₦airaland Forum

tctrills:
But for the above, you already offered the best verse, whatever you sow, you shall reap

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I dont understand how this answers me. Are you now agreeing with me or what?

MaxInDHouse:
Abeg how does the parable of the good Samaritan apply to what we are saying here?

Perhaps you don't know the Samaritans and Jews are all Israelites so they have God's law unlike pagan nations!🙂

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Must I spell it out to you?

The point is this: The parable shows what exactly is needed to enter the kingdom of heaven. Remember that Jesus was asked this question and he replied saying love God and love your neighbor. He was then asked who a neighbor is and he replied with the parable of the good Samaritan. In so doing he showed that that essential love is what is required and not any pagan belief in any blood ritual of murder by torture.

DeepSight:
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This is incoherent and I must upbraid you for writing all too often in a most scattered, unstructured and incomprehensible manner which seems like the musings of a child or child animation.

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Address this to Maxindhouse

There you go lying again for there is no adult who cannot appreciate my words for common when lastma catch you, you are looking for anyone to save you, how much more when you know you shall be sentenced to death. Anyway, it has been said that "people kuu for lack of understanding"

You are misapplying what God's word said!

The Israelites knew that the Christ must die a sacrificial death before they can be redeemed! Isaiah 53:11-12
So when a thief was about to die with Jesus he recalled this prophecy and instantly he realized that Jesus must be the Christ whose sacrificial death will take away the sin of the world because with all his miraculous powers he will not think of escape! Luke 23:42

The love Jesus is talking about there is doing what we will like others to do for us when we need help to our neighbor that law will only guide the Israelites till the Christ comes it will not save them that's why God told their ancestors that a prophet is coming to teach them the way to gain salvation! Deuteronomy 18:18

DeepSight:
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Must I spell it out to you?
The point is this: The parable shows what exactly is needed to enter the kingdom of heaven. Remember that Jesus was asked this question and he replied saying love God and love your neighbor. He was then asked who a neighbor is and he replied with the parable of the good Samaritan. In so doing he showed that that essential love is what is required and not any pagan belief in any blood ritual of murder by torture.

DeepSight:
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I dont understand how this answers me. Are you now agreeing with me or what?

I gree 100% that we reap what we sow and that the price of sin must be paid. But then I add one small detail, Christ paid the price.
This makes repentance possible.
The difference between you and me is that you accept some parts of the scripture and reject others so you are always left with half of the story. I have it in full

DeepSight:
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In my humble view humans die because matter is mutable, transient and not self existent. The body being matter must thus go through the cycles that all matter goes through. Thats all.

Let me just add that I dont believe the body is the human being. The body is like a covering, a dressing which the human wears in the worlds of matter to be able to work therein. Death therefore is little more than removing a covering, like taking off a shirt.

1)What is the Source of the information above in bold?

2)Does Science agree with your statement above in bold?

DeepSight:
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I dont understand how this answers me. Are you now agreeing with me or what?

Here is a simplified summary to explain God's Justice and mercy.
https://youtube.com/shorts/otRbtbRX0Eg?si=OfU_128NrDYxlUeT

This below might set the ball rolling for our next topic
https://youtube.com/shorts/OhAe-3cGKsk?si=2LK3kot9X7Lg4KoL

tctrills:
Here is a simplified summary to explain God's Justice and mercy.
https://youtube.com/shorts/otRbtbRX0Eg?si=OfU_128NrDYxlUeT

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Doesnt work.
No matter how much you try to confuse and convince yourself, an innocent man taking the punishment for the crimes of a guilty man can never signify perfect divine justice. Never.

It is also unbiblical.

Jesus himself made it clear not only in Gethsemane but also when he said it would be better for the person who betrayed him if he was never born.

Also consider verses like -

1 Corinthians 2:8: "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Luke 23:34: "Then said Jesus, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

But of everything Jesus said that showed the crucifixion was wrong, the Parable of the Wicked Tenants is the most poignant.

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants is found in Matthew 21:33–46. Below is the text of the passage (from the ESV translation):

33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country.

34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit.

35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them.

37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’

39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

What do you think the above parable signifies.
Don't just allow confirmation bias to give you a knee jerk reaction. Ponder it deeply with openness of mind and the willingness to change your belief.

tctrills:
This below might set the ball rolling for our next topic
https://youtube.com/shorts/OhAe-3cGKsk?si=2LK3kot9X7Lg4KoL

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I once gave you [b]twenty [/b]clear verses showing clearly that Jesus is NOT God, but you basically ignored them.
I was not surprised because it is standard and normal for people of faith to ignore their own scripture once it is against whatever they already believe. Both Christians and Muslims do this on the regular. I have seen it too often.

DeepSight:
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I once gave you [b]twenty [/b]clear verses showing clearly that Jesus is NOT God, but you basically ignored them.
I was not surprised because it is standard and normal for people of faith to ignore their own scripture once it is against whatever they already believe. Both Christians and Muslims do this on the regular. I have seen it too often.

You seen yo have forgotten, I did not ignore them, I explained them and gave you verses to increase your understanding. By the way no verse in the bible shows that Jesus Christ is not God.

Did the bible call Jesus Christ God? Yes
Did the bible ever say or imply that Jesus Christ is not God? No

But let me start strong, Jesus Christ is clearly the Jehovah of the old testament

So, to decide whether Jesus Christ is God, we would use the Bible for obvious reasons.
Let's begin with Christ telling you that He is God.

John 8:58
Before Abraham was, I am.

Now, many have argued that this means something different in the original Greek text, but because I am not a Greek expert, I used AI to verify. I would advise you to do the same unless you understand the language.

Gemini
In Greek, eimi usually needs a "predicate"—it’s a bridge word (e.g., "I am the door". In this verse, however, it is used absolutely, meaning there is no noun following it.

Syntax: When egō eimi stands alone, the focus shifts from what the person is to the fact that they exist.

Intertextual Link: The Bible's own Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) uses this exact absolute phrase, egō eimi, in Isaiah 43:10 and Exodus 3:14 to translate the Hebrew name for God. By using this specific Greek phrasing, the speaker is using the "language of existence" found in the ancient texts they were debating.

Grok
Grammatical Breakdown (Purely from Koine Greek Usage)

πρὶν ("before" is a temporal adverb/conjunction introducing a subordinate clause that sets a point in past time.
Ἀβραὰμ = Abraham (proper name).
γενέσθαι is the aorist infinitive of γίνομαι (ginomai), which means "to become," "to come into existence," "to be born," or "to happen/arise." The aorist tense here emphasizes the moment or point of coming into being (ingressively: the entry into existence). So "before Abraham came to be / was born / came into existence."
ἐγὼ = emphatic "I" (first-person singular pronoun; the pronoun is explicit here, which can add emphasis in Greek since the verb already indicates person).
εἰμί = first-person singular present indicative of εἰμί (eimi), the verb "to be." In the present tense, it means "I am," "I exist," or "I am [in a state of being]." It is a stative verb describing existence or identity, not an action.

ChatGPt
Key Linguistic Observation

There is a clear contrast in verb forms:

γενέσθαι (genesthai) → past event (Abraham came into existence)
εἰμι (eimi) → present tense (I am)

👉 So the sentence contrasts:

Abraham → came into being (at a point in time)
“I” → am (ongoing existence, not tied to a beginning in this sentence)
🧠 What This Means Purely Linguistically

Without adding theology:

The speaker is placing himself before Abraham in time
But instead of saying “I was” (ἤμην / ēn), the text uses:
👉 “I am” (present tense)

This creates an unusual grammatical effect in Greek:

It breaks normal tense expectations
It suggests a state of existence that is not described as beginning or ending


My summary

If Jesus called Himself God, then we can agree that the correct Christian position is that Jesus Christ is God. Again, we know that His Father is also God, and that's not a problem because even as humans, we expect the son of a human to be human, so why would anyone expect the Son of God and heir of His divine nature not to be God?

tctrills:
You seen yo have forgotten, I did not ignore them, I explained them and gave you verses to increase your understanding.

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I remember very well - you only picked a few verses to give marginal attention to and then said that that should suffice to explain the rest or something like that. 20 solid verses and that was the lazy response you gave, you didnt address them all, only a few, and only marginally.

By the way no verse in the bible shows that Jesus Christ is not God.

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I gave you twenty that showed that explicitly.

But let me start strong, Jesus Christ is clearly the Jehovah of the old testament

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Then he must have multiple personality disorder as the nature of Jesus and his teachings radically differ from those of blood thirsty and violent Yahweh of the Old Testament.

tctrills:
My summary

If Jesus called Himself God, then we can agree that the correct Christian position is that Jesus Christ is God. Again, we know that His Father is also God, and that's not a problem because even as humans, we expect the son of a human to be human, so why would anyone expect the Son of God and heir of His divine nature not to be God?

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This is a very bad analogy as being human refers to our nature not our identity. So the fact that you and I are human does not mean that you are me or I am you. In the context you have used the analogy, at best it would mean that Jesus is also a divine being and not that he is God the Father.

DeepSight:
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This is a very bad analogy as being human refers to our nature not our identity. So the fact that you and I are human does not mean that you are me or I am you. In the context you have used the analogy, at best it would mean that Jesus is also a divine being and not that he is God the Father.

God is not Identity, God has His name.. Yes, Jesus Christ has a Father who has a different Identity from Him but the bible teaches us that they both have the God nature. So God clearly is not a name of a person. Our God has a name.
My point is tha Jesus Christ not His Father is the Jehovah of the old testament according to the bible.

tctrills:
God is not Identity, God has His name.. Yes, Jesus Christ has a Father who has a different Identity from Him but the bible teaches us that they both have the God nature. So God clearly is not a name of a person. Our God has a name.

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You and I both have the human nature too. And we both have names.

My point is tha Jesus Christ not His Father is the Jehovah of the old testament according to the bible.

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Please this is an absolutely incongruous statement maybe you meant to say something else or clarify it.

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You and I both have the human nature too. And we both have names.
Thats the point, Jesus Christ and His Father both have the God nature and still have their different names. Just like you and I both have human nature, too. And we both have names


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Please this is an absolutely incongruous statement maybe you meant to say something else or clarify it.
But you claim to have read the bible 17 times, and you still don't know that the I AM of the Old Testament is Christ? Maybe you should read it one more time

DeepSight:
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I remember very well - you only picked a few verses to give marginal attention to and then said that that should suffice to explain the rest or something like that. 20 solid verses and that was the lazy response you gave, you didnt address them all, only a few, and only marginally.


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I gave you twenty that showed that explicitly.


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Then he must have multiple personality disorder as the nature of Jesus and his teachings radically differ from those of blood thirsty and violent Yahweh of the Old Testament.

None of the 20 shows in any way that Jesus Christ is not God. Anyone could copy and paste verses; that's no big deal.
Let's do this, just present any one of your 20 verses and explain how it disproves the divinity of Christ.

tctrills:
None of the 20 shows in any way that Jesus Christ is not God. Anyone could copy and paste verses; that's no big deal.
Let's do this, just present any one of your 20 verses and explain how it disproves the divinity of Christ.

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I am weary of doing so: even if i bring a verse where Jesus says "I am not God" you will not agree.

DeepSight:
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I am weary of doing so: even if i bring a verse where Jesus says "I am not God" you will not agree.

Of course, if Jesus Christ claims He is not God, we can't force Him to be God. But you read His claim, He is I Am.

tctrills:
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You and I both have the human nature too. And we both have names.
Thats the point, Jesus Christ and His Father both have the God nature and still have their different names. Just like you and I both have human nature, too. And we both have names

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And yet you are not me, are you?

Please this is an absolutely incongruous statement maybe you meant to say something else or clarify it.
But you claim to have read the bible 17 times, and you still don't know that the I AM of the Old Testament is Christ? Maybe you should read it one more time

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My challenge is you saying that Jesus and NOT the father is Jehovah of the Old Testament!
Not the father ? ? ? ?
Oh really?

Confusion!


PS: You keep saying 17 times, but go back and look at exactly what I wrote. I mentioned that I had read it several times before a particular age, I didnt mention the amount of times I have read it.

tctrills:
Of course, if Jesus Christ claims He is not God, we can't force Him to be God. But you read His claim, He is I Am.

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Jesus said it many times that he is not God, and you are just hanging on to a vague "I am" which you know has many different possible interpretations.

DeepSight:
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And yet you are not me, are you?


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My challenge is you saying that Jesus and NOT the father is Jehovah of the Old Testament!
Not the father ? ? ? ?
Oh really?

Yes, I AM (Jesus Christ) is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, not His Father. Let's do one verse, and you will explain.
Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

You see clearly that the Almighty and Jehovah are 2 difrent people. Yes, many times, especially in the Old Testament, the 2 persons/names are used interchangeably but this is the verse that separates the 2

tctrills:
Yes, I AM (Jesus Christ) is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, not His Father. Let's do one verse, and you will explain.
Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

You see clearly that the Almighty and Jehovah are 2 difrent people. Yes, many times, especially in the Old Testament, the 2 persons/names are used interchangeably but this is the verse that separates the 2

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So you are saying that God the father is not the God of the Old Testament?

DeepSight:
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So you are saying that God the father is not the God of the Old Testament?

God the Father is always going to be God. I am saying that the Jehovah of the Old Testament is the same person we know as Jesus Christ in the New Testament. One doesn't have to lose His position for the other to be divine. Let me put it this way: The Father sent Jehovah to the prophets of old. And that is why all the titles of Jehovah in the Old Testament belong to Jesus Christ.
Example: In the Old Testament, we learn that there is no Savior but Jehovah; in the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the only Savior.

tctrills:
God the Father is always going to be God. I am saying that the Jehovah of the Old Testament is the same person we know as Jesus Christ in the New Testament. One doesn't have to lose His position for the other to be divine. Let me put it this way: The Father sent Jehovah to the prophets of old. And that is why all the titles of Jehovah in the Old Testament belong to Jesus Christ.
Example: In the Old Testament, we learn that there is no Savior but Jehovah; in the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the only Savior.

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Your doctrine that the father is NOT Jehovah is alien to Christianity and I am sure almost NO other Christian in the world will agree with you on that.

DeepSight:
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Your doctrine that the father is NOT Jehovah is alien to Christianity and I am sure almost NO other Christian in the world will agree with you on that.

I did not point to the quran, I used the same bible you use. I Am the IAm is in your bible and every other verse I quoted, and I will still quote. I am not here to defend Christianity as that would be impossible, that's defending 100s of different religions, but I am here to look at the bible objectively with you.

tctrills:
I did not point to the quran, I used the same bible you use. I Am the IAm is in your bible and every other verse I quoted, and I will still quote. I am not here to defend Christianity as that would be impossible, that's defending 100s of different religions, but I am here to look at the bible objectively with you.

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I am sure you are the only Christian the world that says that God the Father is not Jehovah of the Old Testament

DeepSight:
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I am sure you are the only Christian the world that says that God the Father is not Jehovah of the Old Testament

Now we are making this personal. But that's not even the point; you clearly don't know everything about Christianity, so calm down with your claims. Catholics, for example, believe Jesus is Jehovah, but not in the same sense as I explained. Again, it's just empty pride to claim to know what every Christian believes.

tctrills:
Now we are making this personal. But that's not even the point; you clearly don't know everything about Christianity, so calm down with your claims. Catholics, for example, believe Jesus is Jehovah, but not in the same sense as I explained. Again, it's just empty pride to claim to know what every Christian believes.

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Yes every Trinitarian believes Jesus is Jehovah but certainly none of them except you will say that Jehovah is not the God of the OT.

I am not making anything personal, I am just pointing out how strange and fringe your view is and the fact that it is not just fringe, it is absurd and weird and no one else would countenance it.

DeepSight:
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Yes every Trinitarian believes Jesus is Jehovah but certainly none of them except you will say that Jehovah is not the God of the OT.

I am not making anything personal, I am just pointing out how strange and fringe your view is and the fact that it is not just fringe, it is absurd and weird and no one else would countenance it.

Are you listening to me? I said that Jehovah (Jesus Christ) is the God of the Old Testament. Do not call my claims absurd because that is what the bible teaches.

tctrills:
Are you listening to me? I said that Jehovah (Jesus Christ) is the God of the Old Testament. Do not call my claims absurd because that is what the bible teaches.

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You added that the father is NOT that God of the old testament.

This even contradicts the trinity doctrine which you claim to believe in.

DeepSight:
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You added that the father is NOT that God of the old testament.

This even contradicts the trinity doctrine which you claim to believe in.

Please can you quote where I said the Father is NOT that God of the Old Testament, because if I did, it was a big mistake and I apologize. The Father has always been God, and so has the Son. All I am saying is that the God known and worshiped as Jehovah in the Old Testament was Jesus Christ, not His Father. His Father is not Jehovah