₦airaland Forum

lawani:
Muslims place Mohammed above everyone including God. You have to go through Mohammed to know God's mind. Is it a small thing to be the last prophet? God can't even have a new opinion except through Mohammed. That is huge. You chant Mohammed's name five times a day saying he is the best of mankind. Christians don't worship Jesus that much

Concepts like virgin birth, ascension etc were only spread by Christians during Mohammed's time and to believe them you would be a Christian back then

Yes Christianity was originally an errant sect of Judaism that was persecuted by Jews. Islam too is a a sect of Christianity but was never persecuted by Christians until it became big

Many other Christian sects just like Islam were and are still persecuted by other Christians. They deny key Christian concepts. Islam has therefore not done anything new that other Christian sects have not done before and after it

Everything said here is wrong. Muslims don't worship Muhammad peace of Allah be upon him; they pray to God alone. Sending blessings for the Prophet isn't the same as worshiping him, just like respecting prophets doesn't mean turning them into gods. The fact that Muhammad pbuh was the last messenger is about humans, not God while the revelations ended, God continues. Islam rejects key Christian beliefs like the Trinity and Jesus being divine, so it isn't a branch of Christianity any more than Christianity is just a form of Judaism. Sharing some important figures doesn't mean sharing the same beliefs, and history of persecution doesn't prove which religion is true.

You see how you have proved the fact that Islam didn't branch off from Christianity as you make no further false claim of it being an errant sect of Christianity.

honesttalk21:
Everything said here is wrong. Muslims don't worship Muhammad peace of Allah be upon him; they pray to God alone. Sending blessings for the Prophet isn't the same as worshiping him, just like respecting prophets doesn't mean turning them into gods. The fact that Muhammad pbuh was the last messenger is about humans, not God while the revelations ended, God continues. Islam rejects key Christian beliefs like the Trinity and Jesus being divine, so it isn't a branch of Christianity any more than Christianity is just a form of Judaism. Sharing some important figures doesn't mean sharing the same beliefs, and history of persecution doesn't prove which religion is true.

You see how you have proved the fact that Islam didn't branch off from Christianity as you make no further false claim of it being an errant sect of Christianity.

Then who are the idols or gods then? Orisas in Yoruba are our ancestors and we Revere them. You castigate us as idol worshippers while you do the same 100 times with Mohammed. Mohammed to Muslims is something no other human being can become as last prophet. That is more than an idol. Anybody can be an orisa in Yoruba culture so far you contribute to civilization. It is open to all but nobody can aspire to be like Mohammed. Which is worse? Mohammed is an idol. I hope you agree. A big idol.

If you revere Jesus and believe in his virgin birth, resurrection etc then you are a Christian. Islam is no different from JW, Mormon church and etc. Their founders were converted just like Mohammed. Who convinced Mohammed? Definitely not Jews. It was Christians. He then added his own stuff, made himself the last prophet and etc just like Mormon church, JW and etc all have founders or last Prophets.

Protestantism is an errant form of Catholicism. Islam is an errant form of Christianity. Christianity was an errant form of Judaism. This is an academic conclusion

Would you agree that Ogun, Osun, Obatala and etc are not gods? Will you say reverencing them is not idolatry? All we do that you fight us over is reverence them

lawani:
Then who are the idols or gods then? Orisas in Yoruba are our ancestors and we Revere them. You castigate us as idol worshippers while you do the same 100 times with Mohammed. Mohammed to Muslims is something no other human being can become as last prophet. That is more than an idol. Anybody can be an orisa in Yoruba culture so far you contribute to civilization. It is open to all but nobody can aspire to be like Mohammed. Which is worse? Mohammed is an idol. I hope you agree. A big idol.

If you revere Jesus and believe in his virgin birth, resurrection etc then you are a Christian. Islam is no different from JW, Mormon church and etc. Their founders were converted just like Mohammed. Who convinced Mohammed? Definitely not Jews. It was Christians. He then added his own stuff, made himself the last prophet and etc just like Mormon church, JW and etc all have founders or last Prophets.

Protestantism is an errant form of Catholicism. Islam is an errant form of Christianity. Christianity was an errant form of Judaism. This is an academic conclusion

Would you agree that Ogun, Osun, Obatala and etc are not gods? Will you say reverencing them is not idolatry? All we do that you fight us over is reverence them

Respecting someone does not mean you worship them. When referring to the dead and saying may they rest in peace is not considered worshipping them or is it?
Idolatry means praying to, making sacrifices for, or depending on someone or something as if they were divine. Muslims do none of these things with Muhammad pbuh; all worship goes to God alone. Calling Muhammad pbuh an idol doesn’t hold up because he has no divine powers, no prayers are directed to him, and worshiping him is clearly forbidden.

Orishas are called upon, asked for help, and spiritually relied on. That kind of devotion is worship, even if it’s described as honoring ancestors. Islam rejects using any middlemen in religion and Christianity views Jesus as divine. Islam makes it clear that Muhammad pbuh is not divine.

Islam is not a branch of Christianity. It rejects key Christian ideas. Having some of the same figures doesn’t mean the religions are the same. The truth about these figures is retained.

honesttalk21:
➜Respecting someone does not mean you worship them. When referring to the dead and saying may they rest in peace is not considered worshipping them or is it?
Idolatry means praying to, making sacrifices for, or depending on someone or something as if they were divine. Muslims do none of these things with Muhammad pbuh; all worship goes to God alone. Calling Muhammad pbuh an idol doesn’t hold up because he has no divine powers, no prayers are directed to him, and worshiping him is clearly forbidden.

Praying 5 times every day of your life to someone who died 1400 years ago is not respect. It is worship! 🥱🥱🥱

...The worshiper will arise from the prostration to return to the standing position and say, "God is the greatest," completing one full rakah (cycle of prayer).
When the worshiper reaches the end of the second cycle of prayer, and they are sitting on their knees, they will perform the tashahud, or the following steps.
All the compliments, prayers and pure words are for God.
Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and the mercy of God and His blessings.
Peace be upon us, and on the righteous slaves of God.
I bear witness that none has the right to be worshiped except God, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.
If this is the final rakah (cycle) in the prayer then the worshiper will add this part:
O God, send prayers upon Muhammad and upon the family (or followers) of Muhammad, just as You sent prayers upon Ibrahim and the family (or followers) of Ibrahim.
Verily, You are full of Praise and Majesty.
O God, bless Muhammad and the family (or followers) of Muhammad as You blessed Ibrahim and the family (or followers) of Ibraaheem.
Verily, You are full of Praise and Majesty.

Giving compulsive reference to the name of a man whose name you believe you have to say in a particular way or risk losing the right to Islamic paradise after death, is not respect, but worship. 🥱🥱

Praying rest in peace to someone who died 1400 years before you were born is not respect but worship. Look up the dictionary meaning of the word to realize what has been right in front of your face since you first began memorizing your quran. 🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
Praying 5 times every day of your life to someone who died 1400 years ago is not respect. It is worship! 🥱🥱🥱
Giving compulsive reference to the name of a man whose name you believe you have to say in a particular way or risk losing the right to Islamic paradise after death, is not respect, but worship. 🥱🥱

Praying rest in peace to someone who died 1400 years before you were born is not respect but worship. Look up the dictionary meaning of the word to realize what has been right in front of your face since you first began memorizing your quran. 🥱🥱

Oops indeed you know you are wrong. All worship is to Allah who alone is worthy of worship and able to do all things.

Don't we make honorary statements requesting blessings on other prophets? I agree we make more for the one through whom the finalization of revelation to mankind came.

Tell me you don't know how dynamic the dictionary you refer me to is with changing and additional words.

Kobojunkie:
1. 5 Times a day, you say your Muslim prayers; you literally pray to Mohammed, who is dead in his grave somewhere. And it never occurred to you that, because you have to do this and literally live your life to mirror his in most places, you worship him? Come on!
You literally direct those words in red to Mohammed himself, even as you continue to pretend you only reverence Allah in the rest of the prayer. And the fact that you have to mention Mohammed's name literally so many times already shows the man has a divine role to play in your belief there. Your prayer literally portrays the fact that Allah cannot forgive you of any sin if you do not first make supplication to a dead man, and that does not ring bells in your head regarding the divinity of this man, who was called Mohammed in your lives? How can anyone who prays those mechanical prayers 5 times a day not get that much?

2. Adam had no parent; any human after Adam can also have no parent, and there is nothing special about this. Right? Was Adam also raised, by passing judgment entirely to be with Allah? Was Adam also raised as a witness/judge against all those who came after him?

By this reasoning, Christianity seems to lose its legitimacy. Judaism worships YHWH, and Christianity claims to worship the same God yet they are distinct religions because Jews don’t accept Christian beliefs. If same God imply same religion holds true, then Christianity shouldn’t even exist.

Where you derive Muslims worship Muhammad pbuh from you disregard the prayer clearly states none has the right to be worshiped except God at the beginning,while also asking God to bless Muhammad pbuh. This is about asking God to show favor, not about worshiping Muhammad. It’s similar to how Catholics say Hail Mary is veneration, not worship. It’s a basic distinction that needs to be made.

You agree Adam had no parent and say Jesus is not special? Inadvertently suggesting that the virgin birth is insignificant. If being created without parents means something is unremarkable, then Jesus's birth doesn’t prove anything. The Quran’s perspective is that miraculous creation showcases divine power, not the divinity of the created being. Otherwise, Adam would be equated with God.

You’re applying your standards inconsistently undermining your own religious claims while criticizing others. That’s not a solid argument; it’s just inconsistency masquerading as critique.

honesttalk21:
➜Oops indeed you know you are wrong. All worship is to Allah who alone is worthy of worship and able to do all things.
➜ Don't we make honorary statements requesting blessings on other prophets? I agree we make more for the one through whom the finalization of revelation to mankind came.
➜ Tell me you don't know how dynamic the dictionary you refer me to is with changing and additional words.

1. Saying one thing and doing something else is what anything with a mind has come to literally associate with religion and politics, by the way. You claim you only worship Allah, but your actions — your prayers and words — literally reveal the opposite.

2. Nowhere in either the Torah or the Injeel were honorary statements associated with any of the other prophets. Only kings and rulers of lands got such mentions, and even then, never to the extent that Mohammedians give to Mohammed. 🥱🥱

Jesus Christ of Israel is the only other man whose disciples(not Christianity, mind you) pray in his name for forgiveness of sins, and they do so every time they think to pray to YHWH. That is worship. By the way, according to the Gospels, Jesus Christ of Israel raised himself from the dead, hung out for about 40 days with his disciples before eventually ascending to the heavens where he remains to this day. So, he ain't dead. 🥱🥱

3. A word can have multiple meanings, and yes, new words are added to the dictionary each day, but there is nothing dynamic about the dictionary in the way you insist. The word worship has meant the same for thousands of years... it meant the same back in the 1st century when the disciples of Jesus Christ began worshipping Jesus Christ of Israel(long before Mohammed showed up on the radar), and it means the same even to this day. 🥱🥱

Let's quit trying to bullsheet our way out of applying common sense in this, shall we? Compulsively giving reverence to the name of a dead man—Mohammed— for fear of being damned to hell, praying 5 times a day to him to avoid having your sins being held against you, indicates worship. Plain and simple! 🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. Saying one thing and doing something else is what anything with a man has come to literally associate with religion and politics, really. You claim you only worship Allah, but your actions — your prayers — literally reveal the opposite.

2. Nowhere in either the Torah or the Injeel were honorary statements associated with any of the other prophets. Only kings and rulers of lands got such mentions, and even then, never to the extent that Mohammedians give to Mohammed. 🥱🥱

Jesus Christ of Israel is the only other man whose disciples(not Christianity, mind you) pray in his name for forgiveness of sins, and they do so every time they think to pray to YHWH. That is worship. By the way, according to the Gospels, Jesus Christ of Israel raised himself from the dead, hung out for about 40 days with his disciples before eventually ascending to the heavens where he remains to this day. So, he ain't dead. 🥱🥱

3. A word can have multiple meanings, and yes, new words are added to the dictionary each day, but there is nothing dynamic about the dictionary in the way you insist. The word worship has meant the same for thousands of years... it meant the same back in the 1st century when the disciples of Jesus Christ began worshipping Jesus Christ of Israel(long before Mohammed showed up on the radar), and it means the same even to this day. 🥱🥱

Let's quit trying to bullsheet our way out of applying common sense in this, shall we? Compulsively giving reverence to the name of a dead man—Mohammed— for fear of being damned to hell, praying 5 times a day to him to avoid having your sins being held against you, indicates worship. Plain and simple! 🥱🥱

Though you tend not to practice any religion your vie undermines Christianity while attacking Islam and comes of as just bias.

Actions reveal worship so by your reasoning, Christians are essentially worshiping Paul. There are churches named after him, and his letters are treated like scripture. They claim to honor him while actually worshiping God. Muslims make the same claim about Muhammad pbuh.

You claim criptures don't honor prophets like Islam does but Deuteronomy 34:10 states, no prophet like Moses. Jewish prayers often call upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Saying worship always meant the same thing is incorrect. You see in Genesis 42:6, Joseph's brothers bow down (shachah) the same term used for worshiping God. David bowed to Saul (1 Sam 24:. In English, judges are addressed as your worship.The term has always encompassed both ultimate devotion (to God) and respectful honor (to humans).

Christians fear disobeying the Bible to steer clear of hell, is that worshiping a book? No, it’s about following divine guidance. The same goes for Muslims and their reverence for Muhammad.

honesttalk21:
➜ By this reasoning, Christianity seems to lose its legitimacy. Judaism worships YHWH, and Christianity claims to worship the same God yet they are distinct religions because Jews don’t accept Christian beliefs. If same God imply same religion holds true, then Christianity shouldn’t even exist.
➜ Where you derive Muslims worship Muhammad pbuh from you disregard the prayer clearly states none has the right to be worshiped except God at the beginning,while also asking God to bless Muhammad pbuh. This is about asking God to show favor, not about worshiping Muhammad. It’s similar to how Catholics say Hail Mary is veneration, not worship. It’s a basic distinction that needs to be made.
➜ You agree Adam had no parent and say Jesus is not special?
➜ Inadvertently suggesting that the virgin birth is insignificant. If being created without parents means something is unremarkable, then Jesus's birth doesn’t prove anything. The Quran’s perspective is that miraculous creation showcases divine power, not the divinity of the created being. Otherwise, Adam would be equated with God.
➜ You’re applying your standards inconsistently undermining your own religious claims while criticizing others. That’s not a solid argument; it’s just inconsistency masquerading as critique.

1. For the umpteenth time, Judaism is a religion that pretends to have only Israelites as followers(the people of the chosen bloodline) and worships YHWH, the God of Israel. Christianity, on the other hand, claims it is a religion for those who are not of the chosen bloodline, pretenders who claim to worship the same YHWH who said He is God of Israel alone. 🥱

2. Mohammedians pretend Mohammed is to them what Jesus Christ of Israel is to His followers, except, of course, for the part that Mohammed in fact died 1400 years ago. It's worship.🥱🥱

3. I don't agree that Adam had no parents. In the Injeel, since YHWH created Adam and created him in the image of YHWH(he was created a righteous man), Adam is referred to as a son of God. 🥱🥱

4. Wrong! I was simply trying to go off of claims you had made in your attempt to diminish the significance of the virgin birth there. According to the Quran, Jesus was born a pure boy, meaning his birth, which happened to be a virgin birth at that, was of great significance. Even the Quran's claim that Jesus never tasted death and was instead raised by Allah to himself without bypassing judgment, and also to oversee judgment over his followers on the day of resurrection, is significant, as no human has ever had such honor. You claiming that it was all not of great significance and that humans can have no fathers is what I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around. 🥱🥱

5. I don't have any religion; I simply parse the facts as they are contained in each of the books here.

Kobojunkie:
1. For the umpteenth time, Judaism is a religion that pretends to have only Israelites as followers(the people of the chosen bloodline) and worships YHWH, the God of Israel. Christianity, on the other hand, claims it is a religion for those who are not of the chosen bloodline, pretenders who claim to worship the same YHWH who said He is God of Israel alone. 🥱

2. Mohammedians pretend Mohammed is to them what Jesus Christ of Israel is to His followers, except, of course, for the part that Mohammed in fact died 1400 years ago. It's worship.🥱🥱

3. I don't agree that Adam had no parents. In the Injeel, since YHWH created Adam and created him in the image of YHWH(he was created a righteous man), Adam is referred to as a son of God. 🥱🥱

4. Wrong! I was simply trying to go off of claims you had made in your attempt to diminish the significance of the virgin birth there. According to the Quran, Jesus was born a pure boy, meaning his birth, which happened to be a virgin birth at that, was of great significance. Even the Quran's claim that Jesus never tasted death and was instead raised by Allah to himself without bypassing judgment, and also to oversee judgment over his followers on the day of resurrection, is significant, as no human has ever had such honor. You claiming that it was all not of great significance and that humans can have no fathers is what I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around. 🥱🥱

5. I don't have any religion; I simply parse the facts as they are contained in each of the books here.

How can you say Judaism by the Jews and Christianity are different because Jews reject Christian beliefs, yet you refuse to see Islam as different from Christianity for the same reason? If claiming to worship the same God means religions are the same, then by your logic, Christianity is just a mistaken form of Judaism regardless of whether you see it as a religions or not.

You also say Muslims worship Muhammad pbuh like Christians worship Jesus, but you ignore the fact that Christians see Jesus as God, while Muslims firmly reject Muhammad being divine. One group prays to and through their figure as God in human form, the other says he was just a messenger. These things are not even close to the same.

Your point about Adam having God as a parent actually weakens your argument. If being created by God equals being His child, then everyone is God's child, and the idea of a virgin birth loses its special meaning. You are unintentionally arguing against what you are trying to prove.

Jesus's virgin birth and rise to heaven are definitely important in Islamic beliefs, but being important doesn’t mean being divine. Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven without dying, but no one says they are God. Moses talked directly to God but stayed human. Miracles show God's power acting through prophets, not that the prophets are God themselves.

You confirm you don’t have a religion but keep defending Christian views and criticizing Islam. That is not being objective. It shows you have a belief while pretending to be neutral. Your arguments reveal the bias you say you don’t have.

honesttalk21:
Respecting someone does not mean you worship them. When referring to the dead and saying may they rest in peace is not considered worshipping them or is it?
Idolatry means praying to, making sacrifices for, or depending on someone or something as if they were divine. Muslims do none of these things with Muhammad pbuh; all worship goes to God alone. Calling Muhammad pbuh an idol doesn’t hold up because he has no divine powers, no prayers are directed to him, and worshiping him is clearly forbidden.

Orishas are called upon, asked for help, and spiritually relied on. That kind of devotion is worship, even if it’s described as honoring ancestors. Islam rejects using any middlemen in religion and Christianity views Jesus as divine. Islam makes it clear that Muhammad pbuh is not divine.

Islam is not a branch of Christianity. It rejects key Christian ideas. Having some of the same figures doesn’t mean the religions are the same. The truth about these figures is retained.

Idolatry can be in many forms. Would you say attacking and killing people for insulting Mohammed is not idolizing Mohammed?. When you place anybody on a superhuman pedestal, that is quintessential idolatry. Any excessive reverence for a human being especially a dead one is classified as worship.
Mohammed is a middle man. He is the only one through whom God speaks and God can't even change his opinion anymore unless he sees Mohammed. Mohammed is a middle man to God for Muslims. There is no middle man like him in any other spiritual practice.

Islam rejecting key Christian ideas does not mean it is not a branch of Christianity. It accepts the core and that is enough. Jews don't accept that core and they are not Christians. There are branches of Islam that differ in what they believe fundamentally yet are still called Muslims.

I don't have religion. I believe in God like my ancestors. I detest both Christians and Muslims. To me it is not civilized to fight over God, hate people over God, try to convert people or think God is burning people for unbelief. I don't see the founders of religion as civilized people. They are barbarians to me

honesttalk21:
➜Though you tend not to practice any religion your vie undermines Christianity while attacking Islam and comes of as just bias.
➜ Actions reveal worship so by your reasoning, Christians are essentially worshiping Paul. There are churches named after him, and his letters are treated like scripture. They claim to honor him while actually worshiping God. Muslims make the same claim about Muhammad pbuh.
➜ You claim criptures don't honor prophets like Islam does but Deuteronomy 34:10 states, no prophet like Moses. Jewish prayers often call upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
➜ Saying worship always meant the same thing is incorrect. You see in Genesis 42:6, Joseph's brothers bow down (shachah) the same term used for worshiping God. David bowed to Saul (1 Sam 24:. In English, judges are addressed as your worship. The term has always encompassed both ultimate devotion (to God) and respectful honor (to humans).
➜ Christians fear disobeying the Bible to steer clear of hell, is that worshiping a book? No, it’s about following divine guidance. The same goes for Muslims and their reverence for Muhammad.

1. I abhor religion in what it does to the human mind. They are all the same to me; useless brainwashing! 🥱

2. (I had not read this carefully earlier.) Yes, Christians elevate the words of Paul above those of Jesus Christ of Israel, and yes, they also name their churches after Paul. However, I have never personally witnessed any Christian
⚉ praying to Paul(the dead man) or in the name of Paul for forgiveness of sins.
⚉ suggest that the name of Paul is above any other name out there on earth,
⚉ revere the name of Paul, or suggest that YHWH cannot be contacted except in the name of Paul.
⚉ claim that heaven is closed to them until after they have adequately appeased Paul

So, let's not get distracted here. All 3 of the above are some of what I have seen and known Mohammedians to do using the name of Mohammed(not Paul, of course), though. 🥱🥱

3. In the Quran, Mohammed warns against quoting verses out of context, so why would you think it would make sense to quote from the Torah and subject what is written to a meaning that has absolutely nothing to do with what is in fact stated?

9 Moses had put his hands on Joshua and appointed him to be the new leader. Then Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom. So the Israelites began to obey Joshua, and they did what the Lord had commanded Moses.
10 Israel never had another prophet like Moses: The Lord knew Moses face to face.
11 The Lord sent Moses to do powerful miracles in the land of Egypt. Pharaoh, all his officers, and all the people in Egypt saw those miracles.
12 No other prophet ever did as many powerful and amazing things as Moses did for the Israelites to see. - Deuteronomy 34 vs 10 -12

What aspect of what is presented above gives you the notion that Moses was worshipped in the land?

As for the Amidah prayer recited by Jews three times daily, "Blessed are You, Lord our God and God of our forefathers; God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob", I don't believe it to be direct worship of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And here is why. God of Abraham is not Abraham but YHWH...

24. The Lord spoke to him that night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham. Don’t be afraid. I am with you, and I will bless you. I will make your family great. I will do this because of my servant Abraham.” - Genesis 26 vs 24

God of Isaac is not Isaac but YHWH...

13. And then Jacob saw the Lord standing by the ladder. He said, “I am the Lord, the God of your grandfather Abraham. I am the God of Isaac. I will give you the land that you are lying on now. I will give this land to you and to your children. - Genesis 28 vs 13

And God of Jacob is not Jacob but, again, YHWH....

15 And God said, “Tell the Israelites that you were sent by Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. This will always be my name. It is how I want the people to remember me from now on. - Exodus 3 vs15

Those statements you say the Jews use when praying are found spoken by YHWH through Moses to them.

Now, of course, Judaism is a religion I am also vehemently against; YHWH never gave His people a religion. What he gave them was a country and a Constitutional Law to live and rule over themselves in the land. The religion of Judaism... that is a whole 'nother shitshow that is not of YHWH.

4. I literally said that there are different meanings to the word Worship and they have all remained the same throughout the millennia. I used the example of the worship of Jesus Christ of Israel by His very own disciples(all of them Israelites) to focus on the particular meaning of Worship we are going for here. If that is what you wish to work with, then let's go with that. Sigh!

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Yes, the examples of Joseph and Saul in the Torah are OK ideas of worship. These men were kings over the people they each ruled over, and their subjects were tasked with obeying their every order and rules to them. What is clear is that in both cases, particularly the case of Saul, not all of his subjects respected him. Even David, who bowed down to the King, did so out of obligation and not respect for the King. So, his worship was not a form of respect, as David famously disagreed with Saul and his methods, but bowed to him regardless. 🥱

In Joseph's case, not all those who bowed to him as ruler revered him. It is no secret that many held a grudge against him. This is explained by the fact that not long after his death, it seems his name was literally wiped off the records, as detailed in the book of Exodus.🥱

So, to argue that worship is another word for respect is sort of moot; e no enter at all.

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Now, back to the example which I gave earlier.... the relationship between Jesus Christ of Israel and His band of followers. His disciples revered and worshipped Him— this is beyond bowing down to a king because you are obligated to do so. (I am not talking here of bowing down or doing as he commands alone, but literally doing as he commands even when the King or President of the nation they physically live in commands otherwise.) They lived their very lives by His Word. That is worship that is of a divine kind and not the mere worship that is given to a king or a president.

Now, Mohammedians believe their entrance into paradise depends on Mohammed accepting their prayers, and so they pray to him 5 times a day and revere his name. That is worship that compares to that which is given to Jesus Christ of Israel in the Injeel by his disciples. 🥱🥱

5. Mohammedians are definitely like the Christians in that aspect, too. The worship of a book is common to both religions, even though most don't even live according to what is in the book they carry around with them. 🥱🥱

honesttalk21:
➜How can you say Judaism by the Jews and Christianity are different because Jews reject Christian beliefs, yet you refuse to see Islam as different from Christianity for the same reason? If claiming to worship the same God means religions are the same, then by your logic, Christianity is just a mistaken form of Judaism regardless of whether you see it as a religions or not.
➜ You also say Muslims worship Muhammad pbuh like Christians worship Jesus, but you ignore the fact that Christians see Jesus as God, while Muslims firmly reject Muhammad being divine. One group prays to and through their figure as God in human form, the other says he was just a messenger. These things are not even close to the same.
➜ Your point about Adam having God as a parent actually weakens your argument. If being created by God equals being His child, then everyone is God's child, and the idea of a virgin birth loses its special meaning. You are unintentionally arguing against what you are trying to prove.
➜ Jesus's virgin birth and rise to heaven are definitely important in Islamic beliefs, but being important doesn’t mean being divine. Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven without dying, but no one says they are God. Moses talked directly to God but stayed human. Miracles show God's power acting through prophets, not that the prophets are God themselves.
➜ You confirm you don’t have a religion but keep defending Christian views and criticizing Islam. That is not being objective. It shows you have a belief while pretending to be neutral. Your arguments reveal the bias you say you don’t have.

1. No need to go around in circles at this point about the clear distinctions here. 🥱🥱

2. Is it me, or are you simply trying to argue endlessly in circles? I already pointed out the similarities between the two practices. So, is arguing in circles a tactic or something? 🥱🥱🥱

3. This seems more like you keep trying to push your private delusions on my person. I never said everyone on this planet was created by YHWH. You did all that by yourself. 🥱🥱

According to the Torah, the only humans who were ever created by YHWH were Adam and Eve; Eve happened to be cloned from Adam, so technically, only Adam was created from nothing in the image of YHWH, making Adam a son of God. (In the Torah and the Injeel, sons of God are individuals who had been judged righteous by YHWH.) All other humans, apart from Adam, had to be born from the womb of a woman, and this after Adam had sinned against YHWH. This is unlike Adam.

I know the Quran takes a different spin on the story, suggesting that Adam had his sins forgiven him/purged; however, only Jesus was born into this world pure. I am not sure how that works. But then, the Quran be Quran-ing with these stories it tells. 🥱🥱

4. Neither the Torah nor the Injeel suggests that Enoch was taken to heaven. Additionally, the claim that Elijah was taken into the literal heaven is debatable. In the Injeel, Jesus Christ of Israel, revealed that He alone is the one who brings a Law to the people from Heaven itself.

12 I have told you about things here on earth, but you do not believe me. So I’m sure you will not believe me if I tell you about heavenly things!
13 The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the one who came down from heaven—the Son of Man. - John 3 v 12 - 13

Moses made clear to the Israelites that heaven had nothing to do with the Law, as it was a Law that was designed for them to keep here on earth in the land of Canaan— not across the seas or in Heaven.

11 “This command that I give you today is not too hard for you. It is not a secret hidden in some faraway land.
12 This command is not in heaven, so that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and bring it to us, so that we can hear and do it?’
13 This command is not on the other side of the sea, so that you should say, ‘Who will go across the sea for us and bring it to us, so that we can hear it and do it?’
14 No, the word is very near to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart. So you can obey it. - Deuteronomy 30 vs 11 - 14

Moses never promised heaven to the Israelites. Elijah did not go into Heaven — he was taken into the clouds(heavens for those of old). Heaven, aka the Kingdom of Go,d did not exist to men until after the time of Jesus Christ of Israel.

5. Playing victim isn't going to do you any good here. Everything I have said here is supposedly inspired, preserved, and authorized by your Allah in the Quran, so spare us the wailings! 🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. I abhor religion in what it does to the human mind. They are all the same to me; useless brainwashing! 🥱

2. (I had not read this carefully earlier.) Yes, Christians elevate the words of Paul above those of Jesus Christ of Israel, and yes, they also name their churches after Paul. However, I have never personally witnessed any Christian
⚉ praying to Paul(the dead man) or in the name of Paul for forgiveness of sins.
⚉ suggest that the name of Paul is above any other name out there on earth,
⚉ revere the name of Paul, or suggest that YHWH cannot be contacted except in the name of Paul.
⚉ claim that heaven is closed to them until after they have adequately appeased Paul

So, let's not get distracted here. All 3 of the above are some of what I have seen and known Mohammedians to do using the name of Mohammed(not Paul, of course), though. 🥱🥱

3. In the Quran, Mohammed warns against quoting verses out of context, so why would you think it would make sense to quote from the Torah and subject what is written to a meaning that has absolutely nothing to do with what is in fact stated?
What aspect of what is presented above gives you the notion that Moses was worshipped in the land?

As for the Amidah prayer recited by Jews three times daily, "Blessed are You, Lord our God and God of our forefathers; God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob", I don't believe it to be direct worship of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And here is why. God of Abraham is not Abraham but YHWH...

God of Isaac is not Isaac but YHWH...

And God of Jacob is not Jacob but, again, YHWH....
Those statements you say the Jews use when praying are found spoken by YHWH through Moses to them.

Now, of course, Judaism is a religion I am also vehemently against; YHWH never gave His people a religion. What he gave them was a country and a Constitutional Law to live and rule over themselves in the land. The religion of Judaism... that is a whole 'nother shitshow that is not of YHWH.

4. I literally said that there are different meanings to the word Worship and they have all remained the same throughout the millennia. I used the example of the worship of Jesus Christ of Israel by His very own disciples(all of them Israelites) to focus on the particular meaning of Worship we are going for here. If that is what you wish to work with, then let's go with that. Sigh!

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Yes, the examples of Joseph and Saul in the Torah are OK ideas of worship. These men were kings over the people they each ruled over, and their subjects were tasked with obeying their every order and rules to them. What is clear is that in both cases, particularly the case of Saul, not all of his subjects respected him. Even David, who bowed down to the King, did so out of obligation and not respect for the King. So, his worship was not a form of respect, as David famously disagreed with Saul and his methods, but bowed to him regardless. 🥱

In Joseph's case, not all those who bowed to him as ruler revered him. It is no secret that many held a grudge against him. This is explained by the fact that not long after his death, it seems his name was literally wiped off the records, as detailed in the book of Exodus.🥱

So, to argue that worship is another word for respect is sort of moot; e no enter at all.

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Now, back to the example which I gave earlier.... the relationship between Jesus Christ of Israel and His band of followers. His disciples revered and worshipped Him— this is beyond bowing down to a king because you are obligated to do so. (I am not talking here of bowing down or doing as he commands alone, but literally doing as he commands even when the King or President of the nation they physically live in commands otherwise.) They lived their very lives by His Word. That is worship that is of a divine kind and not the mere worship that is given to a king or a president.

Now, Mohammedians believe their entrance into paradise depends on Mohammed accepting their prayers, and so they pray to him 5 times a day and revere his name. That is worship that compares to that which is given to Jesus Christ of Israel in the Injeel by his disciples. 🥱🥱

5. Mohammedians are definitely like the Christians in that aspect, too. The worship of a book is common to both religions, even though most don't even live according to what is in the book they carry around with them. 🥱🥱

Your claim of not being religious doesn’t hold up when you keep defending biblical beliefs while criticizing Islam.

Saying all religions are useless and then arguing that YHWH gave constitutional law but not religion is a double standard. You have your own religious views you’re just presenting them as if they’re neutral facts.

Your point about how Christians treat Paul versus how Muslims treat Muhammad pbuh is wrong. Muslims don’t pray to Muhammad pbuh or say that getting into heaven depends on his approval. Islamic prayers clearly say none has the right to be worshiped except God, while they ask God to bless Muhammad pbuh. This means they’re asking God to favor him, not praying to Muhammad pbuh for salvation. You’ve created a false picture of Islamic practice to back up your criticism.

Your take on Jewish prayer actually supports my argument. When Jews say God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, they’re honoring these prophets as respected messengers to God. It's the same kind of respect you call worship when Muslims do it. So if naming prophets in prayer counts as worship, then Judaism fits your definition too.

Your argument about the meaning of worship contradicts itself. You admit worship has different meanings, but then you only want to use the divine worship meaning for Muhammad pbuh, while accepting respect-based meanings for biblical figures. That’s picking and choosing to suit your argument. Even when David bowed to Saul despite their conflict, it was still called worship in Hebrew, so it’s not less worship by your own standard.

Following Muhammad pbuh’s example isn’t worship any more than Christians following biblical teachings is worshiping a book. Both see their examples as messages from God through humans. Your selective use of the word “worship” shows bias rather than a fair look at things.

Kobojunkie:
1. No need to go around in circles at this point about the clear distinctions here. 🥱🥱

2. Is it me, or are you simply trying to argue endlessly in circles? I already pointed out the similarities between the two practices. So, is arguing in circles a tactic or something? 🥱🥱🥱

3. This seems more like you keep trying to push your private delusions on my person. I never said everyone on this planet was created by YHWH. You did all that by yourself. 🥱🥱

According to the Torah, the only humans who were ever created by YHWH were Adam and Eve; Eve happened to be cloned from Adam, so technically, only Adam was created from nothing in the image of YHWH, making Adam a son of God. (In the Torah and the Injeel, sons of God are individuals who had been judged righteous by YHWH.) All other humans, apart from Adam, had to be born from the womb of a woman, and this after Adam had sinned against YHWH. This is unlike Adam.

I know the Quran takes a different spin on the story, suggesting that Adam had his sins forgiven him/purged; however, only Jesus was born into this world pure. I am not sure how that works. But then, the Quran be Quran-ing with these stories it tells. 🥱🥱

4. Neither the Torah nor the Injeel suggests that Enoch was taken to heaven. Additionally, the claim that Elijah was taken into the literal heaven is debatable. In the Injeel, Jesus Christ of Israel, revealed that He alone is the one who brings a Law to the people from Heaven itself.
Moses made clear to the Israelites that heaven had nothing to do with the Law, as it was a Law that was designed for them to keep here on earth in the land of Canaan— not across the seas or in Heaven.
Moses never promised heaven to the Israelites. Elijah did not go into Heaven — he was taken into the clouds(heavens for those of old). Heaven, aka the Kingdom of Go,d did not exist to men until after the time of Jesus Christ of Israel.

5. Playing victim isn't going to do you any good here. Everything I have said here is supposedly inspired, preserved, and authorized by your Allah in the Quran, so spare us the wailings! 🥱🥱

Accusing me of circular reasoning while repeating Muslims worship Muhammad without dealing with the counterarguments is actually projecting. I’ve clearly explained that Islamic prayer rejects worshiping anyone except God, yet you’ve just restated your claim without engaging with the evidence. I’m not the one going in circles here; it’s you who’s refusing to accept facts that don’t fit your view.

Your ideas about Adam create serious problems. If Adam was directly created and considered God’s son, and Jesus was born pure, making him unique, then you’ve unintentionally argued for Jesus’s divinity. The position you’re attacking in Islam actually admits his miraculous nature but without calling him divine. In your view, “son of God” either means nothing special if it just means “righteous” or it’s only about Jesus, which supports his unique status. Either way, your argument doesn’t clearly separate Christianity’s claims from Islam’s recognition of Jesus’s special role.

Your take that Enoch and Elijah weren’t taken to heaven goes against clear Bible statements. Genesis 5:24 says Enoch walked with God, and he was not, because God took him which is understood as being taken to heaven. Second Kings 2:11 tells how Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. It doesn’t say clouds but uses the Hebrew word shamayim, which is the same word for God’s dwelling place. You’re reinterpreting straightforward passages just to fit your beliefs.

When you say I’m playing the victim while dismissing Islamic theology as Quran be Quran-ing, it shows you’re not taking this seriously. You’ve moved from saying there’s no religion involved to defending certain biblical interpretations that many scholars would question. That’s not neutral; it’s pushing a particular theological view while misrepresenting Islamic beliefs you haven’t accurately portrayed.

honesttalk21:
➜ Your claim of not being religious doesn’t hold up when you keep defending biblical beliefs while criticizing Islam.
➜ Saying all religions are useless and then arguing that YHWH gave constitutional law but not religion is a double standard. You have your own religious views you’re just presenting them as if they’re neutral facts.
➜ Your point about how Christians treat Paul versus how Muslims treat Muhammad pbuh is wrong. Muslims don’t pray to Muhammad pbuh or say that getting into heaven depends on his approval. Islamic prayers clearly say none has the right to be worshiped except God, while they ask God to bless Muhammad pbuh. This means they’re asking God to favor him, not praying to Muhammad pbuh for salvation. You’ve created a false picture of Islamic practice to back up your criticism.

1. Defending ? Is it me, or do you not know the meaning of the application of that term?

2. Double Standard? Do you even know the correct meaning and application of those terms you use? 🥱🥱

3. Look! Denying facts only further reveals your religious brainwashing. There is absolutely no question that Mohammedians pray 5 times a day to mohammed as that is substantiated by their 5 payers all consisting of statements directed at the person(or corpse) of Mohammed. 🥱🥱🥱

lawani:
Idolatry can be in many forms. Would you say attacking and killing people for insulting Mohammed is not idolizing Mohammed?. When you place anybody on a superhuman pedestal, that is quintessential idolatry. Any excessive reverence for a human being especially a dead one is classified as worship.
Mohammed is a middle man. He is the only one through whom God speaks and God can't even change his opinion anymore unless he sees Mohammed. Mohammed is a middle man to God for Muslims. There is no middle man like him in any other spiritual practice.

Islam rejecting key Christian ideas does not mean it is not a branch of Christianity. It accepts the core and that is enough. Jews don't accept that core and they are not Christians. There are branches of Islam that differ in what they believe fundamentally yet are still called Muslims.

I don't have religion. I believe in God like my ancestors. I detest both Christians and Muslims. To me it is not civilized to fight over God, hate people over God, try to convert people or think God is burning people for unbelief. I don't see the founders of religion as civilized people. They are barbarians to me

Your definition of idolatry is so broad that it turns every memorial or national honor into an act of worship. The violence used to defend honor isn’t something unique to Islam it’s a human issue seen in many cultures, and it doesn’t prove that someone is being worshiped.

Having Muhammad pbuh as a middleman isn’t new even though he isn't. Christianity has Jesus as an eternal mediator, Catholics believe saints can intercede, and Judaism had the Levitical priests. Most religions that reveal divine messages have people who act as go-betweens. Even the traditional or religion of your ancestors go through intermediaries.

Islam can’t be considered a branch of Christianity when it rejects the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the crucifixion, and the resurrection these are the main parts of Christianity. What core of it do you say it upholds? Sharing some elements doesn’t make religions branches if their core beliefs don’t line up.

Saying no religion while still believing in God and following ancestral practices is actually a religious stance itself. You’re not outside of religion discussions you’re involved, just coming to different conclusions

Kobojunkie:
1. Defending ? Is it me, or do you not know the meaning of the application of that term?

2. Double Standard? Do you even know the correct meaning and application of those terms you use? 🥱🥱

3. Look! Denying facts only further reveals your religious brainwashing. There is absolutely no question that Mohammedians pray 5 times a day to mohammed as that is substantiated by their 5 payers all consisting of statements directed at the person(or corpse) of Mohammed. 🥱🥱🥱

Indeed. This isn't ping pong you know. Which facts have you presented? Other people's nairaland entries or website pictures with errors I pointed to you. Sincerely address the interpretation of what you wrote and check how it applies to your statements.

Muslim prayer is to Allah. You should do better to prove that is otherwise as no Muslim prays expecting response or reward from Muhammad pbuh.

honesttalk21:
➜Your take that Enoch and Elijah weren’t taken to heaven goes against clear Bible statements. Genesis 5:24 says Enoch walked with God, and he was not, because God took him which is understood as being taken to heaven.
➜ Second Kings 2:11 tells how Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. It doesn’t say clouds but uses the Hebrew word shamayim, which is the same word for God’s dwelling place. You’re reinterpreting straightforward passages just to fit your beliefs.
➜ When you say I’m playing the victim while dismissing Islamic theology as Quran be Quran-ing, it shows you’re not taking this seriously. You’ve moved from saying there’s no religion involved to defending certain biblical interpretations that many scholars would question. That’s not neutral; it’s pushing a particular theological view while misrepresenting Islamic beliefs you haven’t accurately portrayed.

1. YHWH also supposedly took Moses, but it is not written that Moses went to Heaven. Enoch was taken by God does not imply that Enoch went to Heaven. You would need to take a religious leap to come to that conclusion, and that is what Religion does. Hence, the reason why I keep posting what the book actually says instead of the many fables your head has been filled with via religious sources.🥱

2. Stop regurgitating religious nonsense is what I will tell you again!🥱🥱

Shamayin refers to the heavens/skies in the Old Testament. Again, there was no access for men into the Heavens in the Old Testament; The righteous men of old who died are said to sleep in their graves to this day. Even with the New Covenant, access to the Kingdom of God(Heaven and Hell) would only be granted by Jesus Christ of Israel after He has returned and judged all who are Bornagain. 🥱🥱

honesttalk21:
➜Indeed. This isn't ping pong you know. Which facts have you presented? Other people's nairaland entries or website pictures with errors I pointed to you. Sincerely address the interpretation of what you wrote and check how it applies to your statements.
Muslim prayer is to Allah. You should do better to prove that is otherwise as no Muslim prays expecting response or reward from Muhammad pbuh.

The thing about dogma is that you literally have to deny even the facts of what is stated in your Quran to push most of them. All I have posted so far is from the books which your Allah claims were inspired, preserved, and authorized by Him. The Quran literally says that all things regarding the Jews and the Christians must be judged according to what is written in the Torah and the Injeel, which he claims he gave to the Jews and to the Israelites. Yet, notice how you have worked really hard to discredit what is literally written in those books thus far? It says a lot about your beliefs. 🥱🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
The thing about dogma is that you literally have to deny even the facts of what is stated in your Quran to push most of them. All I have posted so far is from the books which your Allah claims were inspired, preserved, and authorized by Him. The Quran literally says that all things regarding the Jews and the Christians must be judged according to what is written in the Torah and the Injeel, which he claims he gave to the Jews and to the Israelites. Yet, notice how you have worked really hard to discredit what is literally written in those books thus far? It says a lot about your beliefs. 🥱🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. YHWH also supposedly took Moses, but it is not written that Moses went to Heaven. Enoch was taken by God does not imply that Enoch went to Heaven. You would need to take a religious leap to come to that conclusion, and that is what Religion does. Hence, the reason why I keep posting what the book actually says instead of the many fables your head has been filled with via religious sources.🥱

2. Stop regurgitating religious nonsense is what I will tell you again!🥱🥱

Shamayin refers to the heavens/skies in the Old Testament. Again, there was no access for men into the Heavens in the Old Testament; The righteous men of old who died are said to sleep in their graves to this day. Even with the New Covenant, access to the Kingdom of God(Heaven and Hell) would only be granted by Jesus Christ of Israel after He has returned and judged all who are Bornagain. 🥱🥱

On Enoch and Heaven clearly Genesis 5:24 says Enoch was not, for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 explains this means Enoch was taken to avoid death. The Bible makes it clear he didn't die like others. So, your reinterpretation goes against what the text plainly says and is the real religious leap.

About the word shamayim your own image actually supports this point that it means both the physical sky and God's dwelling. The definition shows it covers the visible arch as well as the higher space where the stars and planets move.

In 2 Kings 2:11, shamayim is used when God's chariot takes Elijah up in a divine event. The meaning depends on the context. When the word appears with a divine appearance, it refers to God's home, not just the weather or sky. The same word is used for God's dwelling throughout the Bible, like in Psalm 11:4 and Isaiah 66:1.

You say regarding Islamic scholarship that I'm regurgitating religious nonsense while defending biblical views that many scholars actually challenge? ? ?
You claim to follow what the book actually says, but you ignore clear parts of the text, like Enoch being taken without dying and Elijah's divine ascent, in order to fit your own ideas. Pick a side and be consistent.

Calling others dogmatic while holding strict theological views you can't support with scripture isn't being neutral. It's showing an unrecognized bias. The Quran accepts previous scriptures but points out corruption in their understanding not that a fair reading of those texts opposes Islamic teachings, but that interpretations often do.

honesttalk21:
Your definition of idolatry is so broad that it turns every memorial or national honor into an act of worship. The violence used to defend honor isn’t something unique to Islam it’s a human issue seen in many cultures, and it doesn’t prove that someone is being worshiped.

Having Muhammad pbuh as a middleman isn’t new even though he isn't. Christianity has Jesus as an eternal mediator, Catholics believe saints can intercede, and Judaism had the Levitical priests. Most religions that reveal divine messages have people who act as go-betweens. Even the traditional or religion of your ancestors go through intermediaries.

Islam can’t be considered a branch of Christianity when it rejects the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the crucifixion, and the resurrection these are the main parts of Christianity. What core of it do you say it upholds? Sharing some elements doesn’t make religions branches if their core beliefs don’t line up.

Saying no religion while still believing in God and following ancestral practices is actually a religious stance itself. You’re not outside of religion discussions you’re involved, just coming to different conclusions

Apart from in Islam, can you give other instances where people were attacked and killed by mobs for insulting someone who died over a thousand years ago? Yes, excessive, memorial or national honor is worship. You can't put someone on such a high pedestal that Mohammed is put by Muslims and say it is not worship. What Catholics do with saints is worship. What the RCCG do with Adeboye is worship.

So belief in the Trinity is now how you determine if someone is Christian? Belief in the Trinity started after the Nice conference. There were many Christian groups before and after the Nice conference that do not believe in the Trinity. There are many Christian groups with diverse beliefs. Therefore Islam is just one of them. If you believe Jesus was a prophet, born of a virgin etc then you were converted by a Christian and are a Christian

You say I have religion? If you rely on common sense you have no religion. You only preach morals and don't attempt to convert anyone. How is that religion? You use methodology to access the spiritual. That is knowhow and not religion

lawani:
Apart from in Islam, can you give other instances where people were attacked and killed by mobs for insulting someone who died over a thousand years ago? Yes, excessive, memorial or national honor is worship. You can't put someone on such a high pedestal that Mohammed is put by Muslims and say it is not worship. What Catholics do with saints is worship. What the RCCG do with Adeboye is worship.

So belief in the Trinity is now how you determine if someone is Christian? Belief in the Trinity started after the Nice conference. There were many Christian groups before and after the Nice conference that do not believe in the Trinity. There are many Christian groups with diverse beliefs. Therefore Islam is just one of them. If you believe Jesus was a prophet, born of a virgin etc then you were converted by a Christian and are a Christian

You say I have religion? If you rely on common sense you have no religion. You only preach morals and don't attempt to convert anyone. How is that religion? You use methodology to access the spiritual. That is knowhow and not religion

Violence over insults to long-dead figures happens in many belief systems. In medieval times, Christians executed people for blasphemy against Jesus, like Michael Servetus (1553) and Giordano Bruno (1600). During the French Revolution, people were killed for disrespecting revolutionary heroes. Communist regimes also killed millions decades to centuries after these ideologists for straying from the ideas of Marx, Lenin, or Mao. Violence tied to honor is a human problem, not something unique to Islam.

Your argument about the Trinity contradicts itself. If groups that don’t believe in the Trinity are still called Christian, then the Trinity can’t be what defines Christianity. But if not the Trinity, then what does? Islam rejects Jesus’ divinity, his death that saves, and his resurrection these are at the heart of Christianity. Just sharing respect for Jesus as a prophet doesn’t make two religions the same any more than Christianity’s use of the Torah makes it Judaism.

Saying common sense means no religion is wrong. Religion involves beliefs about something beyond the physical world, a source of moral authority, and spiritual practices. You say you use spiritual practices and teach morals, which is religion without trying to convert others by the way am I trying to convert you? Confucianism, animism, and indigenous beliefs don’t try to bring others in, but they are still religious systems. You are following a religion even if you don’t call it that.

honesttalk21:
Violence over insults to long-dead figures happens in many belief systems. In medieval times, Christians executed people for blasphemy against Jesus, like Michael Servetus (1553) and Giordano Bruno (1600). During the French Revolution, people were killed for disrespecting revolutionary heroes. Communist regimes also killed millions decades to centuries after these ideologists for straying from the ideas of Marx, Lenin, or Mao. Violence tied to honor is a human problem, not something unique to Islam.

Your argument about the Trinity contradicts itself. If groups that don’t believe in the Trinity are still called Christian, then the Trinity can’t be what defines Christianity. But if not the Trinity, then what does? Islam rejects Jesus’ divinity, his death that saves, and his resurrection these are at the heart of Christianity. Just sharing respect for Jesus as a prophet doesn’t make two religions the same any more than Christianity’s use of the Torah makes it Judaism.

Saying common sense means no religion is wrong. Religion involves beliefs about something beyond the physical world, a source of moral authority, and spiritual practices. You say you use spiritual practices and teach morals, which is religion without trying to convert others by the way am I trying to convert you? Confucianism, animism, and indigenous beliefs don’t try to bring others in, but they are still religious systems. You are following a religion even if you don’t call it that.

They killed people over Jesus but Christians don't argue that Jesus is not worshipped. You can't classify political killings and suppression of insurrection by governments in power with what Muslims do. It is not the same thing.

Trinity did not define Christianity. Jesus was not regarded as divine by all Christian sects until the conference that happened in Nice and even that conference could not have succeeded in harmonizing all of them.
When Mohammed was born. Only Jews and Christians knew about Jesus. Jews did not rate him. Christians revered him. Anybody that revered Jesus during the time of Mohammed was a Christian. There is no doubt he was converted to Christianity. It is not even debatable. Anybody in today's world that believes Mohammed is the last prophet is a Muslim. Belief in the virgin birth, prophethood, resurrection and etc is enough to classify Mohammed as a member of one of the numerous Christian sects that existed in the seventh century.

Before Christianity started, people have always believed in God, practiced divination and etc. They didn't have holy books that must be believed and they don't seek to convert anyone. I don't believe it is right to categorize what they do with what Christians and Muslims now do. Can you in all sincerity say they are the same?

honesttalk21:
➜On Enoch and Heaven clearly Genesis 5:24 says Enoch was not, for God took him.
➜ Hebrews 11:5 explains this means Enoch was taken to avoid death. The Bible makes it clear he didn't die like others. So, your reinterpretation goes against what the text plainly says and is the real religious leap.

Words have multiple meanings to them. For this reason, it is imperative to allow the context determine the meaning of the term, rather than taking it on yourself to decide these things. This applies when reading any and every book out there, including the Torah and the Injeel. Context is always king, no matter what book you are reading; this is why religion holds nothing but lies in the end. 🥱🥱🥱

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1. Enoch was not found — was not— God took him... does not mean the same as Enoch was taken to Heaven by God. The claim that he was taken to heaven was manufactured by religion. 🥱

2. Again, nothing in Hebrews 11 suggests Enoch went to Heaven. (See below.) Indicated instead is that Enoch was translated, and when you look up the meaning of the term, it has nothing to do with Heaven. That he did not die DOES NOT mean the same thing as He was taken to heaven. The only way you can reach that conclusion is by applying an interpretation without evidence — dogma — which religion is never short of. 🥱

lawani:
They killed people over Jesus but Christians don't argue that Jesus is not worshipped. You can't classify political killings and suppression of insurrection by governments in power with what Muslims do. It is not the same thing.

Trinity did not define Christianity. Jesus was not regarded as divine by all Christian sects until the conference that happened in Nice and even that conference could not have succeeded in harmonizing all of them.
When Mohammed was born. Only Jews and Christians knew about Jesus. Jews did not rate him. Christians revered him. Anybody that revered Jesus during the time of Mohammed was a Christian. There is no doubt he was converted to Christianity. It is not even debatable. Anybody in today's world that believes Mohammed is the last prophet is a Muslim. Belief in the virgin birth, prophethood, resurrection and etc is enough to classify Mohammed as a member of one of the numerous Christian sects that existed in the seventh century.

Before Christianity started, people have always believed in God, practiced divination and etc. They didn't have holy books that must be believed and they don't seek to convert anyone. I don't believe it is right to categorize what they do with what Christians and Muslims now do. Can you in all sincerity say they are the same?

When you look from a historical, religious, and logical point of view there are so many problems with your arguments

First, violence over insults to figures from past times is not something unique to Islam. Christians have executed people for insulting Jesus, like Servetus, Bruno, and Aikenhead. During the French Revolution, people were killed for disrespecting important political symbols. Communist regimes murdered millions for not respecting their Marxist icons. Using violence to defend honor is a human behavior across different groups, not just Islam.

Second, showing respect is not the same as worship. Muslims do not pray to Muhammad pbuh, treat him like a god, or believe he has divine powers. Protecting symbols too strictly might be wrong, but it is not worship. If you say it is, then flags, constitutions, or national heroes would also be worshipped, which doesn’t make sense.

Third, rejecting the Trinity does not mean Islam is a branch of Christianity. Christianity is defined by beliefs about who Jesus is and how salvation works. Islam clearly denies Jesus’ divinity, his sacrifice on the cross, and his resurrection, which are the main ideas in Christianity. Even Christians who don’t believe in the Trinity still focus on salvation through Christ, but Islam does not. This shows Islam is outside, not part, of Christianity.

Fourth, sharing religious figures doesn’t mean sharing the same religion. Judaism and Christianity have some prophets in common, but they are different religions. Christianity includes Jewish scripture but is not Judaism. In the same way, Islam honors Jesus as a prophet, but that doesn’t make it Christian.

The common sense does not rule out religion. Religion is about believing in things within and beyond the material world, having moral guidance, and following spiritual practices. Since you accept moral teachings and spiritual practices, that means you are talking about religion, even if you aren’t trying to convert people.

To sum up, you mix up shared history with shared identity, respect with worship, and moral thinking with not being religious. None of these mix-ups hold up to serious thought.

Kobojunkie:
Words have multiple meanings to them. For this reason, it is imperative to allow the context determine the meaning of the term, rather than taking it on yourself to decide these things. This applies when reading any and every book out there, including the Torah and the Injeel. Context is always king, no matter what book you are reading; this is why religion holds nothing but lies in the end. 🥱🥱🥱

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1. Enoch was not found — was not— God took him... does not mean the same as Enoch was taken to Heaven by God. The claim that he was taken to heaven was manufactured by religion. 🥱

2. Again, nothing in Hebrews 11 suggests Enoch went to Heaven. (See below.) Indicated instead is that Enoch was translated, and when you look up the meaning of the term, it has nothing to do with Heaven. That he did not die DOES NOT mean the same thing as He was taken to heaven. The only way you can reach that conclusion is by applying an interpretation without evidence — dogma — which religion is never short of. 🥱

Your principle of context determination doesn't go along with your argument. In Genesis 5, there is a consistent pattern of stating and he died for every patriarch, except for Enoch. This deviation is deliberate. Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 provides the inspired explanation translated so that he should not see death.The term Metatithēmi indicates a change in location. The text clearly states that Enoch did not experience death. If Enoch was taken from earthly life to escape death, it means he was removed from the mortal realm this is the key point. Rejecting this without suggesting another destination isn’t proper interpretation; it’s avoidance. The context strengthens the argument rather than weakens it.

honesttalk21:
When you look from a historical, religious, and logical point of view there are so many problems with your arguments

First, violence over insults to figures from past times is not something unique to Islam. Christians have executed people for insulting Jesus, like Servetus, Bruno, and Aikenhead. During the French Revolution, people were killed for disrespecting important political symbols. Communist regimes murdered millions for not respecting their Marxist icons. Using violence to defend honor is a human behavior across different groups, not just Islam.

Second, showing respect is not the same as worship. Muslims do not pray to Muhammad pbuh, treat him like a god, or believe he has divine powers. Protecting symbols too strictly might be wrong, but it is not worship. If you say it is, then flags, constitutions, or national heroes would also be worshipped, which doesn’t make sense.

Third, rejecting the Trinity does not mean Islam is a branch of Christianity. Christianity is defined by beliefs about who Jesus is and how salvation works. Islam clearly denies Jesus’ divinity, his sacrifice on the cross, and his resurrection, which are the main ideas in Christianity. Even Christians who don’t believe in the Trinity still focus on salvation through Christ, but Islam does not. This shows Islam is outside, not part, of Christianity.

Fourth, sharing religious figures doesn’t mean sharing the same religion. Judaism and Christianity have some prophets in common, but they are different religions. Christianity includes Jewish scripture but is not Judaism. In the same way, Islam honors Jesus as a prophet, but that doesn’t make it Christian.

The common sense does not rule out religion. Religion is about believing in things within and beyond the material world, having moral guidance, and following spiritual practices. Since you accept moral teachings and spiritual practices, that means you are talking about religion, even if you aren’t trying to convert people.

To sum up, you mix up shared history with shared identity, respect with worship, and moral thinking with not being religious. None of these mix-ups hold up to serious thought.

I have pointed out that you can't use killings over Jesus as an example because Christians agree Jesus is worshipped. I also don't know why you insist on using political killings that has nothing to do with the spiritual.
Then if you don't agree Mohammed is worshipped will you agree he is idolized? There is nobody in history more idolized than Mohammed.
Muslims believe Mohammed has divine powers like splitting the moon and etc. You are wrong to say they don't
You were not there in the seventh century to know the kinds of Christian sects that existed and their doctrines. There were various kinds just like today.
Yes The first Christians were Jews. It was at the beginning a kind of reform Judaism that did not fly with the majority of Jews. It is the same way between Christianity and Islam. Islam is reform Christianity, Mormon church is reform Christianity and etc.

The word religion does not matter. Converting people to spiritual paths is a new thing that started with Christianity and that continued with Islam. In the past, it was not done by anybody and there was peace on Earth. That is what I am talking about. All the so called prophets of religion that existed before Islam and Christianity did not convert anybody. They respected the spiritual paths of others. They obviously were not Muslims in that respect but they get labelled wrongly

honesttalk21:
➜About the word shamayim your own image actually supports this point that it means both the physical sky and God's dwelling. The definition shows it covers the visible arch as well as the higher space where the stars and planets move.
➜ In 2 Kings 2:11, shamayim is used when God's chariot takes Elijah up in a divine event.
➜ The meaning depends on the context.
➜ When the word appears with a divine appearance, it refers to God's home, not just the weather or sky.
➜ The same word is used for God's dwelling throughout the Bible, like in Psalm 11:4 and Isaiah 66:1.

1. If it could mean both, then which meaning do you apply, when? That is the issue here, is it not?

2. Elijah was taken by the chariot of Israel, according to Elisha who witnessed the events, not God's Chariot.

3. OK!

4. Wrong! That is the religious notion or way of digesting what is plainly stated.

5. In both Psalm 11 vs 4 and Isaiah 66 vs 1, we are instead told that the heavens are YHWHS throne; Isaiah suggests that His feet rest on the earth— his footstool. To add to it, Psalm 11 vs 4 indicates that YHWH is inside of his holy temple, which was on earth at the time in question. So, is YHWH's dwelling place in the Old really a place beyond this earth or a place that includes this earth?

Another point to note when you read the rest of Isaiah 66 vs 1, see YHWH asks for the place of His rest, the house that was promised Him on this earth — His dwelling place —by the people of Israel.

Imagine a person sitting on a throne with his foot resting on a footstool. Would you conclude that the footstool on which he rests his feet exists in a place outside of the person's immediate space?

In much of the Old Testament, the dwelling place of YHWH included His temple... Psalm 11 vs 4 states this, and Jesus Christ of Israel confirmed this. 🥱🥱🥱

lawani:
I have pointed out that you can't use killings over Jesus as an example because Christians agree Jesus is worshipped. I also don't know why you insist on using political killings that has nothing to do with the spiritual.
Then if you don't agree Mohammed is worshipped will you agree he is idolized? There is nobody in history more idolized than Mohammed.
Muslims believe Mohammed has divine powers like splitting the moon and etc. You are wrong to say they don't
You were not there in the seventh century to know the kinds of Christian sects that existed and their doctrines. There were various kinds just like today.
Yes The first Christians were Jews. It was at the beginning a kind of reform Judaism that did not fly with the majority of Jews. It is the same way between Christianity and Islam. Islam is reform Christianity, Mormon church is reform Christianity and etc.

The word religion does not matter. Converting people to spiritual paths is a new thing that started with Christianity and that continued with Islam. In the past, it was not done by anybody and there was peace on Earth. That is what I am talking about. All the so called prophets of religion that existed before Islam and Christianity did not convert anybody. They respected the spiritual paths of others. They obviously were not Muslims in that respect but they get labelled wrongly

Holding extremely strong to your fallacy despite it faulted repeatedly? It is an unquestionable fact that Christians have committed violence in the name of Jesus which demonstrates that worship can lead to violence, and political murders indicate that people can also kill for secular reasons thus, violence does not uniquely apply to Islam or prove its distinctiveness. Asserting that Muhammad pbuh is the most idolized ever is factually incorrect, as figures like Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna have been revered for centuries; personal bias does not constitute evidence.

The miracles attributed to Muhammad pbuh are granted by God's permission, similar to those of Moses or Elijah. Miracles alone do not imply divinity or worship. In the seventh century, Christianity was not a level playing field. By the 2nd to 4th centuries, the divinity of Christ and his sacrificial death were already central beliefs, and those who denied them were marginalized. Islam did not reform Christianity but rather rejected its foundational beliefs.
The notion of a peaceful world before conversion is historically inaccurate as civilizations like Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, and Israel engaged in violent expansion long before the advent of Christianity or Islam. You are not correcting historical facts; you are altering them to support a thesis that the evidence does not back up. I have long asked you for direct not speculative proof that Muhammad pbuh was first a Christian or such convert before branching off to form Islam. Just do that and end this back and forth over your illusive fantasy.

honesttalk21:
➜Your principle of context determination doesn't go along with your argument. In Genesis 5, there is a consistent pattern of stating and he died for every patriarch, except for Enoch. This deviation is deliberate. Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
➜ Hebrews 11:5 provides the inspired explanation translated so that he should not see death. The term Metatithēmi indicates a change in location. The text clearly states that Enoch did not experience death.
➜ If Enoch was taken from earthly life to escape death, it means he was removed from the mortal realm this is the key point.
➜ Rejecting this without suggesting another destination isn’t proper interpretation; it’s avoidance. The context strengthens the argument rather than weakens it.

1. The supposed absence of a pattern IS NOT permission to inject your personal or religious delusions between those lines. Again, nowhere in that verse is it indicated that Enoch was taken off this planet, absolutely none. 🥱🥱

2. The Greek work translation DOES NOT imply leaving the earth, though. Moving one foot from point A to point B is also a change of location. If you read carefully, it could also be used to indicate a change of order. Sure, the writer in Hebrews claims Enoch did not experience death, but nowhere in that is it implied that Enoch was taken to heaven to be with God. That claim comes wholly from religious dogma. 🥱🥱

3. Wrong! That response of yours, again, is of religious dogma. 🥱🥱

4. I can reject it simply because the passage suggests none of what you claim. I don't have the same religious need you have to inject your personal delusions, which you folks refer to as interpretations — literally made up nonsense— because I don't do religion and all of the bullsheet that comes with it. 🥱🥱

honesttalk21:
Holding extremely strong to your fallacy despite it faulted repeatedly? It is an unquestionable fact that Christians have committed violence in the name of Jesus which demonstrates that worship can lead to violence, and political murders indicate that people can also kill for secular reasons thus, violence does not uniquely apply to Islam or prove its distinctiveness. Asserting that Muhammad pbuh is the most idolized ever is factually incorrect, as figures like Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna have been revered for centuries; personal bias does not constitute evidence.

The miracles attributed to Muhammad pbuh are granted by God's permission, similar to those of Moses or Elijah. Miracles alone do not imply divinity or worship. In the seventh century, Christianity was not a level playing field. By the 2nd to 4th centuries, the divinity of Christ and his sacrificial death were already central beliefs, and those who denied them were marginalized. Islam did not reform Christianity but rather rejected its foundational beliefs.
The notion of a peaceful world before conversion is historically inaccurate as civilizations like Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, and Israel engaged in violent expansion long before the advent of Christianity or Islam. You are not correcting historical facts; you are altering them to support a thesis that the evidence does not back up. I have long asked you for direct not speculative proof that Muhammad pbuh was first a Christian or such convert before branching off to form Islam. Just do that and end this back and forth over your illusive fantasy.

Today there is no set of central beliefs that is common to all Christian sects despite that the world is a global village. How much more in the world of the seventh century?.Despite the agreement at Nice, there would still have been groups that continued to do their thing just as it is today.
A proof that Mohammed was a Christian is that there was a Mohammed a Christian in the Byzantine empire who I have once read about. What this means is that Mohammed is probably a Christian baptismal name that was adopted by the Prophet of Islam. I hope you know that Mohammed was not his original name? The only other Mohammed I have heard of was a Byzantine Christian. I read a quote from him that I can not remember now

If you say Mohammed is not the most idolized person ever, he would still be among the first three but I think considering all the daily rituals involving billions of people that he is associated with, he should be number one


This is a thread I found discussing the origin of the name Mohammed on Quora


https://www.quora.com/Was-there-anyone-named-Mohammed-before-the-prophet-of-Islam

Before conversions started, the only reasons nations fought wars was for territory. We had no reasons to fight or hate each other over God. There was therefore peace in that respect unlike now