₦airaland Forum

#SundaySpecial
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Good day, everybody. My name is Eric Arthur and I am your host on this programme. *crowd cheers*
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The subject matter before us is very interesting. It might be annoying to some. Well, it depends on how you view it. Note, however, that we earthlings do not have all the answers we need or seek. Even our holy books do not tell us everything we may want to know. Some people are usually scared to investigate into these matters because of fear(s) about being too inquisitive before God. I am/was made to believe that we serve a God who deals not with what we speak out, but with what is in our hearts. So what is the difference between having these curiosity(ies) in our hearts and when we actually act on the curiosity(ies)? You think God doesn't know that you're curious? What kind of person does it make God if He gets angered by your curiosity? Or plans to destroy you if you say it out, or even try to find answers? Com'on, I am/was made to believe that our God is a loving God who is not wicked. So, feel free, you're safe.
God wants you to have answers, however, it may not be possible for him to sit with you and start telling you stories of billions of decades. Note also that ignorance is a disease. The devil can use your ignorance against you. Imagine you do not know that it is a sin to worship any image, no matter your intentions. If a messenger of the devil tells you to carve an image and worship it so that you'll have direct contact with the almighty God, would you? Yes you would, if you didnt know that God doesnt support this. So, yes, its good to know. Search for answers, but do this in a good and decent way. Be moral. Make sure your willingness to get answers does not skew your mentality. Remember that you are serving God and that you'll always serve Him, but you just need some answers. Thats a safe way to search.
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Let's proceed.
Now, with that said. We all know that the bible and Quran arn't complete (shoot me ). These gaps in knowledge are the major basis for Atheists in the world today. I, personally believe atheists are scared. They cant just imagine someone watching all their activities. Everything they do in secret, etc. They read the bible to find 'mistakes', or places that simply do not make sense. My brother, if you look at a group of dogs with the intention of seeing cattles, sooner or later, you'll start seeing horns on their heads.
*smiles*

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So,
Who is Jesus Christ? Ofcourse we've all heard that he is the 'son of God' who came down to earth to die for our sins. He was born out of a virgin and his earthly father was a carpenter. He performed alot of miracles. However, who WAS he? And maybe who IS he?
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By ''the son of God'', what does the bible really mean? What do our preachers really mean?
Let me start by giving alternative views of people about who Jesus is.
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1. Atheists believe Jesus is a faboo, and he never really existed.
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2. Some believe he was the first angel to be created and that's why he is referred to as ''the first born son''. This is because the angels are regarded as 'sons of God'.

3. Some believe that Jesus is a part of the trinity. The father the son and the holy spirit, and that they cannot be separated. These set of people will tell you that Jesus is God, in a way.

4. I was talking with a guy once, and he said Jesus is God's earthly form. He said that when God is on earth, He is Jesus. lol

5. Jesus is not an angel nor an heavenly body, he is merely a prophet. This is what muslims will tell you. Although I personally believe that muslims say this to make sure that christianity is not seen as superior to Islam in any way. If Mohammed was just a prophet, what gives Jesus the right to be called Son of God? I think thats what its all about.

6. Some people believe that Jesus is not an angel, however he is an heavenly body. He is more than just an angel.

7. Some people believe that we earthlings only know about Jehovah God. That like the greek mythology, Jehovah has others of his kind and Jehovah was just the one who created earth. They believe that Jesus might be an actual biological son of Jehovah.
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What do you think?
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The view i'd like to discuss here is the part about Jesus being the Arch-Angel Michael. Crazy, right? But let's proceed.
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To understand the bible, sometimes we have to make deductions or even conclusions about some other things from the information that the bible does provide.
For example, who said masturbation is a sin? We can make deduction that since God frowns at sexual immorality, then masturbation could also be a sin. Why dont we see the police and soldiers killing of criminals as sins? Why isn't the guilt there? Maybe this is because there were several killings in the bible which were thought to be 'right' or just, so we now believe that if a killing is done for just cause, there is no actual sin. Moses killed someone before he ran away from Egypt, but no big deal was made about it, so?

This article is quite long and we might not be able to post all here. However, we will try to summarize everything here for your reading convinience. If you'd like more information, visit the main post http://www.scamfender.com/2014/11/who-was-jesus-before-earth-arch-angel_36.html?m=1 .

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Stay tuned for updates here.
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Moses killed someone before he ran away from Egypt, but no big deal was made about it, so?
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Why is it possible for Jesus to be Arch-angel Michael? Why do I think so? Like I'll say, let's proceed.
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First of all, Jesus was never 'mentioned in heaven' before the new testament, yet he is regarded as God's 'first born son'. He never crossed paths with arch-angel Michael through-out the bible's story line too. Ever wondered why Superman never crossed paths with Clark Kent? Or Spiderman with Peter Parker? Maybe it's because they are the same person? Get?
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So let's go into a some details.
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Credits :
1. creationscienceprophecy.com
2. cybarmathicks incorporation.
3. Scamfender group. scamfender.com
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Okay now,
some detail:
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In the book of Daniel, angel Gabriel explained to Daniel how he was rescued from the hands of the Devil and his demons who didn't want him to diliver God's message to Daniel. He was rescued by Michael. This shows Michael's power. Remember, this was against the devil himself.
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''But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.'' - Daniel 10:12-13
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Also, michael is called ''one of the chief princes''. Then here is is called Prince. Your Prince.
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"But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.''- Daniel 10: 20-21
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Going further, we see Michael who is called the great prince, standing up, and when he does a time of trouble starts and God's people are delivered.
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Why is it that God's people are delivered when Michael stands up? Why not God or Jesus? And why is Michael described as standing for the children of thy people? Look:

''At that time Michael shall stand up,The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

...And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

...Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.'' Daniel 12:1-3
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In Jude we see Michael confronting Satan when Moses was resurrected. Many people think of Michael as being just an angel. If this is true then why would an angel be used in such a direct confrontation as to confront Satan? Why shouldn't God or Jesus be doing these important confrontations? Finally in the book of Revelation, we see that there is a war in heaven. The opposing sides are described as Michael and his angels against the dragon which we know to be Satan and his angels. The war in heaven is very important. Why isn't God or Jesus taking part in the war. Why are the angels described as being Michael's angels and not God's or Christ's angels? ''And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought'' ''And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.'' Revelation 12:7
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Michael is the archangel, the chief of the angels. He is described as one of the chief princes and our prince. When He stands up, things happen. He is described as standing for the children of thy people. So when He stands, there is a time of trouble that results in God's people being delivered, every one who's name if found written in the book. He contends directly against Satan and the angels in heaven are described as being Michael's angels. So, I want to ask you a question. Because Michael does things that we might think God or Jesus should be doing: Is it possible that Michael could be Jesus? We need to understand what the Bible says. Jesus is Divine just like the Father. Also, Jesus said He was the Son of God several times. The Jews understood Him clearly, they saw that Jesus was saying He was equal with God so they picked up stones to stone Him!
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Jesus also accepted worship when He was on earth! Even the angels in Heaven did not accept worship. _
In the last book of the Bible, John was stopped from worshiping an angel who was in front of him: ''And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy''- Revelation 19:10
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Yet many times, Jesus accepted the worship of those around Him.Before we proceed, it it worth mentioning that some people might use these points to argue that Jesus is God. This, I do not believe. The bible clearly differentiates them. However, the bible does not tell us what kind of family God has. We know that Jesus or the lamb would have a wife. From where?

Lazy to read? Yes, that is why we've cut out alot (if you want to read all the details, you can go to the site here http://www.scamfender.com/2014/11/who-was-jesus-before-earth-arch-angel_36.html?m=1 ) though.

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But we've brought down this that might interest you... Wait for it...wait for it...
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However, the bible does not tell us what kind of family God has. We know that Jesus or the lamb would have a wife. From where?
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These are difficult questions. It shows that there is more to the heavenly home that God, Jesus and Angels. Get me? If anybody has answers to that, please do not hesitate to share. Let's move on.
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Jesus came to die for our sins and that we are saved through the shedding of His Blood. An angel could not do this for us. So, with this thought in mind, that Jesus is not a created being, but that He is fully divine as is the Father. Let's get back to Michael. I have been looking at the statements on Michael and I see evidence suggesting that Jesus could have been known as Michael in heaven, before He came to Earth as Christ. Is it possible that Michael could be Jesus Christ? In other words: Is Michael a divine being, and not really an actual angel, because He is really Jesus Christ the Son of God? Names in the bible are not for fun. Michael means ''one who is like God''. There is a touch of ''divine'' in that. Get the drift? Now, the main part that connects them is here. During the final fight.
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''Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. Thessalonians 4:16''
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We see two words there. ''The Lord'' and ''Arch-Angel''. Now, the lord is shouting with an Arch-Angel's voice. Why? Maybe its just because he is an Arch-Angel; Michael. Some have argued that its the arch-angel that's shouting, and the Lord is just coming down. Some have argued that its both of them shouting. The most logical conclusion is that the Arch-angel is the lord, who is shouting. The Arch-Angel, Michael, who leads the army against the devil (a task christians believe Jesus would do) is shouting and coming down with such force. That says something. JESUS IS MICHAEL. Or wait, let me rephrase that, JESUS MIGHT BE MICHAEL. What do you say?

Note: the time ''God'' came to visit Abraham, in the company of two other angels, it could have been Jesus, not God himself. Note that the bible once referred to Jesus as God. The bible also referred to both as ''Lord''. Therefore, we dont know who came to see Abraham. Maybe God, maybe Jesus/Michael. However, because Jesus was not mentioned at all before that point in the bible, i'll stick to it being God. The frequent use of 'Lord' for both of them in the bible has misled alot of christians into thinking they are one and the same. However, if you can get your hands on early greek and other versions of the bible, you'd be able to clearly differentiate them.
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So, what do you think? Who was Jesus before earth?
I am Eric Arthur.
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Once again, credits:
1. Scamfender group (a group of diverse individuals), the world's first personal assistant website (PAW). scamfender.com
2. Cybarmathicks concepts
3. creationscienceprophecy.com

...front seat

My problem with Muslims and the quran. The major flaw. How will they say jesus is an ordinary prophet. What an insult. How will a Virgin give birth to a prophet and after. She is still a Virgin until Joseph. Even his birth was miraculous. And the spirit of God even said this is my son and............

tomiobj:
My problem with Muslims and the quran. The major flaw. How will they say jesus is an ordinary prophet. What an insult. How will a Virgin give birth to a prophet and after. She is still a Virgin until Joseph. Even his birth was miraculous. And the spirit of God even said this is my son and............

lmao. Muslim folks will come and eat you up now.

JESUS WAS JEHOVAH BEFORE EARTH

briantext:
JESUS WAS JEHOVAH BEFORE EARTH

you believe in the trinity, then?

briantext:
JESUS WAS JEHOVAH BEFORE EARTH

show me a place in the bible Where Jesus Was called an Angel.

Scamfender:
you believe in the trinity, then?

I don't

lanxlot:
show me a place in the bible Where Jesus Was called an Angel.

Jesus is the ancient Jehovah you have been hearing of in the old testament.... Not an Angel

briantext:
Jesus is the ancient Jehovah you have been hearing of in the old testament.... Not an Angel

what do you have as proof? Any biblical evidence?

briantext:
Jesus is the ancient Jehovah you have been hearing of in the old testament.... Not an Angel

so you are saying that Jehovah was replaced by Jesus?

Mathicks:
so you are saying that Jehovah was replaced by Jesus?

No am saying that Jehovah came down as Jesus

briantext:
No am saying that Jehovah came down as Jesus

then how would you explain who Jesus was always praying to? Who was he talking to when he said ''let this cup pass over me''? Who did he refer to as his Father?

Scamfender:
what do you have as proof? Any biblical evidence?

I have many bible evidence but it's just that I'm not good at typing long passages

Take for example
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
And also,
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory
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It's conplicated sha, just pray and ask the Holy Spirit for Guardians.
It's mysterious

JESUS CREATED ?
Jehovah's Witness theology says that Jesus is merely the first creation
of God. This page examines Jehovah's Witness claims used to support
their doctrine and the Bible scriptures that contradict this theology.

Is Jesus the first created being of God? Jehovah's Witness theology claims that Jesus Christ was God's first creation. The claim is supported by two Bible verses, Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14. Let's first look at these verses to see what they really s

Colossians 1:15

Ironically, Jehovah's Witnesses quote a verse from one of the chapters
of the Bible that makes one of the strongest cases for the deity of Jesus Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(Colossians 1:15) The Greek word, prōtotokos, translated "firstborn" is not a noun, but an adjective. If it were really referring to being born, the verse is theologically incorrect. Adam was the firstborn man of creation
(although he wasn't really born). Cain was actually the first to be
actually born into the creation. Jesus was not born until thousands of
year later. The word "firstborn" in this verse does not refer to a
physical birth, but refers to Jesus' position to inherit the creation. In
Jewish law, the firstborn inherited the lion's share of his father's estate. Jesus is to inherit the creation. It has nothing to do with being created.
Verse 18 from this chapter of Colossians goes on to directly contradict Jesus being created describing Him as existing in "the beginning." This same verse describes Jesus as being the "firstborn from the dead" and
defines Jesus as having "first place in everything," demonstrating that
"firstborn" refers to position and not creation. The scriptures, and Jesus Himself, affirmed that He was heir to the
creation: For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or
authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
(Colossians 1:16) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him
you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and
authority; (Colossians 2:9-10) in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed
heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. (Hebrews 1:2) YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in
subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.
But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. (Hebrews 2: More Examples... Jesus Himself indicated that He was the heir of all creation through His parable of the vineyard (Matthew 21:33-44). In the parable, Jesus represents the heir of the vineyard, who is killed by the workers. Jesus
said that he would be the cornerstone which was rejected by the
builders. Theologically, firstborn makes no sense except as the heir of
creation.

Revelation 3:14

The second verse given to support the idea that Jesus was created is
below: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful
and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
(Revelation 3:14) The problem with this verse is that "beginning" does not refer to Jesus'
creation. The Greek word arche means "first in position" or "leader". Alternate meanings include "origin" or "cause." So, in this verse, Jesus is presenting His authority over creation as Creator. In essence, He is
saying that you had better listen to what I say, because I am the boss
and I am the cause of the creation. So, in actuality, the verse strongly
argues against the Jehovah's Witnesses theology that Jesus was just
"God's secretary." Other verses from the Bible confirm that Jesus is the beginning of
creation, since He created everything: All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing
came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or
authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
(Colossians 1:16) So, the two verses cited by by Jehovah's Witnesses have nothing to do
with the topic of Jesus' origin. The first is taken out of the context of
the chapter, which clearly defines "firstborn" as first in position. The
second assumes an incorrect meaning for the English translation of the
original Greek text.

VERSES CONFIRMING JESUS IS UNCREATED

Other obvious verses from the Bible do speak of Jesus' lack of origin: For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the
government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13: The prophecy of Jesus Christ found in Isaiah indicates that Jesus is the Mighty God who is the Eternal Father (i.e., eternal indicates that He is
not created). John 1:1 indicates that Jesus is God, who was present in the beginning (again, indicating that Jesus was not created). The third
verse comes from Hebrews, which states that Jesus is the same
yesterday and today and forever. Obviously, if Jesus were created, this
verse could not be true. Philippians tells us explicitly how Jesus is the eternal God who took on
the form of a man: ...Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not
regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied
Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the
likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7) The idea that Jesus was created is vigorously contradicted by the Bible.
It is not a minor theological concept. Jesus is God and is to be worshipped as such. Those who fail to worship Him will bow the knee (Philippians 2:10) before being sent off in eternal judgment. For more information on Jesus' claim to being God, see Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?.

CONCLUSION:
Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus Christ is the first of God's creations. However, the verses they use to support such theology say
no such thing. In addition, verses from Isaiah, John, and Hebrews
indicate that Jesus was, and always has been, God and has remained
the same from the beginning of time and throughout eternity.

Thank you.

briantext:
Take for example
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
And also,
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory
.
It's conplicated sha, just pray and ask the Holy Spirit for Guardians.
It's mysterious

Okay, i understand you. However, do you know that the word 'Lord' is used for both God and Jesus in the bible? There was a place in the bible where Jesus was called 'God'. This does not translate to Jesus being God, however. God came down once to see Abraham, in a human vessel, i think. But, is it possible for God to pray to God? We all know Jesus was praying to God. Why will God die to appease God? And take away our sins..?.. Why will God call himself his own father?

Mathicks:
Okay, i understand you. However, do you know that the word 'Lord' is used for both God and Jesus in the bible? There was a place in the bible where Jesus was called 'God'. This does not translate to Jesus being God, however. God came down once to see Abraham, in a human vessel, i think. But, is it possible for God to pray to God? We all know Jesus was praying to God. Why will God die to appease God? And take away our sins..?.. Why will God call himself his own father?

Jesus is a God
While He has a father Elohim also a God
Lemme not talk say more than that, just know that Jesus is God's son, but he is also a God

The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130:22–23).
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are His children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord (in small capitals), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done by God were actually done by the Lord (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but we know that it was actually the Lord (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1:3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through His Spirit), mankind has a special relationship to Him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in His image, whereas all other things are but the work of His hands (Acts 17:28–29).
The God of the scriptures is a holy being. Man is commanded to be holy because God is holy (Lev. 11:44–45; 19:2). God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed or remain forever unknown (Mosiah 4:9). God first revealed Himself to Adam (Moses 5–6) and has repeatedly made Himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. The present translation of John 1:18 and 1 Jn. 4:12 is misleading, for these say that no man has ever seen God. However, the scriptures state that there have been many who have seen Him. The JST corrects these items to show that no one has seen God except through faith and also that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God (JST John 1:19 [Appendix or John 1:18 note c]; JST 1 Jn. 4:12 [1 Jn. 4:12 note a]). God the Father and His Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16–17), the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–, to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56),.
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family, as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.

Mhen!!! I understand EVERYTHING you wrote up there. You believe in the trinity. hmm... I should go and make more research on some of the matters you touched. Although, I still don't understand when u said that some ppl av seen God. Do u mean spirit ppl or some human beings? Apart from Moses seeing God's back, which other occasion did someone see God?

Mathicks:
lmao. Muslim folks will come and eat you up now.

LOL, these NL Muslims eat NL Christians for breakfast.

briantext:
I have many bible evidence but it's just that I'm not good at typing long passages

. You don't need to. Just type the verses