alexis:


I am sure you believe in several things that have no identity - will you say they are abstract without meaning or basis?

So you accept God is nothing?

Seun:

If there were references to Orunmila, Sango and Obatala in the our national anthem, pledge, constitution, etc, wouldn't you want to have them removed? As a Christian, you would not want your children to have to recite an anthem or pledge that refers to gods or Gods that you don't believe in. That's the same way that Atheists in the US feel about having references to God in their national anthems, etc. However, most atheists don't even care about these things. The people who fight these battles are militant atheists. Most atheists are mellow.


How would you feel if a public school financed by your taxes started building monuments to religions you don't believe in? Would you support the building of Mosques or Orunmila shrines on the premises of the school your child attends, using your money? I don't think so!


It is wrong to suspend a student just for reading his bible during break. Most atheists would gladly defend this boy's right to read any book that he feels like reading during break. But according to the school authorities, that is not what the boy was actually suspended for. "But a spokeswoman for the Grossmont Union High School District — the district named in the suit — contends there’s much more to the story. She couldn’t elaborate, however, to KGTV because of federal privacy laws." Source. Many atheists love to read the bible.


Let's say that there are 100 religions in the world. As a Christian, you believe in one religion but you don't believe in the other 99. That makes you a believer in one religion and an atheist to the 99 others. You don't believe in Islam? Me too. You don't believe in Zeus? Me too. You don't believe in the Lord of Light? me too! You don't believe in Ifa? Me too! You have more in common with atheists than you realise.


I can direct the question back to you. The existence of Allah, Ifa, Zeus, Sango, and the Lord of Light haven't been proven to be false. Why rule out the possibility that they are real? Why don't you believe in these other Gods too? Why do you think Ifa worshippers are misled?

first of all, making reference to sango or any of the other names you mentioned in the constitution or any other symbol of national unity would be inappropriate because it has to do with a particular ethnicity. Therefore, doing such would make the constitution lumpsided as it favours one religious group over the other. God in the national pledge for eg, is in a broad sense; it is now up to you to interpret it based on your belief. I am a Christian, therefore I will interpret it as God Almighty, a muslim may refer to the statement as Allah, and a traditionalist can relate it to whatever god he believes in.

Just like Nigeria, a chunk of the schools in America, has Christian roots(as they were founded by missionaries) so pillars of Faith has been part of these schools since inception. But I wasn't just refering to schools, the clamour was that religion be taken out of the public: parks, streets corners etc there are even calls for the phrase,"in God we trust" to be removed from the currency.

Now, we know that even though atheism has been around for a very long time, it was only some 30 or so years ago(I may not be correct though) that they really began question every thing questionable. But the US, just like most countries with early civilisation, was founded on religious beliefs and so we can't say the laws of those countries are biased toward atheist because they were somewhat non existent when these laws were made.

From time in memorial, different groups of people have believed in different creatures and beings. Some living, some sculptures.

Even today, we have people worshiping human beings eg beyonce, maradona and other public figures. And they all have seemingly cogent reasons for believing in such beings. Perhaps these people have seen evidences of the effect of these beings in their own lives-am not ruling that out.
But I believe in God Almighty because I know Him and have experienced him and so I am certain he exist. Perhaps these other folks have the same testimonies of what they believe in. I don't think anyone is fo0lish enough to follow after a divine being without a reason for his belief! But whether that reason is right or not is another discussion For another gathering.

My argument is this, atheist would tell you God is unproven and that's what I don't quite agree with.
Rather, the fact that you(as an atheist) have not been able to prove the existence of God, doesn't mean others that believe in him have not also been able to prove his existence. You don't believe because YOU CAN'T PROVE HIS EXISTENCE not that his existence hasn't been proven.

Religion is based on faith in God and not reasoning or logic(logic is a slap on the Supreme nature of God that makes him above us).

But I'll tie-up with this question: in a situation whereby my human right is in conflict with your human right, which of these individual rights should be respected or honoured?

finofaya:
Sorry about the delay.



Religion clearly exists. God's existence is not equally obvious. That's why I said that God, not religion, is nothing more than a theory.



Miracles are unreliable. They have never been replicated. They never occur where they can be recorded properly. There tends to be more reports of them where there is more hardship and lack of education. A lot miracle claims have been shown to be either false or to simply involve the happening of a statistically unlikely event. Miracles claim to involve breaking natural laws but there are no miracles that are outside the ability of man to manage, such as the growing back of limbs or resurrection of persons with extensive damage to their body. There are just so many grounds to question the truth of a miracle claim.

A personal encounter with the divine, as you may have heard before, is in the realm of psychosis and hallucinations. What are we to do with a report of an experience that only your brain perceives, sometimes even with others present around you, when almost everybody is known to have similar experiences? If I told you I fell into a trance in which I saw the ultimate proof that there is no God, would you without any skepticism accept at once that there is no God? You would prefer to put my so called proof to the test.

Attributing things to God because you don't understand them is one way of jumping to conclusions.

things a philosopher would say. If I may ask, what is religion built on if not God? What is religion without a divine being?

Wow! You are so impossible!
Goshhh!!! I don't know what to say to you reading through what you just wrote. Not because I lack what to say, but because you are too full of logic.

I am sure you read too much of Hume and nietzsche.

Saying miracles or supernatural occurences happen mainly where there's poverty or lack of education is so wrong and a disrespect on the intelligence of believers. What would one gain by faking a miraculous happening in his life? Wouldn't it be lying to oneself?

I also disagree with you saying every miracle is something that can man can manage. Saying that is contrary to science because medically, there are cases that are referred to as impossible. But I invite you to the gathering of believers any day you are chanced if you want to see proofs that you yourself won't be able to deny except ofcos if you are just trying to be adamant and not accept it
.

But let me ask, what is the source of life? I mean is it possible to bring out something out of nothing?

[quote author=Kay17 post=26980883]

If your conviction is based on what I cannot do, then it is not valid. It should be based on what you have discovered that is APART FROM what me or any other believer say or doesn't say.

But like I said, how can zeus be the source of life when he had parent? His position was more like that of the president of Nigeria. Same with the other mythical gods- they were all positional leaders that's why they all have portfolios

charzyh2:

are you an atheist?

shey u knw no say seun na atheist ni? BACK to the topic all i want to say is 腌制成功率领导有方便吗啡我想你真好朋友情很喜欢乐园子里出一帆船上到那时还真没什么事干没什么事要睡的。在干啦！不知道是谁说的dats all

alexis: You have contradicted yourself - you are saying God can't be proven yet He can be proven. The issue here is your criteria of proving God.

I said that God is neither proven nor disproved. Where did you see "can't"?

Actually it is not. There are several things we all humans believe in that can't be proven nor do we have an idea what they are.

I don't get. What is not what?

Another misunderstanding of the idea of God at least as He is portrayed in Christendom. God is a God of ordinance and principles; He is not arbitrary. For example, the sun will shine even if it will cause drought and all your crops will die. Will some view that as evil; most likely; does that make God any less God than He is - No!

How do you know the bolded?

There are several attributes of God, depending on the circumstances and the person; we can view God as good, completely good or bad. As a judge that passes judgement on a wrong-doer; God might be classified as bad. To the person receiving the good end of the judgement; God is considered good.

Does it matter to God what he is or does it not? And do you agree that God might be evil?

Really? Can you be more specific on such issues?

Any issue that involves looking deep into the nature of God. Eg the issue of freewill v omniscience/omnipotence. They have an answer to any such issue, which is usually nothing more than "just take it on faith".

This is another assumption. Again, I will use the Christian God as an example. The Christian God does make it clear what He expects of His adherents so there are no arbitrary claims. These laws and expectations were directed at specific people i.e. the 10 commandments of the law of God was directed at the Jewish people - Christians do not force anyone to believe in these laws.

They have done so in the past. They still do so in some parts of the world. Muslims too. Besides there are means of coercion other than outright violence, eg open or subtle disapproval/contempt.

If the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" can raise the dead, heal the sick and atheists can play with the evidence under their micro-scope; I am sure it will not be a hard task to take this "god" seriously

You think the Invisible Pink Unicorn is unreasonable, don't you?

It's a choice mate; you are not being compelled to believe if you don't want to. However, do not fault others that want to believe.

For most people, the most potent reason why they dislike, say, homosexuality is religious in nature. Would you then say homosexuals are not being compelled to conform to the religious notions of others when being gay is frowned upon and even criminalized?

I already said that belief in God of itself is not the problem.

JEITO: things a philosopher would say. If I may ask, what is religion built on if not God?

Religion being built on the belief in God does not make it the same as God. You already agree that one is a construction on the other and yet you say the two are the same. That is like saying that the earth and a building are the same object.

What is religion without a divine being?

There are people who don't believe in God but who are religious at the same time. Don't ask me how they manage it.

Wow! You are so impossible!
Goshhh!!! I don't know what to say to you reading through what you just wrote. Not because I lack what to say, but because you are too full of logic.

What does this even mean? Too much logic?

I am sure you read too much of Hume and nietzsche.

No, you are not sure. But even if I had read just the right amount, would it have made a difference?

Saying miracles or supernatural occurences happen mainly where there's poverty or lack of education is so wrong and a disrespect on the intelligence of believers. What would one gain by faking a miraculous happening in his life? Wouldn't it be lying to oneself?

I don't mean any disrespect. However it is something you can confirm for yourself. It is not every where in the world that people go about seeking miracles.

Maybe the less privileged get to have more miracles?

I also disagree with you saying every miracle is something that can man can manage. Saying that is contrary to science because medically, there are cases that are referred to as impossible. But I invite you to the gathering of believers any day you are chanced if you want to see proofs that you yourself won't be able to deny except ofcos if you are just trying to be adamant and not accept it
.

Lol. I have been to even native doctors. It should be easier to find proof of the supernatural with these, since evil spirits would gladly expose themselves to you, whether you have faith or not. I have not seen any, but my search is not over anyway.

But let me ask, what is the source of life? I mean is it possible to bring out something out of nothing?

I honestly don't know. But if there is a God, and this God is alive, would you reject his telling you that his life is uncaused or that it is evolved or that it came from nothing?

There are theories on how life came about, though nothing is conclusive yet. The theory of evolution makes it possible for the first life forms to have been very very simple compared to us. This in turn makes it easier to believe that they self assembled by chance, as opposed to wildly complex things like us coming about by chance. It is quite conceivable that such life came about by good fortune.

JEITO:
If your conviction is based on what I cannot do, then it is not valid. It should be based on what you have discovered that is APART FROM what me or any other believer say or doesn't say.

But like I said, how can zeus be the source of life when he had parent? His position was more like that of the president of Nigeria. Same with the other mythical gods- they were all positional leaders that's why they all have portfolios

In my view, the term God is meaningless. It is jargon. It is like asking for where Zebraia is.

With the right quantity of Faith, Zeus and other Gods can easily play the role of source of life.

Kay17:


So you accept God is nothing?

That is not my statement or stand. My point is simple, if you can't define something or someone; you can't claim that they don't exist. For example; can you tell me what is energy?

finofaya

I said that God is neither proven nor disproved. Where did you see "can't"?

What is the difference between that and my statement?

I don't get. What is not what?

My point here is that there are several things we all believe in that we can't explain or prove. So, your statement that there is no evidence of God doesn't hold water

How do you know the bolded?

I told you, the Christian God as evidenced in the Bible

Does it matter to God what he is or does it not? And do you agree that God might be evil?

Of course it matters - it matters what He says, what He does, what He said He will do etc. Depending on how you define evil - I believe God is supreme

Any issue that involves looking deep into the nature of God. Eg the issue of freewill v omniscience/omnipotence. They have an answer to any such issue, which is usually nothing more than "just take it on faith".

You want the freewill and ominiscience/omnipotence aspect of God to be proven in a lab?

They have done so in the past. They still do so in some parts of the world. Muslims too. Besides there are means of coercion other than outright violence, eg open or subtle disapproval/contempt.

I was careful to confine my statement to Christendom only and didn't mention any other faiths. I am interested in you showing me in the Bible where the Christian God teaches the subjugation of non-believers because they don't believe in Him and as a result, Christians are taught to do the same today? Your subtle disapproval/contempt statement is relative; it is common everywhere, whether in religion or amongst atheist. I am sure you would disapprove if your son was an acute alcoholic and a murderer.

You think the Invisible Pink Unicorn is unreasonable, don't you?

I am not saying it's unreasonable - my stance is simple: Alot of people claim they are God, we have a place for them - the mental hospital. The claim of God has to pass several tests. If you were raising the dead, healing the sick, curing world hunger, and performing outstanding meta-physical events - I probably will take you pretty serious

For most people, the most potent reason why they dislike, say, homosexuality is religious in nature. Would you then say homosexuals are not being compelled to conform to the religious notions of others when being gay is frowned upon and even criminalized?

Again, I can't speak of most people nor their faith; I can give you my concept of God as I understand it. The issue with homosexuals is that they want to flaunt it and everyone should accept it. For me, it has no little religious bearing - I can't see how two men can give birth to a child. Also, the claim that homosexuals are born like that hasn't been proven scientifically. So, if you prefer a mans ass to that of a woman; that is your cup of tea. I think they have the right to live and love.

alexis: There are several reasons; the discussion will be if you consider them tenable or not . I am willing to employ simple logic and reasoning to engage you.

Thanks man.

Okay, let me first ask you a question - What is consciousness?

Are you serious? Okay o. Here's a borrowed definition that I don't fault: consciousness is the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.

finofaya

What is consciousness?

finofaya

Thanks man.

No shaking

Are you serious? Okay o. Here's a borrowed definition that I don't fault: consciousness is the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.

I didn't ask you to define it - I said what is it?

alexis: What is the difference between that and my statement?

The difference is that I didn't say that God cannot be proven.

My point here is that there are several things we all believe in that we can't explain or prove. So, your statement that there is no evidence of God doesn't hold water

What things? Anyway, if God is one thing that we cannot prove, it is correct to say that there is no evidence for him.

I told you, the Christian God as evidenced in the Bible

Have you given it any thought yourself, or do you just take the bible's word for it?

Of course it matters - it matters what He says, what He does, what He said He will do etc. Depending on how you define evil - I believe God is supreme

I don't think it matters to him. As long as he is our creator, he can have whatever other attributes. Like you say, he is supreme. It is immaterial to his nature if he is for example, jealousy prone or known to keep grudges.

You want the freewill and ominiscience/omnipotence aspect of God to be proven in a lab?

I'm not talking about proof of them, but of the contradictions they entail. Our freewill against Gods infinite knowledge and power.

I was careful to confine my statement to Christendom only and didn't mention any other faiths. I am interested in you showing me in the Bible where the Christian God teaches the subjugation of non-believers because they don't believe in Him and as a result, Christians are taught to do the same today? Your subtle disapproval/contempt statement is relative; it is common everywhere, whether in religion or amongst atheist. I am sure you would disapprove if your son was an acute alcoholic and a murderer.

Christianity is not the only religion there is. Anyway, the bible requires you to kill unbelievers. See Exodus 22:20.

The disapproval I mean is one which is grounded on religious injunctions. That is, you are disapproved of solely because you either do or avoid doing something that another's religion enjoins you to avoid or to do.

I am not saying it's unreasonable - my stance is simple: Alot of people claim they are God, we have a place for them - the mental hospital.

Lol.

The claim of God has to pass several tests. If you were raising the dead, healing the sick, curing world hunger, and performing outstanding meta-physical events - I probably will take you pretty serious

This is what I mean when I say that you expect God to act according to your expectations. Isn't it possible that God would rather do something else?

Again, I can't speak of most people nor their faith; I can give you my concept of God as I understand it. The issue with homosexuals is that they want to flaunt it and everyone should accept it. For me, it has no little religious bearing - I can't see how two men can give birth to a child. Also, the claim that homosexuals are born like that hasn't been proven scientifically. So, if you prefer a mans Bottom to that of a woman; that is your cup of tea. I think they have the right to live and love.

It was just an example, let's not go into the pros and cons of it here. The point I was trying to pass across is that most people discriminate against gays based on biblical injunctions. Without religion, there really is no good reason to hate them. We do not dislike other people that do not reproduce, why gays?

alexis:

I didn't ask you to define it - I said what is it?

I don't quite follow. It is what the definition says it is.

Kay17:


In my view, the term God is meaningless. It is jargon. It is like asking for where Zebraia is.

With the right quantity of Faith, Zeus and other Gods can easily play the role of source of life.

you see, dis is the challenge. It is good that it is only in your terms that God is meaningless. That means you have work to do.

Why not take out time to investigate if God truly exist? I mean the over 4billion people that believe in God, can't all be wrong na! Atleast they are not all illiterate.

finofaya:


I don't quite follow. It is what the definition says it is.

Definition is a label that describes consciousness but it doesn't explain it or tells us what it actually is. I am a human being but that doesn't tell you anything about who I am.

Going further - what actually is consciousness? Can you see it? Can you measure or test for it in a lab? What tangible evidence is there or consciousness?

alexis:


Definition is a label that describes consciousness but it doesn't explain it or tells us what it actually is. I am a human being but that doesn't tell you anything about who I am.

Going further - what actually is consciousness? Can you see it? Can you measure or test for it in a lab? What tangible evidence is there or consciousness?

You think therefore you are. And you are aware that you are. That is the proof of consciousness.

finofaya

The difference is that I didn't say that God cannot be proven.

So, if God can be proven; what is the fuss all about?

What things? Anyway, if God is one thing that we cannot prove, it is correct to say that there is no evidence for him.

You just said above that God can be proven but you are saying her that we cannot prove Him again. Remember the question I asked you earlier? What is consciousness? Can you prove it?

Have you given it any thought yourself, or do you just take the bible's word for it?

Of course I have. I don't believe the Bible because it said so. I will speak authoritatively for the New Testament. Every single claim made in the new testament can be traced to the earliest manuscripts that were used to compile the Bible. So, I take the New Testament account word for it because it tallies up with history which can be traced and verified. I visited the new testament museum in the US where some of the earliest manuscripts dating back to the 2nd century were compared with what we have in the present day Bible; if you re-construct them word for word; you will have about 99.6% accuracy to what you have in the Bible.

I don't think it matters to him. As long as he is our creator, he can have whatever other attributes. Like you say, he is supreme. It is immaterial to his nature if he is for example, jealousy prone or known to keep grudges.

God attributes is what He describes for us. For example, He claims that He will never lie. So, if there is evidence that He lies; then He is going against His nature and attribute.

I'm not talking about proof of them, but of the contradictions they entail. Our freewill against Gods infinite knowledge and power.

You want a world where we are all robots? Will you like your kids to do everything and anything you say no matter what you tell them to do?

Christianity is not the only religion there is. Anyway, the bible requires you to kill unbelievers. See Exodus 22:20.

Please read the Bible some more for more understanding. These are the laws set aside by Moses for the children of Israel. There is no where it claims that if you don't accept Judaism or Christianity; you should be killed and teaches Christians should do the same. Please be a lil more honest

The disapproval I mean is one which is grounded on religious injunctions. That is, you are disapproved of solely because you either do or avoid doing something that another's religion enjoins you to avoid or to do.

There is no denying that and you are right. People follow the teachings of their religions. It is always good to give deep thoughts about the ideas and freedoms we want to endorse. For example, a man and a man can't produce a child yet they want to have the right to adopt a child. Going further, if 90% of the world were homosexuals; how long would we exist as a culture and race? These are not religious questions but rather grass-root questions that we should not be ashamed of discussing.

Lol.

For real man

This is what I mean when I say that you expect God to act according to your expectations. Isn't it possible that God would rather do something else?

It is not my expectation Bros. God has set His expectations of what He wants from me - Treat others as you expect to be treated - that is the golden rule in the Bible.

It was just an example, let's not go into the pros and cons of it here. The point I was trying to pass across is that most people discriminate against gays based on biblical injunctions. Without religion, there really is no good reason to hate them. We do not dislike other people that do not reproduce, why gays?

The Bible doesn't teach hate for gays Bros - the act of homosexuality is what the Bible discourages.

finofaya:


You think therefore you are. And you are aware that you are. That is the proof of consciousness.

I exist whether I think or not - that doesn't prove consciousness. I know that I am black has nothing to do with consciousness either. My point is simple - the evidence of consciousness is subjective and is possibly not realistic either. To a scientist, it doesn't exist and can't be proven in a lab. So, if you use the standard of proving consciousness; you should know that I can use the same standard to prove God

alexis:


I exist whether I think or not - that doesn't prove consciousness. I know that I am black has nothing to do with consciousness either. My point is simple - the evidence of consciousness is subjective and is possibly not realistic either. To a scientist, it doesn't exist and can't be proven in a lab. So, if you use the standard of proving consciousness; you should know that I can use the same standard to prove God

.cool....remember to explain to me how the contradiction "just and merciful" go hand in hand with your "god" proof...

alexis: So, if God can be proven; what is the fuss all about?

The fuss is about how God has not been proven and yet people act as if he has. You have built a system on him, when you cannot demonstrate that he exists.

You just said above that God can be proven but you are saying her that we cannot prove Him again. Remember the question I asked you earlier? What is consciousness? Can you prove it?

You said that there are things that we all believe in even tho we cannot prove them. I then said that if God is one of those things, it would be correct to say that there is no evidence for God. If there were evidence, we would prove him at once, wouldn't we?

Of course I have. I don't believe the Bible because it said so. I will speak authoritatively for the New Testament. Every single claim made in the new testament can be traced to the earliest manuscripts that were used to compile the Bible. So, I take the New Testament account word for it because it tallies up with history which can be traced and verified. I visited the new testament museum in the US where some of the earliest manuscripts dating back to the 2nd century were compared with what we have in the present day Bible; if you re-construct them word for word; you will have about 99.6% accuracy to what you have in the Bible.

That's some good work, but what you have said amounts to cross checking the bible with itself. I meant you, alexis, have you given the issue of God being principled any thought yourself? You know we have to validate religious books with our observations of the world. If we validated a religious book with itself, every religious book would be valid. For the religious book to be true, whatever it states must be obtainable in reality so that you could verify it by looking at reality. Haven't you wondered how people came to know God before the bible was written? The things that you see in the bible must have been there for them to see, even without the bible. So look outside the bible and try to see how principled God is.

God attributes is what He describes for us. For example, He claims that He will never lie. So, if there is evidence that He lies; then He is going against His nature and attribute.

Lol. If he says that he doesn't lie, and you see evidence that he has lied, it means that he was being true his nature when he lied by saying that he doesn't lie.

You want a world where we are all robots? Will you like your kids to do everything and anything you say no matter what you tell them to do?

What makes your life worth living; free will or freedom from pain? Any human being who lacks free will but who is guaranteed not to ever experience suffering will live a happier life than you. Besides, the issue is not whether we should have free will, but whether we can have free will when we were made by an all powerful God who has forseen everything we are going to do and will not hesitate to change our paths.

Please read the Bible some more for more understanding. These are the laws set aside by Moses for the children of Israel. There is no where it claims that if you don't accept Judaism or Christianity; you should be killed and teaches Christians should do the same. Please be a lil more honest

Read Exodus 22:20. I didn't make it up. The 10 commandments come from the old testament too, so you shouldn't pick one law out of the OT and leave out the other.

There is no denying that and you are right. People follow the teachings of their religions. It is always good to give deep thoughts about the ideas and freedoms we want to endorse. For example, a man and a man can't produce a child yet they want to have the right to adopt a child. Going further, if 90% of the world were homosexuals; how long would we exist as a culture and race? These are not religious questions but rather grass-root questions that we should not be ashamed of discussing.

Thanks for the honesty, really. Let's not add homosexuality to this discussion just yet.

It is not my expectation Bros. God has set His expectations of what He wants from me - Treat others as you expect to be treated - that is the golden rule in the Bible.

What I was hoping you would see is that God does not have to obey any rules.

The Bible doesn't teach hate for gays Bros - the act of homosexuality is what the Bible discourages.

You are forgetting the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, where homosexuals were rewarded with death.

davien:
.cool....remember to explain to me how the contradiction "just and merciful" go hand in hand with your "god" proof...

Cool what?

alexis: I exist whether I think or not - that doesn't prove consciousness. I know that I am black has nothing to do with consciousness either.

I said "you are aware that you are". That is the proof, bro. The statement "I exist" suffices also. If consciousness did not exist, nothing could be aware of anything.

My point is simple - the evidence of consciousness is subjective and is possibly not realistic either. To a scientist, it doesn't exist and can't be proven in a lab.

You prove consciousness every time you think, feel, perceive etc. Its funny, really. Every time you try to prove it, you have proven it. Every time you try to disprove it, you have proven it. When you decide to go to the lab to prove it, you have proven it. When you say that it is subjective, you have proven it. It's basically all up in your face. What is subjective about consciousness? Does it exist for some people and not others or what?

You know, saying that consciousness is subjective ,i.e., not actually true, means that everything that is dependent on consciousness, such as your belief in God, is equally untrue.

So, if you use the standard of proving consciousness; you should know that I can use the same standard to prove God

Frankly, I'd love to see that proof.

finofaya

The fuss is about how God has not been proven and yet people act as if he has. You have built a system on him, when you cannot demonstrate that he exists.

The contention is on the demonstration you want. Remember, you tried to prove consciousness yet didn't come close. However, you still believe it exist. Am I to write you off as not being serious since you apply one standard to prove consciousness but refuse to use the same standard to prove God.

You said that there are things that we all believe in even tho we cannot prove them. I then said that if God is one of those things, it would be correct to say that there is no evidence for God. If there were evidence, we would prove him at once, wouldn't we?

Again, it's the criteria of evidence. In your evidence of consciousness, it was your awareness and knowledge of awareness; while that is not tangible evidence, it is inherent knowledge that confirms consciousness exist

That's some good work, but what you have said amounts to cross checking the bible with itself. I meant you, alexis, have you given the issue of God being principled any thought yourself? You know we have to validate religious books with our observations of the world. If we validated a religious book with itself, every religious book would be valid. For the religious book to be true, whatever it states must be obtainable in reality so that you could verify it by looking at reality. Haven't you wondered how people came to know God before the bible was written? The things that you see in the bible must have been there for them to see, even without the bible. So look outside the bible and try to see how principled God is.

It amounts to verifying the contents of the Bible with earlier documents that predates the Bible. For example, the Bible claims Jesus was born and was later crucified. You have to verify that by historical documents such as the Roman accounts. Most importantly, you have to cross reference it with multiple independent accounts to confirm if the event is true as described in the Bible.

Lol. If he says that he doesn't lie, and you see evidence that he has lied, it means that he was being true his nature when he lied by saying that he doesn't lie.

That is the point, if I see evidence He lied then I know the God as He describe Himself is arbitrary and has gone against His own principles

What makes your life worth living; free will or freedom from pain? Any human being who lacks free will but who is guaranteed not to ever experience suffering will live a happier life than you. Besides, the issue is not whether we should have free will, but whether we can have free will when we were made by an all powerful God who has forseen everything we are going to do and will not hesitate to change our paths.

If we all didn't have free will and programmed as robots, we will not be having this discussion. You will keeping looping and confirming that God is Almighty and even when your hand is cut off; you will have no idea of pain even when you are in pain. You will not have emotions, you probably will have kids with your mother (no harm intended). I will choose free will any day

Read Exodus 22:20. I didn't make it up. The 10 commandments come from the old testament too, so you shouldn't pick one law out of the OT and leave out the other.

No one said you made it up. I am saying that verse was addressing Israelites. There is no where there that it was taught to enforce it on non-jews. Also, the laws of Moses are different from the law of God (10 commandments)

Thanks for the honesty, really. Let's not add homosexuality to this discussion just yet.

Not my intention

What I was hoping you would see is that God does not have to obey any rules.

By principle He does

You are forgetting the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, where homosexuals were rewarded with death.

Don't be hasty to put words in the Bible mouth; read Ezekiel 16:49-50

finofaya

I said "you are aware that you are". That is the proof, bro. The statement "I exist" suffices also. If consciousness did not exist, nothing could be aware of anything.

It doesn't prove consciousness. Having experiences is a measurement of what consciousness is but you don't know what it is. Assuming you are giving me a verbal proof of consciousness - will a verbal proof of God be enough as well?

You prove consciousness every time you think, feel, perceive etc. Its funny, really. Every time you try to prove it, you have proven it. Every time you try to disprove it, you have proven it. When you decide to go to the lab to prove it, you have proven it. When you say that it is subjective, you have proven it. It's basically all up in your face. What is subjective about consciousness? Does it exist for some people and not others or what?

Again, I am not talking about the experiences or effects of consciousness; that is all you have explained - I am asking you what it is?

You know, saying that consciousness is subjective ,i.e., not actually true, means that everything that is dependent on consciousness, such as your belief in God, is equally untrue.

It is subjective: we see different things, think different thoughts, feel different emotions, hold different values. All you are doing is saying consciousness proof is because we are aware. You are yet to tell me what it is; what is it's origin?

alexis:
finofaya



It doesn't prove consciousness. Having experiences is a measurement of what consciousness is but you don't know what it is. Assuming you are giving me a verbal proof of consciousness - will a verbal proof of God be enough as well?



Again, I am not talking about the experiences or effects of consciousness; that is all you have explained - I am asking you what it is?



It is subjective: we see different things, think different thoughts, feel different emotions, hold different values. All you are doing is saying consciousness proof is because we are aware. You are yet to tell me what it is; what is it's origin?

Chairman, good night.

When you said that your being here, thinking, is not proof that you are conscious, I knew you were lost. Please go and research these issues properly. Serious people don't even ask for proof that consciousness exists. You can confirm for yourself. I felt I should oblige you and this is what you are saying.

finofaya:


Chairman, good night.

When you said that your being here, thinking, is not proof that you are conscious, I knew you were lost. Please go and research these issues properly. Serious people don't even ask for proof that consciousness exists. You can confirm for yourself. I felt I should oblige you and this is what you are saying.

Bros, don't mis-represent me. Please find out the origins of consciousness and provide tangible proof that it exist - when you have; then come back and let us discuss your evidence of God

alexis:


I exist whether I think or not - that doesn't prove consciousness. I know that I am black has nothing to do with consciousness either. My point is simple - the evidence of consciousness is subjective and is possibly not realistic either. To a scientist, it doesn't exist and can't be proven in a lab. So, if you use the standard of proving consciousness; you should know that I can use the same standard to prove God

The mere fact that you're writing all of this is evidence enough that your God doesn't exist.

Why is he making you his minister of defence if both of us were created by him?

Does that make sense to you? Don't you think he would have spoken for himself, like he did in the biblical records?

The whole thing is a fabrication designed out of our fear of death.

Can you imagine what the experience of death must have felt like to a human being from antiquity?

They had to make up something.

Weah96

The mere fact that you're writing all of this is evidence enough that your God doesn't exist.

Coming from someone that takes substance to induce experiences with fairies . Need I say more?

Why is he making you his minister of defence if both of us were created by him?

Just the same way you think He doesn't exist is the same way I think He does. Besides, are you not all knowing to claim that God doesn't exist?

Does that make sense to you? Don't you think he would have spoken for himself, like he did in the biblical records?

The answer is quite simple but for the fool; it can be quite complicated. The very same question had been asked multiple times and by your likes thousands of years ago:

John 10:24-27:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The whole thing is a fabrication designed out of our fear of death.

Again, coming from someone that takes substance to induce meta-physical experiences. Let me give a discussion between a Physics professor and some of his students on the same subject:

Does evil exist?

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything? The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

So, I am not going to argue with you since you are taking an absolute stance. In Einstein words:

We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God

Can you imagine what the experience of death must have felt like to a human being from antiquity? They had to make up something

When you die and IF you ever come back - please tell us your experience on death.

alexis:
Weah96



Coming from someone that takes substance to induce experiences with fairies . Need I say more?



Just the same way you think He doesn't exist is the same way I think He does. Besides, are you not all knowing to claim that God doesn't exist?



The answer is quite simple but for the fool; it can be quite complicated. The very same question had been asked multiple times and by your likes thousands of years ago:

John 10:24-27:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Do you understand the relationship between a flock of sheep and a shepherd?

And what does tripping have to do with anything? Were the writers of the bible not hardcore drug addicts?

Weah96:


The mere fact that you're writing all of this is evidence enough that your God doesn't exist.

Why is he making you his minister of defence if both of us were created by him?

Does that make sense to you? Don't you think he would have spoken for himself, like he did in the biblical records?

The whole thing is a fabrication designed out of our fear of death.

Can you imagine what the experience of death must have felt like to a human being from antiquity?

They had to make up something.

come on na! You could have done better than this. He wouldn't have answered if he wasn't asked.

A fabrication you said! Yet this fabricated story is still gaining grounds thousands of years after. Isn't that suppose to give you a clue that there could be more to the stories about the existence of God? I mean, knowledge has increased over the years yet it hasn't been able to disprove this "fabricated" stories.

How comes people still die if the stories were fabricated because if fear of death? The mere fact that they were worshippers or religious, should have kept them from death or don't you think so?

Faith doesn't operate in the sense realm. Trying to understand God at the level of the mind or reasoning is just impossible.

I see people trying to make God predictive or stereotyped like some calculations. It doesn't work that way.

God operates in the Spirit realm and to connect, it has to be a spirit-spirit based relationship.

Even though physical activities and manifestions are used to relate to God, it is still a spirit born relationship.

How can you use your thought(which is limited) to try to figure out a Divine being that is said to be supreme?

Someone would call it hallucination! But how can it be hallucination when it doesn't occur in the mind? It is not thought out.

Your mind is as big as the information available to it or the information it has been exposed to.

Why not try to expand your knowledge by doing some further research? Take a look around, what you see around should have a source na? And if it does, what do you call that source?