greetings, and destroy families, claiming this is Christian love.

The honest comparison reveals that Islam, in certain interpretations and supported by some classical rulings (which are contextual and increasingly rejected), prescribed death for apostasy as treason. Growing reform emphasizes Qur'an 2:256 ("no compulsion".

Christianity, on the other hand, actually executed thousands for centuries, using Old Testament law to justify their actions.

JWs practice a universal, mandatory shunning policy that causes documented suicides, family destruction, and psychological harm, enforced globally.

Both execution and total shunning are wrong. You're defending cruelty while condemning others for engaging in similar behavior.

Your false premises are exposed by:

1. Matthew 18:15-17 being about personal conflicts, not apostasy; Jesus engaged Gentiles and tax collectors, not shunned them.

2. Romans 16:17 and 2 John 10-11 being about traveling false teachers, not family members.

3. First-century practice showing that Church discipline was restorative and maintained daily contact with former believers.

4.Your. Christian history reveals a long period - over a thousand years - where those deemed apostates faced execution. It seems inconsistent to condemn similar actions by Muslims when Christians engaged in comparable behavior.

Furthermore, the practice of shunning by Jehovah's Witnesses has been documented to cause significant harm, including psychological distress, and in some cases, even death. This raises questions about whether such practices are morally superior.

In essence, your interpretation of scripture appears flawed, your understanding of history distorted, and your defense of cruelty troubling. This deviates from genuine Christianity and instead resembles a cult, manipulating Bible verses to rationalize the destruction of families.

Well said Sir. The more Christianity is understood, the better the society becomes. Many interpreters of Jewish scriptures have presented God as a wicked God. I always wondered, why would Jesus condemn some laws attributed to Moses? It was always referred to as the,' Law of Moses ', not Law of God. The only original laws God gave directly was etched in stone tablets. No curses , no killings, just a set of moral rules , believed to have been written by God Himself.
Mohammed came, advanced the brutality in the Laws of Moses. Took it to horrific extreme. He claimed that Allah sent prophets to all tribes. People rejected their messages. It was now his own assignment to kill everyone on behalf of Allah. Allah will still judge the victims of execution of Mohammed and Mohammedan religious philosophy in hell.

The funny thing is that all these antihuman laws are always coming from people with sense of unique, better, only 'worshippers' of whatever they believe in.

Now United Nations is advocating for peace and peaceful coexistent among humanity. They campaign for peace, human rights, racial discrimination in any where possible, their voices are loud. Most proponents of these do not believe in anything.
The religious bigots are more ready to shed blood, supported slavery, victimize people of other religious leanings, discriminate, witch-hunt, persecute, people that don't see things with their spectacles.

Now it seems the organizations that always arbitrate in religious beheadings, stonings, shinning, emotional arsenal fashioned against human beings are more righteous than the gods these people represent and tout to ' infidels'

You gave a good piece brother.
cc: Maximumside

MightySparrow:
You gave a good piece brother.
cc: Maximumside

Choose one of two.

Christians will shun whoever becomes an apostate among them. Romans 16:17; 1Corinthans 5:5; 2John 10 -11

Muslims will behead whoever becomes an apostate among them.

Which would you choose?🙂

I'm

MaxInDHouse:
Choose one of two.

Christians will shun whoever becomes an apostate among them. Romans 16:17; 1Corinthans 5:5; 2John 10 -11

Muslims will behead whoever becomes an apostate among them.

Which would you choose?🙂

None. I will choose chasing one lost sheep till it is restored.

MightySparrow:
I'm
None. I will choose chasing one lost sheep till it is restored.

What is the meaning of LOST SHEEP?🙂

MaxInDHouse:
Prophets before Jesus did not abandon their homes to start gathering followers and no prophet before him said only his followers are true worshipers of God.


There is a difference between righteous and holy there were many righteous Judaists who became Christians in other to be holy so if Mary never become one of Jesus' followers she is doomed and her righteousness will be in vain!


They are civil servants and God has not given the kingdom to Israel so whoever is working under the Roman empire is not evil rather such a person should be respected like Shadrach Meshak and Abednego who were working under the Babylonian King.


Highlighted shows you've not been reading my posts instead you're just arguing aimlessly.
I told you that we must first speak with the wrongdoer several times in a one on one conversation and also take two believers to him and finally the elders of the church will intervene before we take the bold step to SHUN him if he refuses to accept his guilt. Read Matthew 18:15-17 before arguing further.


There is no relationship with an apostate once you become an apostate we shun you completely in fact you are worse than a boko haram to us.


The LOST SHEEP are not unrepentant wrongdoers the metaphor (SHEEP) shows such a person is ever willing to be submissive to instructions from the group just as real sheep don't leave the gathering of others intentionally unless they are lost. You need to understand Christianity before thinking of how to apply what Jesus taught.
So if someone is unrepentant he is not a sheep but a goat! Matthew 25:34-46🙂

What’s being presented as historical correction is actually selective history combined with category confusion.
First, the treatment of tax collectors is being seriously misrepresented. In first-century Judea, tax collectors were not respected civil servants. They were widely despised collaborators with an occupying empire, known for extortion, ritually unclean, and socially ostracized. The Gospels themselves confirm this by consistently pairing tax collectors and sinners as a term of contempt.

That context matters because Jesus deliberately did what religious leaders refused to do. He ate with them, called one as a disciple, stayed in their homes, and was publicly criticized for associating with them. So when Jesus says to treat someone as a tax collector,he is referring to how he treated them in continued engagement aimed at restoration not total social abandonment after 2 meetings then with elders. Are elders necessarily more clean or those who use their positions of power unfairly once opportune?

Reading this as shunning reflects Pharaisaic avoidance, not Jesus’ own example.
Attempts to sanitize tax collectors as respectable figures only make the argument worse. If they were respectable, then treating someone as a tax collector would imply normal social interaction undermining shunning entirely. If they were despised outcasts, then Jesus’ active engagement with them proves that exclusion was never his method. Either way, the shunning interpretation collapses.

The comparison to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego backfires for the same reason. They are honored precisely because they defied authority when it conflicted with conscience. Your system does the opposite. It punishes dissent and enforces compliance. If their example were actually being followed, those who refuse organizational commands on conscience would be protected, not expelled.

Appeals to prophets leaving their homes are false equivalence. Temporary travel for mission is not the same as mandating permanent family shunning. Jesus never taught treating questioning relatives as dead. In fact, even while dying, he ensured his mother’s care and condemned religious loopholes used to escape family obligations. A policy that breaks family bonds mirrors the hypocrisy he rebuked, not the ethic he modeled.

Do you do all you do while ignoring Paul's instruction not to treat them as enemies 2 Thess 3:15? In violation of love your enemies stated in Matthew 5:44 and ignoring provide for relatives of 1 Timothy 5:8. I know you will try to justify your stance again. Continue!

In short, Matthew 18 is being read through the lens of exclusionary religious culture rather than through Jesus’ own behavior. Jesus sought the lost through engagement; this system cuts them off. That isn’t biblical discipline it’s organizational control justified after the fact.

honesttalk21:
What’s being presented as historical correction is actually selective history combined with category confusion.

So you don't accept the discipline Jesus and his disciples choose against apostates in their midst.

Now let's talk about apostates in Islam.

What is the disciplinary action to be taken against a former Muslim who has decided to abandon Islam, goes about telling people that Islam is delusion and always eating pork with alcoholic drinks during your Ramadan?🙂

MaxInDHouse:
So you don't accept the discipline Jesus and his disciples choose against apostates in their midst.

Now let's talk about apostates in Islam.

What is the disciplinary action to be taken against a former Muslim who has decided to abandon Islam, goes about telling people that Islam is delusion and always eating pork with alcoholic drinks during your Ramadan?🙂

Before I continue this engagement truthfully answer, were you once a Muslim?

honesttalk21:
Before I continue this engagement truthfully answer, were you once a Muslim?

YES!

Where is Honesttalk21 o?😟

This is the time to present what Muslims were told to do when a former Muslim abandon Islam, goes about telling people that Islam is delusion and doing what Islam condemns publicly?

Note that what this person chose is not against any human laws but it's just your religion that forbids such things as SIN.

Please tell me what Muslims are to do as DISCIPLINARY ACTION against such a person?🙂

MaxInDHouse:
YES!

Ok. You used to be so in essence you apostate from Islam. Why weren't you beheaded for apostasy?

I've already provided extensive scripture evidence that the way you claim to discipline contradicts Jesus's own acts and instructions without you addressing them.

Your deflection to Islam despite clearly showing you where death is prescribed for apostasy not just changing faith but becoming treasonably and violently confrontational against other Muslims and the community not mere faith change.

Essentially your practice isn't biblical and your deflection to Islam the scholarly agreed of beheading apostates for mere change of faith appears more an intellectual surrender being that you cannot defend or justify your position scripturally.

MaxInDHouse:
Where is Honesttalk21 o?😟

This is the time to present what Muslims were told to do when a former Muslim abandon Islam, goes about telling people that Islam is delusion and doing what Islam condemns publicly?

Note that what this person chose is not against any human laws but it's just your religion that forbids such things as SIN.

Please tell me what Muslims are to do as DISCIPLINARY ACTION against such a person?🙂

I should abandon dhikr and salat to respond to you?

I

MaxInDHouse:
What is the meaning of LOST SHEEP?🙂

Luke.15.4 - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke.15.5 - And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luke.15.6 - And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luke.15.7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Lost sheep is clearly explained here. A member in the fold swept away by whatever.

In my own church, we are.taught to pray for their restoration even if they have joined other religion. We still hope for their return and reach out in love.

honesttalk21:
Ok. You used to be so in essence you apostate from Islam. Why weren't you beheaded for apostasy?

Because i was a soldier and feared by all those surrounding me and we live in the place where religious tolerance is uphold and most importantly i was silent about Islam i just speak about my new faith. Have you noticed that i don't go about bashing my former religion it's like the religion remains in my past and gone for good.
Of course in many places apostates in Islam are beheaded if you really want to be HONEST!🙂

honesttalk21:
I've already provided extensive scripture evidence that the way you claim to discipline contradicts Jesus's own acts and instructions without you addressing them.

I quoted Jesus and how his disciples applied what he taught them so you can't change what is written in the Bible because you feel disciplinary action should not be taken in other religions when yours are beheading people.

honesttalk21:
Your deflection to Islam despite clearly showing you where death is prescribed for apostasy not just changing faith but becoming treasonably and violently confrontational against other Muslims and the community not mere faith change.

Now you are being dishonest for real because those running away from your people aren't in anyway violent o!😂

honesttalk21:
Essentially your practice isn't biblical and your deflection to Islam the scholarly agreed of beheading apostates for mere change of faith appears more an intellectual surrender being that you cannot defend or justify your position scripturally.

Tell this to others not me.

Please answer the question:

What's the disciplinary action to be taken against UNREPENTANT WRONGDOERS in Islam.🙂

Sheep are domestic animals that always follow orders and submissive to those taking the lead among them.
So when talking of a LOST SHEEP it's the domestic that got lost and seeking help to return back to the fold Jesus is talking about.

In this sense a JUDAIST, BOKO HARAM, HINDU, BUDDHIST, TRADITIONALIST may be a LOST SHEEP belonging to our God.

So how do we recognize a SHEEP?

Such ones are always submissive to the religion they belong and ever ready to do whatever those taking the lead asked them to do no matter how funny it is.

That shows they are willing to OBEY and not rebellious.

So you are wrong Sir Jesus talked about two categories of people the SHEEP and the GOATS. While the sheep are ever ready to obey instructions the goats are like Satan choosing whatever pleases them or standing alone away from their fellow worshipers.

Not all worshipers are SHEEP o that is why Jesus talked about SEPARATING them otherwise Jesus won't loose any worshiper you're not loving than Jesus o!😀

MightySparrow:
I
Luke.15.4 - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke.15.5 - And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luke.15.6 - And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luke.15.7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Lost sheep is clearly explained here. A member in the fold swept away by whatever.

In my own church, we are.taught to pray for their restoration even if they have joined other religion. We still hope for their return and reach out in love.

MaxInDHouse:
Because i was a soldier and feared by all those surrounding me and we live in the place where religious tolerance is uphold and most importantly i was silent about Islam i just speak about my new faith. Have you noticed that i don't go about bashing my former religion it's like the religion remains in my past and gone for good.
Of course in many places apostates in Islam are beheaded if you really want to be HONEST!🙂


I quoted Jesus and how his disciples applied what he taught them so you can't change what is written in the Bible because you feel disciplinary action should not be taken in other religions when yours are beheading people.



Now you are being dishonest for real because those running away from your people aren't in anyway violent o!😂


Tell this to others not me.

Please answer the question:

What's the disciplinary action to be taken against UNREPENTANT WRONGDOERS in Islam.🙂

👏👏👏

You’ve actually proven my point. You left Islam, started openly practicing Christianity or JW, and nobody harmed you. That shows most Muslims don’t follow what you say they do. But you still defend shunning by pointing to extreme actions most Muslims don’t agree with.

Your survival as an ex-Muslim who left their faith actually weakens your argument.

You still haven’t answered the questions about the Bible. Bringing up Islam for the umpteenth time just shows you can’t defend shunning using scripture. Jesus ate with outcasts (Matthew 9:10), Paul said not to treat people as enemies (2 Thessalonians 3:15), and Jesus made sure his family was cared for while he was dying (John 19:26-27).

Answer these questions with Scripture, or admit your approach goes against how Christ acted.

If you bring up but Islam again, it means you don’t have a biblical defense. I’m not here to defend Islamic law I’m showing that what you do goes against the Jesus you say you follow.

Your way of discipline is harsher on former members than how Jesus treated known sinners. That isn’t biblical. It’s about control, and you can’t back it up with scripture, which is why you keep changing the subject.

MaxInDHouse:
Sheep are domestic animals that always follow orders and submissive to those taking the lead among them.
So when talking of a LOST SHEEP it's the domestic that got lost and seeking help to return back to the fold Jesus is talking about.

In this sense a JUDAIST, BOKO HARAM, HINDU, BUDDHIST, TRADITIONALIST may be a LOST SHEEP belonging to our God.

So how do we recognize a SHEEP?

Such ones are always submissive to the religion they belong and ever ready to do whatever those taking the lead asked them to do no matter how funny it is.

That shows they are willing to OBEY and not rebellious.

So you are wrong Sir Jesus talked about two categories of people the SHEEP and the GOATS. While the sheep are ever ready to obey instructions the goats are like Satan choosing whatever pleases them or standing alone away from their fellow worshipers.

Not all worshipers are SHEEP o that is why Jesus talked about SEPARATING them otherwise Jesus won't loose any worshiper you're not loving than Jesus o!😀

1Pet.2.25 - For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
1Pet.5.4 - And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Is Jesus called goatherd here?

You are claiming what Jesus said is good yet you are denying the application of his disciples who believe, trusted, wrote about him and preached what he taught but you don't want to agree that the same Jesus said he will kill all rebellious people. Luke 19:27
So how can he kill them if there won't be any disciplinary action before destroying them? Matthew 18:15-17

Continue deceiving yourself.

So if you choose to shy away from your own religion you are welcome in true Christianity but note that their is discipline among us o we don't behead apostates instead we shun them as in all members of the Christian family globally!🙂

honesttalk21:
👏👏👏

You’ve actually proven my point. You left Islam, started openly practicing Christianity or JW, and nobody harmed you. That shows most Muslims don’t follow what you say they do. But you still defend shunning by pointing to extreme actions most Muslims don’t agree with.

Your survival as an ex-Muslim who left their faith actually weakens your argument.

You still haven’t answered the questions about the Bible. Bringing up Islam for the umpteenth time just shows you can’t defend shunning using scripture. Jesus ate with outcasts (Matthew 9:10), Paul said not to treat people as enemies (2 Thessalonians 3:15), and Jesus made sure his family was cared for while he was dying (John 19:26-27).

Answer these questions with Scripture, or admit your approach goes against how Christ acted.

If you bring up but Islam again, it means you don’t have a biblical defense. I’m not here to defend Islamic law I’m showing that what you do goes against the Jesus you say you follow.

Your way of discipline is harsher on former members than how Jesus treated known sinners. That isn’t biblical. It’s about control, and you can’t back it up with scripture, which is why you keep changing the subject.

MaxInDHouse:
You are claiming what Jesus said is good yet you are denying the application of his disciples who believe, trusted, wrote about him and preached what he taught but you don't want to agree that the same Jesus said he will kill all rebellious people. Luke 19:27
So how can he kill them if there won't be any disciplinary action before destroying them? Matthew 18:15-17

Continue deceiving yourself.

So if you choose to shy away from your own religion you are welcome in true Christianity but note that their is discipline among us o we don't behead apostates instead we shun them as in all members of the Christian family globally!🙂

Luke 19:27 actually goes against your point instead of supporting it. This passage is a story about judgment, not a rule for followers to follow. Thinking that God’s final judgment means we should cut off family members now is like saying, since God punishes murderers, we should execute them ourselves today. Jesus spent time with outcasts and took care of his mother. Paul even told us not to treat certain people as enemies (2 Thessalonians 3:15). No apostle ever told anyone to completely cut off their family like that. Only strict, controlling groups do this, and most Christian churches consider it unbiblical.

MightySparrow:
1Pet.2.25 - For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
1Pet.5.4 - And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Is Jesus called goatherd here?

Of course there are GOATS among those following him that's why he said there'll be a time to SEPARATE the SHEEP from the GOATS! Matthew 25:34-46

So the GOATS are those who will never be submissive to Christ's representatives so they must be SHUNNED just as Jews do treat tax collectors!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
Of course there are GOATS among those following him that's why he said there'll be a time to SEPARATE the SHEEP from the GOATS! Matthew 25:34-46

So the GOATS are those who will never be submissive to Christ's representatives so they must be SHUNNED just as Jews do treat tax collectors!🙂

Who are these Christ's representatives?

MightySparrow:
Who are these Christ's representatives?

That's your own research to make Jesus said "it's by observing their FRUIT (followers) they can be recognized" {Matthew 7:16-18} Paul said we must be OBEDIENT to them that is if we are truly SHEEP {Hebrews 13:7; 17} after all everyone knows how submissive this domestic pet is!
So if you care go and make your own personal research because without them there is no salvation since they are Christ's brothers that we must assist in their divinely given task! Matthew 25:34-46🙂

MaxInDHouse:
That's your own research to make Jesus said "it's by observing their FRUIT (followers) they can be recognized" {Matthew 7:16-18} Paul said we must be OBEDIENT to them that is if we are truly SHEEP {Hebrews 13:7; 17} after all everyone knows how submissive this domestic pet is!
So if you care go and make your own personal research because without them there is no salvation since they are Christ's brothers that we must assist in their divinely given task! Matthew 25:34-46🙂

No deal.

Let your representative be shinning me.

MightySparrow:
No deal.
Let your representative be shinning me.

At least shunning and beheading those unrepentant wrongdoers is the same thing going by your own perspective.
That's a good take home.
Thanks for your contribution!🙂

Will Jesus brutally destroy unrepentant sinners? Luke 19:27

Does he view apostate Jews as his fellow worshipers of the same God? John 8:44

Your hideout regarding family is useless because we are not talking about families here rather we are talking about faith and those who turns their back on their faith.
So just as you are running away from talking about what Muhammad told you to do against apostates in Islam you can't speak for Christianity since you are not accepting it therefore stop hiding behind Christianity when you refuse to accept it over your Islam.
Meanwhile apostates whether they are related to us by blood doesn't apply once they turn their back on the faith we are told to shun them! Matthew 18:15-17
Note that families who aren't Christians are not apostates so they are exempted from the punishment, we must maintain the cordial relationship we have with such ones but if they are Christians and turn against the Christian faith that is when what Jesus said applies! 🙂

honesttalk21:
Luke 19:27 actually goes against your point instead of supporting it. This passage is a story about judgment, not a rule for followers to follow. Thinking that God’s final judgment means we should cut off family members now is like saying, since God punishes murderers, we should execute them ourselves today. Jesus spent time with outcasts and took care of his mother. Paul even told us not to treat certain people as enemies (2 Thessalonians 3:15). No apostle ever told anyone to completely cut off their family like that. Only strict, controlling groups do this, and most Christian churches consider it unbiblical.

MaxInDHouse:
Will Jesus brutally destroy unrepentant sinners? Luke 19:27

Does he view apostate Jews as his fellow worshipers of the same God? John 8:44

Your hideout regarding family is useless because we are not talking about families here rather we are talking about faith and those who turns their back on their faith.
So just as you are running away from talking about what Muhammad told you to do against apostates in Islam you can't speak for Christianity since you are not accepting it therefore stop hiding behind Christianity when you refuse to accept it over your Islam.
Meanwhile apostates whether they are related to us by blood doesn't apply once they turn their back on the faith we are told to shun them! Matthew 18:15-17
Note that families who aren't Christians are not apostates so they are exempted from the punishment, we must maintain the cordial relationship we have with such ones but if they are Christians and turn against the Christian faith that is when what Jesus said applies! 🙂

Is God's final judgment not different from human authority? Read again to be certain you don't misunderstand how Jesus acted himself.

Luke 19:27 talks about the judgment at the end of time. Isn't this so? It's not telling believers how to act now. Just because God will judge at the end, it doesn't mean Christians have the right to socially punish people today just like God's judgment on murderers doesn't give anyone the right to carry out private executions.

John 8:44 is a strong warning, not a rule to follow. Jesus criticized hostile leaders but kept talking to them, teaching them, and inviting them to change. He didn't erase them or cut them out of existence.

Your idea of faith, not family doesn't add up. You excuse unbelieving family members but punish believing ones who leave meaning leaving the faith is worse than never believing at all. The Bible never sets up a category like that.

Matthew 18:15–17 still goes against your point. When it says to treat them like a Gentile or tax collector, it means to treat them like Jesus did with ongoing contact, conversation, and a desire to bring them back. Why do you need to read this again and again from me. Read and think deeply yourself from the Bible. Jesus even shared meals with people like that; but you choose to avoid them.

The apostles clearly speak against your approach unless you are deriving different meaning.

2 Thessalonians 3:15 says don’t treat them as enemies.

1 Corinthians 5:9–11 says we should keep regular contact with outsiders.

2 Corinthians 2:5–8 shows discipline should include comfort and renewed love.

Completely cutting someone out makes it impossible to follow these instructions or is it remote or inducted from a distance?

Bringing up Islam doesn’t change anything. Even if Islam were wrong, it doesn't make your way of reading the Bible right.

The bottom line is you're not following biblical discipline. You're just enforcing your own punishment by confusing God's judgment with human control. Jesus looked for the lost; you erase them. That’s not what Christianity is about.

honesttalk21:
Is God's final judgment not different from human authority?

Is Islamic punishment authorized in the Quran God's or human's judgement.🙂

https://www.nairaland.com/7296267/converting-islam-christianity-story-islamic

The above is a thread about how Muslims are treating ex members!🙂