₦airaland Forum

Dtruthspeaker:
Christians know that Jesus is The Same One Who gave the tablets to Moses.

And every reasonable person knows that all over the world and beyond the borders of Isreal, the word 'father' has a wide meaning and we all know it and use it everyday

Now you are introducing issues to complicate this dialogue. Clearly God gave Moses the Torah, if need be we can discuss how God is or isn't recognised as Jesus from an interpretation of the new testament which this is about but we aren't there yet. Hold on.

Abundance and truth are not synonyms. Abundance describes quantity; truth describes conformity to fact or reality. Saying something is plentiful does not automatically make it true. Your argument is a semantic confusion, not a logical rebuttal

Dtruthspeaker:
When you say something is multiplelly plentiful eg ithe ocean is something that contains multiple plenty waters, is this not Truth and in accordance to facts and real eyeity?

You don't have any reasonable thing to say against our faith, so go plug all the holes you heslam has

MaxInDHouse:
It's wise to ascertain before we believe any information {1Thessalonians 5:21} but when you don't know the purpose of such info then it's meaningless trying to raise questions based on what you choose against another.

For instance what is the purpose of the Quran?
What exactly did Allah promise that will be evidence for Muslims to rely upon?

It's hypocritical pointing to small pimples in someone's face when you have huge boils all over your face!😟

Tell then what is the purpose of the new testament even when Jesus didn't instruct it's collection/production?

tctrills:
Moses received the 10 commandments. It's not written anywhere that he received a book containing the story of the creation or the story of Abraham.
Please let's be accurate about what Moses received.

Reasonably true but the creation stories were not based on Moses being an eyewitness to creation itself. Some traditional religious view hold that God revealed these earlier histories to Moses.
The alternative critically historical view holds that the stories developed through earlier oral and written traditions and were later compiled into the Torah.
How certain are you that there weren't any books reviewed before the Torah though?

Explore2xmore:
Tell then what is the purpose of the new testament even when Jesus didn't instruct it's collection/production?

The Old Covenant (Old Testament) was meant for Jacob's descendants only but the New Covenant (New Testament) is for all faithful and obedient individuals throughout the world who may decide to become worshipers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
With the New Covenant faithful people from all the nations will form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} and there will be understanding among them {Zephaniah 3:9} but the rest will be blinded by Satan {2Corinthians 4:4} fighting and killing themselves despite claiming they are for the same God! Revelation 6:3-4

MaxInDHouse:
The Old Covenant (Old Testament) was meant for Jacob's descendants only but the New Covenant (New Testament) is for all faithful and obedient individuals throughout the world who may decide to become worshipers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
With the New Covenant faithful people from all the nations will form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} and there will be understanding among them {Zephaniah 3:9} but the rest will be blinded by Satan {2Corinthians 4:4} fighting and killing themselves despite claiming they are for the same God! Revelation 6:3-4

Still not getting me, did Jesus hand over a book be it Gospel, new testament or other to people or instruct them to compile/collect one? Where is the proof for that more so that you now say the old testament was for Jacob's descendants then the new covenant for all faithful? Question is aren't a good part of the faithful also descends of Jacob?
Hold on with your references to books in the new testament as it's still being reviewed.

Explore2xmore:
Abundance and truth are not synonyms. Abundance describes quantity; truth describes conformity to fact or reality. Saying something is plentiful does not automatically make it true. Your argument is a semantic confusion, not a logical rebuttal

I did not say that they are synonyms. I only pointed out that it is cconnected and related to Truth. Exactly why you did not deny the Truth and real eyeity that the ocean is abundant with waters. So my rebuttal stands unrebutted.

God promised a new covenant {Jeremiah 31:31-33} it will be written not in what could be seen rather in the hearts of adherents and the one who is coming to teach people will be called a Wonderful Counselor {Isaiah 9:6} that's why Jesus was saying "you have heard that it was said but now i'm telling you this is what you should do" Matthew 5:21-48

So Jesus knew since he never wrote any book rather taught them through words and actions they needed reminders that's why he told them:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come." John 16;12-13

Surely they are to pen down what Jesus taught them and take it to all the nations! Matthew 28:19-20

That's what brought about a covenant that differ from the first covenant!

Explore2xmore:
Still not getting me, did Jesus hand over a book be it Gospel, new testament or other to people or instruct them to compile/collect one? Where is the proof for that more so that you now say the old testament was for Jacob's descendants then the new covenant for all faithful? Question is aren't a good part of the faithful also descends of Jacob?
Hold on with your references to books in the new testament as it's still being reviewed.

Explore2xmore:
Now you are introducing issues to complicate this dialogue. Clearly God gave Moses the Torah, if need be we can discuss how God is or isn't recognised as Jesus from an interpretation of the new testament which this is about but we aren't there yet. Hold unrequited.

I am sure that you have seen many threads here saying Jesus is God. Yes, some disagree however when I remind the dissents that ut is Written Jesus is The Lord, and so I asked them Who did the Bible say gave Moses the Commandments? They all run away cos the answer is clear. Hence, why i said Christians know that Jesus is The Same One Who gave the tablets to Moses.

MaxInDHouse:
Books are useless if users aren't doing what the book was meant for.
The Bible was meant to help gather peace lovers throughout the earth and make them one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers. Isaiah 2:2-4

So if that has been achieved then there is no need arguing about it's authenticity definitely it's God's word!

So now the book is the powerful not the one communicating through the book? Please. Without books weren't people gathered before?

Dtruthspeaker:
Truth does not need anyone to agree. All you need is to prove your claims with valid evidence and not by baseless empty talks given because your islam has too many holes open to attack

Explore2xmore I see you are represented here. Is this on your say so?
In any case the quality of truth is seen in so many things including but not limited to people.

What is the evidence that the author of the book is not devil himself?

So if the book is from God it should be able to unite its adherents there is no sense claiming a book is from God when adherents of the book can't cohabit peacefully among themselves.

honesttalk21:
So now the book is the powerful not the one communicating through the book? Please. Without books weren't people gathered before?

Will return to this much later please.

Dtruthspeaker:
I am sure that you have seen many threads here saying Jesus is God. Yes, some disagree however when I remind the dissents that ut is Written Jesus is The Lord, and so I asked them Who did the Bible say gave Moses the Commandments? They all run away cos the answer is clear. Hence, why i said Christians know that Jesus is The Same One Who gave the tablets to Moses.

Explaining how the New Testament was compiled is not the same as proving the compilation itself was divinely authorized or that every included text is infallibly from God. Describing the historical process explains preservation, not automatic divine validation.
That is precisely why the question about it's authority, canonization, and authenticity makes the subjects of discussion here.

MaxInDHouse:
God promised a new covenant {Jeremiah 31:31-33} it will be written not in what could be seen rather in the hearts of adherents and the one who is coming to teach people will be called a Wonderful Counselor {Isaiah 9:6} that's why Jesus was saying "you have heard that it was said but now i'm telling you this is what you should do" Matthew 5:21-48

So Jesus knew since he never wrote any book rather taught them through words and actions they needed reminders that's why he told them:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come." John 16;12-13

Surely they are to pen down what Jesus taught them and take it to all the nations! Matthew 28:19-20

That's what brought about a covenant that differ from the first covenant!

Explore2xmore:
Will return to this much later please.

Just mention me and when free I will respond

Hmmmmmmm so what matters to you is how the message got to you shey?

Well in that case you can continue your arguments with those churchgoers who likes arguing aimlessly the truth is nobody was there when God created the heaven or earth yet the books you and i carry says a lot about these things and you never cared to ask if its writers were eyewitnesses!🙂

Explore2xmore:
Explaining how the New Testament was compiled is not the same as proving the compilation itself was divinely authorized or that every included text is infallibly from God. Describing the historical process explains preservation, not automatic divine validation.
That is precisely why the question about it's authority, canonization, and authenticity makes the subjects of discussion here.

Having trouble with your logic here. What power independent of God does the devil have then how does all this relate?

MaxInDHouse:
What is the evidence that the author of the book is not devil himself?

So if the book is from God it should be able to unite its adherents there is no sense claiming a book is from God when adherents of the book can't cohabit peacefully among themselves.

Explore2xmore:
Reasonably true but the creation stories were not based on Moses being an eyewitness to creation itself. Some traditional religious view hold that God revealed these earlier histories to Moses.
The alternative critically historical view holds that the stories developed through earlier oral and written traditions and were later compiled into the Torah.
How certain are you that there weren't any books reviewed before the Torah though?

Now apply these arguments to the new testament.
God revealed them to Paul and the other apostles.
Some of them got the stories from earlier oral and written traditions

honesttalk21:
Having trouble with your logic here. What power independent of God does the devil have then how does all this relate?

My Bible says Satan himself is a God so if you don't know what a God can do with regards to writing a message and enforcing it on people then you don't want to learn.
Before God called Abraham people in different places has been worshiping idols and it's demons who are behind such forms of worship so when God started using humans to pen down His own message Satan as the God of this world also did exactly the same thing.

tctrills:
Now apply these arguments to the new testament.
God revealed them to Paul and the other apostles.
Some of them got the stories from earlier oral and written traditions

Yes, that works within a faith-based framework, much like arguments made about Moses and the Torah even if many points ascertain there were books before the Torah. But it still doesn't fully resolve the historical question of authorization, transmission, or canon formation, since Jesus did not leave behind a finalized New Testament canon or explicit written instructions for compiling one.

Now that looks more like inability to engage any further. Separating people types from the book doesn't auger well for the book.

MaxInDHouse:
Hmmmmmmm so what matters to you is how the message got to you shey?

Well in that case you can continue your arguments with those churchgoers who likes arguing aimlessly the truth is nobody was there when God created the heaven or earth yet the books you and i carry says a lot about these things and you never cared to ask if its writers were eyewitnesses!🙂

honesttalk21:
Explore2xmore I see you are represented here. Is this on your say so?
In any case the quality of truth is seen in so many things including but not limited to people.

No I don't subscribe to his view, are you in a hurry?

Explore2xmore:
Now that looks more like inability to engage any further. Separating people types from the book doesn't auger well for the book.

I am one of the true Christians!

We don't argue needlessly {1Corinthans 9:26} what you are asking will only lead to endless arguments such is only required when you just want to convince yourself of whatever religion you practice your preconceived thought is the driving force so there is nothing like helping anyone to see reasons with your faith and get converted.

In true Christianity our aim is to win a soul and if possible find a better religion than the one we practice.

Why stop short of the full message? Your Bible says in 2 Corinthians 4 that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Notice the small g and doesn't this Bible also mankind are gods too? Stop though this is from a documentation under scrutiny.
Before people began worshipping other than God before Abraham was called wasn't there a time before when people worshiped God?
Who are you to win a soul God hasn't stated to be won and is it you or God that's winning?

MaxInDHouse:
My Bible says Satan himself is a God so if you don't know what a God can do with regards to writing a message and enforcing it on people then you don't want to learn.
Before God called Abraham people in different places has been worshiping idols and it's demons who are behind such forms of worship so when God started using humans to pen down His own message Satan as the God of this world also did exactly the same thing.

Humans are Gods too because they are acting as SUPREME RULERS who can call for the execution of another human and force their rules on others.

So if mere humans can do that then a powerful spirit like Satan can do much more!😟

honesttalk21:
Why stop short of the full message? Your Bible says in 2 Corinthians 4 that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Notice the small g and doesn't this Bible also mankind are gods too? Stop though this is from a documentation under scrutiny.
Before people began worshipping other than God before Abraham was called wasn't there a time before when people worshiped God?
Who are you to win a soul God hasn't stated to be won and is it you or God that's winning?

MaxInDHouse:
Humans are Gods too because they are acting as SUPREME RULERS who can call for the execution of another human and force their rules on others.

So if mere humans can do that then a powerful spirit like Satan can do much more!😟

See your contradiction now? How will a lesser god create a book to control stronger gods? Subjecte supremacy?

honesttalk21:
See your contradiction now? How will a lesser god create a book to control stronger gods? Subjecte supremacy?

Who are lesser Gods controlling stronger Gods?😟

Explore2xmore:
Yes, that works within a faith-based framework, much like arguments made about Moses and the Torah even if many points ascertain there were books before the Torah. But it still doesn't fully resolve the historical question of authorization, transmission, or canon formation, since Jesus did not leave behind a finalized New Testament canon or explicit written instructions for compiling one.

But it's the very same for most figures in ancient history.
We can start with the pharaohs of Egypt. Many recognised ancient historians wrote about the events centuries after yet, it is accepted by the academic community, why should it be a different standard for religion?
Why will you accept Arrian (writing on Alexander the Great) or Plutarch (writing on the Roman Republic) as authentic history?
Is our believe of Alexander the great faith based?

tctrills:
But it's the very same for most figures in ancient history.
We can start with the pharaohs of Egypt. Many recognised ancient historians wrote about the events centuries after yet, it is accepted by the academic community, why should it be a different standard for religion?
Why will you accept Arrian (writing on Alexander the Great) or Plutarch (writing on the Roman Republic) as authentic history?
Is our believe of Alexander the great faith based?

The Alexander/pharaoh comparison misses the point. History like Alexander is built from multiple independent sources and evidence, so conclusions are probabilistic, not based on trusting any single author like Arrian or Plutarch.
The Torah claim is structurally different. One Law, one mediator (Moses), and a unified chain of transmission tied to a foundational national event. The New Testament doesn’t follow that model as Paul never met Jesus during his actual ministry, the Gospels are anonymous, authority was disputed early on (Galatians 2), and the canon took centuries to settle.
So the analogy fails. History doesn’t require divine authority claims, but revelation does. And without a non-circular way to verify revelation, you end up with circular reasoning. It’s true because it’s inspired, and inspired because it says so?

[quote author=Explore2xmore post=139378523]The Alexander/pharaoh comparison misses the point. History like Alexander is built from multiple independent sources and evidence, so conclusions are probabilistic, not based on trusting any single author like Arrian or Plutarch.
The gospels are built from 4 independent sources. In fact, the gospels have far more witnesses than the writings on any pharaoh or Alexander the great.
And for much of ancient history, we don't have multiple witnesses.
Let's take the pharaoh Menes, believe to have lived around 3100 BC. Manetho was the first historian to write about him lived about 2800 years after him but because it is contemporary history we should not doubt it. No single witness and a history that came 2800 years later

History doesn’t require divine authority claims, but revelation does.
This is so true. But you don't seem to understand divine authority. The new testament records that Jesus Christ called 12 men and gave them authority. It also records that these men have authority to other men.
So the new testament shows a chain of divine authority. These men had the authority to represent Jesus Christ. There is no better way to give divine authority.

And without a non-circular way to verify revelation, you end up with circular reasoning. It’s true because it’s inspired, and inspired because it says so?
This is exactly how you verify most of ancient history.
Emperor Claudius last meal was a plate of wild mushrooms. You believe it because 2 guys Tacitus and Suetonius said so. You believe their authority and competency as ancient historians.
It seems like a double standard.