₦airaland Forum

SIRTee15:
Deepsight trust me I will answer all your questions convincingly. But first let's start with the sacrificial death of Christ as being unjust.

First understand what Christ did for us is self sacrifice. He died so we may live. He gave his life so we may not be destroyed forever. He said so himself.

we have multiple examples of that today.
will u call it unjust if A pregnant woman lose her life so that her baby may live. There are thousand cases of maternal death that were due to fetal morbidity. Yet no one ever said such childbirth is unjust.

There is a popular case of a Nigerian father who died while trying to rescue his daughter who was drowning in the swimming pool. This happened in a spanish resort.
The girl who was the only member of the family who could swim was drowning in the pool when the Father and her brother (both couldn't swim), jumped into the pool to rescue her. Unfortunately the 3 drowned and died.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-family-drowned-costa-del-sol-girl-drowns-in-pool-comfort-diya-115830341.html

Now will u call it unjust that the father and brother sacrificed their lives knowing fully well they couldn't swim to rescue the girl?
will u call such self sacrifice meaningless or unjust?

if u are called that your daughter is drowning in a beach and u can hear her calling your name for help, will u do everything within your means to rescue her or wait for the lifeguard to rescue her?
If u are told your house is on fire and u know fully well your children are at home. will u rush home and find ways to rescue them even if it will cost u your life or u will wait for the firefighter to put out the fire.
If u are told a gunman has held your kids to ransom and u are aware of a secret rescue plan, will u take the risk and rescue your kids even if it will cost u your life or u will wait for the police to sort it out?

A loving Father will do anything to rescue his children from perishing, that's because of the love he has for them.
Jesus Christ who is God in flesh knew he had what it takes to rescue humanity from eternal destruction and he never hesitated to sacrifice his life that humanity may be reedemed.
There's nothing unjust about self sacrifice. It's the ultimate prove of love. Christ giving his Life for us is the ultimate prove of his love for us.

Below are verses that made it clear that Christ mission on earth is self sacrifice.

John 10.18
No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

Matthew 26.28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.”

Matthew 20:28
“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

John 15.13
What greater than this: for a man to lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus predicted his death 3 times during his ministry

Mark 8.31
And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 9
30 They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, 31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”

Mark 10
33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

Throughout his ministry, Jesus reiterated his mission here on earth was to redeem mankind and rescue humanity from their own self destruction. We were dying and there was no escape, we trapped ourselves willfully. Christ knew there was no way out except his own self sacrifice. That is not unjust.

What is unjust is for u to have the power to safe someone from destruction but u deliberately held back for whatever reason, then u watch the person get destroyed. That is not only unjust but evil.

What is unjust is for your kid drowning to cry out for help and u did nothing but stood there watching her lose her life.
What is unjust is for u to refuse being a life saving donor to your own child because u are not willing to take the chance of losing your own life in the process.

God has the power to safe humanity from eternal destruction. He sent his son who has the same existence has himself who willingly self sacrificed his own life that we may be redeemed.

The prayer in the garden of Gethsemane only prove the mortal side of Jesus and that he's willing to give up his own desires to fulfil the will of his Father.
Christ knew if he gave up his life, his Father will bring it back again so he trusted the mission 100% without any doubt.

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I must say this is a thorough and interesting argument and very well put forward, also emotionally compelling. Tctrills, someone has done your homework for you.

While I thank you for this, I must juxtapose what you have written against the justice of God. God, remember, is not just said to be an emotional loving father in the human sense, but also our creator and most importantly in this context, our judge. And God is said to be perfectly just, and divine justice would simply not be perfect if there are escape loops such as one person coming to bear the consequence of another persons sin. It is written in the bible itself that we will reap what we sow, and so it is clear that in terms of divine justice, there can be no escape hatch by bringing one person to bear the consequences for another person.

Another thing you should reflect upon is that such a practice would make God a bad parent in that it would amount to a kind of cheating and therefore fail to instill the required discipline in humans.

Your argument is emotionally compelling but it ends there - it only appeals to the human side of things and does not speak to the matter of justice. Furthermore, it also fails because as an analogy it does not depict your child having committed a crime which deserves punishment, it only depicts him or her in an unfortunate position of distress without any sin and in need of rescue. Such an analogy is incurably bad when we are talking about sin and conseqence.

Finally have u asked yourself why Abraham was willing to kill and sacrifice Isaac when he was supposed to be the child of promise. God told Abraham he will fulfil his eternal covenant he made with Abraham via Isaac, yet God told him to sacrifice the same covenant child.
Why didn't Abraham protest? why didn't Abraham remind God Isaac cannot be killed at a young age since he's meant to be the covenant child.
FYI, Abraham was going to the mountain to kill that child, he wasn't going to hesitate.
SO why was Abraham willing to sacrifice his only covenant child if the child is the one to secure the covenant?

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Tctrills has argued that Abram was willing to do this because he knew Isaac would be resurrected. As an aside one may question the value and sacrifice of Jesus laying down his life since he knew he would be resurrected in a short three days. But I digress.

The point remains that it will forever be barbaric to ask a parent to kill his child. And in this instance what for? To make God happy? Does God drink human blood? What exactly for? What kind of God will make such a barbaric, pagan and contemptible demand? There can NEVER be anything holy or righteous about such a satanic command please.

DeepSight:
+While I thank you for this, I must juxtapose what you have written against the justice of God. God, remember, is not just said to be an emotional loving father in the human sense, but also our creator and most importantly in this context, our judge. And God is said to be perfectly just, and divine justice would simply not be perfect if there are escape loops such as one person coming to bear the consequence of another persons sin. It is written in the bible itself that we will reap what we sow, and so it is clear that in terms of divine justice, there can be no escape hatch by brining one person to bear the consequences for another person. ...

Are you aware that He Who set The Law of an eye for an eye/reap what you sow also made provision for Atonement?

Or have you never heard of the word called atonement?

See its meaning
Oxford Learner's Dictionaries
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
atonement noun - Definition
[uncountable] (formal) the act of showing you are sorry for doing something wrong in the past

Dtruthspeaker:
Are you aware that He Who set The Law of an eye for an eye/reap what you sow also made provision for Atonement?

Or have you never heard of the word called atonement?

See its meaning
Oxford Learner's Dictionaries
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
atonement noun - Definition
[uncountable] (formal) the act of showing you are sorry for doing something wrong in the past

+
And I agree with atonement.
I only say it doesn't have to involve killing someone.

DeepSight:
+
And I agree with atonement.
I only say it doesn't have to involve killing someone.

If you agree with atonement then how would you recommend that a person atone for your many sins of murder? And that is i hope you know that we all kill several times even before that person dies hence why it is said "a coward dies many times" or where people shout "i don die oo" yet they live.

Tctrills has argued that Abram was willing to do this because he knew Isaac would be resurrected. As an aside one may question the value and sacrifice of Jesus laying down his life since he knew he would be resurrected in a short three days. But I digress.
If you would have to tell lies and bear false witness, I wouldn't take you serious anymore.
I actually thought you had some credibility.

Dtruthspeaker:
If you agree with atonement then how would you recommend that a person atone for your many sins of murder? And that is i hope you know that we all kill several times even before that person dies hence why it is said "a coward dies many times" or where people shout "i don die oo" yet they live.

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How do we all kill many times?

Atonement for me is by -

1. Feeling genuine contrition
2. Apologizing and seeking forgiveness
3. Making reparations as much as possible
4. Suffering any pain or loss which symbolically signifies acceptance of punishment

tctrills:
Tctrills has argued that Abram was willing to do this because he knew Isaac would be resurrected. As an aside one may question the value and sacrifice of Jesus laying down his life since he knew he would be resurrected in a short three days. But I digress.
If you would have to tell lies and bear false witness, I wouldn't take you serious anymore.
I actually thought you had some credibility.

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It irritates me the speed with which you constantly accuse me of telling lies. The minute you don't like a statement you issues accusations of lies. It's extremely tiresome and irritating.

Edit: I will try and see if I can find where you said what I claimed.

tctrills:
Tctrills has argued that Abram was willing to do this because he knew Isaac would be resurrected. As an aside one may question the value and sacrifice of Jesus laying down his life since he knew he would be resurrected in a short three days. But I digress.
If you would have to tell lies and bear false witness, I wouldn't take you serious anymore.
I actually thought you had some credibility.

DeepSight:
+
It irritates me the speed with which you constantly accuse me of telling lies. The minute you don't like a statement you issues accusations of lies. It's extremely tiresome and irritating.

Edit: I will try and see if I can find where you said what I claimed.

+
I have searched, and I tender my apologies. It was not you. Someone else has previously argued to me citing Hebrews 11:19, arguing that Abraham’s act wasn't "murderous" because he had "accounted that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead."

I confused that with you because the topic was also discussed with you.

Please this does not mean that you should continue your habit of accusing one of lying at the slightest thing.

KobolanderSegun:
The death if Jesus Christ does have Scientific Liberating Properties.

In life transference of energy is highly critical for survival. Plants are alive and we pluck them off trees, we eat them and we survive. Animals eat each other to ward of starvation. When Animals die they decompose by being eaten by bacteria. The soil is nourished when a living thing dies on it as the living thing is broken down into chemicals which the soil uses. This life and death is the cycle of life.

The power of death

To become great you have to live for something and expend energy in something, this expending of energy is what gives life to ones vocation. To be a great musician you have to live for music and expend alot if energy in music, it is this expending if either mental energy, vocal energy that gives rise to higher quality in music

Most of the world's most successful people become that way because of high levels of expended energy. You buy a loaf of bread, workers went through a lot to produce that bread.

The world's best athletes like runners, basketballers expend high levels of energy

Gender Disparity
The reason why male athletes earn more than women is because male athletes expend more energy than female athletes

Victor Osimhen
The reason why Victor Osimhen is beloved in Galatasaray is because of his abnormally high levels of energy which he uses on the football field. Watching Victor Osimhen is highly liberating and awe inspiring.


As we age our tastes change. When we feel like we are tired we have a tendency to gravitate towards entertainment that refreshes us. When we are extremely tired the only type of entertainment than can revive us is one where the entertainment involves high levels of creativity, ingenuity and consumption of energy

Michael Jordan is widely regarded as the greatest athlete of all time because of his high levels of energy and energy decipation.

In romance when people fall deeply in love with each other the phrase " I will die for you " if often used. That phrase means " I will give up everything to make sure you survive ". Sadly unserious deceptive people also make such statements.

The Death of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Lived for the Truth and Died for the Truth.

Belief

That Jesus Christ died for you only has meaning if you believe he died for you. If you do not believe it has absolutely no value .

We have been in situations where we loved a woman like our lives depended on it but she did not believe despite the amount of kindness and consideration showed, because she did not believe does not mean your thoughts, words and actions were not true it means she closed herself to a reality that was real and some of her friends told her was real but despite enjoying the reality she refused to believe in a reality others saw.

As I said earlier Life and Death is the cycle of Life, all living things profit from the death of another organism.

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This is a powerful post again and there is alot to learn here, you have said a lot that is highly instructive and teaches wisdom.

However please -

1. Can you summarize your take as it relates to the topic of this thread and concisely tell us if you believe in vicarious redemption through the alleged propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.

2. When you say - "That Jesus Christ died for you only has meaning if you believe he died for you. If you do not believe it has absolutely no value." - Does this mean that whatever one believes works for one?

tctrills:
Take your time and go through the below, then let me know if you have questions

Jehovah describes Himself in the Old Testament in a very specific way. In Isaiah 44:6, He says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." He’s saying He is the beginning and the end of everything.

Now, look at the very end of the Bible in Revelation 22:13. Jesus is speaking and says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

You can’t have two different people both being "The First and the Last." If Jehovah is the First and Last, and Jesus is the First and Last, they are the same Being. Jesus is just the "Jehovah" that came down to earth.

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Please go and read Revelation 22 well. You will see that the person speaking there is God, through an Angel (see verse 1 and 9).

The Old Testament is obsessed with calling God "The Rock." Psalm 18:2 says, "The Lord [Jehovah] is my rock, and my fortress." It was a title saved only for God because He was the steady foundation for the Israelites.

But check out what Paul says in the New Testament. He’s talking about the Israelites wandering in the desert for 40 years, and he says they "drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4).

The simple version: Paul is saying that the person looking out for the Israelites in the desert, the one they called "The Rock" (Jehovah), was actually Jesus the whole time, long before He was even born in Bethlehem.

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This doesn not necessarily follow. God can be your rock and Jesus who represents him can also be.

In the Old Testament, Jehovah is very clear that he is the only one who can save mankind. In Isaiah 43:11, He says: "I, even I, am the Lord [Jehovah]; and beside me there is no saviour." He’s claiming that "Savior" is His unique title.

Now, look at what the New Testament says about Jesus. In Acts 4:12, it says: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

If Jehovah says He is the only Savior, and the Apostles say Jesus is the only Savior, they aren't arguing they’re talking about the same person. You can't have two "only" saviors unless they are the same Being.

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No again, the same thing. If God saves you through Jesus, then God is your savior and the same honorific will be applied to Jesus by his followers.

One of the most famous chapters in the Bible is Psalm 23, which starts with: "The Lord [Jehovah] is my shepherd." The Israelites looked at Jehovah as the one who leads, feeds, and protects His "flock" (His people).

But in the New Testament, Jesus takes that exact title for Himself. In John 10:11, He says: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

Jesus wasn't just saying He was "a" nice guy who liked sheep. By calling Himself The Good Shepherd, He was claiming the specific role that every Israelite knew belonged to Jehovah. He was saying, "The Shepherd you’ve been singing about in the Psalms? That’s Me."

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Again the same thing. If God guides you through Christ, Christ is your Shepherd as well.

In Isaiah 40:28, the Bible asks: "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord [Jehovah], the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary?" It credits the creation of the entire universe to Jehovah.

Then, look at the very beginning of the Gospel of John. Talking about Jesus (the Word), it says in John 1:3: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Paul says the same thing in Colossians 1:16, that by Jesus "were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth."

If Jehovah created the world, and the Bible says Jesus created the world, then Jesus is the Creator. He is Jehovah. He is the one who actually formed the rocks, the trees, and the stars before He ever stepped foot on Earth as a baby.

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Again the same thing. It is said that God created the world through his word, Christ. That is the doctrine taught, not that I believe it.

The Old Testament clearly identifies Jehovah as the Great Judge who will decide the fate of all people. Psalm 96:13 says: "For he [Jehovah] cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness."

Yet, Jesus tells His followers that the Father has handed that specific job over to Him. In John 5:22, Jesus says: "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."

If the Old Testament says Jehovah is the Judge, and the New Testament says Jesus is the Judge, it’s because they are the same person. Jesus is the Jehovah who saw everything from the beginning and will be the one we all talk to at the end.

+
Delegation at work.

The Old Testament Declaration (Isaiah 45:22–23)
In this passage, Jehovah is speaking. He is making it clear that He is the only God and that eventually, the entire world will have to acknowledge Him.

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself... That unto me [Jehovah] every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

Jehovah says this honor belongs to Him alone. In the Jewish mind, bowing the knee was the ultimate sign of worshiping the one true God.

The New Testament Application (Philippians 2:10–11)
Now, look at what Paul writes about Jesus. He uses the exact same wording, but he puts Jesus’ name in the center of it.

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

+
It is said in scripture that God has honored the son this way.

The portions I have not quoted are of no merit whatsoever. At best they argue for the deity of Christ or the Trinity and certainly not the perverse idea that the father is not the God of the Old Testament.

DeepSight:
+
This is a powerful post again and there is alot to learn here, you have said a lot that is highly instructive and teaches wisdom.

However please -

1. Can you summarize your take as it relates to the topic of this thread and concisely tell us if you believe in vicarious redemption through the alleged propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.

2. When you say - "That Jesus Christ died for you only has meaning if you believe he died for you. If you do not believe it has absolutely no value." - Does this mean that whatever one believes works for one?

Whatever you believe does not work for you. In like if you want to drink unclean water you will fall sick.

Belief and Reality
There is reality and there is belief

Reality is concrete, Belief is largely in the mind
If I want to drink 7up I believe it is good for me and will not harm me.

All conscious action is guided by belief. I believe you will read this that is why I am writing this.

All belief must be tested to avoid pain and frustrations, since we have a proven objective rapour I am looking at the past to continue communication with you. This now makes my belief stronger because I have proof of past engagement to continue along those lines.

Jesus Christ and Entertainment, Music and Sports

The world is full of Wonderful people, musicians, Writers each contributing to uplift people personally and collectively.

If I told you that if you watch Michael Jordan Play basketball it would change your mood you are free to dismiss it, laugh at it or mock it. You are very free to disbelieve it. By disbelieving it Michael Jordan cannot have any effect on you because you refuse to watch. But that does not change the fact that millions around the world will say they felt better after watching Michael Jordan play basketball

Water E no get Enemy
If I offered you a glass of cold water when you were thirsty you have the right to reject it. You can go and get your own water from another source but that does not change the fact that my water was clean and cold.

Belief in Jesus
As mentioned in the above examples belief in Jesus and Unbelief in Jesus is a very normal thing, people have the right to believe in what they want.

Belief in Women
Most of us have been in relationships with real life women who we loved with all our hearts and they did not love us. Because they did not love us does not mean we did not love them.,.

Conclusion

All belief most be slowly observed and the mind must be fully engaged in looking for the merits or the demerits in the believe. All believe must be brought into the realm of human understanding so that one does not follow a wrong belief which will produce a disastrous outcome

As we have seen with the Iran vs America war the ability to think without passion or emotion but follow logic , cause and effect will make one seen the war from a clearer perspective.

See Jesus as a man first and the pieces will fall into place. See him how you can understand him. See Michael Jordan as a Man and you will say " He is from another planet."

DeepSight:
+
I have searched, and I tender my apologies. It was not you. Someone else has previously argued to me citing Hebrews 11:19, arguing that Abraham’s act wasn't "murderous" because he had "accounted that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead."

I confused that with you because the topic was also discussed with you.

Please this does not mean that you should continue your habit of accusing one of lying at the slightest thing.

Please if you want to apologise don't do it half and I advise you tag the guy you made that incorrect claim about me to.
Let's show some decency please

tctrills:
Please if you want to apologise don't do it half and I advise you tag the guy you made that incorrect claim about me to.
Let's show some decency please

+
What? Pomposity after an apology? To hell then.

DeepSight:
+
How do we all kill many times?

Atonement for me is by -

1. Feeling genuine contrition
2. Apologizing and seeking forgiveness
3. Making reparations as much as possible
4. Suffering any pain or loss which symbolically signifies acceptance of punishment

I believe you are pretending here for there is no person who did not later real eyes and that they have kieed, a certain person. And the person told them "you have have killed me".

This is spiritual murder and everyone is guilty of it and the person who goes ahead to physically mudar a person is guilty twice for he had kieed both spiritually and physically.

And if you are still pretending not to know this, then it is clear that you are looking forward to the judgement for did your genuine contrition of saying "I'm sorry, please forgive me" wipe that sin you caused on that day?

No!

Some of the people still went ahead and exerted vengeance and it was after their vengeance that you rested.

That clearly told you that saying "I'm sorry forgive me" is not sufficient atonement and cannot atone for certain sins eg betrayal, adultery, cheating, spiritual killing etc

Dtruthspeaker:
I believe you are pretending here for there is no person who did not later real eyes and that they have kieed, a certain person. And the person told them "you have have killed me".

This is spiritual murder and everyone is guilty of it and the person who goes ahead to physically mudar a person is guilty twice for he had kieed both spiritually and physically.

+
This is rubbish. I will not bother with it.

And if you are still pretending not to know this, then it is clear that you are looking forward to the judgement for did your genuine contrition of saying "I'm sorry, please forgive me" wipe that sin you caused on that day?

No!

Some of the people still went ahead and exerted vengeance and it was after their vengeance that you rested.

That clearly told you that saying "I'm sorry forgive me" is not sufficient atonement and cannot atone for certain sins eg betrayal, adultery, cheating, spiritual killing etc

+
I never suggested saying sorry is enough. I listed steps.

KobolanderSegun:
Whatever you believe does not work for you. In like if you want to drink unclean water you will fall sick.

Belief and Reality
There is reality and there is belief

Reality is concrete, Belief is largely in the mind
If I want to drink 7up I believe it is good for me and will not harm me.

All conscious action is guided by belief. I believe you will read this that is why I am writing this.

All belief must be tested to avoid pain and frustrations, since we have a proven objective rapour I am looking at the past to continue communication with you. This now makes my belief stronger because I have proof of past engagement to continue along those lines.

Jesus Christ and Entertainment, Music and Sports

The world is full of Wonderful people, musicians, Writers each contributing to uplift people personally and collectively.

If I told you that if you watch Michael Jordan Play basketball it would change your mood you are free to dismiss it, laugh at it or mock it. You are very free to disbelieve it. By disbelieving it Michael Jordan cannot have any effect on you because you refuse to watch. But that does not change the fact that millions around the world will say they felt better after watching Michael Jordan play basketball

Water E no get Enemy
If I offered you a glass of cold water when you were thirsty you have the right to reject it. You can go and get your own water from another source but that does not change the fact that my water was clean and cold.

Belief in Jesus
As mentioned in the above examples belief in Jesus and Unbelief in Jesus is a very normal thing, people have the right to believe in what they want.

Belief in Women
Most of us have been in relationships with real life women who we loved with all our hearts and they did not love us. Because they did not love us does not mean we did not love them.,.

Conclusion

All belief most be slowly observed and the mind must be fully engaged in looking for the merits or the demerits in the believe. All believe must be brought into the realm of human understanding so that one does not follow a wrong belief which will produce a disastrous outcome

As we have seen with the Iran vs America war the ability to think without passion or emotion but follow logic , cause and effect will make one seen the war from a clearer perspective.

See Jesus as a man first and the pieces will fall into place. See him how you can understand him. See Michael Jordan as a Man and you will say " He is from another planet."

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To be honest this left me befuddled.

DeepSight:
+
I have searched, and I tender my apologies. It was not you. Someone else has previously argued to me citing Hebrews 11:19, arguing that Abraham’s act wasn't "murderous" because he had "accounted that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead...

It is 50/50.

It is murder only in the eyes of men as they are not privy to the communication between God and Abraham.

And it is not murder because it was an act Commanded by God (Force Majeure). And here is where you see that God is our Ruler and that even if Abraham had carried it out, no one would be able to accuse and prosecute him just like the case of Phinehas or stoning a person to death in execution of God's judgement.

Please go and read Revelation 22 well. You will see that the person speaking there is God, through an Angel (see verse 1 and 9).
This is just being lazy and incorrect.
I guess because you read the phase worship God in verse 9 you made such a false and incredible leap.
Now, did you not read where it wrote, behold, I come quickly; Who did the bible tell you is coming.

This doesn not necessarily follow. God can be your rock and Jesus who represents him can also be.
Smart argument here, and I will not press you here because you implicate yourself in the very next paragraph.

No again, the same thing. If God saves you through Jesus, then God is your savior and the same honorific will be applied to Jesus by his followers.
Here, you are not making an intelligent argument.
You accept the old testament teaching that Jehovah is the only Saviour but refuse the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Saviour. If your argument is that you believe the old testament and doubt the new, we shouldn't be having this discussion at all. But I happen to know that you doubt the old testament as well so this your argument can't fly.
Remember, we learn that there is only one Saviour not 2 so, if the bible is correct Jesus Christ= Jehovah the Saviour


Again the same thing. If God guides you through Christ, Christ is your Shepherd as well.
Again, we can leave this for now.


Again the same thing. It is said that God created the world [b]through his word, Christ. That is the doctrine taught, not that I believe it.[/b]
We are not talking about what you believe, we are talking about who the bible says Jesus Christ is. It says, the world was created by Him. How would you twist this one? If the world was created by Him, He is the creator.



Delegation at work.
This by far the most intelligent of all your arguments and I will prove it to you with something you believe.
The president appoints the chief judge so by your argument the president can claim to be the chief judge.
Jesus Christ was appointed by His Father to judge the world, it would be incorrect and dishonest for the Father to claim He is the judge.
When you delegate your daughter to wash plate, you don't go telling people that you did the dishes.

It is said in scripture that God has honored the son this way.
I am not sure you read the verse. It said,
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself... That unto me [Jehovah] every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."
The phrase" there is none else" explains it. God is expected to be consistent.

So let's summarise. I didn't make arguments on the grey areas because I didn't need to.
Just 2 areas foil your rebuttal.
1. We are told there is only one Saviour not 2. So it the New testament reveals that the Saviour is Jesus Christ that only makes Him Jehovah and not His Father.

2. The Father is not going to judge anyone. The Father is in no way shape or form the judge. Just as you didn't do the dishes because you asked your daughter to. And Tinubu is not the chief judge because he chose one.
So if anyone must believe the Bible, Jesus Christ is the only judge and that makes Him Jehovah according to the old testament.

Lastly, always remember that we are not debating what you believe, we are debating what the Bible teaches.
And if Jesus Christ is the Saviour and the Judge, then He alone is Jehovah.

Not to forget that He clearly told us that He is I Am (Jehovah)

DeepSight:
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What? Pomposity after an apology? To hell then.

We both knew you were never serious with your apology. You made a false witness against me but you don't feel the responsibility to contact the person you lied to and make sure he sees your corrections?
Well I can't force you to do the right thing.
I will only advise you stop your wickedness. You gain nothing spoiling other people's name just because you don't like them

DeepSight:
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This is rubbish. I will not bother with it.

No problem
You have the right to run away from bitter Truth. But the Truth always catches up and swallows you

DeepSight:
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I never suggested saying sorry is enough. I listed steps.

And did those steps cover and purge you of the kind of sins i listed especially when the person offended never revenged?

No Way.

And this is where if you carried out your steps 3 and 4, you just punisd yourself as it does not count exactly how no one would accept a kidnapper punishing himself for kidnapping.

So, yes, some sins are remediable and atoneable but there are many you can never remember nor atone for and that is where Judgement going to get you

tctrills:
We both knew you were never serious with your apology. You made a false witness against me but you don't feel the responsibility to contact the person you lied to and make sure he sees your corrections?
Well I can't force you to do the right thing.
I will only advise you stop your wickedness. You gain nothing spoiling other people's name just because you don't like them

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This is intolerable arrogance after someone apologised with an explanation. I hate this kind of nonsensical behaviour. Good bye.

DeepSight:
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This is intolerable arrogance after someone apologised with an explanation. I hate this kind of nonsensical behaviour. Good bye.

Oga stop being a pretender. Go back and let the guy know you made a mistake. But you wouldn't because it was not a mistake. You were just being wicked.

tctrills:
Oga stop being a pretender. Go back and let the guy know you made a mistake. But you wouldn't because it was not a mistake. You were just being wicked.

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It was not on this platform and it does not concern the person.

It's absurd the way you think. What could I gain by deliberately telling a falsehood about such a point?

Anyways, I have done my bit by owning my error and apologizing. No one can do better than that.

I can only conclude it is worthless interacting with such a one as you further.

DeepSight:
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It was not on this platform and it does not concern the person.

It's absurd the way you think. What could I gain by deliberately telling a falsehood about such a point?

Anyways, I have done my bit by owning my error and apologizing. No one can do better than that.

I can only conclude it is worthless interacting with such a one as you further.

I can't force you to do the right thing. You claim to have a higher moral standard than God but suddenly, you don't know that you owe it to me to restore my name after your dishonesty

tctrills:
I can't force you to do the right thing. You claim to have a higher moral standard than God but suddenly, you don't know that you owe it to me to restore my name after your dishonesty

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What can restore your name better than an open apology?

There is something wrong with you.
Good bye.

DeepSight:
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What can restore your name better than an open apology?

There is something wrong with you.
Good bye.

See it
You just claimed to have apologized yet it did not work.

So, who will cleanse your sin?

DeepSight:
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What can restore your name better than an open apology?

There is something wrong with you.
Good bye.

You know what to do. It's as easy as typing the guys name. Let's not play dumb

DeepSight:
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I must say this is a thorough and interesting argument and very well put forward, also emotionally compelling. Tctrills, someone has done your homework for you.

While I thank you for this, I must juxtapose what you have written against the justice of God. God, remember, is not just said to be an emotional loving father in the human sense, but also our creator and most importantly in this context, our judge. And God is said to be perfectly just, and divine justice would simply not be perfect if there are escape loops such as one person coming to bear the consequence of another persons sin. It is written in the bible itself that we will reap what we sow, and so it is clear that in terms of divine justice, there can be no escape hatch by bringing one person to bear the consequences for another person.

Another thing you should reflect upon is that such a practice would make God a bad parent in that it would amount to a kind of cheating and therefore fail to instill the required discipline in humans.

Your argument is emotionally compelling but it ends there - it only appeals to the human side of things and does not speak to the matter of justice. Furthermore, it also fails because as an analogy it does not depict your child having committed a crime which deserves punishment, it only depicts him or her in an unfortunate position of distress without any sin and in need of rescue. Such an analogy is incurably bad when we are talking about sin and conseqence.


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Tctrills has argued that Abram was willing to do this because he knew Isaac would be resurrected. As an aside one may question the value and sacrifice of Jesus laying down his life since he knew he would be resurrected in a short three days. But I digress.

The point remains that it will forever be barbaric to ask a parent to kill his child. And in this instance what for? To make God happy? Does God drink human blood? What exactly for? What kind of God will make such a barbaric, pagan and contemptible demand? There can NEVER be anything holy or righteous about such a satanic command please.

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SirTee15, it was not Tctrills who argued the bold. I was mistaken.

tctrills:
You know what to do. It's as easy as typing the guys name. Let's not play dumb

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I actually thought you were saying I should notify the person who actually made that argument. I only just realised what you meant and have done that.

Dtruthspeaker:
See it
You just claimed to have apologized yet it did not work.

So, who will cleanse your sin?

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Are you saying that an atonement does not work even if one is contrite and does everything possible to make reparations?

Well, I can only agree to that for some really grievous crimes.

But that will be before man and not before God.

DeepSight:
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I actually thought you were saying I should notify the person who actually made that argument. I only just realised what you meant and have done that.

Good. Thank you

tctrills:
Good. Thank you

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So we can continue.