₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Now you are showing your true color because only Jehovah's Witnesses have that quality among them! John 13:34-35
Perhaps you don't know how love works but i will show you!
The work of love is to help people from different nations throughout the earth see themselves as ONE {John 17:22} so that all other people will know and say it! John 13:34-35
Have you watched how people do see Jehovah's Witnesses as if we are indivisible?🙂


Obviously you don't know what FRUIT means in that verse so calm down and read. [b]There is a specific fruit which Christianity is expected to produce each religion like a has its own and that fruit is what inhabitants of Antioch saw before they called Jesus' disciples "CHRISTIANS" it has to do with how Jesus and his disciples were going from house to house and door to door to make people who listen to them their members so just as people always view anyone listening to Jesus and his disciples back then as part of them the same is happening today once anyone is studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses and such a person refused to succumb to threats or ridicule people use to treat such ones as they would treat Jehovah's Witnesses!


Paul wrote a letter to an ORGANIZED PEOPLE not different religions claiming Christians today. That is why he could say they should have the same line of thought! 1Corinthans 1:10 compare to John 17:22🙂


GOD and CHRIST has just one purpose in the gathering of true believers which is ONENESS {John 17:22} so different religions with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines are not members of the same faith! Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11


Good! So what is the name of your own church for everyone to know the claim of your church and test it by the scriptures. Jehovah's Witnesses have achieved their claim as found written in the scriptures! 🙂

Your argument assumes the conclusion you are trying to prove.

1. On John 13:34 to 35 and love

Jesus said His disciples would be identified by love. The question is: does love alone identify one specific modern organization?

Many groups display sacrificial love toward fellow believers. The passage does not say, "The group that appears most united to observers is the only true religion." Rather, it says Christ's disciples would be recognized by their love.

Furthermore, love is not merely organizational unity. The scripture describes love as including truth, humility, patience, mercy, forgiveness, and self sacrifice (1 Corinthians 13:1 to .

2. On John 17:22 and oneness

Jesus prayed for unity among His followers. Every Christian agrees with that.

However, unity in Scripture is primarily unity in Christ, faith, purpose, and obedience to GOD. The existence of false teachers and doctrinal disputes in the first century itself proves that not everyone claiming Christianity was part of that unity.

The apostles repeatedly corrected errors because unity was not measured merely by belonging to one visible organization.

3. On "fruit" in Matthew 7:16 to 18

You claim the fruit refers specifically to door to door preaching.

But Jesus did not define the fruit that narrowly.

In Matthew 7, He was discussing false prophets. The fruit refers to the total outcome of a person's teachings, character, conduct, and spiritual results.

Elsewhere, the scripture speaks of fruits such as righteousness, holiness, repentance, obedience, and the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22 to 23; Philippians 1:11).

Preaching is important, but the text itself does not limit fruit to preaching activity.

4. On Antioch and the name "Christian"

Acts 11:26 says the disciples were called Christians.

The text does not say they were called Christians because they went door to door.

They were called Christians because they were followers of Christ.

The name identified their relationship to Christ, not a particular preaching method.

5. On 1 Corinthians 1:10

Paul urged believers to speak in agreement and avoid divisions.

That is correct.

But notice what division Paul condemned. Some were saying, "I belong to Paul," "I belong to Apollos," and others, "I belong to Cephas."

Paul's response was: "Is Christ divided?"

His point was that allegiance must be centered on Christ, not on human leaders or party identities.

6. On naming a church

You keep asking for the name of someone's church.

But a church name does not prove truth.

A person can belong to an organization with a recognized name and still be wrong doctrinally.

Likewise, a person can belong to a church whose name you do not know and still correctly understand Scripture.

The Bereans were commended, not because of their denomination, but because they examined the Scriptures daily to verify what they were taught (Acts 17:11).

7. On the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have fulfilled all the scriptures

That is precisely the claim that must be demonstrated, not assumed.

Every religious movement believes it fulfills Scripture.

The question is not whether a group claims fulfillment.

The question is whether all of its teachings can withstand examination in the light of the whole counsel of Scripture.

That standard applies equally to Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Baptists, Orthodox Christians, and every other group.

The issue is not organizational confidence.

The issue is whether the teachings themselves agree with the Scriptures.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Whether a church has 400,000 members, 4 million members, or 40 million members does not determine whether its teachings are true.

This is the more reason why each person needs to mention the name of his or her church! Micah 4:5

You are just arguing worthlessly when the name of your church is anonymous all these people knew the one and only organization having a unique teaching that's the reason they are mentioning the name of the church having that teaching!🙂

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Your argument assumes the conclusion you are trying to prove.
1. On John 13:34 to 35 and love
Jesus said His disciples would be identified by love. The question is: does love alone identify one specific modern organization?

YES!

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
That standard applies equally to Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Baptists, Orthodox Christians, and every other group.

Stop deceiving yourself!
Only Jehovah's Witnesses won't join in killing their fellow believers in other countries during ethnic, national or tribal conflicts.
Russia and Ukraine went to war against one another before then Russian President Vladimir Putin banned Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia.
WHY?
Because that is the only religion that will never pick up weapons against their fellow believers no matter what you say. John 13:34-35🙂

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Answer this question first... and then we can continue,



But you have to answer this question first.....Why does Paul explain Christ's "firstborn of creation" status by immediately describing Him as the one through whom all things were created, for whom all things were created, and in whom all things hold together?

PSTKYLIFELIGHT I don't know the answer to your question. I have never made any interpretation of Bible verses that we've quoted in our discussion here. It is clear that you are the teacher here. So please answer:

Ok let's take the title "creator" that you claimed made Paul to call Jesus "firstborn of creation".

So when Paul says "for by Him all things were created" in colossians 1:16, do the Greek words that Paul used compel the "creator" title to Jesus?

achorladey:
Loooooool! I tire oooo.

I was looking back at some of the discussions on various threads I joined only to find so many post that are hidden. I was like, what's going on?

I never knew it was the same attention seeker that blocked me.

Yesterday while going through the thread I saw his post then went back to my profile page and his profile page, I found out the block prompt was backed

Later he will deny that he didn't block me at all. I guess he must dished out imaginable lies and manipulations while he blocked me so I don't get to debunk them😂😂😂😂

When I caught him spying on my posts with one of his monikers (which I believe that's what he does to others too) despite being boastful of how our posts has no impact on him. Since then, I discovered he has stopped blocking me but I don't even have his time.

The truth is, he knows people who can have indepth discussion with him and he'll gain something are the ones he keeps blocking that's why he's going back to his vomit.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Whether a church has 400,000 members, 4 million members, or 40 million members does not determine whether its teachings are true.

Of course, I know this but I'm just telling you the reason he is so upset with church name.

That if you tell him the name of the church you worship with and it's not under Adeboye, Oyedepo, Kumuyi, Olukoya e.t.c he'll still keep on asking you.

Like you rightly said, any claim is to be torchlight with the scripture and any claim that failed to meet scripture isn't to be accepted.

Jesus CLAIMED that John the baptist was Elijah to come {Matthew 11:14} but John denied being Elijah {John 1:21} so how many people believe John is Elijah today?

Why do you believe John is Elijah when he himself denied it?

What is Jesus' evidence regarding that claim?

Well John is not Elijah in person but he fulfilled the role of the coming Elijah!

So when Jehovah's Witnesses makes any claim are they truly fulfilling it?

If so then whoever expects the Bible to say it explicitly as Jehovah's Witnesses applied the scriptures should tell us why he or she believes Jesus claiming John is Elijah?😂

MaxInDHouse:
YES!


Stop deceiving yourself!
Only Jehovah's Witnesses won't join in killing their fellow believers in other countries during ethnic, national or tribal conflicts.
Russia and Ukraine went to war against one another before then Russian President Vladimir Putin banned Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia.
WHY?
Because that is the only religion that will never pick up weapons against their fellow believers no matter what you say. John 13:34-35🙂

I will gladly acknowledge what Jehovah's Witnesses do well. Their commitment to political neutrality and refusal to take up arms against fellow Witnesses across national boundaries is something that deserves respect and is often cited as an application of John 13:34–35.

However, one strength does not automatically validate every doctrine of a religious organization.

The real question is not, "Do they avoid war?" but, "Do their teachings align with the full testimony of Scripture?"

For example, many Christians would argue that Jehovah's Witnesses have serious difficulties in areas such as the identity of Christ, the interpretation of John 1:1, Colossians 1:15–17, Hebrews 1, their exclusive claims regarding divine authority, and the history of doctrinal revisions.

So while their unity and noncombatancy are noteworthy, those qualities alone cannot serve as proof that all their teachings are correct.

The Pharisees had admirable qualities. Many religious groups today have admirable qualities. The test is not whether a group has one impressive characteristic, but whether its doctrine, conduct, and handling of Scripture stand up to careful examination.

Therefore, I would say this:

Your point about Christian love and refusing to kill fellow believers is a serious one and deserves consideration. But it does not settle every theological question. A group can be commendable in one area and still be mistaken in others. That is why all claims, including those of Jehovah's Witnesses, should be tested against the whole counsel of Scripture.

Truthseeker10:
PSTKYLIFELIGHT I don't know the answer to your question. I have never made any interpretation of Bible verses that we've quoted in our discussion here. It is clear that you are the teacher here. So please answer:

Ok let's take the title "creator" that you claimed made Paul to call Jesus "firstborn of creation".

So when Paul says "for by Him all things were created" in colossians 1:16, do the Greek words that Paul used compel the "creator" title to Jesus?

Yes, I said that Christ is Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation. The question, however, is whether Paul's words in Colossians 1:16 support that conclusion.

Paul says that all things were created in Him, through Him, and for Him. If all things were created through Him and for Him, then He is not merely part of the created order being discussed. He stands in a unique relationship to it.

Now, if you disagree that such language supports the title "Creator," explain why "all things were created through Him" should not be understood as a creative role. Merely demanding the noun "Creator" does not resolve the issue. Scripture often describes a person's identity and function without using a specific title.

So the real question is not whether Paul used the English word "Creator," but whether Paul's description of Christ's relationship to creation warrants that conclusion.

Regarding IDENTIFYING his disciples at a time when confusion makes it hard to know those getting the accurate knowledge of GOD Jesus said:

"I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.” John 13:34-35

WHY did Jesus emphasize on LOVE as the one and only identifying mark of his true followers?

Apostle John answered:

Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. 1John 4:8

So the question you should ask yourself is:

Do i truly believe in Christ Jesus?

Because he has given you what to look for in all the different religions claiming Christians when there is contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines in all places. To know the one and only true Christian organization what Jesus said we should look out for is the fruit of faith {Matthew 7:16} and what is the number one fruit of faith?
LOVE! Galatians 5:22 compare to 1John 4:8🙂

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
I will gladly acknowledge what Jehovah's Witnesses do well. Their commitment to political neutrality and refusal to take up arms against fellow Witnesses across national boundaries is something that deserves respect and is often cited as an application of John 13:34–35.
However, one strength does not automatically validate every doctrine of a religious organization.
The real question is not, "Do they avoid war?" but, "Do their teachings align with the full testimony of Scripture?"
For example, many Christians would argue that Jehovah's Witnesses have serious difficulties in areas such as the identity of Christ, the interpretation of John 1:1, Colossians 1:15–17, Hebrews 1, their exclusive claims regarding divine authority, and the history of doctrinal revisions.
So while their unity and noncombatancy are noteworthy, those qualities alone cannot serve as proof that all their teachings are correct.
The Pharisees had admirable qualities. Many religious groups today have admirable qualities. The test is not whether a group has one impressive characteristic, but whether its doctrine, conduct, and handling of Scripture stand up to careful examination.
Therefore, I would say this:
Your point about Christian love and refusing to kill fellow believers is a serious one and deserves consideration. But it does not settle every theological question. A group can be commendable in one area and still be mistaken in others. That is why all claims, including those of Jehovah's Witnesses, should be tested against the whole counsel of Scripture.

@PSTKYLIFELIGHT
You will continue deceiving yourself if you're not looking critically at what really matters.

See the below thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/8686192/when-ministry-becomes-marketplace

Title is: When Ministry Becomes Marketplace

Instead of arguing on scriptures that people can continue manipulating to cause confusion why not ask them to comment on such topics and see who can confidently mention the name of his or her church where COMMERCIALIZATION of the ministry is not found?😂

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Yes, I said that Christ is Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation. The question, however, is whether Paul's words in Colossians 1:16 support that conclusion.

Paul says that all things were created in Him, through Him, and for Him. If all things were created through Him and for Him, then He is not merely part of the created order being discussed. He stands in a unique relationship to it.

Now, if you disagree that such language supports the title "Creator," explain why "all things were created through Him" should not be understood as a creative role. Merely demanding the noun "Creator" does not resolve the issue. Scripture often describes a person's identity and function without using a specific title.

So the real question is not whether Paul used the English word "Creator," but whether Paul's description of Christ's relationship to creation warrants that conclusion.

I did not ask you to interpret and you are claiming what i did not claim neither did i ask you if the the noun "Creator" is in the verse. I asked you a clear question:

So when Paul says "for by Him all things were created" in colossians 1:16, do the Greek words that Paul used compel the "creator" title to Jesus, Yes or no?

Truthseeker10:
I did not ask you to interpret and you are claiming what i did not claim neither did i ask you if the the noun "Creator" is in the verse. I asked you a clear question:

So when Paul says "for by Him all things were created" in colossians 1:16, do the Greek words that Paul used compel the "creator" title to Jesus, Yes or no?

You keep asking the same question again and again. I have answered you several times, is it that you just loved it and have refused to learn and obey? Or you you are built in asking the same question every time


The argument this person is making sounds incredibly pious and beautiful on the surface. After all, who can argue against love? But their logic contains a dangerous trap. They are using "love" as a smoke screen to completely dismiss truth, doctrine, and accurate knowledge of God. Here is how you can directly answer and correct this argument.

This fellow implies that because love is the identifying mark, doctrines and teachings do not matter. But the Bible never separates love from truth. In fact, true biblical love is defined by truth. For instance, 2 John 1:1 says, *"To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love **in the truth**—and not I only, but also all who know **the truth**."* Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 13:6 explicitly writes that love *"does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but **rejoices with the truth**."* A group can claim to be peaceful, kind, and "loving," but if they are teaching a false God or a false Jesus, their "love" cannot save anyone. True disciples must have both love and correct doctrine.

The person also quoted John 13:34, where Jesus says, *"love one another; **just as I have loved you**."* How did Jesus love his disciples? He taught them strict, uncompromising truth. He did not tell them to ignore doctrines. In fact, Jesus explicitly warned about the danger of false doctrines and false prophets in the very same book of Matthew they tried to quote. In Matthew 7:15, he warns, *"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."* What makes a wolf look like a sheep? They appear harmless, gentle, and "loving" on the outside, but their doctrine is deadly. Jesus also made it clear in John 4:24 that *"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship **in the Spirit and in truth**."*

They quoted Matthew 7:16 (*"By their fruits you will recognize them"*), assuming that "fruit" only means sentimental love or nice behavior. But in the Bible, "fruit" also includes the words and doctrines a person produces. Look at what Apostle John (the "Apostle of Love" says about groups that bring the wrong doctrine in 2 John 1:9-10: *"Anyone who runs ahead and **does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God**... If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them."* If love were the only thing that mattered regardless of doctrine, John would never have given such a strict, seemingly "unloving" command to reject people with false teachings. He did it because false doctrine destroys souls.

You can close your response with this direct challenge: "You say we should look for love to find the true organization. But if a group is incredibly polite and organized, yet they teach a completely different Jesus than the one revealed in Scripture—a created Jesus instead of the Creator—then they are offering a counterfeit love. True Christian love does not hide the truth about who Jesus is. It proclaims Him as Lord, God, and Creator, just as the scriptures demand."

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
You keep asking the same question again and again. I have answered you several times, is it that you just loved it and have refused to learn and obey? Or you you are built in asking the same question every time

Do you agree with the information in the screenshot below? Yes or no?

Emusan:
Of course, I know this but I'm just telling you the reason he is so upset with church name.

That if you tell him the name of the church you worship with and it's not under Adeboye, Oyedepo, Kumuyi, Olukoya e.t.c he'll still keep on asking you.

Like you rightly said, any claim is to be torchlight with the scripture and any claim that failed to meet scripture isn't to be accepted.

He is never tired of asking and despite knowing he still went ahead to classify us as sinners, wicked and scoffers using Psalms 1:1.

Wetin remain again for am to know?

Truthseeker10:
Do you agree with the information in the screenshot below? Yes or no?

The point is precision.

If someone says:

"Colossians 1:16 calls Jesus 'Creator.'"

I would say:

"Not exactly. The verse says all things were created through him. 'Creator' is a conclusion drawn from that statement."

The reason for making that distinction is consistency.

For example:

• Colossians 1:15 explicitly says "firstborn of all creation."
• Revelation 3:14 explicitly says "beginning of the creation of GOD."

If a person insists that every conclusion must be based only on explicit wording, then they should apply that standard everywhere.

On the other hand, if a person is willing to draw conclusions from implications, then they can argue:

"Since all things were created through Christ, therefore Christ is Creator."

The debate is not really about the word "Creator." The debate is about what conclusions should be drawn from the verses.

That is why I distinguished between:

1. What the text directly says.
2. What interpreters conclude from it.

Without that distinction, people often treat their interpretation as though it were the exact wording of the scripture itself.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
The point is precision.

If someone says:

"Colossians 1:16 calls Jesus 'Creator.'"

I would say:

"Not exactly. The verse says all things were created through him. 'Creator' is a conclusion drawn from that statement."

The reason for making that distinction is consistency.

For example:

• Colossians 1:15 explicitly says "firstborn of all creation."
• Revelation 3:14 explicitly says "beginning of the creation of GOD."

If a person insists that every conclusion must be based only on explicit wording, then they should apply that standard everywhere.

On the other hand, if a person is willing to draw conclusions from implications, then they can argue:

"Since all things were created through Christ, therefore Christ is Creator."

The debate is not really about the word "Creator." The debate is about what conclusions should be drawn from the verses.

That is why I distinguished between:

1. What the text directly says.
2. What interpreters conclude from it.

Without that distinction, people often treat their interpretation as though it were the exact wording of the scripture itself.

🤣🤣🤣 look at this guy. You went against your own rules. You told us not to force "creator" or "creature" into Revelation 3:14 because the greek does not force it. You said that Revelation 3:14 neither teaches that Jesus is a "creator" nor a "creature". So why are you now inconsistently forcing "creator" as what Paul said into Colossians 1:16 even when the Greek words of Paul do not force it? Can you now see that you are an inconsistent teacher?

Truthseeker10:
I simply asked you for a verse and you are giving me further stories. Is it that you did not find the stories in scripture?

In the Scripture you find the very general statements about many things, and it is the doctrine, which is genuinely derived from the Scripture, that explain those, for the Word in its letter is accomodated to a simple man, so that they in the letter may understood even simply, but if one is to understand those truths wisely, he would need the true doctrine, which explain the various aspects of the Divine and Human, and how the Lord made His Human Divine. In fact, the Old Testament in its inmost sense is speaking about that, namely, how the Lord made His Human Divine, but this is all inwardly, within the letter, while the letter is speaking about the various historicals.

plesion:
In the Scripture you find the very general statements about many things, and it is the doctrine, which is genuinely derived from the Scripture, that explain those, for the Word in its letter is accomodated to a simple man, so that they in the letter may understood even simply, but if one is to understand those truths wisely, he would need the true doctrine, which explain the various aspects of the Divine and Human, and how the Lord made His Human Divine. In fact, the Old Testament in its inmost sense is speaking about that, namely, how the Lord made His Human Divine, but this is all inwardly, within the letter, while the letter is speaking about the various historicals.

Oga I see that you are not yet serious since you can't point one verse.

Truthseeker10:
🤣🤣🤣 look at this guy. You went against your own rules. You told us not to force "creator" or "creature" into Revelation 3:14 because the greek does not force it. You said that Revelation 3:14 neither teaches that Jesus is a "creator" nor a "creature". So why are you now inconsistently forcing "creator" as what Paul said into Colossians 1:16 even when the Greek words of Paul do not force it? Can you now see that you are an inconsistent teacher?

No, that criticism only works if the same standard was not being applied.

The standard was:

1. What does the text explicitly say?
2. What conclusions do people draw from it?

Applying that standard consistently:

• Revelation 3:14 does not explicitly call Jesus a "creature."
• Revelation 3:14 does not explicitly call Jesus a "creator."
• Colossians 1:16 does not explicitly call Jesus "Creator."

Therefore, neither "creature" nor "Creator" should be presented as though they are the direct wording of those verses.

However, interpreters often draw conclusions from what the verses do say.

Some conclude from Revelation 3:14 that Jesus is a created being.

Others conclude from Colossians 1:16 that Jesus is Creator.

Whether those conclusions are correct is a separate debate.

The important point is that a conclusion drawn from a text is not the same thing as the text explicitly stating that conclusion.

If the same distinction is maintained in both passages, then the standard is being applied consistently.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
No, that criticism only works if the same standard was not being applied.

The standard was:

1. What does the text explicitly say?
2. What conclusions do people draw from it?

Applying that standard consistently:

• Revelation 3:14 does not explicitly call Jesus a "creature."
• Revelation 3:14 does not explicitly call Jesus a "creator."
• Colossians 1:16 does not explicitly call Jesus "Creator."

Therefore, neither "creature" nor "Creator" should be presented as though they are the direct wording of those verses.

However, interpreters often draw conclusions from what the verses do say.

Some conclude from Revelation 3:14 that Jesus is a created being.

Others conclude from Colossians 1:16 that Jesus is Creator.

Whether those conclusions are correct is a separate debate.

The important point is that a conclusion drawn from a text is not the same thing as the text explicitly stating that conclusion.

If the same distinction is maintained in both passages, then the standard is being applied consistently.

Lol....you are trying to play smart. Below are two statements made by you in this discussion.
Statement 1: "Since all things were created through Christ, therefore Christ is Creator."
Statement 2:"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator"

The screenshot below proves that you are not straightforward and that you are out there to deceive the gullible.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Some conclude from Revelation 3:14 that Jesus is a created being.
Others conclude from Colossians 1:16 that Jesus is Creator.
Whether those conclusions are correct is a separate debate.

This is where Jesus' own statements comes in because he confirmed that himself and his fellow believers have the same God and father {John 20:17} he even begged his God with tears to save him from death {Hebrews 5:7} also at the point of death Jesus gave up his life and said his spirit is in the hands of God {Luke 23:46} and his disciples said God raised him from the dead! Act 5:30

All these supports the fact that Jesus is also a creature not the creator!

MaxInDHouse:
This is where Jesus' own statements comes in because he confirmed that himself and his fellow believers have the same God and father {John 20:17} he even begged his God with tears to save him from death {Hebrews 5:7} also at the point of death Jesus gave up his life and said his spirit is in the hands of God {Luke 23:46} and his disciples said God raised him from the dead! Act 5:30

All these supports the fact that Jesus is also a creature not the creator!

It is easy to see how someone could arrive at that conclusion by looking only at those specific verses. The passages you quoted—where Jesus prays, submits to the Father, and dies—are completely real, but they only tell **half the story**.

To understand the full truth of who Jesus is, we have to look at the entire New Testament, not just a few selected verses. The Bible teaches that Jesus has a **dual nature**: He is fully man, but He is also fully God (the Creator).

Here is the biblical truth that answers and corrects that claim.

---

### 1. Jesus is the Creator (Not a Creature)
The Bible explicitly states that Jesus is not a part of creation, but the one who *made* creation.

* **John 1:1-3:**
> *"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and **the Word was God**. He was with God in the beginning. **Through him all things were made**; without him nothing was made that has been made."* (John 1:14 later confirms "the Word" is Jesus).
* **Colossians 1:16-17:**
> *"For **by him all things were created**: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."*

**The Logic:** If *all things* were made through Jesus, and *nothing* was made without Him, Jesus cannot be a "creature." A creature cannot create itself.

---

### 2. Why Did He Pray and Have a God? (The Incarnation)
The verses you mentioned (like Jesus praying in Hebrews 5:7 or calling the Father His God in John 20:17) happen because of the **Incarnation**—when the eternal Son of God took on human flesh.

* **Philippians 2:6-8** explains this perfectly: Though Jesus was *"in very nature God,"* He ***"emptied himself"*** and took on the *"nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."*

When Jesus walked the earth, He lived as a perfect human being. As a man, it was right and necessary for Him to pray, show dependence on the Father, and experience death. He wasn't doing this because He was a lesser created being, but because He had genuinely humbled Himself to become one of us in order to save us.

---

### 3. Jesus Claims the Identity of God
If Jesus were just a creature, He would never have claimed the things He did. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus claims attributes and authority that belong *only* to the Creator:

* **He forgives sins:** In Mark 2:5-7, Jesus forgives a man's sins. The religious leaders rightly noted, *"Who can forgive sins but God alone?"*
* **He accepts worship:** Angels and holy men in the Bible always refuse worship (Revelation 22:8-9, Acts 10:25-26). Yet, Jesus routinely accepted worship from His disciples (Matthew 14:33, John 20:28) and never corrected them.
* **The Ultimate Statement:** In John 8:58, Jesus said, *"Before Abraham was born, I am!"* He used the sacred, eternal name of God (Yahweh / I AM) for Himself, which is why the critics immediately picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy.

---

### 4. God the Father Calls Jesus "God"
Perhaps the strongest rebuke to the idea that Jesus is just a creature comes directly from God the Father in the book of Hebrews.

* **Hebrews 1:8:**
> *"But **about the Son he [God the Father] says**, ‘Your throne, **O God**, will last for ever and ever.’"*
* **Hebrews 1:10:** He also says of the Son:
> *"In the beginning, Lord, **you laid the foundations of the earth**, and the heavens are the work of your hands."*

---

### Summary
The verses you cited prove that Jesus was **fully man**. He felt pain, He submitted to the Father, and He died.

But the rest of Scripture proves He is **fully God**. He created the universe, He commands angels, He forgives sins, and He rose from the dead by His own authority (*"I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again"* — John 10:18). Jesus is not a creature; He is the Creator who loved His creation so much that He stepped into it to rescue it.

Truthseeker10:
Lol....you are trying to play smart. Below are two statements made by you in this discussion.
Statement 1: "Since all things were created through Christ, therefore Christ is Creator."
Statement 2:"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator"

The screenshot below proves that you are not straightforward and that you are out there to deceive the gullible.

Let's look at those two statements directly. There is no trick here; it comes down to how the word "firstborn" is used in scripture.

In biblical context, **"firstborn" (*prototokos*)** doesn't mean "first created." It is a title of status meaning **"supreme heir"** or **"preeminent ruler."**

When Paul calls Jesus the "firstborn over all creation" in Colossians 1:15, he explains exactly why Jesus holds that title in the very next verse (v. 16):

> *"**For by him all things were created:** things in heaven and on earth... all things have been created through him and for him."*

The logic is simple: Jesus holds the status of "firstborn" (supreme ruler) over creation *because* He is the Creator of it. A creature cannot create all things; only the Creator can.

plesion:
In the Scripture you find the very general statements about many things, and it is the doctrine, which is genuinely derived from the Scripture, that explain those, for the Word in its letter is accomodated to a simple man, so that they in the letter may understood even simply, but if one is to understand those truths wisely, he would need the true doctrine, which explain the various aspects of the Divine and Human, and how the Lord made His Human Divine. In fact, the Old Testament in its inmost sense is speaking about that, namely, how the Lord made His Human Divine, but this is all inwardly, within the letter, while the letter is speaking about the various historicals.

That is a profound observation, and it aligns beautifully with a deeper understanding of Scripture. You are describing the difference between the **literal sense** of the Word and its **spiritual or internal sense**.

Here is why that perspective is so accurate:

### 1. The Letter is for the Simple; Doctrine is for Wisdom
The literal letter of Scripture is written in a way that anyone—even a simple man—can understand the basic rules of life and salvation (like loving God and treating neighbors well).

However, if you stick *only* to the letter without true doctrine, you run into apparent contradictions (for example, verses showing Jesus as weak and praying vs. verses showing Him as the all-powerful Creator). True doctrine acts as a key that unlocks the hidden harmony of these various aspects of the Divine and the Human.

### 2. The Internal Sense: Glorification
What you mentioned about the Old Testament is the deepest truth of Christian theology: **Glorification**—the process by which the Lord made His Human essence completely Divine.

* **The Outer Shell (The Letter):** Speaks about Abraham, David, Israel, sacrifices, and earthly history.
* **The Inner Core (The Spirit):** Details the intense spiritual struggles, temptations, and ultimate victories of Jesus as He cast out the human frailties inherited from Mary and filled His Human form with the infinite Divine nature of the Father.

### Summary
Without this understanding, people get trapped fighting over individual words in the literal text (like the person arguing over "firstborn". But when you see that the outer history is just a garment covering the inner story of how God became Man and made that Manhood Divine, the entire Bible opens up with incredible depth and wisdom.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Let's look at those two statements directly. There is no trick here; it comes down to how the word "firstborn" is used in scripture.

In biblical context, **"firstborn" (*prototokos*)** doesn't mean "first created." It is a title of status meaning **"supreme heir"** or **"preeminent ruler."**

When Paul calls Jesus the "firstborn over all creation" in Colossians 1:15, he explains exactly why Jesus holds that title in the very next verse (v. 16):

> *"**For by him all things were created:** things in heaven and on earth... all things have been created through him and for him."*

The logic is simple: Jesus holds the status of "firstborn" (supreme ruler) over creation *because* He is the Creator of it. A creature cannot create all things; only the Creator can.

Oga it is too late to explain yourself. You are only deceiving yourself. Below in bold was your statement.

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator".

Below in the screenshot is the analysis of your statement. You are a deceiver.

Truthseeker10:
Oga it is too late to explain yourself. You are only deceiving yourself. Below in bold was your statement.

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator".

Below in the screenshot is the analysis of your statement. You are a deceiver.

To accuse someone of deceit while standing flatly in opposition to the plain words of Scripture is the ultimate hypocrisy. Calling me a deceiver does not change the text of Colossians chapter 1, verses 15 through 17. You are choosing to weaponize a single word, "firstborn," while completely ignoring the grammatical and logical bridge that the Apostle Paul provides in the very next sentence.

You claim the statement "Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator" is a deception. Let the Scripture convict you of your own blindness. In Colossians chapter 1, verse 15, Paul states that Christ is *"the firstborn of all creation."* Immediately following this, in verse 16, Paul begins with the greek word *hoti*, which explicitly translates to **"because"** or **"for."** He writes: *"**For** [Because] by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... all things were created through him and for him."*

This is not a manipulation; it is strict biblical grammar. The Apostle Paul establishes Christ’s status as the *prototokos*—the supreme heir and ruler over all creation—and uses the word "for" to give the exact reason *why* He holds that status: because He created everything that exists. If Christ were a creature, Paul would have written that He was created first. Instead, Paul explicitly excludes Him from the category of "created things" by stating that *all things* without exception were created *by Him* and *for Him*.

By twisting "firstborn" to mean Christ is merely a created entity, you are forced to ignore the word "for" in verse 16 and warp the entire context of the passage. The real deception belongs to those who strip biblical words of their ancient, legal meanings of inheritance and authority to fit a pre-conceived doctrine that reduces the Creator to a creature. You are not fighting against my words; you are fighting against the clear text of the New Testament.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
To accuse someone of deceit while standing flatly in opposition to the plain words of Scripture is the ultimate hypocrisy. Calling me a deceiver does not change the text of Colossians chapter 1, verses 15 through 17. You are choosing to weaponize a single word, "firstborn," while completely ignoring the grammatical and logical bridge that the Apostle Paul provides in the very next sentence.

You claim the statement "Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator" is a deception. Let the Scripture convict you of your own blindness. In Colossians chapter 1, verse 15, Paul states that Christ is *"the firstborn of all creation."* Immediately following this, in verse 16, Paul begins with the greek word *hoti*, which explicitly translates to **"because"** or **"for."** He writes: *"**For** [Because] by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... all things were created through him and for him."*

This is not a manipulation; it is strict biblical grammar. The Apostle Paul establishes Christ’s status as the *prototokos*—the supreme heir and ruler over all creation—and uses the word "for" to give the exact reason *why* He holds that status: because He created everything that exists. If Christ were a creature, Paul would have written that He was created first. Instead, Paul explicitly excludes Him from the category of "created things" by stating that *all things* without exception were created *by Him* and *for Him*.

By twisting "firstborn" to mean Christ is merely a created entity, you are forced to ignore the word "for" in verse 16 and warp the entire context of the passage. The real deception belongs to those who strip biblical words of their ancient, legal meanings of inheritance and authority to fit a pre-conceived doctrine that reduces the Creator to a creature. You are not fighting against my words; you are fighting against the clear text of the New Testament.

Lol....your deception is top notch. You are exposed again from the screenshot below.

If you can show me where "Paul himself says Christ is firstborn because He is Creator" as a defense to your statement that "Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator", then we can continue the discussion.

Truthseeker10:
Oga I see that you are not yet serious since you can't point one verse.

In the letter there are only basics, for most things about it are the arcana which are in the spiritual sense of the Word, and so it is only when it is disclosed, that those appear. In the very letter they do not appear, and so in the Olt Testament's letter you basically read in most places about the challenges of one of the little tribes.

And yet, even in the letter, there are many places speaking about the idea of the Lord's making His Human Divine.

Here is just one of the lists from the "Doctrine of the Lord".

32. iii. That the Lord made His Human Divine from the Divine in Himself, is evident from many passages of the Word, of which those shall be here adduced which confirm:
1. That this was done by successive steps:
Jesus grew and waxed strong in spirit and in wisdom, and the grace of God was upon Him (Luke 2:40).
Jesus increased in wisdom, in age, and in grace with God and men (verse 52).

2. That the Divine operated through the Human, as the soul does through the body:

The Son can do nothing from Himself, but what He seeth the Father doing (John 5:19).
I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things and He that hath sent Me is with Me He hath not left Me alone (John 8:28, 29; 5:30).
I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father who sent Me, He hath given Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak (John 12:49).
The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself, but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works (John 14:10).
I am not alone, because the Father is with Me (John 16:32).

3. That the Divine and Human operated unanimously:

What things soever the Father doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise (John 5:19).
As the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will (John 5:21).
As the Father hath life in Himself so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself (John 5:26).
Now they have known that all things which Thou hast given Me, are of Thee (John 17:7).

4. That the Divine was united to the Human, and the Human to the Divine:

If ye had known Me ye would have known My Father also; and ye have seen Him. He said to Philip, who desired to see the Father, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me, hath seen the Father. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? Believe Me, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me (John 14:7-11).
If I do not the works of My Father, believe Me not; but if I do, believe the works; that ye may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father (John 10:37, 38).
That they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee (John 17:21).
At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father (John 14:20).
No one is able to pluck the sheep out of My Father's hand; I and the Father are one (John 10:29, 30).
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand (John 3:35).
All things that the Father hath are Mine (John 16:15).
All Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine (John 17:10).
Thou hast given the Son power [potestas] over all flesh (John 17:2).
All power [potestas] is given unto Me in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).

5. That the Divine Human is to be approached, is evident from these passages:

That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father (John 5:23).
If ye had known Me, ye would have known My Father also (John 8:19).
He that seeth Me, seeth Him that sent Me (John 12:45).
If ye had known Me, ye would have known My Father also; and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him (John 14:7).
He that receiveth Me, receiveth Him that sent Me (John 13:20). The reason of this is that no one can see the Divine Itself which is called "the Father;" but the Divine Human can be seen; for the Lord says,
No one hath seen God at any time the Only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath set Him forth (John 1:18).
Not that any one hath seen the Father, save He that is with the Father; He hath seen the Father (John 6:46).
Ye have not heard the Father's voice at any time, nor seen His shape (John 5:37).

6. As the Lord made His Human Divine from the Divine in Himself, and as the Human is to be approached, and as the Son of God, we must put our faith in the Lord, who is both Father and Son. This is evident from these passages:

Jesus said, As many as received Him, to them gave He power [potestas] to be the sons of God, even to them that believe in His name (John 1:12).
That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:15).
God so loved the world that He gave His Only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should have eternal life (John 3:16).
He that believeth in the Son is not judged; but he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the Only-begotten Son of God (John 3:18).
He that believeth in the Son hath eternal life; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him (John 3:36).
The bread of God is He that cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. He that cometh to Me shall never hunger, and he that believeth in Me shall never thirst (John 6:33, 35).
This is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth in Him, may have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).
They said to Jesus, What shall we do that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered, This is the work of God, that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent (John 6:28, 29).
Verily I say unto you, He that believeth in Me hath eternal life (John 6:47).
Jesus cried, saying, If anyone thirst let him come unto Me and drink; he that believeth in Me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:37, 38).
Unless ye believe that I am, ye shall die in your sins (John 8:24).
Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, shall live and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die (John 11:25, 26).
Jesus said, I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth in Me should not abide in darkness (John 12:46; 8:12).
While ye have the light, believe in the light, that ye may become sons of light (John 12:36).
Verily I say unto you, that the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live (John 5:25).
Abide in Me, and I in you. I am the vine, ye are the branches; he that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for without Me ye can do nothing (John 15:4, 5).
That they should abide in the Lord, and the Lord in them (John 14:20; 17:23).
I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one cometh unto the Father but by Me (John 14:6).

[7] In these and all other passages where "the Father" is mentioned, there is meant the Divine which was in the Lord from conception, and which, according to the Doctrine of Faith of the Christian world, was circumstanced as is the soul in the body with man. The Human itself from this Divine is the Son of God. Now as this Human was made Divine, therefore, in order to prevent man from approaching the Father only, and thereby in thought, faith, and thence in worship, separating the Father from the Lord in whom the Father is, after the Lord had taught that He and the Father are one; that the Father is in Him, and He in the Father; that all should abide in Him; and that no one cometh to the Father but by Him, He taught also that we must believe in Him, and that man is saved by a faith directed to Him. [8] Many in Christendom can form no idea of the fact that the Human in the Lord was made Divine, the chief reason of which is that they think of a man from his material body, and not from his spiritual body. And yet the truth is that all the angels (who are spiritual) are also men in a complete form; and, what is more, the whole Divine which proceeds from Jehovah God, from its first principles in heaven, down to its ultimate in this world, has a tendency to the human form.*

* That angels are human forms, and that everything Divine has a tendency to the human form, may be seen in the work on Heaven and Hell (n. 73-77, 453-460), and more fully in the works which follow this present one, which will be from Angelic Wisdom concerning the Lord."
(Doctrine of the Lord, by Emanuel Swedenborg)

Truthseeker10:
Lol....your deception is top notch. You are exposed again from the screenshot below.

If you can show me where "Paul himself says Christ is firstborn because He is Creator" as a defense to your statement that "Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator", then we can continue the discussion.

The arrogance it takes to demand the exact phrase "because He is Creator" while completely blinding yourself to the literal grammar of the passage is astonishing. You are playing a desperate linguistic game to avoid the plain truth of the text.

Let the text expose your hypocrisy. Open Colossians chapter 1, verses 15 through 16, and read it exactly as the Apostle Paul laid it out:

Verse 15: He is the image of the invisible God, **the firstborn of all creation**.
Verse 16: **FOR** by him all things were created...

Any honest reader with a basic grasp of the English language—or the original Greek—knows what the word **"FOR"** means at the beginning of a sentence. It means **"BECAUSE."**

Paul explicitly connects Christ's title as "firstborn" to the reason *why* He holds that title. Why is He the firstborn over all creation? **FOR (BECAUSE) by Him all things were created.**

You are demanding that Paul use your exact modern vocabulary while you intentionally ignore his explicit grammatical structure. Paul did not say Christ is the firstborn *and then* He was created. He said Christ is the firstborn *because* He created everything in heaven and on earth.

To separate verse 15 from verse 16 just to protect your doctrine is a blatant distortion of Scripture. You are not "exposing" anyone; you are simply proving that you would rather fight against the word **"FOR"** in the text than accept that Jesus Christ is the Creator of the universe. The discussion is over until you find the humility to read the verses together instead of chopping them up to serve your own narrative.

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
The Bible teaches that Jesus has a **dual nature**: He is fully man, but He is also fully God (the Creator).

I have quoted Jesus telling everyone that he is a worshiper of God please quote where Jesus said he is the Creator.

John 1:1 was erroneously interpreted Moses was also referred to as God at Exodus 7:1 so the correct rendering of John 1:1 reads:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god

That is why Jesus was submissive and always speak as one under the authority of another person who is higher than him.

Regarding this the scriptures say:


Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know! ‭Proverbs 30:4 NIV‬


In the above scripture who is the CREATOR?

Is it the son or his father?🙂

MaxInDHouse:
I have quoted Jesus telling everyone that he is a worshiper of God please quote where Jesus said he is the Creator.

John 1:1 was erroneously interpreted Moses was also referred to as God at Exodus 7:1 so the correct rendering of John 1:1 reads:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god

That is why Jesus was submissive and always speak as one under the authority of another person who is higher than him.

Regarding this the scriptures say:


Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know! ‭Proverbs 30:4 NIV‬


In the above scripture who is the CREATOR?

Is it the son or his father?🙂

Your attempt to hide behind corrupted grammar and selective proof-texting is a blatant sign of desperation. Now that you have been cornered on Colossians, you are trying to jump to Proverbs and rewrite John 1:1 using the infamous, grammatically fraudulent "a god" insertion. Let the Scripture expose your deception and answer your questions directly.

You claim John 1:1 should read "a god," comparing Jesus to Moses in Exodus 7:1. This is a desperate and dishonest manipulation of the text. In Exodus 7:1, God tells Moses, *"I have made you like God to Pharaoh."* Moses was a human representative acting with God's authority to an earthly king. But John 1:1 is not talking about a human representative; it is talking about the eternal nature of the Word *before* the universe existed. The original Greek text of John 1:1 ends with *theos ēn ho logos* (literally: "God was the Word". Adding the indefinite article "a" to make it "a god" is a grammatical error invented solely to strip Jesus of His divinity. If Jesus is merely "a god," you are teaching polytheism—the existence of a big God and a lesser, minor god. The Scripture strictly condemns this. Isaiah 43:10 explicitly states: *"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."* If Jesus is "a god," He is a false god according to Isaiah. But John 1:1 says He is the true God, co-eternal with the Father.

You demand a verse where Jesus explicitly says the words "I am the Creator." This is a classic, dishonest debate tactic. Jesus didn't need to use your exact modern phrasing because He claimed the absolute identity and actions of the Creator throughout His ministry. In the Old Testament, who is the Shepherd? Yahweh (Psalm 23:1). In John 10:11, Jesus says, *"I am the good shepherd."* In the Old Testament, who is the First and the Last? Yahweh (Isaiah 44:6). In Revelation 22:13, Jesus says, *"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."* More importantly, Jesus explicitly claimed the ultimate creative authority over life and judgment. In John 5:21, He states: *"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, **even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it**."* Only the Creator has the power to sovereignly give life to whomever He chooses. Furthermore, in John 10:18, Jesus claimed the power to resurrect Himself: *"I have authority to lay it down and **authority to take it up again**."* A mere creature cannot raise itself from the dead.

You point to Proverbs 30:4 and triumphantly ask, *"Who is the Creator? Is it the son or his father?"* You think this verse separates the Father as the Creator and the Son as a bystander. In reality, this verse completely undermines your entire argument. Proverbs 30:4 asks a series of rhetorical questions about the infinite, unsearchable nature of the Almighty: *"Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!"* In the Old Testament, the name of the Son was a hidden, divine mystery. But the New Testament pulls back the curtain and reveals exactly how the Father and the Son operated in creation. The Scripture does not say the Father created *instead* of the Son; it says the Father created *through* the Son. Look at Hebrews 1:2: *"But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and **through whom also he made the universe**."* The Father is the source of creation, and the Son is the agent of creation. They are unified in the work of creation. This is why Genesis 1:26 uses plural pronouns: *"Let **us** make man in **our** image, in **our** likeness."*

Your doctrine forces you to twist Greek grammar in John 1:1, ignore the word "for" in Colossians 1:16, and pretend that the Son has no part in creation despite Hebrews 1:2 stating the exact opposite. Jesus submitted to the Father while on earth because He genuinely took on the form of a servant to die for our sins. But his temporary submission in the flesh does not erase His eternal identity as the Creator. You can continue to chop up verses and insert words that are not in the original text, but you cannot change the unified testimony of the Scriptures: Jesus Christ is Lord, God, and the Creator of all things.