Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? - Islam (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 6:30pm On Sep 16 |
honesttalk21:Let me describe what you've done TenQ: Mr honesttalk21, who is the current President of Nigeria? honesttalk21: The current President of Nigeria is out of the country TenQ: I didn't ask if the president is in the country or not. I asked you that who is the current President of Nigeria honesttalk21: I have answered your question You may reject those answers, but rejection is not absence of an answer. Do you see how you sound!? BTW: My questions had not changed ONCE throughout this chat. It was always about the REASON or the PURPOSE or WHY Allah made Jesus with all these unique attributes. If you would be sincere to yourself, there is ZERO Theological Reason. The best you can say is "Allah knows best" and then shut up. |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 8:10pm On Sep 16 |
TenQ, notice what you did with this post before we even get to the analogy. You quoted me saying the chain from unique signs to Christian misunderstanding to divine failure is unproven, and asking you to establish it. Then instead of establishing it, you pivoted to Nigeria and closed with "Allah knows best and shut up." You quoted the challenge and walked around it rather than answering it. The analogy itself is built wrong for what actually happened. It only works if my answer had been a non-answer, a description standing in for a name. That's not this exchange. I named the reason, sign and mercy at 19:21, permission at 3:49 and 5:110, the Adam parallel at 3:59, and you rejected the reason because it wasn't the conclusion you wanted. Your version would need to read, "I asked who the president is, you gave me a name, and I said that's not the president I meant," for it to actually map onto what happened here. That's also where your six-questions claim breaks down. What purpose does Islam give for Jesus' attributes is answered, directly, from the text. Why Allah chose these particular signs over others is a different question, an exhaustive-explanation demand, not a request for a purpose, and you keep sliding between the two and calling the first one empty when the second isn't supplied. So here's what's still on you. Prove Allah intended these signs to produce the later Christian doctrines, and that their emergence constitutes divine failure. That's the premise the whole "Allah's purpose backfired" claim rests on, and quoting my challenge isn't the same as meeting it. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 8:48pm On Sep 16 |
honesttalk21:I think I should remind you of the very first post relating to this sets of questions. TenQ:Can you see that the question was about WHY ALLAH MADE JESUS EXTRAORDINARILY UNIQUE But, you did not give me the Reasons WHY but you said everything about "it doesn't mean that Jesus is Divine" What you have been brainwashed to say is that it is a SIGN and a MERCY 1. Notice that you deliberately did not complete it. A sign and a mercy to WHO in particular Is it to the Jews or to the whole world 2. Secondly, how could it be a SIGN to a PEOPLE when there are no WITNESSES? +In whose presence was Jesus take to heaven? +Who could attest to the fact that Mary was a Virgin? +Which of Jesus disciples saw him create a Bird from clay? etc No witnesses according to Islam!! 3. You say the UNIQUE Attributes of Jesus was a MERCY! I am sure you did NOT think about WHAT this means.? Mercy means showing kindness, compassion, or forgiveness toward someone whom you have the power or right to punish or harm. 1. First, Mercy to WHO? (the Jews or the world) 2. Mercy for WHAT? 3. Can you explain how Jesus being a Spirit, Word of Allah, Born from a Virgin, Create Birds, Born without a Father and knowing what people eat/have in their house a MERCY? So, the Ball is still in your court. I have no answer BUT it is NOT your fault , the answer is simply not available in Islam. 1. The purpose of Allah (if he had any reason at all) Backfired seriously. 2. This also out a doubt on your doctrine of DESTINY. Because either Allah planed this or he didn't. |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 10:21pm On Sep 16 |
Recycling your opening post doesn't undo the answers already on record. Mercy to mankind, mercy in guidance toward truth, not an obligation to justify every means to your satisfaction. Sign for those who reflect, not proof for skeptics, ascension, virgin birth, and the clay bird are matters of revealed testimony, the same category your own resurrection accounts rest on. His will isn't undone by human misreading, misunderstanding, or conviction to be rebellious. Q42:15: there is no argument between us and you. This ends here. Remember even the name "Christian" wasn't given by Christ, it was coined by disbelieving critics in Antioch, a city of the empire that built a faith on a crucifixion that didn't actually occur, alas it's the foundation Paul holds as the point without which your actions are in vain, as though it were his to determine, not the Almighty's. A large following was never proof against eternal consequence, and forcing that binary onto Him won't change that. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 11:24pm On Sep 16 |
honesttalk21:Repeating yourself a billion times doesn't miraculously make you correct. I quoted my opening for you to see that I have been consistent with my interaction with you. honesttalk21:Can I ask you a simple Question? Knowing that so many Prophets have been sent to the Jews, What is the Name of the Religion given by YHWH to the Jews before Jesus? |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by Rashduct4luv(m): 12:53pm On Sep 17 |
honesttalk21:I am tired sef. They even behave like adults with toddler IQ. 1 Like |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 11:17pm On Sep 17 |
I won't recycle or repeat the six answers again. What's left unestablished is yours, not mine. You treat Christianity as the religion Jesus founded, then blame Allah's purpose for producing it. But where did Jesus name it Christianity, or tell followers to be called Christians? That name came from Antioch, after him, from outsiders. You've now asked what religion YHWH gave the Jews before Jesus, apply your own standard here: are you asking for a later label, or the actual covenant, law, and revelation given by the prophet himself? Those aren't the same question, and absence of a later label doesn't prove absence of prophetic revelation; not for Moses, not for Jesus, not for anyone. So before asking why Allah's purpose backfired into Christianity, establish that the later system you call Christianity is what Jesus himself established and named. That's the part you haven't done. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 12:01am On Sep 18 |
honesttalk21:Jesus did not found a religion! Jesus founded a Relationship with God by which we Gentiles could be CHILDREN OF GOD About the Name of the Followers of Christ, All you needed to do was to show just ONE INSTANCE where YHWH gave the name of any Religion to Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, Zechariah, John or Jesus. Because it seems the TRUE God is NOT after a Religion but a RELATIONSHIP with Him. What is the Name your Father gave the Relationship you have with him and your Mother? Was it necessary!? NO!! Too Bad, The ONLY Aberration is ISLAM! honesttalk21:You have been answered! Jesus did not create a Religion but a Relationship with God whereby we (unworthy ones) become Children of God. Jn 1:12-13: "But as many as received Him (Jesus), to them He gave authority to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name; Who were not begotten by bloodlines, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God." Tell me, From the Taurat or Zabur or the Injeel, What is the name given by YHWH to Moses or David or Solomon or Jesus as the NAME of His Religion? Sorry! It seems Iblis wanted a Religion of his own, So, he gave one that is a Taoheed of religions and made Ahad of the Taoheed of Deities in All LAH! |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 7:07am On Sep 18 |
TenQ, read what you just wrote carefully. You said: “Was it necessary? NO.” That is precisely the point I made. The absence of a formal religious name does not prove the absence of divine revelation, covenant, worship, or a genuine relationship with God. By your own admission, a relationship with God does not become invalid simply because it was not given an institutional label. So if Moses, David, Solomon, or Jesus did not require a formal name for their religious commitment, then the absence of a later institutional label cannot be used as evidence against the revelation itself. The Qur’an goes further and explicitly identifies the religion as Islam (Qur’an 3:19, 5:3). Under your own principle, that is not a problem. It simply means this revelation explicitly identifies itself by name where earlier revelation may not have done so. You also cannot have it both ways. You say Jesus did not found a religion but instead founded a relationship with God. Yet you then demand that Moses, David, and Solomon produce the name of His religion. Why judge them by a category that you have just said was unnecessary in Jesus’ case? You have effectively conceded that a relationship with God does not require a formal name. That undermines the argument you were trying to build from the absence of one. And the idea that this personal relationship with God begins uniquely with Jesus is also not established simply by using relational language. Moses is described as speaking with YHWH face to face, as a man speaks with his friend (Exodus 33:11). David speaks of God personally: The LORD is my shepherd (Psalm 23:1), and David is described as a man after God’s own heart (1 Samuel 13:14). So there is already a deeply personal dimension to the relationship between God and His servants before Jesus. Even the father/children terminology is not something that suddenly appears with Jesus. Israel is called God’s son: Israel is my son, even my firstborn (Exodus 4:22), and Deuteronomy says, You are the children of the LORD your God (Deuteronomy 14:1). That does not mean Jesus cannot develop or deepen the concept of relationship with God. It means the vocabulary itself does not prove that something categorically unprecedented has appeared. If John 1:12–13 is being presented as evidence of a fundamentally different kind of sonship, then that difference has to be demonstrated from the text; it cannot simply be assumed because the Gospel uses the language of becoming children of God. And notice where Jesus himself stands on the fundamental question of God’s identity. When asked about the greatest commandment, he affirms: The Lord our God is one Lord. (Mark 12:29) So the question remains what exactly did Jesus teach about God, worship, and humanity’s relationship to Him, and what part of that teaching is genuinely new rather than a development of concepts already present in the Hebrew Scriptures? If you appeal to the virgin birth as proof of divine sonship, that still does not follow automatically. The Qur’an directly addresses this argument: Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was. (Qur’an 3:59) Adam had neither a father nor a mother, yet his extraordinary creation does not make him the son of God. Likewise, the Qur’an describes Jesus forming a bird from clay and breathing life into it, by Allah’s permission (3:49; 5:110). And here is the logical problem; an extraordinary act of creation demonstrates divine power; it does not establish that the created being is God’s offspring or, following your own line of reasoning, Jesus’ offspring, is the created bird his offspring?. Creation and offspring are two entirely different categories. If creating a bird from clay does not make that bird Jesus’ offspring, then why should the extraordinary manner of Jesus’ own creation automatically make Jesus God’s offspring? The conclusion does not follow from the premise. So an extraordinary birth may demonstrate that something extraordinary happened, but extraordinary origin does not logically entail divine sonship. That conclusion requires an independent argument. Finally, Iblis wanted a religion of his own is an assertion, not an argument. Calling someone Iblis does not establish anything about Jesus, revelation, or what Islam teaches. The claim has to be demonstrated, not merely asserted. So the real question was never simply: Where is the name? The real question is What did the prophets teach about God, worship, revelation, and submission to Him? And is what you describe as something categorically new in Jesus actually established by his teaching, or is it being assumed from later interpretation? That is the issue TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 9:41am On Sep 18*. Modified: 10:19am On Sep 18 |
honesttalk21:Dont forget that you made an accusation that Jesus did NOT give the name Christian to his followers! My response was that His purpose was not to Create a Religion (with a Name) but to create a RELATIONSHIP of we Gentiles with God as His Children. AND THIS LED TO ME SAYING: "What is the Name your Father gave the Relationship you have with him and your Mother? Was it necessary!? NO!! Too Bad, The ONLY Aberration is ISLAM!" In other words, ONLY Islam is that designed to be a Religion and thus it must therefore have a given Name by their God. So. if the purpose of God was to establish a Religion, he would have given it a name. Unfortunately, Moses, David, Solomon or Jesus proved otherwise. Their purpose was not to have a religion BUT a Relationship with God on His Terms unlike Mohammad and his Allah! honesttalk21:Unfortunately, you got this completely WRONG! God had called [b]ONLY the TRIBES of ISRAEL his CHILDREN![/b] Through the prophets of God, we know that God had ADOPTED the Children of ISRAEL as His Children. Exodus 4:22 “Israel is my son, even my firstborn.” YHWH commands Moses to tell Pharaoh to release Israel, whom God calls his firstborn son. Deuteronomy 14:1 “You are the children of the LORD your God.” Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” This explicitly describes Israel as YHWH’s son whom he brought out of Egypt. Isaiah 63:8 “Surely they are my people, children that will not lie”; therefore, YHWH became their Saviour. Jeremiah 31:9 “I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” This ADOPTION as God's Children excludes all the other Tribes or Nations of the world. Except you can prove otherwise! This was why the Jews boast about it. Jesus came to make us non-Isrealites (Gentiles) to ALSO become God's Children through Him. Jn 1:12-13: "But as many as received Him (Jesus), to them He gave authority to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name; Who were not begotten by bloodlines, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God." FOR THAT REASON, I SAID: Jesus did not found a religion! Jesus founded a Relationship with God by which we Gentiles could be Adopted as CHILDREN OF GOD honesttalk21:Jesus taught several things to His Disciples. Unfortunately, it is gross STRAWMAN tactic to impose your idea of Allah on YHWH. The two Gods are completely DIFFERENT! You as Muslims have to MISREPRESENT YHWH in order to MISREPRESENT the Oneness of YHWH (to conform to the oneness of Allah) If you check carefully, the Oneness of Allah is NOT Different from the Oneness of Iblis in its spatial sense. Let me give you just ONE Major Difference amongst Several Allah is spatially located in space. BUT YHWH is spatially Omnipresent THE IMPLICATIONS: 1. Different Levels of Existence In Islam: Allah is seated on his throne upon the waters which is above the seventh heaven. The seven heavens are layered above the seven earths. This is why Allah has to descend to the lowest heaven every third part of the night to listen to the prayers of Muslims. In Christianity: The Physical Universe is a SUBSET (in dimensions) of the Spiritual Realms (Heaven) AND both the Heavens and the Physical Universe as SUBSETS of YHWH. I other words both the Heavenly Existence and the Physical Existence exist WITHIN YHWH because He is SPIRIT. 2. Different Levels of Visibility In Islam: Allah is Spatially visible everywhere from his throne, through the seven heavens (I suppose). Eg. I do not think that Muslims will ascend above the seventh heaven to the throne of Allah where Allah will tell you using another SHAPE "I am your lord" In Christianity: a. YHWH is the ETERNAL, INVISIBLE and OMNIPRESENT Holy Spirit (All Existence is INSIDE Him) However, because YHWH is OMNIPRESENT (He is extends EVERYWHERE spiritual or physical) b. YHWH in the Heavenly Space is VISIBLE as the FATHER c. YHWH is the Physical Space is VISIBLE as the WORD (the Word at a point became Human). This is the Trinity Described in Limited Human Layman's Terms: One God, three Persons! So, Jesus and Christians are Correct: Mar 12:29: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The YHWH our God is one Lord:" So, you, Allah and Mohammed MISREPRESENTING the Oneness of YHWH with respect to Christians is a serious STRAWMAN representation. Unfortunately , Allah couldn't even correctly define the Trinity! He probably thought that Mary, Jesus and Allah is the Trinity. SMH!! honesttalk21:I did NOT apeal to the UNIQUENESS of Jesus a proof of His DIVINITY! Fulfilled Prophecies about Jesus in the Scriptures is the Proof of His Divinity. The Uniqueness of Jesus are attributes that attests to the fulfilled Prophecies. So, for the thousand time, I have NEVER said that the Uniqueness of Jesus makes Him divine. Rather I have asked you WHY Allah made Jesus so unique that the consequence made him come 600 years after to correct the damage he himself caused. honesttalk21:Unfortunately, you do not know any messages preached by any prophet other than the generic claim of preaching the "Oneness of God" (which is a silly claim anyways) Its just like if I summarised the teaching of Mohammed to: He came to preach the Oneness of Allah! #Did Mohammed not teach about Destiny of Allah? #Did Mohammed not teach about Prayers to Allah? #Did Mohammed not teach about Hell Fire? #Did Mohammed not teach about Paradise? #Did Mohammed not teach that his name is in the Torah and Injeel? #Did Mohammed not teach Muslims to believe in the previous scriptures as from Allah? etc etc You will agree with me that, It is thus laughable and indeed extremely naive and silly to reduce the message of Mohammed to believe in Oneness of Allah! So, check your claims as Muslims! |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 10:52am On Sep 18 |
honesttalk21. You said something very untrue that was claimed in the Qur'an and I want to bring you up to. You said: Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was. (Qur’an 3:59)1. Adam was created from dust but Jesus was created by Allah or Jibril BY breathing of his spirit into the Farjah of Mary 2. Allah never created Adam from "BE" (Kunfayakun): In creating Adam, a. Allah took dust, b. mixed it with water, c. moulded it with his two right hands, d. waited for 40 years for him to dry up (depending on the hadith), e. then Allah breathe into Adam of his spirit. This is not creation by the command BE. It is a process in manufacture! Creation from BE implies bringing into EXISTENCE a creation by words of commands only! |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 1:31pm On Sep 18*. Modified: 3:28pm On Sep 18 |
tenq, You have now introduced several claims, but the central problems remain. On naming: If God intended a religion, He would have named it is an invented rule. You are defining your tradition as merely a relationship and Islam as merely a religion because that makes your conclusion possible. But Islam means submission to God and absolutely includes a relationship with Him on His terms. No principled distinction has been demonstrated. A name does not determine whether something is revelation. The substance of what God revealed does. On only Israel are God's children your Exodus, Deuteronomy, Hosea, Isaiah and Jeremiah passages establish Israel's special covenantal status, but they do not prove that Gentiles could never enter a relationship with YHWH. Isaiah itself anticipates foreigners joining themselves to YHWH (Isaiah 49:6; 56:3–8 ). And individual relationship with God clearly predates Jesus as Moses speaks with God (Exodus 33:11), and David addresses God personally throughout the Psalms. More importantly, being called God's child does not make someone God. Israel can be God's son; believers can be God's children. Therefore you still have to prove the separate proposition that Jesus being called God's Son entails that Jesus is Almighty God. On Adam, Qur'an 3:59 says: Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was. Your objection about Adam's physical formation misses the point. The comparison is not claiming identical physical mechanisms. It is addressing the inference that an extraordinary origin establishes divine sonship. And the 40 years drying argument is misplaced. Sahih Muslim 2652a–f does not say Adam's clay spent forty years drying. The forty years concern the decree mentioned in Adam's conversation with Moses, not a forty-year drying process. So the Qur'anic principle remains untouched. Creation is not procreation. And yes, the New Testament itself develops an Adam–Jesus parallel, with Paul calling Jesus the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) and contrasting Adam's disobedience with Christ's obedience (Romans 5:19). But notice what that actually does; it demonstrates that Adam–Jesus comparisons do not automatically concern the mechanics of their origins. They concern theological roles and what each is said to accomplish. If you want to use Paul's theology to establish Jesus's divinity, then establish that separately. It cannot simply be smuggled into Qur'an 3:59 as though the verse itself proves Pauline Christology. On Allah and YHWH, they are completely different Gods is your conclusion, not your proof. Arabic-speaking Christians themselves call God Allah. If you mean Islamic and Nicene conceptions of God differ, yes—that is precisely the theological dispute. Your spatial argument also assumes that descriptions of Allah's Throne, heavens and descent necessarily mean Allah is a finite being physically confined to a location. That does not follow. And your description of the universe and heavenly realm literally existing inside YHWH is not simply the Nicene Creed; it requires its own theological defense. Even 1 Kings 8:27 says that the heaven of heavens cannot contain God. On Qur'an 5:116,the Qur'an probably thought Mary was the third member of the Trinity is speculation. If your argument is that 5:116 addresses something other than Nicene Trinitarianism, then demonstrate that from the text and historical evidence. Don't replace the Qur'an's actual wording with what you think it probably meant. And finally, you have clarified your actual case. You now say Jesus's uniqueness is not your proof of divinity; fulfilled prophecy is. Fine. Then let's stop arguing about uniqueness. Give us your strongest prophecy and establish four things: 1. What the passage means in its original language and context. 2. Why it specifically refers to Jesus. 3. Why Jesus uniquely fulfills it. 4. Most importantly, how its fulfillment proves divinity specifically, rather than Messiahship, kingship, prophethood, or divine appointment. That fourth step is essential. So let's reduce this entire discussion to one test: Name the prophecy. Then we examine the actual text, its original context, its earliest interpretation, and the logical conclusion it supports. No labels. No speculation. No probably. No shifting definitions. If fulfilled prophecy is genuinely your proof that Jesus is God, let the prophecy itself make the case. TenQ:TenQ, thank you for not contesting the rest of the argument particularly the biblical evidence for Moses’ and David’s personal relationship with God, and the central point that creation does not equal offspring. Those points still stand. On your objection, though, check the ayah you are arguing against. Qur’an 3:59 itself says: “khalaqahu min turābin thumma qāla lahu kun fayakūn” — “He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.” So dust and “Be” are both already in the verse you are disputing. They are not additions I introduced. Whatever additional details a hadith gives concerning the shaping or forming of Adam’s body do not erase either part of the Qur’anic statement. And on the forty-year point, let’s be precise: the well-known Sahih Muslim narration speaks of a matter being decreed forty years before Adam was created; that is not the same thing as saying Adam’s clay simply sat drying for forty years. If you have another specific narration in mind, cite it. But even granting your broader description of Adam’s formation, your objection still doesn't touch the comparison in 3:59. There is actually a striking parallel in Genesis. Genesis 2:7 says that God formed man from the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. So the basic sequence is: material formation → divine impartation of life → living human being. That is remarkably close to the distinction you are trying to make between the forming of Adam and the point at which he becomes alive. The Qur’an's wording in 3:59 therefore does not require the absurd interpretation you are imposing on it — that if Allah says “Be,” absolutely no preceding or accompanying creative process can exist. Your definition of “Be” as necessarily meaning words alone, with absolutely no process whatsoever is something you need to establish, not simply assume. More importantly, you are still missing the actual theological point of the verse. The Qur’an is not giving a chemistry or manufacturing manual for Adam in 3:59. It is answering the question of how Jesus could exist without a human father. The comparison is: Jesus — created by Allah’s command, without a human father. Adam — created by Allah’s command, without a human father or mother. The circumstances are not identical in every detail. The comparison does not require them to be. The point is that absence of a human father does not logically entail divine sonship. And here is where your argument becomes even more difficult from the biblical perspective. According to Genesis, Adam is the beginning of the human family. Eve is explicitly called “the mother of all living” (Genesis 3:20), and Jewish reference literature likewise understands Eve in this tradition as the first woman and mother of humanity. Genesis then traces humanity through Adam's descendants. Genesis 5 begins specifically with “the book of the generations of Adam” and says Adam fathered Seth “in his own likeness, after his image.” The Jewish tradition also emphasized Adam as the representative ancestor of humanity. The Mishnah's famous discussion of why a single human was created first connects Adam with the unity of mankind and the fact that humanity ultimately comes from one human origin. Jewish Encyclopedia summarizes this tradition as emphasizing the diversity of humanity arising from one original human type. And the New Testament itself makes the same point even more explicitly. Acts 17:26 says that God made “from one man every nation of mankind.” The NET translation's note identifies that one man as Adam. So your own biblical tradition gives us a very important framework: one original human → humanity descends from that human → Jesus belongs to humanity. Luke's genealogy of Jesus goes all the way back through the ancestral line to “Adam, the son of God” (Luke 3:38). In other words, the New Testament itself places Jesus within the Adamic human story rather than presenting him as a different order of creature. That matters for the argument about Jesus' miraculous birth. Jesus does not need to be biologically generated through an ordinary human father in order to be genuinely human. Adam himself demonstrates the more fundamental point: humanity ultimately exists because God creates it. Adam had: - no human father, - no human mother, - a miraculous creation by God. Yet nobody argues from that fact that Adam must therefore be God Himself or God's biological offspring. Jesus has: - no human father, - a human mother, - a miraculous creation by God. So why should the absence of Jesus' human father suddenly change the category from created human to divine offspring? That conclusion requires another argument. And this is precisely why Qur’an 3:59 is so powerful as a response to the sonship argument. It does not claim that Adam and Jesus were created by identical physical mechanisms. It makes a narrower comparison: If miraculous origin makes Jesus divine, then Adam presents an even greater problem for that reasoning — because Adam's origin is more extraordinary still. Adam was not born from a human mother and father at all. Jesus was born from a human mother. So if the argument is: “Jesus had no human father, therefore he must be God's Son,” then Adam creates the obvious counter-question: “Adam had neither a human father nor a human mother. Why does that not make Adam God's Son even more obviously?” The answer cannot simply be, “Because Adam was created differently.” Because that concedes the very point: the miraculous mechanism of creation does not itself establish divine sonship. And Genesis 2:7 actually gives us a biblical precedent for the same basic creation pattern: God forms the human from dust and gives him life. So when you say Jesus was uniquely created because Jibril breathed the spirit into Mary, you still have not established the crucial premise: Why does a miraculous act of divine creation mean “offspring” rather than “created servant”? Creation and begetting remain two different categories. And there is one more point you should address. You began by objecting that Jesus was not created from dust in the same way Adam was. But 3:59 never says Jesus was created from dust in the same physical manner as Adam. It says: “The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam.” The comparison is about the theological principle, not a claim that every physical detail of their formation was identical. So nothing here demonstrates that the Qur’an is false. You have challenged additional hadith details concerning Adam's formation, but those details do not refute the actual wording or argument of Qur’an 3:59. And the biblical and Jewish material actually makes the underlying comparison easier to understand: Adam is the first human. Eve is the mother of all living. Humanity proceeds from that first human family. Jesus belongs to that same human story. Therefore, an extraordinary mode of human creation does not, by itself, transform a human being into God's offspring. That is the point you still need to establish rather than assume. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 3:39pm On Sep 18 |
honesttalk21:You brought up the argument of Name: that Jesus did not give the name Christianity. Thus, I has to challenge you on ANY of the prophets apart form Mohammed who gave a name of their religion. I thus showed than Islam and Muslims of Mohammed and Allah are departures from the norm except if you can prove otherwise. honesttalk21:All you needed tondo was to find me ANYONE or ANY COMMUNITY that God in the Bible through any Prophet called HIS CHILDREN. And I went on to SHOW that IN CHRIST JESUS, ALL OF HUMANITY COULD BECOME GOD'S CHILDREN! Secondly , you are prone to Strawman Argument even after repeatedly telling you that It is NOT that Because Jesus has some Special Attribute He must be Devine. In case tou dont know, it is called Strawman Argument. honesttalk21:I only pointed out the internal contradictions in the verse. If Allah says he created Adam by BE, we expect that his command would be sufficient to cause Adam to come into Existence without PHYSICAL INTERVENTIONS. Examples: Gen 1:3: "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Gen 1:9: "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so." Gen 1:11: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth: and it was so." The Above is How YHWH calls something into BEING without Physical Intervention! Otherwise, Every Engineer and Bricklayers in Nigeria has the power of kunfayakun. They build with their hands and after, they woul say to whatever they have built BE! honesttalk21:You are so obsessed with "Jesus is UNIQUE, therefore He is Devine" Was that my argument?! When you are confused, ask! Paul compares Adam to Jesus in the Sense that 1. Through one Man (Adam) , SIN came into the Humanity. AND 2. Through one Man (Jesus) , SIN is removed from Humanity. Therefore Jesus was called the SECOND Adam. Rom 5:12,14,17-18: "Why, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned: … Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. … For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life." Next time, ask questions! honesttalk21:Indeed Allah and YHWH are completely different ENTITIES. And all I have done is to use only ONE example and PAINT it well for you to comprehend. 1. Allah is One and his oneness is not different from the Oneness of Iblis. BUT YHWH is One and His Oneness is a Trinity The TWO IDENTITIES are different sir. 2. Allah is Spatial and is a SUBSET of the Entire EXISTENCE YHWH is Spatially OMNIPRESENT and the whole Existence is within Him. If you need scriptures, I can give them to you. Then a weak argument again: Arab Christians call God Allah! Forgetting that God is a TITLE as Allah is a TITLE #The NAME of the Allah of the Arab Christians is YHWH #The NAME of the Allah of the Arab Muslims is Allah Sorry Bola Ahmed Tinubu is a President Donald Trump is a President But the IDENTITY of Tinubu and that of Trump are DIFFERENT Just as Allah is a God YHWH is a God But the IDENTITY of Allah and that of YHWH are DIFFERENT It is a weak and lame argument. Secondly Indeed Allah as described by Mohammad and your Islamic scholars is FINITE, LOCALISED and SPATIAL. Just to show that your God is spatially located! 1. Are the seven heavens above the seven earths according to Mohammed? 2. Is Allah not above the seventh heaven? 3. Is there not a water above the seventh heaven over which seven mountain goats (or angels) carry the throne of Allah? 4. Does Allah descend to the lowest heavens every third part of the night according to your prophet? 5. Would you Muslims see Allah on the hear after? If your answer is YES! Do you deny that ANYTHING that can be seen is LIMITED? honesttalk21:As if the Nicene Creeds objective was to define the Trinity. Jeremiah 23:24 “Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him?” declares the LORD. “Do I not fill heaven and earth?” declares the YHWH. 1 Kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!” Acts 17:28: "For in him (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Inside God we have our existence existence Psalm 139:7–10 “Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Hell, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.” Even inside Hell, YHWH is there! NOTHING in Creation is Omnipresent other than YHWH! Exactly, the Heavens and the Earth cannot contain YHWH because He EXISTS Beyond Them. Do you know why Angels, Demons Jinns and other spirits can co-exist with us on the Earth? It is because the Earth is a subset of their Spiritual Realm (world) Can you see why the Oneness of Allah is not different from the Oneness of Iblis!? honesttalk21:Qur'an 5:116 “And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, “Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah”?’ He will say, ‘Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right…’” So, we have Allah, Jesus and Mary as Gods worshipped by the Christians. honesttalk21:I have no clue to what tou refer to here so there is no reason thanking me for anything honesttalk21:It is not you contradicting yourself about the ayah, It is Allah contradicting himself. Qur'an 38:75 “[Allah] said, ‘O Iblīs, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My two hands ? Were you arrogant, or were you among the exalted?’” Did Allah create Adam with his COMMAND or with his TWO HANDS? honesttalk21:Eyah! In the Bible, God Created EVERY thing in EXISTENCE by His COMMAND except Adam and Eve Gen 2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:21-22: "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her to the man." Unfortunately, the greatest prophet in the Universe didn't learn that well, so he muddled it up. Humans were NOT created by Command sir: God made man Himself honesttalk21:The issue is not about Genealogy but How Adam was created. Isnt the command BE Kunfayakun according to you Muslims. Do you want us to water Kunfayakun down that Allah doesn't have the power to call into existence things that never existed!? Rom 4:17 …in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.” honesttalk21:Sorry, What matters is Why Allah made Jesus Super-Extraordinary? What was Allah trying to Achieve? Did Allah's Objective Fail? Why did Allah cause such a confusion and waited for more than 600 years to correct it? And why is it that Allah couldn't explain clearly questions about Jesus's Crucification and Ascension to heaven knowing that the Christians witnessed both events. |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 3:45pm On Sep 18*. Modified: 4:31pm On Sep 18 |
I removed this from the previous discussion honesttalk21:You want me to give you one "strong" prophecy! And you want me to answer the questions 1. What the passage means in its original language and context. 2. Why it specifically refers to Jesus. 3. Why Jesus uniquely fulfills it. 4. Most importantly, how its fulfillment proves divinity specifically, rather than Messiahship, kingship, prophethood, or divine appointment. I will do so, but I will need your help! You will help me answer TRUTHFULLY relevant questions from the verse. Then, I will answer your questions! Is my terms clear? |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 8:03pm On Sep 18 |
TenQ: TenQ:tenq, your terms are noted. But I want to make one thing clear before you proceed. I am not taking on an obligation to accompany you through an endless examination of arguments from your own Scripture. If you believe you have a prophecy that proves Jesus's divinity, you are free to present it and defend your interpretation. Whether I continue engaging with it is a separate matter. My role in this discussion was never to supply your evidence, interpret your passages for you, or repeatedly answer every new objection after the underlying point has already been addressed. If you consider fulfilled prophecy your strongest evidence, then the burden is yours to establish what the passage actually says, whom it refers to, and why its fulfilment establishes divinity specifically. I also want the earlier point on Adam may he be blessed left accurately on the record. You argued from a 40 years drying detail, but the hadith does not say that Adam's clay dried for forty years. The forty-year reference concerns the decree concerning Adam's creation. That was a misunderstanding of the hadith, not something contained in the Qur'an. So accusations of strawman or misunderstanding should be accompanied by the same care with the sources being interpreted. The same principle applies to the other claims you've raised. Saying Allah and YHWH are different entities, asserting that Allah is necessarily spatially finite, or claiming that Qur'an 5:116 identifies the Nicene Trinity as Allah, Jesus, and Mary does not make those conclusions established merely by stating them. Each requires an argument from the actual texts and their context. As for Qur'an 3:59, there is no contradiction in the verse saying Allah created Adam from dust and then saying Be, and he was. Allah's command is precisely what brings about what He wills; the existence of a created process does not somehow deprive the command of its efficacy. Your bricklayer analogy therefore does not establish the contradiction you claim. And regarding your repeated question about why Allah made Jesus blessing on him extraordinary, the Islamic answer is already clear; extraordinary signs do not turn a servant and messenger into God. Allah gives signs to whom He wills, and the greatness of a prophet's signs establishes his prophetic mission not divinity or something else. So I am not going to restart every branch of the discussion each time another objection is introduced. The points have been stated. If you wish to present your prophecy, that is your evidence to present; you do not need me to help construct it, and I am under no obligation to turn the discussion into another sprawling exchange. At this point, the matter is between you and the evidence you claim establishes your conclusion. Examine it carefully, distinguish the text from interpretation, and be sure the conclusion actually follows from the premise. |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 9:17pm On Sep 18*. Modified: 5:57am On Sep 19 |
I think I was able to EXPLAIN the TRINITY to you clearly. It is another thing for you though to accept it. It is actually a THEOLOGICALLY Superior position than TAOHEED for God. Trinity is what makes YHWH Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. Human intellect can only say: ONE God in Three Persons honesttalk21:As long as you speak truthfully to the text about the questions asked honesttalk21:My role is that you speak the truth to the text and not twist and turn to avoid its logical conclusion otherwise, it would be an exercise in futility. honesttalk21:1. Ibn al-Athīr's al-Kāmil fī al-Tārīkh Ibn ʿAbbās said: Allah ordered the soil of Adam to be lifted... He said: So he remained for forty nights, or it was said: forty years, as a lifeless body cast down, and Iblīs would come to him and strike him with his leg, and it would sound hollow. Link: https://ar.lib.eshia.ir/22036/1/28 2. Al-Ṭabarī's Jāmiʿ al-Bayān He said: So He created Adam from it with His hand. He said: So he remained for forty nights as a lifeless body cast down, and Iblīs would come to him and strike him with his leg, and it would sound hollow and make a sound. Link: https://lib.eshia.ir/41737/22/24 3. Ibn Kathīr's al-Bidāya wa al-Nihāya So he was a body of clay for forty years of the measure of Friday, and the angels passed by him and were terrified when they saw him, and the most terrified of them was Iblīs. He would pass by him and strike him, and the body would make a sound like pottery makes a sound. Link: https://lib2.eshia.ir/40019/1/96 honesttalk21:1. YHWH is a Trinity and I explained it in SIMPLE terms. BUT Allah is NOT a Trinity as explained in Islam 2. YHWH is Spatially OMNIPRESENT as shown by the scriptures EVIDENCES I gave you BUT Allah is NOT Omnipresent as shown by the claims of Mohammed. They cannot be the same IDENTITY sir. Donald Trump and Bola Ahmed Tinubu are both Presidents HOWEVER The are NOT the SAME Persons! honesttalk21:Repeating yourself doesn't change ANYTHING. I gave you examples from the Torah how YHWH Creates by COMMAND (No other activity or Action is Involved) AND When YHWH creates by ACTION. Did Allah create Adam by ACTIONS of moulding clay, Breathing into it OR By Kunfayakun ALONE! You cannot an eat your cake and have it. It is a contradiction. honesttalk21:I other words THERE IS NO REASON or PURPOSE that you know other than Allah can do whatever he pleases! SMH. |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 9:31pm On Sep 18 |
honesttalk21 Your Questions: And you want me to answer the questions1. Truthfully answer the questions with respect to the verse below Zech 12:10: "And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." 1. Who is speaking here ("I", "ME", "HIM")? 2. Who was He speaking about (who are the "THEY" )? 3. Who is the One that was pierced? 4. Who shall mourn in the text? Short one sentence answer each please: be Truthful I will thereafter explain what each of your questions mean
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| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 8:25pm On Sep 19 |
You said your purpose is that I speak the truth to the text and not twist and turn to avoid its logical conclusion. I agree with that standard. But it has to be applied consistently, we need to distinguish what the text actually says from what we are importing into it. This will be my final response to this exchange, so I will address the remaining points directly and then leave the matter there. 1. Be does not mean no process. Your central objection is that the Qur'an supposedly gives us an impossible choice: Did Allah create Adam by physically forming the clay and breathing life into him, or did He create Adam by Kun fayakūn alone? That is a false dilemma. Qur'an 3:59 says He created him from dust; then He said to him, Be, and he was.The verse itself gives us both elements, dust + divine command. You have added the word alone. The verse does not say He said Be,therefore no material formation, shaping, proportioning, or other divine creative act occurred. That is your premise, not the Qur'an's. And the Qur'an's other descriptions make the problem even clearer.Qur'an 7:11 says: We created you, then shaped you, then said to the angels, prostrate before Adam. The Arabic explicitly places creation before shaping. We created you, then We shaped you.So the Qur'an itself distinguishes creating from shaping/forming. (http  https://quran.com/al-araf/11-137?])So notice the pattern, Q3:59 emphasizes Allah's command, 'Be,' while 7:11 describes creation and fashioning as sequential stages. These are aspects of one creative act described from different angles, not competing or contradictory accounts. Qur'an 15:28–29 likewise describes creating a human being from clay and then says when I have proportioned him and breathed into him… And Qur'an 38:71–72 gives the same sequence: creation from clay, followed by proportioning and the breathing of life. [https://legacy.quran.com/15/28-29?] So the Qur'an itself presents Adam's creation using language of creation → shaping/proportioning → giving life. Your argument requires kun fayakūn to mean God cannot use any material, formative, or sequential process. But the Qur'an never says that. You have to prove that premise. You can't just assume it. Qur'an 3:59 also likens Jesus to Adam. If your objection is that a process, clay being shaped and left to dry, can't coexist with Be capping the creative act, then Jesus's own case cuts against you the same way; gestation, a nine-month process of physical development, precedes his birth just as clay-shaping precedes Adam's. Both are process within one creative act completed by divine will, not a rival account competing with it. You can't accept process for Jesus and reject it for Adam under the same objection. 2. Genesis 2:7 makes it even harder to sustain your proposed distinction. Look at your own biblical text. Genesis 2:7 says the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. The sequence is dust → divine formation → divine impartation of life → living man. That is remarkably close to the Qur'anic descriptions of clay/dust → creation/shaping/proportioning → divine breath → living Adam. So when you argue that divine formation somehow contradicts divine command, Genesis 2:7 does not establish that rule. It explicitly says that YHWH formed Adam from dust and breathed life into him. That does not make Genesis and the Qur'an identical in every theological respect. It establishes the narrower point that matters here: There is no logical contradiction between God's sovereign command and a description of the creative process involving formation, shaping, or giving life. Your bricklayer analogy therefore misses the theological category. A bricklayer is a creature working with independently existing materials. God is the Creator. Divine command is not merely a human worker saying Be after constructing something. 3. The Qur'an itself prevents your either/or formulation. You repeatedly frame the question as action or kun fayakūn. But the Qur'an does not frame it that way. It can say we created you, then shaped you. It can say I will create a human being from clay… when I have proportioned him and breathed into him… And it can summarize divine creative authority with Be, and he was. Those descriptions are not mutually exclusive. You have to demonstrate the contradiction rather than merely assert it. 4. The forty-year tradition. I will also grant the historical point you actually established. Ibn al-Athīr, al-Ṭabarī and Ibn Kathīr preserve traditions describing Adam as a lifeless body of clay before receiving life. I am not denying that those reports exist. But we need to keep the reports separate. The Sahih Muslim narration earlier sighted concerns the decree associated with Adam. It is not the same as the later reports describing a period in which Adam's clay/body remained lifeless. The forty-year/forty-night lifeless-body tradition is the material we are discussing here, and the weakness issue concerning ʿAlī ibn Zayd ibn Judʿān pertains to that tradition. It should not be incorrectly attached to the separate Sahih Muslim report. That distinction matters. ʿAlī ibn Zayd ibn Judʿān is a narrator whose reliability was criticized by hadith authorities, with assessments including weakness. So the forty-year drying/lifeless-body report cannot simply be elevated to the status of an unquestionable, rigorously established Qur'anic fact. And there is instability in the reports themselves where versions give different durations, including forty years and forty nights, while other formulations omit a specific number. Therefore, the honest description is that the tradition is attested in Islamic historical/exegetical literature, but the specific forty-year detail is not something you can simply treat as equivalent to an explicit Qur'anic statement. Even if I grant the report completely for argument's sake, however, your contradiction still does not follow. A period during which Adam's body was described as lifeless would simply describe a stage in the creative process. It does not prove therefore Qur'an 3:59 cannot say Be, and he was. You still have not established that premise. 5. Your time argument does not establish a contradiction either. You appeal to the forty years as though a human measurement of duration creates a theological problem for divine creation. But the Qur'an itself distinguishes divine reckoning from human reckoning. Qur'an 22:47 speaks of a day with Allah being like a thousand years of human counting, while Qur'an 70:4 describes a day as fifty thousand years. The point is not that we can arbitrarily explain away every chronological statement.The point is simply that human measurements of time cannot automatically be turned into metaphysical limitations upon divine action. And again, you do not actually need this argument. Your central problem remains nothing in Qur'an 3:59 says that Be excludes a preceding or accompanying creative process. 6. Trinity versus Tawḥīd You said YHWH is a Trinity… Allah is not a Trinity… therefore they cannot be the same identity. That conclusion does not follow merely from the fact that Christianity and Islam have different doctrines about God. The question is whether the two religions are making competing claims about the identity and nature of the Creator God. Arabic-speaking Christians use Allah for God. Therefore the word itself cannot establish that Muslims and Christians are referring to different deities. Your Trump/Tinubu analogy only establishes that two individuals can share a property without being identical. It does not establish the reverse proposition: If two theological systems attribute different properties to God, they must therefore be referring to different beings. That requires an argument of its own. 7. Trinity makes YHWH omnipresent is an assertion, not a demonstration. You said Trinity is theologically superior to Tawḥīd because Trinity makes YHWH omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. That is a theological evaluation, not something established simply by stating it. You still need to demonstrate. Why is Trinity necessary for omnipresence? Why could an absolutely transcendent, omnipotent God not be omnipresent without being tri-personal? If your explanation depends upon the Father, Son and Spirit being distributed across different spatial realms, that is not simply the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. Classical Trinitarian theology does not define the three persons as three spatially separated portions of God. So if you have constructed a particular spatial model of the Trinity, defend that model. Do not present the model itself as though it were the conclusion already established by Scripture. 8. Now to Zechariah 12:10 You asked me for four short answers. Here they are. 1. Who is speaking? The speaker is YHWH, speaking in the first person, I and Me. 2. Who are they? In the immediate context they are the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of David. 3. Who is the pierced one? In the reading אֵלַי (ʾēlay, to Me) of the Masoretic Text, the wording makes the speaker identical with the one towards whom they look in the piercing statement. However, there is a major textual variant אֵלָיו (ʾēlāw, “to him”), which changes the grammatical construction 4. Who is grieving? The house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem mourn. Those are the truthful answers to the questions as written. But you then have to do the actual interpretive work. 9. The Hebrew textual question cannot simply be skipped! Your argument depends heavily on They will look upon Me whom they pierced. But the textual issue matters. The Masoretic reading is ʾēlay —to Me. A textual variant reads ʾēlāw — to him. Why is the variant incorrect? That difference affects the grammatical relationship between the speaker and the pierced figure. Therefore, if you want to argue that the Hebrew text unequivocally says YHWH Himself will be pierced, you need to establish why the Masoretic reading should control the argument and then explain its meaning in the historical and literary context. An interlinear does not settle a textual-critical question. 10. Even granting to Me does not automatically establish Jesus' divinity This is where your response has not answered the questions I asked. Suppose, for argument's sake, that I grant the Masoretic reading to Me. You still need to establish: First: why this passage specifically refers to Jesus. Second: why Jesus uniquely fulfills it. Third: why fulfillment establishes deity specifically, rather than Messiahship, kingship, divine appointment, representation, or another category. Those are separate propositions. The word Me cannot prove all three by itself. That is precisely why I asked you what does the passage mean in its original language and context? Why does it specifically refer to Jesus? Why does Jesus uniquely fulfill it? Most importantly, how does fulfillment prove divinity specifically rather than Messiahship, kingship, prophethood, or divine appointment? You have not answered those questions. You have largely moved from here is what the verse says to therefore my Christological conclusion is true. The missing arguments are precisely in the word therefore. 11. Jewish interpretation also has to be dealt with. The Jewish interpretive tradition does not simply read Zechariah 12:10 as an obvious statement that YHWH will become incarnate and be physically pierced. The Targumic tradition, Rashi, Ibn Ezra and other Jewish interpreters provide interpretations that do not amount to that Christian claim. That does not automatically prove the Jewish interpretation correct. But it does establish something important. The Christian interpretation is not forced upon the reader by the Hebrew text simply by pointing to an English translation. It has to be argued. 12. Jesus' own quotation of the Shema also matters. Mark 12:29 records Jesus answering the question about the greatest commandment by quoting Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one. So when you say Trinity is the only intellectually superior explanation of biblical monotheism, you still have to explain your doctrine in relation to the very Jewish confession of divine oneness that Jesus himself quotes. ONE God in Three Persons is a theological formulation. It is not, by itself, a demonstration. 13. And the body, soul and spirit analogy does not prove the Trinity. If you use man/body/soul/spirit as an analogy for Father, Son and Spirit, the analogy breaks precisely where the doctrine needs explanation. A person's body, soul and spirit are not three distinct persons, each fully possessing the complete human nature. Classical Trinitarian theology makes a very different claim about Father, Son and Spirit. So the analogy may illustrate unity with distinction in a loose sense, but it does not establish the specifically Trinitarian claim. 14. You also skipped the actual questions. You said I will thereafter explain what each of your questions mean. But explaining what my questions mean is not answering them. My questions were deliberately specific. What does the passage mean in its original context? Why does it specifically refer to Jesus? Why does Jesus uniquely fulfill it? How does that fulfillment establish deity specifically? Those questions remain. And that is important because your entire conclusion depends upon them. 15. So let us apply your own standard. You told me to speak the truth to the text and not twist and turn to avoid its logical conclusion. Agreed. So let us do exactly that. The Qur'an says Adam was created from dust. It also says We created you, then shaped you. It describes creation from clay followed by proportioning and the giving of life. Genesis likewise says YHWH formed Adam from dust and breathed life into him. Therefore, your proposed contradiction between divine command and divine action has not been demonstrated. The forty-year lifeless-clay tradition is attested in later Islamic literature, but the specific narration associated with that detail has a weakness issue involving its transmission, and it is not the same report as the Sahih Muslim narration concerning Adam's decree. And even granting the forty-year report, it still does not establish that Be means no process. Likewise, Zechariah 12:10 contains a real textual and interpretive question. Even granting the Masoretic ʾēlay, you still have to establish why the pierced figure is specifically Jesus, why Jesus uniquely fulfills the passage, and why that fulfillment proves deity rather than merely messianic or representative status. Those steps have not been demonstrated merely by quoting the verse. So this is where I will leave it. I have answered your questions. I have distinguished the Qur'anic text from later Islamic reports. I have acknowledged the evidence that actually exists rather than denying it. I have addressed your Be versus action argument from the Qur'an itself and from Genesis. And I have answered your four Zechariah questions while identifying the textual issue that your argument still has to address. This is my last response on these points. If you believe the text establishes your conclusion, then the remaining task is not to repeat the conclusion or explain the Trinity again. It is to demonstrate the missing premises from the actual Hebrew, Greek, Qur'anic and historical contexts. If those premises can be established from the texts, then they can stand on their own. If they cannot, repeating the conclusion will not supply them. Let the text carry the argument. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 10:09pm On Sep 19 |
honesttalk21:Meaning that I also have the power of kunfayakun (according to your definition) Proof: I made a pottery last week. I took the clay, processed it, formed it into a cup and then glazed and fired it. Afterball this, I said to the cup Kunfayakun and it was. A Muslim will lie through his teethbto defend Allah Literal meaning Kun = “Be!” (command) Fa = “and / then” Yakūn = “it is / it becomes” Okay, I agree with you thatThe Kunfayakun of Allah needs physical assistance! honesttalk21:Unlike you Muslims, no Christian EVER said that YHWH created Adam or Eve by a COMMAND. No! The God of the Bible Created Adam and Eve Personally . He didn't use a command like the rest of creation. So, defend your Allah and his partial Kunfayakun honesttalk21:LOL! Me too, I have the power of kunfayakun like Allah. I made a clay cup and declared to it Kunfayakun: and it was! honesttalk21:Your scholars agreed with me. Another evidence that there was no Kunfayakun. 40 Days or 40 years is too long for God to create ANYTHING! honesttalk21:Eyah! Assisted Kunfayakun is all I am hearing you say! it is a contradiction sir! honesttalk21:It seems you don't even understand what you are saying. You desperately want Allah and YHWH to be the same that even with evidences, you still want your WISH to come TRUE! 1. YHWH is OMNIPRESENT and Allah is NOT! 2. YHWH is a FATHER and Allah is NOT! 3. YHWH is a TRINITY and Allah is NOT! YHWH is a SPIRIT! Is Allah a Spirit? NO!!! Allah is NEVER the same as YHWH! Sorry: you have an IMITATION! honesttalk21:Can Allah BE Spatially in Heaven and on Earthat the same time? My God is spatially with me in my ROOM and even when I am in my TOILET! Can Allah enter the TOILET with you? Sorry! |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 12:11am On Sep 20*. Modified: 4:08pm On Sep 20 |
Mr Man, Inhave not even defended the scripture! All I asked you to do was to ANSWER the questions in the text. honesttalk21:1. The speaker is YHWH (the LORD), the God of Israel, who says “I will pour” and “they shall look on Me.” 2. “They” are the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (the people of Judah/Jerusalem). 3. The One who was pierced is grammatically the same divine speaker (“Me whom they pierced”), 4. Those who shall mourn are the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (the people of Judah/Jerusalem) over the pierced one. Let me allow the Bible to INTERPRET the text for you. John 19:34: "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and immediately came there out blood and water." Here you see that Jesus was PIERCED. John 19:37: "And again another scripture said, They shall look on him whom they pierced." The Book of John IDENTIFIES Jesus as the One PIERCED according to the Scripture as quoted in Zechariah 12:10 This is JUST ONE EVIDENCE! Let me answer your UNSOLICITED Objections honesttalk21:The Masoretic text is a MINOR and RECENT variant created by the Jews in Opposition to the Christians claiming that Jesus is the Messiah. Except you think that the Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah! Finally, the Jews are still in ERROR until they look on the one whom they have pierced! honesttalk21:I did NOT use my own interpretation! I used the BIBLE (the Book of John 19:34 and John 19:37: Sorry! honesttalk21:I am not a JEW! Jewish Scholars hate Jesus and call him a bastard and certainly NOT the Messiah. Do you agree with them? Sorry! honesttalk21:Lame argument! Do Christians say we have THREE Gods or ONE God? I have explained the TRINITY to you. The fact that you desperately want the Oneness of YHWH to be like the Oneness of Allah is inconsequential. Let me show you something from the Torah. Gen 19:24: "Then YHWH (on Earth) rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;" Starting from Genesis 18 and 19 1. YHWH came to Abraham with two of his His Angels 2. YHWH with His two Angels ate FOOD prepared by Abraham 3. YHWH promised Abraham to have a son (Isaac) through Sarah his wife 4. YHWH spoke about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with Abraham 5. YHWH sends His two Angels to rescue Lot and his Family form the destruction. 6. Abraham NEGOTIATES and PLEADS with YHWH for the sparing of Sodom and Gomorrah 7. The Angels take Lot, his Wife and his two Daughters to the outskirt of Sodom and Gomorrah 8. YHWH on Earth sends down FIRE amd BRIMSTONE from YHWH out of the Heaven. So, 1. Can Allah eat if he wanted to without ceasing to be Almighty? 2. Can Allah enter the Flesh/Body of a Man? 3. Can Allah simultaneously be in Heaven and on Earth? This ALSO shows without an iota of doubt that 1. Allah is NEVER the same as YHWH? 2. Allah by nature CANNOT do what YHWH can you! honesttalk21:You asked me a question and you are doing all the talking. The Trinity of man is a far approximation of the Trinity of God. However, I can use it to show how a human being can exist in at LEAST TWO Dimensions. Let me help You! 1. Is it TRUE that Mohammed said that ALL prophets are in their GRAVES doing Salat? 2. Is it TRUE that Resurrection has not yet Occurred and when it occurs, Mohammed would be the FIRST to be resurrected? 3. Is it TRUE that Mohammed went on a Night Journey to Paradise and met all the prophet from Adam to Moses to Joseph etc? If the THREE questions above are TRUE. Since resurrection has not yet occurred, are you sure that Mohammed TRULY spoke with Moses, Adam etc in Paradise? So, explain how Moses can be in his grave praying and also be in heaven speaking with Mohammad? honesttalk21:You jumped the gun because I asked you to answer some questions and not to write a thesis objecting what I have not even defended. You asked me to answer the questions 1. What the passage means in its original language and context. Answer: God was telling the Children of Israel that they would at a time in future Reject and Pierce Him and they would cry terribly when they realise that it is YHWH that they have rejected amd Pierced. There they would be restored! 2. Why it specifically refers to Jesus. Answer: The Bible itself said that the passage refers specifically to Jesus (NOT Me) in the Book of John 19:34 and John 19:37: 3. Why Jesus uniquely fulfills it. 1. Jesus was Pierced. 2. Jesus is coming back again at the end of time to judge mankind AND then, the Jews will realise that the One they had Rejected as the Messiah is their God. 4. Most importantly, how its fulfillment proves divinity specifically, rather than Messiahship, kingship, prophethood, or divine appointment. Answer: In the book of Zech 12:10 , YHWH says that He would be Rejected and Pierced by the Children of Isreal The Book of John 19:34 and John 19:37: explicitly identified Jesus as the YHWH who was pierced according to prophecy of Prophet Zechariah! Note that the Bible itself interpreted the book of Zechariah and NOT my interpretation. honesttalk21:1. The Bible Never said that God created Adam and Eve by Command. In the Bible, EVERYTHING else was created by Command EXCEPT Adam and Eve. Allah did not know this: thus he said he made Adam by Kunfayakun BUT then contradicted himself that he made Adam using his TWO hands from mud. Sorry: it is a clear contradiction! 2. I have allowed the Bible to INTERPRET itself. Except your argument would be that the Book of John 19:34 and John 19:37: were not referring to Jesus with respect to the book of Zachariah! honesttalk21:Boohoo! You jumped the gun. I only asked you to answer four questions. Deliberately, I gave you the Hebrew-English Interlinear Translation so that you can check for yourself. Of course, as al-Muisilimums (who usually are known to deny plain TEXTS), I am NOT expecting your enemy to agree with the text because, if a al-Muisilimums will deny his own text (to protect his beliefs) they would do even worse with the Bible. DO YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU ANOTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE BIBLE OR YOU ARE DONE? |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 2:48pm On Sep 20 |
TenQ:I said my previous post was final. I am making this one clarification only because your two subsequent responses at 10:09 p.m. 19/09 and 12:11 a.m.20/09/2026 do not resolve the central objections; they largely repeat the original assertions and then expand the discussion into new subjects. So let us be precise about what happened. You did answer the four preliminary questions concerning Zechariah 12:10. I have no need to pretend otherwise. You identified YHWH as the speaker, the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem as “they,” the pierced figure according to your reading, and the mourners. You then appealed to John 19:34–37 to connect Jesus with the pierced figure. But those four answers were not the whole argument. The real questions were what those answers actually establish. You still have to demonstrate: 1. Why Zechariah 12:10, in its original Hebrew and literary context, specifically refers to Jesus. 2. Why Jesus uniquely fulfills the passage. 3. Why fulfillment of the passage establishes deity specifically, rather than Messiahship, kingship, representation, or another category. 4. How the textual variant between אֵלַי (to Me) and אֵלָיו (to him) affects the argument. 5. Why the Christian reading should control over the alternative Jewish readings. John 19:37 establishes that John applies the piercing text to Jesus. It does not, by itself, prove every proposition between John applies this text to Jesus and therefore Zechariah proves Jesus is YHWH. That missing chain is exactly what I was asking you to establish. And this is where your two later responses become revealing. The Adam argument remains unproved Your central objection is still: Did Allah create Adam through physical formation and the giving of life, or through “Kun fayakūn” alone? That is a false dilemma. Qur'an 3:59 itself gives both elements: Adam is created from dust, and Allah says Be, and he is. You supplied the word alone. The Qur'an does not. It does not say Allah said Be; therefore no forming, shaping, proportioning, breathing of life, or other divine creative action occurred. That is your premise. And the Qur'an elsewhere explicitly describes creation and shaping as sequential aspects of the creative act We created you, then We shaped you (7:11), while 15:28–29 and 38:71–72 describe creation from clay, proportioning, and the breathing of life. So your repeated formulation physical action OR Kun fayakūn does not follow from the text. You have to establish why they are mutually exclusive.You have not. Genesis does not establish your rule either Genesis 2:7 says YHWH formed Adam from the dust and breathed life into him. That establishes divine action. It does not establish Because God formed Adam, God therefore did not command Adam into existence. Genesis 1:26 makes your categorical statement that Christians never describe humanity's creation through divine command even more difficult to sustain: Then God said, Let us make man in our image. Genesis can therefore contain divine speech concerning humanity and subsequently describe the manner in which Adam was formed. That is precisely the distinction you refuse to permit in the Qur'anic account. Command does not logically exclude execution through a process. Your bricklayer/potter analogy therefore misses the theological category. A human craftsman depends upon independently existing material. God is not a creature dependent upon an independent creation. Your cup analogy proves only that you can manipulate existing clay and subsequently say Kun fayakūn. You did not create the clay. You did not create yourself. You did not create the physical laws governing the process. And your cup did not become a living human being. So you have not reproduced the divine phenomenon you are trying to use as an analogy. You have merely pronounced two Arabic words after manufacturing a cup. The forty-year argument does not repair the contradiction I did not deny that Islamic historical and exegetical literature contains reports describing Adam's body as remaining lifeless before receiving life. But you cannot simply turn every later report into an unquestionable Qur'anic fact. The specific transmission and grading of those reports have to be distinguished from the separate Sahih Muslim material concerning Adam's decree. And even if I grant the forty-year report completely for the sake of argument, your conclusion still does not follow. A period of formation before life would simply be a stage in a creative process. It would not prove therefore Allah could not say Be. Again, you need the missing premise that Be excludes process. You have never established it. Your two later responses also demonstrate the problem with the discussion's structure At 10:09 p.m., instead of establishing why “Be” necessarily excludes divine action, you named a weak and false pottery analogy, the forty-year argument, and the assertion that YHWH created Adam personally. At 12:11 a.m., you again returned to the Zechariah surface questions, then moved into the Masoretic Text, Jewish scholars, Trinity, Genesis 18–19, divine spatiality, the toilet analogy, and finally the Mi'raj. The issue is not that every one of those subjects is illegitimate. The issue is that a new subject does not resolve an old unanswered premise. That is the structural problem here. You began with one proposition Kun fayakūn is incompatible with a physical creative process. That proposition was challenged. Instead of demonstrating the missing premise, the discussion keeps acquiring new branches. That is why I describe the pattern as a gish gallop not as an accusation about your motives, but as a description of the argumentative structure where more claims are being introduced faster than the disputed premises are being demonstrated. Volume does not become evidence merely by increasing. And your Mi'raj argument is precisely such a new branch You introduced the questions about Muhammad pbuh, the prophets in their graves, resurrection, and Moses during the Mi'raj. But those were not questions I had previously asked you. They are a new argument introduced by you. So I am not going to pretend they somehow answer the Adam question. Even if your premises concerning Moses were all granted, you would still have to establish another proposition: How does a question concerning the state or location of Moses establish that a human being possesses Allah's creative Kun fayakūn? It doesn't. Being encountered somewhere is not creation. Presence is not creation. A prophetic encounter is not creation. And the existence of a theological question concerning Moses does not demonstrate that a human being can create by divine command. It is another branch. The same applies to Genesis 18–19 You point to Genesis 19:24 and argue that YHWH on earth rains fire from YHWH in heaven. That is a textual observation worth discussing. But it does not automatically demonstrate the Trinity. You still have to establish the theological inference. Likewise, the fact that Genesis describes YHWH appearing to Abraham and acting in relation to heaven does not by itself establish a later doctrine of three divine persons. A biblical narrative and a developed theological formulation are not automatically identical propositions. And your spatial argument does not establish what you claim “Can Allah enter the toilet?” That is rhetoric, not demonstration. Omnipresence is not simply the proposition that God occupies every location as a physical object occupies a room. If you want to establish a contradiction between Islamic and Christian doctrines of divine presence, define the respective doctrines and demonstrate the incompatibility. A provocative example does not do that work for you. Your claim about Allah and YHWH likewise requires more than doctrinal difference. You argue YHWH is omnipresent. Allah is not. YHWH is Father. Allah is not. YHWH is Trinity. Allah is not. Therefore Allah and YHWH are different beings. But that conclusion does not automatically follow from disagreement between two theological systems. Arabic-speaking Christians themselves use Allah for God. So the linguistic designation certainly cannot establish different identities. Your Trump/Tinubu analogy proves only that two people can share a description without being identical. It does not prove the converse that If two theological systems attribute different properties to God, they must therefore refer to different beings. That requires a separate argument. And Trinity makes YHWH omnipresent is not a demonstration. You said Trinity is the superior explanation because it makes YHWH omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. But saying that does not demonstrate it. Why is Trinity necessary for omnipresence? Why could an absolutely transcendent, omnipotent God not be omnipresent without being tri-personal? And if your argument depends upon Father, Son and Spirit being distributed across spatial locations, you need to defend that particular model rather than present it as though it were simply the definition of classical Trinitarian theology. Again assertion is not demonstration. The Masoretic argument requires evidence, not motive. You called the Masoretic reading a minor and recent Jewish variant created in opposition to Christianity. That is a historical and textual claim. It therefore needs historical and textual evidence. Calling Jewish scholars hostile to Jesus does not establish that their textual reading is wrong. If Rashi or Ibn Ezra gives a grammatical or contextual interpretation you reject, answer the interpretation. Jewish scholars hate Jesus is not a rebuttal to Hebrew grammar. Nor does it establish that the Masoretic reading was fabricated to defeat Christianity. You have to establish that historically. So let us apply your own standard consistently. You told me to speak truthfully to the text and not twist or turn away from its logical conclusion. Agreed. Then the same standard applies to your argument. The Qur'an describes Adam as created from dust. It describes creation and shaping. It describes proportioning and the giving of life. It also describes divine creative authority through Be, and he was. Nothing in those descriptions establishes that divine command excludes divine action. You have asserted that exclusivity. You have not demonstrated it. Likewise, Genesis 2:7 describes divine formation from dust and the giving of life. Genesis 1:26 contains divine speech concerning the making of humanity. So the existence of a creative process does not establish the absence of divine command. Your central contradiction therefore remains unproved. And on Zechariah, John 19 gives you a Christian interpretive connection between Jesus and the pierced figure. Fine. But the argument still requires you to demonstrate the steps from: Zechariah → Jesus → unique fulfillment → deity. You cannot simply leap from the first proposition to the last and treat the intervening premises as self-proving. That is exactly where the argument needs to be made. Finally, this is why I am responding despite saying I was finished I am not reopening every branch of the discussion. I am clarifying the record because your two subsequent responses have introduced the appearance of additional evidence without actually resolving the premises that were challenged. The 10:09pm response did not establish why Be excludes process. The 12:11a.m response did not establish why the Zechariah connection to Jesus proves every subsequent Christological conclusion. Instead, new issues were introduced—textual variants, Jewish interpretation, Trinity, Genesis 18–19, spatiality, Mi'raj and others. That is precisely where debate can become a matter of accumulating objections rather than establishing conclusions. So I will leave the matter at the point where the evidence actually leaves it: You have not demonstrated that Kun fayakūn excludes divine creative process. You have not demonstrated that physical formation therefore contradicts divine command. You have not demonstrated that the pottery analogy is comparable to divine creation. And regarding Zechariah you have shown the Christian identification of Jesus with the pierced figure in John; you have not, merely by quoting John, demonstrated every premise required to turn that identification into a proof of Jesus' deity. Those are the actual outstanding arguments. Not the number of new questions that can be added afterward. Let the text carry the argument. If the missing premises can be established from the Hebrew, Greek, Qur'anic and historical evidence, establish them. If they cannot, repeating the conclusion—or opening another branch—does not supply them. That is the clarification I needed to put on record, and I will leave it there. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 4:16pm On Sep 20 |
honesttalk21:I did answer your questions! To answer it, I didn't appeal to my INTERPRETATION, rather I allowed the Bible itself to ANSWER the Question. Let me remind you as you asked two sets of questions and I answered them. Please check FIRST SET OF QUESTIONS honesttalk21:1. The speaker is YHWH (the LORD), the God of Israel, who says “I will pour” and “they shall look on Me.” 2. “They” are the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (the people of Judah/Jerusalem). 3. The One who was pierced is grammatically the same divine speaker (“Me whom they pierced”), 4. Those who shall mourn are the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (the people of Judah/Jerusalem) over the pierced one. Let me allow the Bible to INTERPRET the text for you. John 19:34: "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and immediately came there out blood and water." Here you see that Jesus was PIERCED. John 19:37: "And again another scripture said, They shall look on him whom they pierced." The Book of John IDENTIFIES Jesus as the One PIERCED according to the Scripture as quoted in Zechariah 12:10 This is JUST ONE EVIDENCE! YOUR SECOND SET OF QUESTIONS honesttalk21:You jumped the gun because I asked you to answer some questions and not to write a thesis objecting what I have not even defended. You asked me to answer the questions 1. What the passage means in its original language and context. Answer: God was telling the Children of Israel that they would at a time in future Reject and Pierce Him and they would cry terribly when they realise that it is YHWH that they have rejected amd Pierced. There they would be restored! 2. Why it specifically refers to Jesus. Answer: The Bible itself said that the passage refers specifically to Jesus (NOT Me) in the Book of John 19:34 and John 19:37: 3. Why Jesus uniquely fulfills it. 1. Jesus was Pierced. 2. Jesus is coming back again at the end of time to judge mankind AND then, the Jews will realise that the One they had Rejected as the Messiah is their God. 4. Most importantly, how its fulfillment proves divinity specifically, rather than Messiahship, kingship, prophethood, or divine appointment. Answer: In the book of Zech 12:10 , YHWH says that He would be Rejected and Pierced by the Children of Isreal The Book of John 19:34 and John 19:37: explicitly identified Jesus as the YHWH who was pierced according to prophecy of Prophet Zechariah! Note that the Bible itself interpreted the book of Zechariah and NOT my interpretation. You probably OVERLOOKED my RESPONSES! I WASN'T APPEALING TO MY OWN INTERPRETATION, I WAS USING THE NEW TESTAMENT TO ANSWER YOU! CHECK! |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 5:22pm On Sep 20*. Modified: 8:23pm On Sep 20 |
honesttalk21:Lots of grammar doesn't change the fact that you are trying to redefine Kunfayakun to mean something which is definitely NOT. How do you scholars define Kunfayakun? Confirm if I am WRONG? 1. Kun Faya Kun (Arabic: كُنْ فَيَكُونُ) is an Arabic phrase used in the Quran that translates to "Be, and it is." It represents the absolute power, sovereignty, and creative will of Allah. In Islamic theology, it means that when Allah decides to create or manifest something, He does not need a process, time, or tools; Allah simply wills it, and it immediately comes into existence. 2. Does it require any physical actions? No, it requires absolutely no physical actions or efforts from Allah. In Islamic belief, Allah is completely independent of His creation and transcendant above physical limitations. Human creation requires materials, time, and physical labor. In contrast, Allah's creation through Kun Faya Kun requires only His divine will and command. 3. What are the Key Characteristics of Kun Faya Kun a. Instantaneous: There is no delay between God’s decree and the manifestation of that reality. b. Effortless: It does not involve physical tools, hands, energy expenditure, or materials. c. Absolute Authority: Nothing can stop, alter, or delay what Allah has commanded to "be." At this point, I can only refer you to a neutral Arbitrator! IN ANY AI Chatbot of your choice input the following prompts In not more than 40 words each be truthful and factual according to Islamic Theology 1. What is Kunfayakun? 2. Does Kunfayakun require any other input or physical actions other than the speech of Allah for its fulfilment? 3. What are the Key Characteristics of Kun Faya Kun? I hope you would be honourable to show me the results! Allah contradicted itself, Kunfayakun does NOT require ANY other input. honesttalk21:You forgot that younwerenthebone who digressed by bringing in (out previous post on other threads about the BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT of man. All I did was to educate you and ask you a question ISLAMIC Theology couldn't explain. That, 1. The prophets are supposed to be in their graves praying. 2. It is NOT yet the time of Resurrection 3. Mohammed would be the first human to be resurrected. So, Explain how Mohammed spoke to Moses and Moses spoke to Mohammed in paradise. (Was there a temporal resurrection)? honesttalk21:It was a CHALLENGE to distinguish between Allah and YHWH. 1. YHWH can incarcerate as a human being if He chooses. Does Allah have the power to enter into a human flesh? 2. YHWH is everywhere including even Hell or the Toilet. Can Allah spatially be with you in your Toilet? The Questions establish that they are not the SAME BEING! No wonder, you cannot answer the questions. honesttalk21:1. President Bola Ahmed Tinubu can sign into Law the Acts of the Nigerian National Assembly? Can President Donald Trump sign into Law the Acts of the Nigerian National Assembly? NO! Conclusion: Bola Ahmed Tinubu and Donald Trump are NOT the same President nor the same Person. Is this difficult to comprehend!? YHWH and Allah are not the same IDENTITY no matter how strongly you wishnit to be. honesttalk21:Can you show from Islamic Theology that Allah is Spatially EVERYWHERE? If you cannot, Allah is NOT Omnipresent. YHWH can be spatially EVERYWHERE and simultaneously in Heaven and on the Earth: does Allah have this nature? So, answer the question yourself as per which of the natures of YHWH or Allah that is superior. Mohammed created a picture of Allah but crippled his nature unknowingly. The Oneness of Allah is NOT different from the Oneness of Iblis! honesttalk21:Let me help you with Historical Facts. You probably didn't know that there are two sets of Masoretic texts of the Tanakh. Putting the evidence in chronological order: 1. No Dead Sea scrolls fragment of Zechariah 12:10 → no direct help. 2. Old Greek (LXX) – 2nd–1st c. BCE translation: “look on me.” 3. Early Jewish tradition (Targum, rabbinic citations) – early centuries CE: “look unto Me.” 4. Vulgate – late 4th/early 5th c.: “look on me.” 5. Standard Masoretic Text (Aleppo, Leningrad, majority of MSS) – 9th–11th c.: “look on me.” The only Difference 6. Minority Hebrew Masoretic (medieval) and some later Greek versions: “look on him.” Date range: roughly 11th century and later (medieval period), with at least one clear example at AD 1105 (Codex Reuchlinianus). This was done by those you appeal to, to avoid the difficulty of God being “pierced, ” some later Hebrew manuscripts were altered to: “They shall look on him whom they have pierced.” So, based on Historical evidence attested to EVEN by the Standard Masoretic Text , the correct statement is “They shall look on ME whom they have pierced.” Sorry! honesttalk21:I would like you to show where YHWH created Adam or Eve by a Command as it doesn't EXIST! Every other thing in existence was created by YHWH's Command EXCEPT in the creation of Adam and Eve. Allah contradicted himself. It cannot be from mud while using his hands AND by command. Alright, At what point EXA did Allah commanded Adam to BE? a. After gathering the clay before molding Adam b. After molding Adam c. After drying Adam for Forty Days/Fourty Years d. After breathing of his spirit into Adam honesttalk21:you think I expect you to ACCEPT the TRUTH when it is presented to you!? If you cannot even stand by the truth with respect to your religious text, how do I expect you to stand by the truth when it comes to the Bible? You problem is that I used the Bible to respond to you and its NOT my INTERPRETATION! DO YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU ANOTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE BIBLE OR YOU ARE DONE? |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by honesttalk21: 8:58pm On Sep 20 |
TenQ:None of this adds anything beyond what's already on the table.You did answer the four preliminary Zechariah questions, but the disputed premises remain. Why this Zechariah verse specifically identifies Jesus, why he uniquely fulfills it, why the pierced figure proves deity rather than Messiahship, and how the textual issue affects the argument. John 19:37 shows John applies Zechariah 12:10 to Jesus, that doesn't prove Zechariah's original meaning is identical to John's later application, or that Jesus is YHWH. Repeating the Bible interprets itself doesn't answer those questions.On the text, the received reading is ʾēlay, "to Me"; a minority of later medieval manuscripts have ʾēlāw, "to him"; John himself quotes it third person, "him whom they pierced." I wouldn't claim the later reading was created to oppose Christianity without evidence, S.R. Driver argued for it on documented yod/vav confusion elsewhere in the text, not polemics. Your citations don't hold up under checking, though. Codex Reuchlinianus is the Aramaic Targum, not a Hebrew biblical variant, and its marginal note names the pierced figure as Messiah son of Ephraim, a Jewish interpretive tradition, not evidence of altered scripture. The LXX doesn't use the word "pierced" at all, so combining its pronoun with the Masoretic verb to get "look on me whom they pierced" isn't one witness, it's two spliced together. And 4Q80 does cover this section of Zechariah, so theno Dead Sea Scrolls fragment is too strong, the real question is whether this specific word survives legibly on it, not whether the fragment exists.So the simple story, all early witnesses say "me," Jews later changed it to "him", doesn't hold. And even granting ʾēlay, you still need the chain from "they will look to Me whom they pierced" to Jesus specifically to Jesus is YHWH. John gives the identification; it doesn't supply the missing steps.Your AI "arbitrator" isn't neutral if you feed it your own premises to confirm.On Kun fayakūn, 3:59 places dust and Be in the same account, so you must show why the command excludes the other descriptions, not just assert it. Ezekiel 37 undercuts your rule directly as God commands, and the text still describes bones, sinews, flesh, skin, then breath, in stages, command and process together. Your pottery analogy doesn't rescue this either, a human saying be over something he built shows what humans can do, nothing more, even fiction agrees. Geppetto's wish over Pinocchio needed a power beyond his own to make it real. And your at what exact point question assumes Kun must be an isolated event in a sequence, a premise you haven't established.Mi'raj is a new branch, unrelated to Adam or Kun fayakūn. Genesis 18-19 doesn't hand you a Trinity just because YHWH language appears. And Ezekiel 37 is exactly why the forty-year argument doesn't prove command and process are contradictory. So the unresolved questions stand: why must Kun fayakūn exclude every described process, why does John's application prove Jesus is YHWH rather than just identify him as the pierced figure, and why does ʾēlay settle anything when the sentence still shifts to him. Add as many new arguments as you want. They don't answer those. TenQ: |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 6:39am On Sep 21 |
Wait.... |
| Re: Why Do Muslims Wish Christians And Jews Death 17 times Everyday During prayer ? by TenQ: 8:51am On Sep 21 |
Mr honesttalk21 I don't know why Nairaland is preventing my post to upload. I will break them into two or three parts to find where the problem is. So, here is PART ONE if it will hold |
.Do Muslims Around The World Celebrate Salah On The Same Day? • Why Do Muslims Always Bear Mohammed • Do Muslims See Visions And Fall In Trance? • 2 • 3 • 4
Good Deeds Should Be Done For Allah, Not For People! • Let Us Discuss Destiny In Islam • Mood In Funtua,katsina State Country Home Abdul Farouk's Family Is Sad