₦airaland Forum

HeatSeeker:
They were all dead by the time Paul's letters were up for consideration as "divinely inspired scripture." Paul was not the only one who wrote letters. Others did. But very few survived or was preserved till modern times.

By the time of Constantine, the authorship of many of the letters floating around was in question and a council needed to be form to select the most credible writings that will form the basis of modern day Christianity.

AntiChristian:
So of what bases did 13 of Paul's letter became the Christians' scripture yet the total of all the other 12 disciples that rolled with Jesus on earth couldn't match him in writting?

AntiChristian:
Paul's letters viz:

Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus and
Philemon were written after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, primarily to early Christian communities.

Do all the 12 disciples (with Mathias as the 12th disciple) accept them as scriptures?

Kukutente23:
Peter who was chief among the disciples endorsed Paul's letters. Go and do your research and stop foaming at the mouth unnecessarily

HeatSeeker:
➜Not all of the original twelve were educated e.g. Peter was just a fisherman. Paul was highly educated (a lawyer) and a Roman citizen. This made him an ideal candidate for the job.

Kukutente23:
➜Peter who was chief among the disciples endorsed Paul's letters. Go and do your research and stop foaming at the mouth unnecessarily

Kobojunkie:
There is something very wrong with this assumption. You assume Peter's comments regarding the letters of Paul point to the very same set of letters we have access to today. 😒😒

Kukutente23:
➜Ok... so what letters do they point to specifically

14 Dear friends, we are waiting for this to happen. So try as hard as you can to be without sin and without fault. Try to be at peace with God.
15 Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient. Our dear brother Paul told you that same thing when he wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 That’s what he says in all his letters when he writes about these things. There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give a wrong meaning to them. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that. - 2nd Peter 3 vs 14 - 16

Kobojunkie:
From what Peter said, we know that the reference is specifically to Paul's letters, which contain the particular details of the subject he touched on.

Kobojunkie:
This is false! Peter may have been a fisherman, but we have no way of knowing whether he was illiterate.😒

AntiChristian:
Paul's letters viz:

Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus and
Philemon were written after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, primarily to early Christian communities.

Do all the 12 disciples (with Mathias as the 12th disciple) accept them as scriptures?

HeatSeeker:
They were all dead by the time Paul's letters were up for consideration as "divinely inspired scripture." Paul was not the only one who wrote letters. Others did. But very few survived or was preserved till modern times.

By the time of Constantine, the authorship of many of the letters floating around was in question and a council needed to be formed to select the most credible writings that will form the basis of modern day Christianity.

HeatSeeker:
They were all dead by the time Paul's letters were up for consideration as "divinely inspired scripture." Paul was not the only one who wrote letters. Others did. But very few survived or was preserved till modern times.

By the time of Constantine, the authorship of many of the letters floating around was in question and a council needed to be formed to select the most credible writings that will form the basis of modern day Christianity.

Kobojunkie:
This is false! Peter may have been a fisherman, but we have no way of knowing whether he was illiterate.😒

MightySparrow:
This fella doesn't need any explanation. He should go and learn his Quran first. Peters' reference to the letters of Paul is evident that the disciples knew about and approved of his teachings.

Galatians 1:15-20
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

2Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

MS Baba is waiting for AntiChristian on his platform. If he has any knowledge of his Lieslam, he should go there and let us see how he would tackle the online Sheikhs there.

MightySparrow:
You have not understood your Quran and hadiths well you are dabbling into the Bible. Go and ask Allah in Mecca.

Kukutente23:
Peter who was chief among the disciples endorsed Paul's letters. Go and do your research and stop foaming at the mouth unnecessarily

AntiChristian:
Quote 1 Peter 1:1 and let's see who Peter was writing to.

Kukutente23:
And what's the significance of that

AntiChristian:
Even Peter's book has its audience. What defines scripture? Did Peter say Paul's letters were scripture?

HeatSeeker:
➜ At the time he became a disciple he was most likely uneducated or at best a functional illiterate (but obviously later acquired some literacy skills).
➜ This is evident in his writing of the two bible books ascribed to him. The original greek version was not the polished type the elites used at the time period. Unlike Paul who wrote and spoke the language of the elites.

Kukutente23:
➜And where does it say the letters being referenced are not the specific letters we have today.
➜ If you can read well you will see that he summarily compared Paul's letters with the established scriptures.
➜ That's the poser the Islamic Op manufactured in his mind. Meanwhile he forgets that his Qur'an summarily endorses the Bible while there's no scripture that endorses his Qur'an. In other words, his Qur'an seeks legitimacy from the Bible. Even some of the concepts in the Qur'an are stolen from Paul's letters.
➜There's no difference between the Qur'an and Joseph Smith's Book of Doctrine and Covenant

Kobojunkie:
1. If you abandon assumptions and read carefully the words of Peter, where he supposedly expressed this support you assumed of Paul, you find that Peter was specific about the content of the letters for which he expressed support. 😒😒

2. Peter(he) never did any of that. Go back and reread what Peter said. 😒

3. We all know the Quran is..., but when it comes to the claim you made regarding Peter's support of Paul, Peter never gave blank support to Paul. 😒

4. No debate there! 😒

Kukutente23:
➜ Let me reproduce Peter's words so you can read for yourself:
15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
➜ As you can clearly see with the words in red, Peter referred to all of Paul's epistles in his endorsement and not only that the purple words show that he equated them with scriptures

14 Dear friends, we are waiting for this to happen. So try as hard as you can to be without sin and without fault. Try to be at peace with God.
15 Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient. Our dear brother Paul told you that same thing when he wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 That’s what he says in all his letters when he writes about these things. There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give a wrong meaning to them. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that. - 2nd Peter 3 vs 14 - 16

Kobojunkie:
1. Verse 15 references the aspects of all of Paul's letters which point to salvation being the result of the longsuffering of the Lord, the "these things" specified in Verse 16. Do all aspects of all of Paul's letters reference this very exact thought? The simple answer is no! Almost all of Paul's letters also contain Paul's private opinions on issues. 😒

2. The statement you highlighted in red is heavily dependent on the portion that comes before it. Again, Peter instead referred to all the parts of Paul's letters that reference Salvation as being a result of the longsuffering of the Lord. First of all, not all of Paul's letters that we have today address that very issue, and second, not all parts of the letters we have today focus on that very issue. 😒


3. The purple part is not regarding Paul but the actions of untaught and unstable people.... they are the ones accused of twisting Scriptures to their own destruction in that passage.😒

Kukutente23:
1. I don't get. Are you saying there are aspects of Paul's Epistles that are not centered on the work of salvation or under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Can you share such examples pls
4. The purple part clearly says what is happening to Paul's letters have actually happened to all the other Scriptures
The word other in that context is an equity word. It directly implies that the letters of Paul be seen as part of the Scriptures. It's a very simple explanation that I don't expect anyone to be confused about

16 ... There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give a wrong meaning to them. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that. - 2nd Peter 3 vs 14 - 16

Kobojunkie:
1. That is what the statement in 2 Peter 3 vs 14 - 16 clearly says. There are aspects of Paul's teachings that Peter agreed with, and the specifics are highlighted beginning in verse 15. 😒😒

2. Wrong! Look again! 😒😒
Nothing in the above reads like an endorsement of all of the contents of every one of Paul's letters. 😒

Kukutente23:
➜Just give examples. You can't make up things that Peter never said and hide under vague words like aspects.
➜ Peter clearly said "all of his epistles" contain "these things" which are based on the longsuffering of our Lord that is Jesus Christ. So which aspects of Paul's teachings did Peter disagree with as you claim? Kindly share.
➜ It's clear and without doubt that Peter equated Paul's letter with scriptures which is why he said the letters have suffered same fate as "all the other scriptures".
➜ The part of not easy to understand is not a rejection of the letters but acknowledgment of the complexities of some of the concepts there especially for a Jew.
➜ A good example is where Paul taught in 1 Corinthians that there's nothing wrong in eating food sacrificed to idols. There are those who will look at that and say it implies there's nothing wrong in being found in a gathering of idolaters. Revelations also highlights this. Another is the teaching of Paul in the marriage between a believer and an unbeliever. Those are specific concepts that might be hard to understand. It does not mean they are not inspired or less scriptural. That's what Peter meant

14 Dear friends, we are waiting for this to happen. So try as hard as you can to be without sin and without fault. Try to be at peace with God.
15 Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient. Our dear brother Paul told you that same thing when he wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 That’s what he says in all his letters when he writes about these things. There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give them the wrong meaning. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that. - 2nd Peter 3 vs 14 - 16

Kobojunkie:
1. You claimed that one passage from one of Peter's letters is a definite endorsement of all of Paul's letters, an obviously false claim when closely examined. 😒😒

2. Stop lying! What Peter instead said is as indicated below. 😒
It is totally diffrent from that which you claim. 😒

3. Peter only considered the portions of Paul's writings that aligned with the message about salvation being a result of the patience of the Lord as Scripture; Peter did not indicate that the other parts of Paul's writings, including the parts that he found hard to understand, were of Scripture. This is a simple issue of language comprehension here. 😒😒

4. This claim regarding the complexity of jews is hogwash, and I know you know it! 😒

5. First of all, Peter did not indicate agreement with any of what Paul said about eating foods. Second, Jesus Christ of Israel made it abundantly clear that whatever food one eats does not defile one; therefore, any suggestion that some foods may be bad is already in violation of Jesus Christ of Israel. 😒

Kukutente23:
1-2. It is rather you who should desist from deliberate falsehood. Why do you leave out the part that reads all his letters in your obviously selfish interpretation of v16?
3. What is obvious is that Peter considered all of Paul's writings and concluded that they contained the same message whose central theme is the longsuffering of the Lord. You deliberately leave that out. But you can't delete them can you? The reference to other scriptures shows that Peter considered Paul's letters to be part of scriptures
4-5. It is not. Go and read Galatians 2 and get yourself acquainted with the issues therein. If Peter who was present at the teachings of Jesus could find it difficult to practice out of fear of the Jews, how do you now call the complexity of Gal 2 hogwash? I think you do so ignorantly

Kobojunkie:
1. Verse 15 references the aspects of all of Paul's letters which point to salvation being the result of the longsuffering of the Lord, the "these things" specified in Verse 16. Do all aspects of all of Paul's letters reference this very exact thought? The simple answer is no! Almost all of Paul's letters that we have today also contain Paul's private opinions on issues, among other things, which do not trace back to the very topic that Peter highlighted there in Verse 15. 😒