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Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Some of you don't know that Christianity is quite different from Judaism.
Abraham, Isaac,. Jacob, Moses etc practiced Judaism and were repotted in the Bible.
Jesus is the Author of new covenant. Whatever error you find in old testament has been corrected in new testament.
Love
Life
And peace

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

From ivu minds come ivu speaches. -

None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see." — Matthew Henry

The passage clearly tells us why.

"Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel" exactly how the Israelites kindled it severally in the wilderness.

May God specially respond to your blasphemies speedily

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Didn't you understand the chapter? What explanation are you seeking? I guess you are not seeking an explanation but you are asking us to justify God's actions right?

Well God is the giver and taker of life so if every time He takes a life, you accuse Him of murder, I really don't know what to tell you.
We are about 8 billion people on earth, we all would die one day, so you can go ahead and accuse God of their murder.

But then, let me ask you, if you created anything for yourself, and you destroy it, can any court find you guilty?
If no, why do you think God is guilty of a crime?

tctrills:
Didn't you understand the chapter? What explanation are you seeking? I guess you are not seeking an explanation but you are asking us to justify God's actions right?

Well God is the giver and taker of life so if every time He takes a life, you accuse Him of murder, I really don't know what to tell you.
We are about 8 billion people on earth, we all would die one day, so you can go ahead and accuse God of their murder.

But then, let me ask you, if you created anything for yourself, and you destroy it, can any court find you guilty?
If no, why do you think God is guilty of a crime?

The first verse already answered it saying

"Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel"

When a man wakes up one morning and start accusing a spirit being he has concluded that he does not exist of physical death, nor be juju or village people at work be that?

tctrills:
Didn't you understand the chapter? What explanation are you seeking? I guess you are not seeking an explanation but you are asking us to justify God's actions right?

Well God is the giver and taker of life so if every time He takes a life, you accuse Him of murder, I really don't know what to tell you.
We are about 8 billion people on earth, we all would die one day, so you can go ahead and accuse God of their murder.

But then, let me ask you, if you created anything for yourself, and you destroy it, can any court find you guilty?
If no, why do you think God is guilty of a crime?

Simpliciti Simplicita
But I guess DeepSight has been dulled by hate for God and may not get the simple logic here

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

When God formed that nation (Israel) He didn't appoint a king to rule over them because imperfect humans could be lured into doing bad things so God chose a highpriest to lead His people in worship and a judge to lead them when it's time for judgment.

The Israelites later demanded for a king in the days of Samuel the Highpriest and prophet of God. 1Samuel 8:5
Samuel tried to right the wrong by warning them against that decision but the people insisted on having a human king instead of the arrangement of God. 1Samuel 8:10-18

So when God chose David to rule over His people it doesn't mean David was a perfect king rather to an extent humanly possible David is the best out of all imperfect humans who could rule over them.
Satan incited David against God will {1Chronicles 21:1} that is why the people (who asked for a human king) died through the hands of angels who were enforcing God's judicial decisions!

tctrills:
Didn't you understand the chapter? What explanation are you seeking? I guess you are not seeking an explanation but you are asking us to justify God's actions right?

Well God is the giver and taker of life so if every time He takes a life, you accuse Him of murder, I really don't know what to tell you.
We are about 8 billion people on earth, we all would die one day, so you can go ahead and accuse God of their murder.

But then, let me ask you, if you created anything for yourself, and you destroy it, can any court find you guilty?
If no, why do you think God is guilty of a crime?

Kukutente23:
Simpliciti Simplicita
But I guess DeepSight has been dulled by hate for God and may not get the simple logic here

+
What's wrong with a census. And notice just like with Pharaoh it's Yahweh who goes about putting the idea into David's mind in the first place before punishing him for it.
Isn't it weird that he slaughters 70, 000 innocent people for this?

MaxInDHouse:
When God formed that nation (Israel) He didn't appoint a king to rule over them because imperfect humans could be lured into doing bad things so God chose a highpriest to lead His people in worship and a judge to lead them when it's time for judgment.

The Israelites later demanded for a king in the days of Samuel the Highpriest and prophet of God. 1Samuel 8:5
Samuel tried to right the wrong by warning them against that decision but the people insisted on having a human king instead of the arrangement of God. 1Samuel 8:10-18

So when God chose David to rule over His people it doesn't mean David was a perfect king rather to an extent humanly possible David is the best out of all imperfect humans who could rule over them.
Satan incited David against God will {1Chronicles 21:1} that is why the people (who asked for a human king) died through the hands of angels who were enforcing God's judicial decisions!

+
You haven't said anything

Jilo83:
Some of you don't know that Christianity is quite different from Judaism.
Abraham, Isaac,. Jacob, Moses etc practiced Judaism and were repotted in the Bible.
Jesus is the Author of new covenant. Whatever error you find in old testament has been corrected in new testament.
Love
Life
And peace

+
Is it not worrisome that this is still the same God of the Bible acting this way. Is he not supposed to be the same yesterday, today and forever?

DeepSight:
+
You haven't said anything

I was talking to interested individuals who may like to know why God killed the Israelites due to the blunder of their king.
So if you don't understand don't worry others will!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
I was talking to interested individuals who may like to know why God killed the Israelites due to the blunder of their king.
So if you don't understand don't worry others will!🙂

+
Leave this thread at once.

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Where a man kills another allegedly for God's sake, it raises several questions and such a man may be convicted for murder.

However, when God kills a man, on what basis would you question God as the creator of man? If a farmer who did not create a Hen takes one from his backyard, kills and prepares it for a meal, what Court to we take the farmer ro or what crime do we accuse him of? Of course in these days you may see misguided animal rights people that may even attack such a farmer, and other hen would call the farmer a murderer.

However, if the giver of life takes life, no one can question or accuse him. It is God that gives meaning and purpose to our lives. As the creator, God has absolute rights and power over our lives.

Of course as a hen in animal farm, you may concort your own reason for existence and even believe it as if you are sufficient unto yourself and of some importance.

Babinski:
Where a man kills another allegedly for God's sake, it raises several questions and such a man may be convicted for murder.

However, when God kills a man, on what basis would you question God as the creator of man? If a farmer who did not create a Hen takes one from his backyard, kills and prepares it for a meal, what Court to we take the farmer ro or what crime do we accuse him of? Of course in these days you may see misguided animal rights people that may even attack such a farmer, and other hen would call the farmer a murderer.

However, if the giver of life takes life, no one can question or accuse him. It is God that gives meaning and purpose to our lives. As the creator, God has absolute rights and power over our lives.

Of course as a hen in animal farm, you may concort your own reason for existence and even believe it as if you are sufficient unto yourself and of some importance.

+
This argument could work if the so called God of Justice just took the lives simpliciter without giving reasons.

But in this case he makes clear that it is a punishment for a census. A census which he himself instigated!

How does that make sense for a God of Justice?

DeepSight:
+
What's wrong with a census. And notice just like with Pharaoh it's Yahweh who goes about putting the idea into David's mind in the first place before punishing him for it.
Isn't it weird that he slaughters 70, 000 innocent people for this?

Is it weird? Yes, the story is just like a few others in the bible. We don't know God's reason for all His actions but accusing the creator of life of murder is just crazy.
Hope you know that God will ultimately take all life. Death is a part of His plan.

In the case of David, I don't know the reasons of His actions.

But honestly, I think it is ok not to understand everything about God.

I will do some more learning and get back to you if I have a better explanation.

DeepSight:
+
This argument could work if the so called God of Justice just took the lives simpliciter without giving reasons.

But in this case he makes clear that it is a punishment for a census. A census which he himself instigated!

How does that make sense for a God of Justice?

The challenge for you is that you call God a God of Justice where the justice is defined from your own point of view. However, if you take it that God is indeed the Almighty God whose attributes include justice, mercy and omniscience, then you realize that anything God does is justice and the basis for your grievance collapses.

Even if humans were to attempt to sit as Appelate Judges over the matter, they do not have enough facts and knowledge to review the matter because none of them is even near omniscience.

The anger of the Lord was already burning and was both the basis for instigating the census and the resulting punishment.

MTBB

@Deepsight

The census was a violation of the commandments give to the Israelites while in the wilderness. David simply went against Yahweh's instructions and the people suffered the consequences. You can check the bible verse below for more details.

Exodus 30:11-16

DeepSight:
+
What's wrong with a census. And notice just like with Pharaoh it's Yahweh who goes about putting the idea into David's mind in the first place before punishing him for it.
Isn't it weird that he slaughters 70, 000 innocent people for this?

Is it that you cannot read again? Did you not read that the "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel"

That means, like Pharoah, you and the other Isrealites who perished in the wilderness they were not innocent.

HeatSeeker:
MTBB

@Deepsight

The census was a violation of the commandments give to the Israelites wild in the wilderness. David simply went against Yahweh's instructions and the people suffered the consequences. You can check the bible verse below for more details.

Exodus 30:11-16

You people are not getting it. This is not a David matter. It was Isreal that was being punished and not David.

This is what it happens when God turns against a people

DeepSight:
+
Leave this thread at once.

OK so you don't want people to know the truth shey?😟

But why do you guys like asking when you don't want to be enlightened?🤔

Jilo83:
Some of you don't know that Christianity is quite different from Judaism.
Abraham, Isaac,. Jacob, Moses etc practiced Judaism and were repotted in the Bible.
Jesus is the Author of new covenant. Whatever error you find in old testament has been corrected in new testament.
Love
Life
And peace

This is not correct

Judahism is idolism and no where did you see Abraham and co practice idolism.

https://www.nairaland.com/7790701/judaism-not-what-moses-gave#124873648

MaxInDHouse:
OK so you don't want people to know the truth shey?😟

But why do you guys like asking when you don't want to be enlightened?🤔

+
Don't be silly. I asked. You made a comment that answered nothing. I said so. And then you said it's not meant for me.

DeepSight:
+
Is it not worrisome that this is still the same God of the Bible acting this way. Is he not supposed to be the same yesterday, today and forever?

Is that not what He did yesterday to them in the wilderness? The same thing He did to Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah?

When God decides to treat your f@... up, e don be for you.

HeatSeeker:
MTBB

@Deepsight

The census was a violation of the commandments give to the Israelites wild in the wilderness. David simply went against Yahweh's instructions and the people suffered the consequences. You can check the bible verse below for more details.

Exodus 30:11-16

+
Two issues here. In Exodus, God is rescuing the Israelites from Egypt and that is why he supposedly says when you count them, each is to pay the lord "a ransom for his life."

So we can see that the context was specific and different.

But even if it wasn't the second question remains: why does God instigate the census only to murder the people en mass for what he instigated?

Babinski:
The challenge for you is that you call God a God of Justice where the justice is defined from your own point of view. However, if you take it that God is indeed the Almighty God whose attributes include justice, mercy and omniscience, then you realize that anything God does is justice and the basis for your grievance collapses.

Even if humans were to attempt to sit as Appelate Judges over the matter, they do not have enough facts and knowledge to review the matter because none of them is even near omniscience.

The anger of the Lord was already burning and was both the basis for instigating the census and the resulting punishment.

+
So if the anger of the Lord was already burning against them, presumably that must be for a wrong they did. Why did he have to instigate another thing himself then punish them for it?

DeepSight:
+
This argument could work if the so called God of Justice just took the lives simpliciter without giving reasons.

But in this case he makes clear that it is a punishment for a census. A census which he himself instigated!

How does that make sense for a God of Justice?

Verse 1 already told you "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel"

So, census was just the machinery He used to answer them. No different from using Pharoah's 300years plus slavery of Isreal to deal with Pharoah and Egypt.

And this is where a F@@ is one who does not fear God. What an everlasting fatal mistake

tctrills:
Is it weird? Yes, the story is just like a few others in the bible. We don't know God's reason for all His actions but accusing the creator of life of murder is just crazy.
Hope you know that God will ultimately take all life. Death is a part of His plan.

In the case of David, I don't know the reasons of His actions.

But honestly, I think it is ok not to understand everything about God.

I will do some more learning and get back to you if I have a better explanation.

+
Thanks very much.

I am looking into this too.

Someone has offered an explanation through Exodus 30:11 - 16 but its still not adding up for me because as I said to him -

DeepSight:
+
Two issues here. In Exodus, God is rescuing the Israelites from Egypt and that is why he supposedly says when you count them, each is to pay the lord "a ransom for his life."

So we can see that the context was specific and different.

But even if it wasn't the second question remains: why does God instigate the census only to murder the people en mass for what he instigated?

DeepSight:
+
So if the anger of the Lord was already burning against them, presumably that must be for a wrong they did. Why did he have to instigate another thing himself then punish them for it?

That is what it means to punish a person or people. The punisher gets to decide how, when and what mode of punishment he will deliver.

He can send His arnies, He can send diseases. He can send water and He can send enemies. He can send friends and He can make you make a mistake. All are within His Rights of Punishment.

Dtruthspeaker:
That is what it means to punish a person or people. The punisher gets to decide how, when and what mode of punishment he will deliver.

He can send His arnies, He can send diseases. He can send water and He can send enemies. He can send friends and He can make you make a mistake. All are within His Rights of Punishment.

+
Its not only punishment here. He instigates the act he punishes.

tctrills:
Is it weird? Yes, the story is just like a few others in the bible. We don't know God's reason for all His actions...

Verse 1 already told you the reason

"Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel"

So, census was just the machinery/tool/instrument God used to answer them. No different from Him using Pharoah's 300years plus slavery of Isreal to deal with Pharoah and Egypt.

DeepSight:
+
Its not only punishment here. He instigates the act he punishes.

That is what it means to punish a person or people.

The punisher has full liberty and latitude with no limit in deciding how, when and what mode an affliction will take.

That is what it means to be someone's enemy

And that is why our dear sweet Ron kenoly sang

If You can use anything Lord
You can use me
If You can use anything Lord
You can use me
Take my hands, Lord
And my feet
Touch my heart, Lord
And speak through me
If you can use anything Lord
You can use me
(Repeat)

Lord, you called Moses
From the wilderness
And You put a rod in his hand
You used him to lead Your people
Over to the Promised Land

When David fought Goliath
And that mighty giant fell
He proved to his people
That God was alive in Israel.

God can use anything or anyone like a chess piece, for good or for bad.