₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
Stop wasting my time with sarcasm and be serious.

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Nobody is wasting your time, you atheist. You clearly enjoy this. If your time was so important you could have easily taken and lost this debate with any popular AI app trained on trillions of tokens, but instead you came here to Nairaland to argue with Christians because you assume their knowledge is limited giving you an advantage to sound intelligent.

Oh well, enjoy yourself.

DeepSight:
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But God formed them of clay, they didn't form themselves.

Stop wasting my time with sarcasm and be serious.

But I'm serious. It is you who is not. I told you the crime, you still accuse God of enabling the crime
Once you are of his creation, you can hardly be in a position to question his judgment. Maybe attempt to understand it. But questioning it is out of your remit. That's the implication of being made of clay. Have you ever questioned why the supreme and all-powerful God would choose clay as his preferred material of molding his own image?

DeepSight:
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This made me smile. Nicely written with a splash of humour.

I went to read Exodus 7 as you recommended. In short it says that it's all to glorify God right?

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

Don't you think such a narcissistic reason is loathsome?

No sir. I'm afraid you still suffer from an ability to read yet not understand. God is not flippant. The correct word is judgment not glory as written in vs 4. I believe you're not in doubt as to the cause of God's judgment upon Egypt or do you still need a crash course on that?

So if you are following me, you should realize by now that what you're questioning is God's chosen mode of judgment and not really his sense of justice as you wrongly assumed.

Read 1 Sam 8. The Israelites already broke God's covenant with them by asking for a King "to judge us like all the nations." They already accepted responsibility for their decision in choosing a king like other nations that God explicitly told them not to aspire to be like. So your grouse is with God choosing how to punish them for the misbehavior of the King they asked for. How logical is your grouse with God now?

Kukutente23:
No sir. I'm afraid you still suffer from an ability to read yet not understand. God is not flippant. The correct word is judgment not glory as written in vs 4. I believe you're not in doubt as to the cause of God's judgment upon Egypt or do you still need a crash course on that?

So if you are following me, you should realize by now that what you're questioning is God's chosen mode of judgment and not really his sense of justice as you wrongly assumed.

Read 1 Sam 8. The Israelites already broke God's covenant with them by asking for a King "to judge us like all the nations." They already accepted responsibility for their decision in choosing a king like other nations that God explicitly told them not to aspire to be like. So your grouse is with God choosing how to punish them for the misbehavior of the King they asked for. How logical is your grouse with God now?

Beautiful. Reading this is was like eating suya.

HeatSeeker:
Yahweh is the God of the Israelites. This is an undisputed fact. The same God some Christians gather to scream to every Sunday. No need turning history on it's head or redefining what is already known. The Lord being referenced in this passage is Yahweh.

I have heard it said but I do not really agree. God can not share the same name with a Canaanite god. It is just not possible. So something is wrong here.

MrEar:
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Nobody is wasting your time, you atheist. You clearly enjoy this. If your time was so important you could have easily taken and lost this debate with any popular AI app trained on trillions of tokens, but instead you came here to Nairaland to argue with Christians because you assume their knowledge is limited giving you an advantage to sound intelligent.

Oh well, enjoy yourself.

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Why did you put a plus sign before your response? ? ?

Desist forthwith.

And I am not an atheist. You assume.

Finally, my discussions on these matters are from an interest in human, not mechanical thought.

DeepSight:
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That chap is on a level of intelligence, clarity and rationality that it will take you a number of lifetimes to get to, so you had better humble yourself and calm down.

Your resort to ad hominem fallacy proves that you are lieing.

Let us see if he can validy counter my response instead of you jumping the gun because you think judgement is based on preference

Dtruthspeaker:
I have heard it said but I do not really agree. God can not share the same name with a Canaanite god. It is just not possible. So something is wrong here.

You don't need to agree. The facts are indisputable.

DeepSight:
Why did you put a plus sign before your response? ? ? Desist forthwith.

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No. I wont.

DeepSight:
And I am not an atheist. You assume.

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Here we go again, the usual ''I am not an atheist, I am just deeply interested in debating with Christians about God and the bible'' reply commonly used by athiest.

DeepSight:
Finally, my discussions on these matters are from an interest in human, not mechanical thought.

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You sure? Cos you really do look like an atheist who wants to sounds intelligent by debating with Christians you assume are less intelligent than you. Like I said, enjoy!

HeatSeeker:
You don't need to agree. The facts are indisputable.

Not according to the facts. Records also claim yhwh belongs to canaan also. And God does not do tainted and corrupted things so, it cannot be right that He would share this same name with a Canaanite god. It is just not possible. Something is wrong here

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Very interesting story. I think it was actually Satan (Enlil) who enticed him. He is the Lord of the command. If it was the Lord on high They would us "The Lord God"..
The story teaches us to put our trust in God . David was tempted to do a census. He would have just said "Even if we are 10, it does not matter, we have the Lord God behind us. We fear no foe."....he actually did the census putting his trust in his numbers .....so an angel was sent to take out his pride, at the end some was left behind for him.

What I learned from the story.:

Always put your trust and strength in the Lord GOD most high, one with him is in the majority. In all situations.

U
God

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

God is consciousness personified. .....
So we are expected to read the literature and learn the message they contain. The Bible is not a history textbook. It is a spiritual manual for our life development...
The Torah was written around 550-530 BCE, when the Jews left the Babylonian exile by Ezra who was very versed in the laws of God. Like I said before, I will say it again. It is still about the two brother Enlil(Esau) and Enki(Jacob). Both represent the left and right hand of God.

DeepSight:
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So if the anger of the Lord was already burning against them, presumably that must be for a wrong they did. Why did he have to instigate another thing himself then punish them for it?

He didn't instigate anything. He only permitted Satan to tempt David. He also punished Israel because they "collectively" allowed the "pride of David", in the form of census to proceed.

The reason God told them not to perform a census in the beginning was for them not to be self-reliant but to accept that their protection was from God!

This theme can be seen from the old testament😊. Gideon's story also comes to mind among others. When David performed the census, it was interpreted as self-reliance, invariably pride! And God punished Israel!

So while the Lord permits things to happen he also punishes the actors for their actions. For David, pride and for the rest of Israel, "collective dormancy and complicity in the face of a law breach"!

If God were to perform judgement on Nigeria today, a lot of people will 'go on😂' because a lot are complicit!

Dtruthspeaker:
Not according to the facts. Records also claim yhwh belongs to canaan also. And God does not do tainted and corrupted things so, it cannot be right that He would share this same name with a Canaanite god. It is just not possible. Something is wrong here

Jon snow!

Gabrielshow26:
He didn't instigate anything. He only permitted Satan to tempt David. He also punished Israel because they "collectively" allowed the "pride of David", in the form of census to proceed.

The reason God told them not to perform a census in the beginning was for them not to be self-reliant but to accept that their protection was from God!

This theme can be seen from the old testament😊. Gideon's story also comes to mind among others. When David performed the census, it was interpreted as self-reliance, invariably pride! And God punished Israel!

So while the Lord permits things to happen he also punishes the actors for their actions. For David, pride and for the rest of Israel, "collective dormancy and complicity in the face of a law breach"!

If God were to perform judgement on Nigeria today, a lot of people will 'go on😂' because a lot are complicit!

You are a little wrong here. Verse 1 already shows that God planned on punishing them.

And there is nothing wrong in God instigating David or in allowing satan to set up David to set up Isreal to receive the punishment.

They are all covered by the Right of a punisher to punish a person/people in the way and manner He deems fit. Exactly like saying "na you won tell me how i go punish am?"

So, there is nothing to be ashamed in admitting that yes, God used David to punish Isreal exactly how He used Philistines, Persia and Romans to annihilate them in accordance to His Word

HeatSeeker:
Jon snow!

See, even you do not deny that some records claim so.

Dtruthspeaker:

See, even you do not deny that some records claim so.

I am not denying or confirming anything. Just surprised that you don't know that you don't know.

Gabrielshow26:
The reason God told them not to perform a census in the beginning was for them not to be self-reliant but to accept that their protection was from God!

This theme can be seen from the old testament. Gideon's story also comes to mind among others.

I believe this because it's interestingly factual!

Hmmmmmmm, census was for people to feel self-reliant but even though they are few with God they are the majority!

Gabriel you really nailed this point!🤔

HeatSeeker:
I am not denying or confirming anything. Just surprised that you don't know that you don't know.

I do know that records suggest that yhwh is also claimed to be a Canaanite god. And The Holy cannot share the same name with a Canaanite god. And no one has been able to satisfactorily clear that discrepancy.

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

The bible says of God "He will e found righteous when He judges and justified when He speaks". No explanation required, or available, for "His judgements are unsearchable and His ways past finding out"..

You explain this if you can. If you buy a chicken - which you can't create and take its eggs - which you can't lay - and decide to make a nice omelette or throw them at people you don't like, who can query you?


TV

TV01:
The bible says of God "He will e found righteous when He judges and justified when He speaks". No explanation required, or available, for "His judgements are unsearchable and His ways past finding out"..

You explain this if you can. If you buy a chicken - which you can't create and take its eggs - which you can't lay - and decide to make a nice omelette or throw them at people you don't like, who can query you?


TV

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Unscholarly faith induced subservient nonsense.
Its comical how you imagine yourself the bee's knees but consistently come forward so hollow.

Jilo83:
✓ Some of you don't know that Christianity is quite different from Judaism.
Abraham, Isaac,. Jacob, Moses etc practiced Judaism and were repotted in the Bible.
Jesus is the Author of new covenant. Whatever error you find in old testament has been corrected in new testament.
Love. Life. And peace

Judaism is also a religion that has more to do with the content of the Talmud and the Mishnah than it has to do with any of that stated in the Torah, which serves as the supreme law of the nation of Israel described in the Bible books. 🥱🥱

The law of Moses as well as the Gospel of Jesus Christ are both covenants -- political systems -- that established nations of the children of Israel. Judaism and Christians are instead both religions and nothing more.😟😟

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Dear DeepSight you may need to go back some chapters to find why the Lord was Angry. As that man said " context is everything " was God's anger half empty or half full ". Jokes aside " one thing you have clearly brought out is God has no Chosen people and he shows the same degree of ruthlesses to all mankind.

To get a proper understand of the old testament we need to journey back to the first display of God's wicked streak.
When Adam and Eve disobeyed and eat the fruit " God promised them " the day you eat of it you will surely die " Adam and Eve ate it and they did not die immediately. The Death was a spiritual death and a physical one but it did not happen in one day.
It's like me looking at a young boy and saying this guy is going to be the next Messi, he is not the next Messi now but in 15 years time he will be.

If you look at the case of Job , why will God allow Satan to wreck Job who worshipped him ? If you read the portion Job was extremely fearful and he performed sacrifices to God Incase his children insulted God when they were drunk , Job was extremely righteous but he had fears and God allowed Satan to use those fears. Fear and Faith create their results so does Love and hate. Love means man and woman will stay together, hate means fighting and perhaps kpaiying will occur.

When God Judged people in the past it was because those people had sinned or had placed themselves for judgement. It's like writing JAMB exam. The ones who read exceptionally hard who don't go looking for Expo will pass, the ones who are nonchalant will fail, the ones who don't even show up will surely fail.

In the past I hated Moses with every fiber of my being but I fell in love with a babe and I found God through that love. Yes God is indeed love as the bible says. Because I was scared of losing God I believed in Jesus so that I would not lose that love.

That's why the old testament predates Jesus, Moses and Abraham, Enoch was not a Jew is alledged not to have died and gone to heaven. I was not there so it is alledged. Noah the savoir of the World was not a Jew also.

Finally Love is the Greatest thing. The 10 Commandments are about Love. Love for the divine, Love for self and Love for Neighbor.

Why is Love important ? Love is life, Hate is Death. When people are in love they are full of life, hope and creativity, when people are full of hate is when you see crimes like murder, violence.

Why are people born blind ? Why are people born crippled ? Does it mean God does not care ? God has given mankind free will to operate independently of him to do as many pleases. God also created this Universe with laws when the laws of science are broken or are not properly adhered to then you are going to have diseases.

My brother said life was not fair. I told him life was very fair because everyone has problems. There are problem solvers and there are those who Go to God to solve their problems. The latter find Solutions faster.